Anti-Americanism is The New Racism

Post-9/11 Era Forum

I thought with all the lovely posts by our resident EU and Canadian Socialists of late, that we should examine the zeitgeist of the agenda they seek to cram down our throats every time they post.

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(Fair Use) For Discussion Purposes Only.

Anti-Americanism Is Racist Envy
Paul Johnson, 07.21.03

Anti-Americanism is the prevailing disease of intellectuals today. Like other diseases, it doesn't have to be logical or rational. But, like other diseases, it has a syndrome--a concurrent set of underlying symptoms that are also causes.

• First, an unadmitted contempt for democracy. The U.S. is the world's most successful democracy. The right of voters to elect more than 80,000 public officials, the length and thoroughness of electoral campaigns, the pervasiveness of the media and the almost daily reports by opinion polls ensure that government and electorate do not diverge for long and that Washington generally reflects the majority opinion in its actions.

It is this feature that intellectuals--especially in Europe--find embittering. They know they must genuflect to democracy as a system. They cannot openly admit that an entire people--especially one comprising nearly 300 million, who enjoy all the freedoms--can be mistaken. But in their hearts these intellectuals do not accept the principle of one person, one vote. They scornfully, if privately, reject the notion that a farmer in Kansas, a miner in Pennsylvania or an auto assembler in Michigan can carry as much social and moral weight as they do. In fact, they have a special derogatory word for anyone who acts on this assumption: "populist." A populist is someone who accepts the people's verdict, even--and especially--when it runs counter to the intellectual consensus (as with capital punishment, for example). In the jargon of intellectual persiflage, populism is almost as bad as fascism--indeed, it's a step toward it. Hence, the argument goes, the U.S. is not so much an "educated democracy" as it is a media-swayed and interest-group-controlled populist regime.

The truth is, on the European Continent there is little experience of working democracy. Italy and Germany have had democracy only since the late 1940s; Spain, since the 1960s. France is not a democracy; it is a republic run by bureaucratic and party elites, whose errors are dealt with by strikes, street riots and blockades instead of by votes. Elements of the French system are being imposed throughout the EU, even in countries such as Denmark and Sweden that have long practiced democracy with success. In a French-style pseudodemocracy, intellectuals have considerable influence, at both government and street levels. In a true democracy, intellectuals are no more powerful than their arguments.

• Second, anti-Americanism is a function of cultural racism. An astonishingly high proportion of European elites know very little about U.S. history or culture and even deny that they have a separate existence apart from their European roots. It is strange that those seeking to bring about a European federal state or union have at no stage sought to study the lessons Americans learned during the creation of the U.S. in the 1780s. After all, the U.S. Constitution (suitably amended) has lasted for more than 200 years, and within its framework the country has emerged as the richest and most powerful society in world history. You might think, therefore, that European elites would seek to learn something from such a successful process. Not at all: The view is that sophisticated, civilized Europe has nothing to learn from "adolescent" America. What these Euro-elites particularly abhor is the way in which the framers of the Constitution made every effort to involve the population through the process of public debates, town meetings and ratification votes--and this at a time when Europe was still governed (for the most part) by the absolute sovereigns of the ancien régime.

This cultural racism is particularly directed at the supposedly "know-nothing" President George W. Bush and his "gung ho" Texas background. The European intelligentsia gets its notion of America chiefly from Hollywood, TV soaps like Dallas and fiction. Few of them have any experience of America, outside of three or four big cities. Middle America is unexplored territory. The fact that the U.S. has proved a highly efficient crucible for melding different peoples into a human sum greater than its constituent parts is seen as a misfortune in Europe because it produces a cultural stew that lacks purity of any kind and is therefore at the mercy of commercial forces.

• Third, European elites tend to look at Americans as a subcivilized mass, whose function is to be obedient consumers in a system run by big business. The role of competition in U.S. economic life--and in every other aspect of life--is ignored, because competition is something Continental Europeans like to keep to a minimum and under careful control.

Although Americans are seen as highly materialistic consumers, they are also despised and feared for their spiritual interests, their participation in religious worship and their subscription to creeds of morality. Europeans see no inconsistency in their condemnation of the U.S. for being at one and the same time paganly unethical and morally zealous.

The truth is, any accusation that comes to hand is used without scruple by the Old World intelligentsia. Anti-Americanism is factually absurd, contradictory, racist, crude, childish, self-defeating and, at bottom, nonsensical. It is based on the powerful but irrational impulse of envy--an envy of American wealth, power, success and determination. It is an envy made all the more poisonous because of a fearful European conviction that America's strength is rising while Europe's is falling.

http://www.forbes.com/global/2003/0721/017.html

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Now before the resident Elitists go beserk in ridiculing the author's remarks - I will succinctly and clearly state BEFORE the statements regarding democracy are met with the usual 2000 Election mantras and comments about the UN/Iraq debacle - America is not a DEMOCRACY - it is a Representative Republic with a DEMOCRATIC form of electing government officials. Pure democracy is MOBOCRACY - and if such governance existed in America - Slavery could still be an institution.

America is a Free Market, Capitalist, Representative Republic forged by ordinary peopel that pulled themselves up by the bootstraps and kicked ass to get where we are.

And the Euro/Socialist Elite hate us with every fiber of their being. You will see evidence of this in their following rebuttals.

America is not 'A' race with a culture.
I'd say this was more Anti-Social or Anti-Democratic than Anti-culture. Every European country has adopted to an extent, acceptance to American Culture. Food, clothing, music, LANGUAGE are just a few.

I beg to differ USA.

America does have a distinct culture. As with all dominant cultures that have graced the top-spot in world influence - the cultural aspects are adopted by much of the world ala the Greeks and Romans - so as to share in the prosperity and wealth these cultures express, and to do business in like-manner.

Emulating dominant leadership and culture is a trait well reknowned throughout history.

Resentment of dominant leadership and culture is also a trait that is becomes well-known throughout history, and like the Roman and Greek Republics before her - America is in the same boat.

The truth is, on the European Continent there is little experience of working democracy.
It is interesting how, even if in other parts of the article one can read about "Europe" or "European elite", here there is the distinction between European Continent and a non-Continental Europe
which is supposed to be made mostly by UK and Ireland, but they are in Europe, aren't they? So, i feel the need of a better definition of Europe.
Again: "France IS NOT A democracy"... while "Denmark and Sweden HAVE LONG PRACTICED democracy". Sure, DK and SWE are monarchies. Thus i feel the need of a better definition of Democracy.
The European intelligentsia gets its notion of America chiefly from Hollywood, TV soaps like Dallas and fiction. Few of them have any experience of America, outside of three or four big cities.
Who are this European Elite/intelligentsia? The european guys watching tv, or the european businessmen, researchers, doctors and students (many of them traveling to/from the USA)?
This description of the "european elite" is not too far from the description of the typical american "populist" usually given by racists, anti-american europeans.
Thus, this article tastes of anti-europeanism just like some articles taste of anti-americanism, and therefore i believe it is not less racist than them.

@invar

what you can't or don't want to understand is: in my case -and it's valid for a lot of people -, it's anti-US gov ........ not anti-americanism ....
now if you can't make the diff between both, sorry .....

I don't like stupid, brain washed, racists, idiots people ... American, Belgian, British, Chinese, Russian, ....any nationalities

Being anti-bush = leftist, anti-american ?
Being anti-Second Gulf war = anti-american ?
Being against lies = idiots because it's not lies but truth, anti-american ?
.....
I call the guy thinking like that: stupid, brain washed, racists, idiots, ..... and add all the stars you want after that sentence

I have to contradict some of your assumptions. You talk of Greek and Roman culture as if they were distinct, but Roman culture was the result of a mix of Greek and Ethrurian cultures.

That's not a contradiction at all. The Romans borrowed and were heavily influenced by the Greek Culture. Combining their own unique cultural aspects which is not unlike America's rich and diverse culture which is a mixture of many ethnic immigrant cultures mixed within the dominant Anglo mindset and purpose of our nation.

-The Greek culture - There wasn't a unique greek culture. e.g., The Spartan culture was very different from the Athenian one.

In general.

You're splitting hairs, picking nits. Texas culture is remarkably different than New Hampshire culture - yet they are both of a larger American culture that dominates all of us and made us ONE NATION.

Finally, i think we should not forget that other "dominant" cultures in history were the Islamic and Chinese ones. Unfortunately these are often forgotten( maybe because they use different alphabets?).

Perhaps, but the Islamic and Asian cultures were by-in-large established by brute force, conquest and conversion of the existing culture into theirs, or the extermination of differing cultures anethema to their religious doctrines.

There was little for the rest of the world to emulate unless it too had dominating armies and a zeal for conquest and subjugation with little tolerance for opposing culture and beliefs.

nowar - it is going to be a delight to drive you absolutely nuts beyond what you already are. I think you will be my new pet project.

what you can't or don't want to understand is: in my case -and it's valid for a lot of people -, it's anti-US gov ........ not anti-americanism ....
now if you can't make the diff between both, sorry .....


I read your Agenda's articles, talking points and arguments. I read and understand the politcal agenda you people are waging.

It is decidedly Anti-American as it completely opposes the principles the American Republic was founded, therefore Anti-American.


Being anti-bush = leftist, anti-american ?

For the most part.

Being anti-Second Gulf war = anti-american ?

Except for a very small minority of those who hate any kind of war - YES. The groups opposing the war were funded, organized and were comprised of Anti-American, Pro Socialist/Communist groups.

Being against lies = idiots because it's not lies but truth, anti-american ?

Nothing you people have charged Bush with can be construed as a lie in my estimation.

Funny how you Idgits created all kinds of excuses and parsings to clear Bill Clinton of boldfaced lies - yet not a peep did I hear from you people about slamming Clinton for lying. You people are not interested in the truth - you are selective, you are interested in promoting and installing your political Agenda - AND THAT IS ALL.

I call the guy thinking like that: stupid, brain washed, racists, idiots, ..... and add all the stars you want after that sentence

No problem. It's what we've come to expect from you people because it is all you are capable of doing.

Come on lets get thing in perspective if being anti US government policy is racist the in theory most americans would be racist towards the French because they are aginst the French policy of vetoing the war forget why they vetoed it was the policy.
I would never be racist to the US I myself have been victimised because of my nationality and I know it hurts but try toget things in perspective I did find it amazing though that people only complained about this after the war had started ddo you maybe think ther is the slightest chance that that is waht the fuss is about

Sounds like how Roman Empire has been built too...

European culture is remarkabley similar on this precept: of Nobles and Elites running the show while the 'little people' live their lives by the leave of government or others. It is why Socialism is so easy to live under and implement there, and why most of the governments in Europe are Socialist Democracies if not in name, then practice.

European peoples will never give away their sovereignity, so the attempt to draw Europe as a nation opposing to USA will fail

You might want to tell the French and the blowhards that spoke during the Convention that. They seem to think the need to form a Fortress Europe to counter and oppose the U.S. is the single-most important thing they can do to save the planet.

since Europe will always be a federation based on economy, and not much more.

Logically I would like to agree with that statement, Europe is like a mixture of iron and clay atempting to make a single sculpture, but scripturally and prophetically Europe WILL become a powerful entity unmatched in all the world but China.

Invar can we disregard the citizens of Europe for a moment because you have your vies on them and I have mine and we are never going ro see eye to eye on the racism thing.
What about the EU as a political body do you think it is not better for the EU and US to work more closely together in the future as it would at the least be economically viable for both parties to have a relationship, the idea of a fortress Europe is not waht all EU members want particualry the British and Irish.

Well Lodgebo,

Prophetically speaking, neither Britain, Ireland or Scotland is going to remain in the EU once the full-blown intention and reality of what the EU has constructed for itself becomes known among my Anglican brethren. Specifically the politcal demands for complete Sovereign surrender to Brussels for the Central Planners there to implement EU policy - both political as well as economic.

The EU is an iron/clay mix that will one day fulfill it's long-held goal of world leadership and power, despite the fragile cohesion that put them together.

And for now, the cohesion and common glue is anger at America and the desire to surplant it in world dominance.

You didnt reall anser my question but fair enough.
But I think that you will find that we will stay in the EU no matter waht because in some cases it has benifited us, just a small point I dont know if you are aware or not but Scotland hs never ben in the EU as an independant we have devolved government but are still represented by westminster in europe.
I dont really believe the world domination thing yeah the EU is getting biggger and if you are right and it is going to become the world superpower and we are ruled by them fair enough I will still be Scottish and I will still have my own culture and history etc but the laws will be made in Brussels not Holyrood better to be in than out.
The whole American thing do you really believe that EU countries are plotting against you to put you in your place or something? overall the US doesnt come off very good in the 21st century in your eyes Youve got all the governments and citizens of Europe against you, the middle east countries decalring Jihad and terorists threating to blow you up ( dont take that to serious its just a joke).
In all honesty I personaaly believe that the EU and US working together would be a strong partnership that both could beniift from in some way, what do you think do you think that the US andf EU should at least try to work together ?

"And for now, the cohesion and common glue is anger at America and the desire to surplant it in world dominance."

Wow, now that about says it all. I knew France and Germany had a different agenda. This explains it. Germany has already started by buying Chrysler. Watch out folks, the invasion has started....

You didnt reall anser my question but fair enough.

Whether the U.S. & EU should work together?

Differing agendas make that difficult if not impossible. The EU wants to REPLACE American dominance and surplant it with it's own. How are two entities going to work together if each of them wants to run the show 'their way'?

The EU no longer is content to be within America's shadow. The War in Europe is forgotten, and the forging ahead of a new superpower is all that is on their minds. They resent America, they always have, but the WWII population had a character that acknowledged gratitude - not only for their liberation - but our rebuilding and defense of them against the Soviets. Now all that is forgotten as theat generation is dwindling and they have shown not only their utter contempt for us - but their willingness to work behind our backs with our enemies and behind the scenes to ensure America's failure.

CAN the EU and US work together? I'm sure the EU hand that holds out an offer with the knife in the other will be well received by my naive countrymen and leadership. I'm sure if the common goal is a world government with the EU or UN at the head and center - I'm sure the Leftists and Democrats in America will be only too quick to shake hands and subjugate us to their Authority.

But I think that you will find that we will stay in the EU no matter waht

I think 'absorbed' will be a better description.


I dont really believe the world domination thing

Neither did Neville Chamberalin about Hitler either.

yeah the EU is getting biggger and if you are right and it is going to become the world superpower and we are ruled by them fair enough

Another willing slave. Find your independent roots man! Watch Braveheart again if you need a little inspiration!

I will still be Scottish and I will still have my own culture and history etc but the laws will be made in Brussels

Spoken like a true Bruce. Trade sovereignty and independence for the promise of lands and title, culture and history?

Sad.

The whole American thing do you really believe that EU countries are plotting against you to put you in your place or something?

I've read their commentaries, heard the speeches from the floor in Brussels and the UN and observed their actions.

YES. The Anti-American agenda is what is helping to steamroll what otherwise would have been another pitched politcal battle for their Constitution. Europe for once now has a single mindset and purpose to hold it together and forge the desired destiny; checkmate to America.

overall the US doesnt come off very good in the 21st century in your eyes

In my eyes? In my eyes, I will take America and all her shortcomings and defects before I would even CONSIDER partaking of the goodness of any other nation on earth.

Youve got all the governments and citizens of Europe against you, the middle east countries decalring Jihad and terorists threating to blow you up

This is what happens when you put down the big stick and capitualte to UN policy and ignore the world's threats for nearly a decade.

Once you reassert yourself after getting your nose bloodied, the rest of the block no longer fears or respects you, and they naturally resent you taking charge again after going on vacation and letting them make their own plans on how to manage the block.


In all honesty I personaaly believe that the EU and US working together would be a strong partnership that both could beniift from in some way,

Sounds good on the surface, but that is NOT the agenda of the EU. The EU wants to go it's own way and call it's own shots - CONTRARY to American policy and security. The economic and trade practices of the EU towards America in the last 5 years ALONE are testament to the incredible hostility and punative measures the EU takes against us.

what do you think do you think that the US andf EU should at least try to work together ?

I'm sure the Leftist Democrats and "new Tone" Republicans will be sure to sell America's sovereignty and interests out further to the UN/EU and our enemies.

Invar: You might want to tell the French and the blowhards that spoke during the Convention that. They seem to think the need to form a Fortress Europe to counter and oppose the U.S. is the single-most important thing they can do to save the planet.
I know France and French people well, since i often go there and i'm actually of French origins. I have to say that French and Americans have similar concepts of pride, freedom, and nation. I can assure you that the avg Frenchman don't care at all about this. Never, i say never, speaking with a french has ever turned out to be anti-american. They are (or feel to be, since many comes from outside France) all simply French and proud to be that, just like you are American and you're proud to be. Indeed, French people have always loved American people. Surely more than Italian people do.

You say: The EU no longer is content to be within America's shadow.
Well, many want to stay within America's shadow, to keep the benefits of such a relationship. But many others feel that being considered at your same level, and not as a subsidiary of old stupid socialists traitors that should be kept under control, would be better. You should think what's happening since the fall of Berlin's wall ('89): Europe during the cold war was just like a cheeseburger (an example that you should know well... ) , a tiny piece of meat (and cheese) between two huge slices of bread. Now one of that slices does not exist more, but the other wants to get bigger and close the meat inside him like a big mexican taco. This is the feeling of europeans. I can see that nothing has changed since that time in the way America acts, you still do the same things you've done before. But we perceive them in a different way. And therefore you feel this anti-americanism. I don't know if this is really anti-americanism.

If this was anti-americanism, how would you call the arab feelings? (Every time i spoke with an arab he always turned out to be anti-american. Don't matter if he's rich, poor, if he's a leader of a shipping company or he's a student, if he comes from Lebanon or Morocco. They hate you so deeply that i cannot understand why.)

Invar: Europe for once now has a single mindset

If this will happen, i will be REALLY surprised!!!
Actually, the "central control" is not so tight. National governments propose laws to the Brussels, and Brussels may accept or not these proposals and give them away to other member states. Member states don't always fulfill to these proposals, particularly if these proposals came from a rival state (I was thinking about wine and France/Italy). There's a such rivalry between member states, that many think that "European Union" should be changed into "European Dis-union"...

What I meant Invar is that there are economic beniifts of working together like more trade (physical and knowledgable) could be benificial to both countries.
I alos meant it is better to try and resolve some problems rather than having fortress Europe and Fortress US barracading themselves in and looking suspiciuously at each other.
No one forgets what the US helped us with in WW" and the cold war but that is the past and like you said we are all working under diffrent agendas now.
I dont believe absord at all but if you are talking about a common laws being put on us for example it might no be that bad and plus we get a lot more freedom of mopvement from being in.
Chamberlin was taken in to easy his only flaw was believing Hitler and his desperation to avoid bloodshed.
I aint no slave and if you think braveheart was factual then youl believe anything so waht would I be if not a Scot in an EU continent.
Ideas are diffrent know and Bruce will also be rembered for giving the English a hiding at bannockburn as well you know still rembering his nationality and culture.
So where do you stand on the UK iue Bush counts Blair as his closest a friend but at the same time Blair is pushing for the UK to get more European
the US thing was a bit of as bad joke and I wasnt saying that i was glad that all this was happening to the US I would love for the US and EU to get along cos I like the people and the country and I wouldnt want to see you or us weakend in anyway
when you talk about the trade thing do you mean like the banana wars. why shouldnt tne EU call its own shots if thats what members want?
if you had to work wit either the un or eu who would you pick, just out of intrest, thats to all people on this thread

I can assure you that the avg Frenchman don't care at all about this.

We're not talking about the 'average' Frenchman. We're talking about their Elites and their Leadership, the ones actually running the country and making the decisions in the EU Parliment.

Never, i say never, speaking with a french has ever turned out to be anti-american.

Your circle of French acquaintances must be small. Parisians are particularly hostile to Americans (as folks I know who returned there from vacation recently can attest). Their papers, their protests and their people online in discussion forums are particularly hateful of things American. It is less pronounced in areas like Normandy and the countrysides - but even in Normandy - they have desecrated the graves of UK Soldiers there and wrote "Bury your trash elsewhere, we don't want it". These graves of course, belonging to those whom died in the process of liberating the French. Now they are considered trash.

Indeed, French people have always loved American people. Surely more than Italian people do.

They love our money and nothing more. There is more warmth from Italians of late than from France.

But many others feel that being considered at your same level, and not as a subsidiary of old stupid socialists traitors that should be kept under control, would be better.

America still remembers what happens when Europe is left to itself and allowed to aspire to visions of world leadership.

Usually results in a major-to-world war.

I can see that nothing has changed since that time in the way America acts, you still do the same things you've done before. But we perceive them in a different way. And therefore you feel this anti-americanism. I don't know if this is really anti-americanism.

Semantics. It's pure resentment. Europe has a goal of superpowerdom and global leadership - in some respects, it always has. The resentment is borne of a manifest destiny that Europe has been striving to recapture since it lost that leadership to the British Colonial Empire - and due to the fact that America had a hands-off and deferring foreign policy during the 8 years of the Clinton regime. With little-to-no global leadership from America - Europe began to fill the void, and when Bush took office and reasserted our foreign policy - the anger of the Elite Leadership in Europe fanned the flames of resentment.

Couching and promoting the Anti-war movement has given Europe a single mindset that they did not posess before - a common foe.

If this was anti-americanism, how would you call the arab feelings?

One is religious, one is Political.

Islam has conveneintly combined resentment of American Leadership policy - with religious doctrine.

As infidels with power and influence, we are naturally a Great Satan that must be destroyed. It is a mindset taught from an early age.

Arab values are not alike with American or Western values, so things like Trade, money and freindship are not on a likeminded par.

Americans sadly STILL refuse to understand this. They Arabs do not value life, culture or diversity as we do. They are of a Tribal/Clan mindset. They are drawn to raw power, control and conversion into a single Theocratic principle that governs all - with a monarchist-form of Authority such as an Ayatollah, an Imam or a Dictator.

With such, compromise with Western values is seen as sacriledge, which is the reason Bin Laden gives for his war on the House of Saud.

What I meant Invar is that there are economic beniifts of working together like more trade (physical and knowledgable) could be benificial to both countries.

A pipe dream. Europe has been protectionist in it's trade practices for well over a decade. It is only getting worse, not better.

I alos meant it is better to try and resolve some problems rather than having fortress Europe and Fortress US barracading themselves in and looking suspiciuously at each other.

But that is the reality. The resentment Europe has for American leadership in the world is palpable to even the most casual American observer who gets his news from Tom Brokaw once a night.

I doubt Americans are going to soon forget the subterfuge that took place with France and Germany before we went into Iraq again. Courting our Allies and other nations to actively oppose our demand that Sadaam immediately comply with the terms of the UN Resolutions after the reality of 9/11 and Jihad (which Sadaam also declared on us) opened our eyes.

I doubt America will ever look on Old Europe without suspicion again. I think by-in-large, many Americans now view Old Europe on the same Par as we do with Russia. We want to be friends - but we just don't trust them.

No one forgets what the US helped us with in WW" and the cold war but that is the past

So much so that now the graves of British soldiers that died there in Europe are defaced.

You were saying about "no one forgets"?

and like you said we are all working under diffrent agendas now.

Yes. Recipe for disaster.

Chamberlin was taken in to easy his only flaw was believing Hitler and his desperation to avoid bloodshed.

Sound familliar doesn't it?

Those that forget history, are doomed to repeat it.

This is why America went ahead to disarm Sadaam by force - without your blessing.

I aint no slave and if you think braveheart was factual then youl believe anything so waht would I be if not a Scot in an EU continent.

Well, aside from the Battle of Stirling Bridge without the bridge, and a few licensed liberties taken for the film - did not William Wallace light the fire that finally ignited the ability of Scots to throw off the yoke of the British Crown and declare independence?

Now of course you will still be a Scot in the new EU Superstate - you will be the State of Scotland, subject to the Central Government in Brussels, and if the leadership there decides the Scots don't deserve or pay enough, or abide by certain laws that favor another state over you Scots, oh well. I guess you'll be content to hear Wallace's bones roll around in the grave.


So where do you stand on the UK iue Bush counts Blair as his closest a friend but at the same time Blair is pushing for the UK to get more European

Blair is Labour, his politics are Socialist - and thus has more in common with the EU planners than with Bush and America. But Blair and the UK is going to rue the day they asceded anything to Brussels, and Lady Thatchers warnings about the EU are going to haunt you when you suffer.

I would love for the US and EU to get along cos I like the people and the country and I wouldnt want to see you or us weakend in anyway

But THAT is the agenda of the EU. Two entities attempting to lead the world to further their interests when they oppose one another are going to come into conflict.

The EU already has the advanage because they already view America as an out-of-control enemy. America and Britain are still mistakenly assuming the EU is on our side and that they remain allies.

why shouldnt tne EU call its own shots if thats what members want?

Like I said, when the EU wants to call the shots and they conflict with American interests, we are going to have conflict.

if you had to work wit either the un or eu who would you pick, just out of intrest, thats to all people on this thread

Neither, they are almost one and the same. It was the EU and old Europe that was pulling the strings in the UN to stall, delay and defer any enforcement of Resolutions on Iraq. Because as I've stated before, France, Germany and Russia had business contracts with Sadaam's regime.

I do understand what you are saying Invar but it sounds to me as if you wouldnt even try to work with the EU not one bit remember the saying nothing ventured nothing gained.
I do agree wih you desecrating war graves of any country is wrong and hopefully the culprits will be caught but unless Im wrong either in France or belgium graves wer seatroyed by what was beleived to be combat 13 memebers not anti war groups/
You also said to another member about the attitudes in France to America well im pretty sure it goes th other way as well such as bereatin bastille day in some sections, calling French frie freedom fries and in the confederations cup US fans boing the french team when they werent even playing each other Im not turning it around on you or your country it does go both ways though snd if each government could start resolving thier diffrences it might set a better example to the public/
And the braveheart thing there areother mistakes suchn as Wallace going with the Princess of Wales would never happen plus if you watch crefully you can see a van going past during the battle of Stirling bridge
Mind you I dont think you and me will ever see eye to eye on this how many hreads is the about 10 we disagree on

Once again DaveDom exhibits that which is easily dispatched as Divertus Ad Infinitum:

Firstly we had Iraq not complying with 17 UN resolutions. This used despite worldwide knowledge that Isreal refuses to abide by its own 60 or so UN resolutions.

We're talking Iraq, NOT Israel. Israel has posed no threat to the Western World....NONE. She hasn't invaded another sovereign nation, she hasn't brandished nukes at us, or threatened our civillians with holy war. Your non-sequiter is not applicable.

But if you insist on playing that game, I will note that You people applauded the U.S. and UN invasion of Kosovo to get Milosevic because it was Leftists that spearheaded that operation and turned the NATO Charter on it's head, yet Sadaam was far more dangerous and had commited greater genocide than Slobodan had ever dreamed of. Your double-standard is showing again.

Once again you are comparing Saddam Hussein's Iraq and Adolf Hitler's Germany. Even Bush and Blair would have thought such subterfuge utterly ridiculous.

I'm sure Neville Chamberlain's ghost would say the same thing.

America wasn't going to wait and find out whether or not Sadaam would rise to fulfil his stated destiny as the modern Nebuchadnezzar.


it sounds to me as if you wouldnt even try to work with the EU not one bit remember the saying nothing ventured nothing gained.

We've seen how the EU has been operating of late in regards to American policy. We also have years of trade dealings and protectionist examples in dealing with the EU.

As I said, after this Iraq debacle with Old European allies, America has as much trust in the EU as it does Russia right now.

calling French frie freedom fries and in the confederations cup US fans boing the french team when they werent even playing each other

The RESULT of ACTIONS taken by the French to undermine American policy and work AGAINST us in favor of Sadaam. The American boycott and attitude of everything French is REACTIVE to what they have been doing over the last several years behind our backs. The French have revealed their contempt for us long before America had ANY hostile feelings towards France.

Mind you I dont think you and me will ever see eye to eye on this how many hreads is the about 10 we disagree on

I don't expect to change your mind or anyone else's here. Minds are made-up.

I'm simply expressing mine, and combating yours in the process, I have no desire to make freinds or win converts. I'm simply debating - not trying to win popularity votes. I can care less what others think about me or my positions, I express them without apology.

Such is my nature.

Legend73 Writes:

Man, don't you think that WW2 and the cold war may have deeply changed us?

Old Europeans?

No.

WWI didn't change them, or remind them of the history that brought on WWII.

I think Eastern Europeans that sided with us during the Iraq war ARE changed in the aspect that THEY REMEMBER what living under a totalitarian regime is like.

The EU has visions of grandeur of a United Federation of Europe to rival the U.S., and forgets the lessons of their past whenever that ambition rises to the surface.

Little-to-no global leadership during the Clinton era? I cannot understand how you can say that.

Clinton deferred all decisions regarding foreign policy to the UN and EU. He consulted them FIRST, before making decisions.

Maybe you're forgetting Yugoslavia and Kosovo.

Both UN and NATO operations, with America taking sides in a civil war with MUSLIMS, which is and was UN policy.

The only remarkable thing is that there was an underestimation of the Muslim terrorism threath.

No, Clinton IGNORED that threat deliberately, either at the behest of the EU/UN or for his own twisted political ambitions.

I remind you that he did NOTHING after the Khobar Towers bombing, NOTHING after the U.S.S. Cole attack, and lobbed some cruise missiles into the deserts after our embassies were bombed in Africa.

The common foe is not America, it is global terrorism.

You might want to tell the French and our resident rabid Socialists here that. They think otherwise.

Invar said:I think Eastern Europeans that sided with us during the Iraq war ARE changed in the aspect that THEY REMEMBER what living under a totalitarian regime is like.

The EU has visions of grandeur of a United Federation of Europe to rival the U.S., and forgets the lessons of their past whenever that ambition rises to the surface.

Then why are those Eastern Europeans willing to join that totalitarian soviet-style EU regime? Really, i don't understand this rivalry, i believe it is based mostly on old prejudices between French and American people.
Japan itself had an economic boost years ago, but nobody looked at them as they were planning the conquer of the world. Weren't they enemies during WW2? Why should they have learned things that we didn't? Just because you dropped two A-bombs over their heads?

Invar about the french Us thing Im not all that bothred about how you feel about each other all I was asking is do you agree that the dislike/ hstred goes both ways regardless of who started it?

As far as what the french think, when I hear INVAR talking as an expert on the subject, i cannot but laugh! (especially the part where he cites his sources : ...friends coming back from a vacation in Paris..). Please !!!!!!!
Is there an end to the ridicule?
This is just feeding once again the commonly known thing about americans : their total absence of knowledge and curiosity of other cultures. I guess that comes from the moto that americans are fed from an earlier age that their country is the best. The next jump in logic is assuming that no other country deserves attention...unless it poses a threat.
If you knew more about other people's culture your foreign policy would be a lot more efficient and i bet you would receive the gratitude that your are claiming for when you deserve it.

"Parisian rude to your american friends"...You gotta be kidding, if you knew anything about parisians, you would know that they are rude to their own compatriots and that in no way they represent the average french.
I think it would be better to stick to political and historical facts here, the rest being pure idiotic speculations...

Oh look, more of the Absurd from DaveDom:

Isreal has posed no threat to the western world??? Really?

Really.

And the fact that much of the last four decades of terrorism has been related to the palastinian issue is to you a "Divertus Ad Infinitum".

Yes. Your suggestion that Israel's conflict with the Palestinians is the same as Israel threatening the West with terrorism is laughable and patently absurd!.

Also Al Quida......Therefore your idea that Israel and America's support of Isreal is not a threat to the West is nonsense.

And again, your prescription like it is with all Leftists, is for America to cowtow to rogue madmen. Your idea is insane. It's like suggesting that America SHOULD have stopped supporting Britain because it upset the IRA!!!!

Neville Chamberlain, Adolf Hiltler, WWII = a similar situation in Iraq?? This is the most laughable argument you insist on using.

To you, of course it is. The similarities are willfully ignored and you scoff at such a comparison because it doesn't fit into your agenda.

And lets not forget that during this 12 years he was bombed and starved and his people suffered sanctions that caused the deaths of over half a million Iraqis.

Right, Sadaam sure looked like he and his regime were 'starving'.

As usual, you people ignore Sadaam's actions that caused his own people's suffering in order to ONCE AGAIN apply onus on AMERICA that all the suffering was caused by the Great Satan; the United States!

You people are a frigging broken record. Find a new tune to play, find a new playbook - this one is old, worn-out, disproven and utterly absurd in the face of facts.

Now tell me when exactly during the last 12 years was Saddam a similar threat to Adolf Hitler?

Read the history books, it's all there. But since your view and perception is an unshaken belief that Sadaam was unjustly wronged and benign, the time you would spend would be a complete waste.

As a justification for the war

UN687 was the justifaction for war.

Sadaam remained in violation of it. Period. end of sentence.

Which people applauded the invasion of Kosovo?

You Leftists. Nary a word of "unjust war", "Illegal Invasion", "Unilateral Attack". It was celebrated as a rousing success of world cooperation, with no protests in Paris, no nightly slams of Clinton on the BBC and CNN for an "aggessive policy" etc.

DESPITE the fact that there was no UN Resolution Authorizing use of force, DESPITE turning the NATO Charter on it's head and utilizing a defensive Alliance for aggessive purposes.

Instead we were treated to comparisons of Milosevic to Hitler and the Holocaust "Ethnic cleansing" and so on as justification for intervention in a civil war.

A double standard you people posess.

You think you can talk about double standards? Well try and remember all the monsters that the USA has helped into power

Right, once again you people trumpet the mantra that "ONLY America creates monsters and madmen" because your entire agenda and politics exist on the belief that America is the sole source and cause of all the world's woes.

Puts you people on the same plane of Soviet Communist doctrine as far as I'm concerned. They are both the same.


Foushou:

Here's the deal, Americans got to hear and watch Chirac's and DeVillepin's myriad speeches, denouncements and outright hostility of America.

We witnessed their politcal efforts to thwart and embarrass us in the SC by traversing the globe courting nations into siding against our demand that Sadaam be forced to comply with existing UN Resolutions and not play stupid hide and seek games that Sadaam had been playing for 12 years.

We learned of French and Russian oil contracts pending with Sadaam's regime.

We watched news of grave desecrations, saw your protests in Paris and watched effigies of Uncle Sam and Bush burned by screaming Frenchmen.

America will never forget those things...EVER, which is why we no longer trust, nor want freindship with France.

INVAR, you say America will never forget those things; I think you mean YOU will never forget those things....And I certainly would not expect you too, just as I would not expect you to forget that you armed Sadam and Bin laden, (and please don't say as in another post that "..the US, naively, did not know that the jihadist did not like infidels and were going to turn against you..."because that makes your intelligence service look very stupid, and if that is true, then you really should avoid coming out of your territory. You just don't have the skills, and you make the world a very unsafe place.

To continue on a different point that might sadden you
I met an american in NY before the war who told me : " I am so proud of the French...", and that just one on an very long list of americans that have expressed that thay did not side with your government.

As for the oil contracts please save that argument for first grade schoolers....You know as well as I do that american history is filled with example of making economical interests coincide with militaristic ones. I know you like to portray a very naive and morally good America, always trying to aid the orphan and the widow. Unfortunatly it is far from being so. Maybe just like with france, the government and the people do not always see eye to eye????? I live in the US, and I believe that most of the people here are very decent. Unfortunetly they are played upon that very quality by what I believe to be a government bought by corporations. (halliberton....etc)

INVAR, you say America will never forget those things; I think you mean YOU will never forget those things

No, I mean AMERICA will never forget those things. We have Leno and Letterman slamming the French nightly, we have articles and oped pieces in our magazines and papers denouncing things French. Our 4th of July festivals were smitten with 'Freedom Fries' and "Liberty bread'.

No. Middle America definitley is not going to forget what the French said and did anymore than we will forget 9/11.

just as I would not expect you to forget that you armed Sadam and Bin laden

Same tired old argument from you people.

because that makes your intelligence service look very stupid

Coming from someone who uphold's France's stellar record of Intel ops ("Hitler who? No problem, the guy is a little paranoid of Jews but we have nothing to worry about") - I'll take your point as a compliment.

You just don't have the skills, and you make the world a very unsafe place.

Unsafe for terrorists and enemies of America - you betcha. America doesn't coddle reknowned madmen and genocidal maniacs like you French do, we just send them to hell.

To continue on a different point that might sadden you
I met an american in NY before the war who told me : " I am so proud of the French...", and that just one on an very long list of americans that have expressed that thay did not side with your government.

Because they are radical Leftists - they belong in France, not America.

As for the oil contracts please save that argument for first grade schoolers

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't know we would have to wait a full year before you could comprehend the argument.

You know as well as I do that american history is filled with example of making economical interests coincide with militaristic ones.

The EU and the French have a 200 year historical headstart of America in making economical interests coincide with militaristic ones.

You folks wrote the history on that score bub.

I know you like to portray a very naive and morally good America, always trying to aid the orphan and the widow. Unfortunatly it is far from being so.

Well, America is about to live up to that oft charge you people constantly make, and close up our wallets and charity when you people cry out for help after a disaster, a coup or a threat. Then you'll get a real reality check of how much America has truly helped the orphan and widow.

I mean look at France now - they're all upset and calling our refusal to buy their wine, their cheese and visit them "silly" and "childish" . They were screaming for us to open our wallets because the "French LOVE Americans!" We no longer believe them. Now we're seeing real French anger set in as their business dries up for lack of any patronage from a people who have gotten tired of all the backstabbing and ridicule the French have dished us.

Soon the rest of our so-called Socialist allies in the UN and EU are going to get a taste of the bitter harvest they've sown with us, just as the French are. Then you people will finally have some truth to back your claims that America doesn't aid the orphan or widow.

When the money and aid and business is no longer there from the world's largest consumer nation - you people will get a true taste of what you currently claim - and I can hear your weeping and gnashing of teeth already.

Maybe just like with france, the government and the people do not always see eye to eye?

Like you have to ask? Oh, I forgot - first grade is NEXT year for you!

I live in the US

How unfortunate for both of us.

and I believe that most of the people here are very decent.

Not according to your compadres posting here and burning effigies of Uncle Sam and Bush in street protests in Paris.

Unfortunetly they are played upon that very quality by what I believe to be a government bought by corporations. (halliberton....etc)

Yes, the MANTRA of the Socialist Left; Corporate Capitalist EEEEEEVIIIIL.

Yes, we know you Lefties hate Capitalism and seek with glee any example to fit your argument that our entire free-enterprise system is wicked and tyrannical.

Thing is bub.....Americans aren't listening or considering you people anymore. We're either laughing at you or ignoring you.

You have a serious persecution complex. I love America people.

Is that before or after you take their money so you have extra bucks to burn effigies of Uncle Sam and Bush on TV?

Racism in Canada,
Canadian Police Killing of Iranian.
Is this racism or retaliation?

Invar slow down take a deep breath and look at who is writig what Dve is from the UK

I think if you look at what I wrote earlier, you will notice I was referring to "Ideological Compadres" posting here and burning effigies of Uncle Sam in Protests.

Regardless if DaveDom is from the UK, his ideology transcends his geography when the movement and agenda he supports engages in the activities we Americans witnessed on the news. We get to hear the same mantras the street protestors chanted repeated here ad infinitum.


as far as talking your dollars are concerned do your homework we have one of the strongest economies in the world and you are still in recession.

Recession yes. We're still hung over from the 'irrational exhuberance' party during the Clinton years that popped our when reality and sound economics finally caught up with the Clintonian idea that we beat the economic business cycle.

INVAR:("Hitler who? No problem, the guy is a little paranoid of Jews but we have nothing to worry about")

The agenda of the Nazis was well known, you may read the manifesto of the NSDAP (may be 1925) and nobody could have misunderstood what was going to happen then in Germany. And everybody was worried, even Mussolini, who first was against Hitler but subsequently joined him in the Rome-Berlin axis, because of the fear Hitler may have attacked Italy. It's quite hard to understood, but Hitler was elected within a democracy. He was not a golpist (like Mussolini itself was).
However, do i have to remember you that U.S. entered the war just two years after, and just because of Pearl Harbor?

foushou,
So what you are saying is that all countries are alike. Each have their own interests around the world and will avert their eyes to achieve their goals agendas.
I agree with this but, why did Canada, France and Germany turn a blind eye to Iraq? Canada, I can understand but, France and Germany also knew what Saddam was doing.
My only regret is that we didn't finish Saddam in 1991.
The fact that America will never forget, goes for a large section of our population and we know what history has wrought. Don't fool yourself.
Patriotism runs deep in America.

Legend73:

Your historical recall is quite correct and accurate to a 'T'.

I was being sarcastic in my Hitler remark, but your recall of Hitler's well-known ambitions prior to '39 actually reinforce my sarcastic quotation of French and European attitudes about him.

USA 1, I respect that patriotism runs deep in america.

What I do not understand is the feeling of betrayal and the belittleling of France...
Why is it so hard to understand that France stood by the USA when Afghanistan was a target because the case was made that the TALIBAN was linked to terrorism.

The case has still not been proved with IRAK! Even if Irak was in breach of the resolutions of the UN, the link to terrorism was never made. It is about international law here, not about moral!!. If it was about morality we would have to consistently interve in ALL cases of governmental abuse in all countries that suffer from it...and it would be impossible.
How do we go about selecting who deserves to be 'LIBERATED" AND WHO DOES NOT??????????Do we count the dead? I think then we should have done something about RWANDA maybe????
That is what I do not understand at all, and maybe I am a "leftist idot" as INVAR puts it, I don't know, but I fail to see the logic in that...

My grand-father volunteered at the age of 17 during the WWI, and at the same age my father volunteered in the RAF during WWII...Patriotism runs deep with the french and we have had our share of wars in the 20th century...some were fought well and some weren't...Americans helped us and we would help them in a blink if they were attacked. Irak in our eyes was not an immediate threat and still has not proved to be so.
The international and civil law embrace the same principle, INNOCENCE BEFORE PROVEN GUILTY.
If we start attacking before having proved our case, then the international order is doomed. It does not matter how strong our suspicions are and how monstruous the regime is, we have to prove our case! (if we want to attack only on the "monstruous" criteria, then we have to attack North Corea, half of South america, China...etc)
I rest my case

What I do not understand is the feeling of betrayal and the belittleling of France...

Because we watched your leaders lobby the UN and the world against us, IN SPITE of clear UN mandates repeatedly violated by a madman who ALSO declared a jihad against us.

Because we heard your politcal leaders compare Bush to Hitler, ridicule the American people for being stupid in electing him, and announcing publicly that America is more dangerous to the world than a thousand Bin Ladens.

Because we watched your French people rally in Paris and burn American flags and effigies of Uncle Sam and Bush while enthusiastically waving Iraq's flag in solidarity with Sadaam.

For those reasons and a whole lot more - America has been betrayed by France and wants nothihng more to do with them except remind ourselves in ridicule and humor - just how malicious and sinister the French were.

Why is it so hard to understand that France stood by the USA when Afghanistan was a target because the case was made that the TALIBAN was linked to terrorism.

Your stand was purely politcal and lukewarm at best. It soon turned into cries of 'aggression', 'imperialism' and shouts of 'occupation' almost as soon as we got there.

Even if Irak was in breach of the resolutions of the UN, the link to terrorism was never made.

And America wasn't going to wait until Chicago or Boston was an expanding white-hot ball of radioactive gas from a just-made Iraqi nuke or poison gas cloud carried by an Al Qaeda delivery boy in order to make that link evident to your satisfaction.

Terrorists are not going to wait, and America and the UN waited for 12 years with Sadaam already.

It is about international law here, not about moral!!.

Screw your precious 'law' when such could result in millions of my countrymen dead or dying from a homicide bombing utilizing gifts from Sadaam.

How do we go about selecting who deserves to be 'LIBERATED" AND WHO DOES NOT??????????

Liberation was an additional reason for our actions. Violation of UN687 and the Cease Fire is all the reason needed.

But that reason was no longer good enough for some Senior members of the UN because of backroom deals made with Sadaam by the French, Germans and Russians.

Do we count the dead? I think then we should have done something about RWANDA maybe????

As always, the UN doesn't act on that which says it demands unless the U.S, spearheads the operation. They pass resolutions and debate it endlessly with no action outside of words while thousands are butchered as they debate and argue.

That is what I do not understand at all, .....but I fail to see the logic in that...

We can tell.

Irak in our eyes was not an immediate threat

Neither was Hitler until he marched troops through your Arch.

and still has not proved to be so.

And like WII, you refuse to acknowledge the threat until it comes marching through your streets - or in this day and age - until there are thousands upon thousands of dead and dying because of an instant detonation on your street.

Pass all the resolutions and provide all the proof you require - not a bit of it will bring back the thousands or millions killed if you are wrong.

The international and civil law embrace the same principle, INNOCENCE BEFORE PROVEN GUILTY.

And in this day and age, millions are dead while you collect samples of incontrovertible but untracable evidence in order to link a nuke or bio blast to those you think attacked you with it.

If we start attacking before having proved our case, then the international order is doomed.

It's already doomed because your jihad pals have already figured out how to use those laws against you in order to circumvent any action you might use to prevent them from unleashing a hellish nightmare of death on you, and to also buy themselves the time they need to develop, hide, transport and detonate such weapons.

It does not matter how strong our suspicions are and how monstruous the regime is, we have to prove our case!

And the evidence you people required would have been a mushroom cloud followed by a taped claim of responsibility.

whatever INVAR.... I do not have any jihad pals, but I bet you will prove me wrong on that one too...

The whole point is that until we can prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Iraq has not had but has nuclear weapons and chemical weapons the notion of an Iraqi made Wmd being dropped on any major european city is pointless.
and at this moment there is nothing to be found.

so until we can find any wmds the major point of the war has not been cleared up just like the laughable 45 minute claim.
There is always the idea I suppose that Sadamm could fund these missions but why would Al Queda go to him if they had Bin Laden.

from what I understand if as you say its alright for the US to break intl law then anyone can break it if they fell threatend if you do then you are setting a very dangerous standard.

Once again Hitler was always seen as a threat ( more sarcasim I assume)

A lot of your arguements here are what ifs invar

What about the evidence that inteligence agencies are meant to gather to prevent these atrocities de just bypass them after the mess that was made over 9/11 and the fact that we ignored them over this war ?

Now Invar let me guess I am nothing more than a lefty anti - american for what i have said right

The whole point is that until we can prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Iraq has nuclear weapons and chemical weapons the notion of an Iraqi made Wmd being dropped on any major european city is pointless.

Until London is vaporized in a blinding white flash moments after a Jihadist in a delivery van pulls up to 10 Downing Street.

But then, I suppose the very idea of that possibility is pointless.

Funny thing is that America scoffed the notion of jumbo jet aircraft full of civillians being used as fuel-air bombs. We thought that idea to be pointless too.

and at this moment there is nothing to be found.

Do nothing, and they will eventually find you.

so until we can find any wmds the major point of the war has not been cleared up

Enforcing UN687 was the major point of the war.

There is always the idea I suppose that Sadamm could fund these missions but why would Al Queda go to him if they had Bin Laden.

Bin Laden didn't have any Nuke or chemical weapons, but stated the urgent need for Islam to have them.

from what I understand if as you say its alright for the US to break intl law

The U.S. never BROKE Int'l law. Sadaam had 17 COUNT 'EM SEVENTEEN Int'l Resolutions that he routinely violated. America did the UN's job, and enforced them because the UN was uneilling to enforce them - which is why it refused to issue a NEW resolution of Force. Such a new Resolution, though desirable for politcal impression, wasn't needed because the Authorization of force WAS ALREADY GIVEN in 1990 and 1991. The cease Fire terms were violated, there was NO SURRENDER signed. Hostilities resumed to FORCE Compliance with the Resolutions.


A lot of your arguements here are what ifs invar

"What if" is the reality of the world in which we now live, as massing armies and ICBMs are no longer signs of impending destruction and catastrophe.

We have proliferated WMDs and men disguised as civillians willing to use them the moment they have the opportunity.

What about the evidence that inteligence agencies are meant to gather to prevent these atrocities de just bypass them after the mess that was made over 9/11 and the fact that we ignored them over this war ?

Intel was ignored all around, and it resulted in 9/11.

The Intel and evidence of Sadaam's weaponry was not only documented by the UN itself, but Sadaam demonstrated his willingness of use on the Kurds and on Iran.

Sadaam declared Jihad on America in December 1998.

Should we continue to ignore the precedent that has been set the last time we ignored a call fo jihad?

Now Invar let me guess I am nothing more than a lefty anti - american for what i have said right

You keep parroting the same charges that the Anti-American Left does - therefore I can only assume you are the same.

Couldnt give a f**k what happens in London but you obviously have no idea that a van would never ever get that close. but like I said the arguement is pointless until we can prove that Iraq had these weapons and was selling them on and until that happens all of this is speculation it would be like our glorious leader who by the way was an innocent bystande in all this war mess sending half of the UK army to northern Ireland and arresting every terror memberbe the IRA or UVF etc just because they might one day be dangerous again.
Yeah but you cant keepusing what did happen as a justification for what may happen better intelligence would stop a lot of terror attacks.
yeah but the weapons inspectors were doing something and doing it well all they wanted was a couple more weeks to finish up and deliver the final report but we didnt wantn that like you keep saying you waited tweleve years would fourtenn days be to much to ask?
If enforcing 687 was the point thenwhy rant on about the WMDs? if it was adesire to please others then the two weeks the inspectors wanted was the way to go surely.
Yeah bin laden didnt have them but as far as we can all tell at this point neither did Iraq. The point I was trying to make though is that bin laden is the money man he could have ought them somewhere else.

You said and I quote "screwyour precious law" your words not mine or was that you being sarcastic.

but the whole what if thing is rather pointless what if a US nuclear sub crashes in to a dock in the US and blows up .

No youshould not ignore jihad but for christs sake tell me what you went to war for was it to liberate people, dispose of a dictator, to find

forgive me about the gap I pressed the wrong button.
anyways to continue was it find WMDS or was it in reply to jihad or was it about breaking the rules of the united nations.
Finally I a\int the same maybe when it come to ant criticism of the war you have this one track mind of anti american leftists.

PS if you are so worried about terrorists getting a hold of nuclear warheads then what about the 16+ that are missing around the world today but again that is what if they got them.

Once again I apologise for the break in my message

but you obviously have no idea that a van would never ever get that close.

We thought the WTC could never be toppled either.

Anyway...you're missing the point I made.

but like I said the arguement is pointless until we can prove that Iraq had these weapons

THEY HAD THE WEAPONS!!!!! THEY WERE DOCUMENTED BY UNSCOM AND THE IAEA NOTWITHSTADNING OUR OWN INTELLIGENCE OF WHAT WE EXTRAPOLATED HE HAD SINCE THE IRAN WAR.

THERE WERE EXILED IRAQI SCIENTISTS TESTIFIYING THEY WERE WORKING ON A NUKE PROGRAM THAT WAS NEAR COMPLETION.

What you people are demanding is the warheads, the canisters and the admission on live TV by Sadaam that he indeed made and has these WMDS and wants to use them on American cities before you will acknowledge he was in any violation or posed any threat to America.

It's NOT going to happen, and you people KNOW this - which is why you people keep dredging this same, tired, old and thoroughly worn out argument up.

arresting every terror memberbe the IRA or UVF etc just because they might one day be dangerous again.

If the IRA once again declared war on you, and you got intel that they were playing around with Sarin, Anthrax and Ricin in large quantities - and some defectors claimed that they were working on getting nukes to them -

I GUARANTEE YOU BLAIR WOULD HAVE HAD THE ROYAL MARINES BLOWING THEM TO SH*TE.

I doubt you Brits would decide to wait for better and more incontrovertible 'concrete proof'.

One second of miscalculation and you would have millions dead in moments.

Yeah but you cant keepusing what did happen as a justification for what may happen

Both Bin Laden and Sadaam declared jihad on America. They share the same hatred of the U.S. America got to see what happens when we treat such threats lightly, even after we had examples of their determination and capability. Bin Laden publicly stated the right of Al Qaeda to obtain nukes and chemical/biological weapons to use on Americans.

Now who else hated America that had access and stockpiles of such weapons?

That's right...SADAAM.

yeah but the weapons inspectors were doing something and doing it well

In 12 years they were played for fools, and Sadaam's compliance was cosmetic.

all they wanted was a couple more weeks to finish up and deliver the final report but we didnt wantn that like you keep saying you waited tweleve years would fourtenn days be to much to ask?

We saw where their reports were going, in the myriad contradictions from one statement to the next. None of the conditions for full disclosure and destruction of those weapons were met. UNMOVIC was finding hidden weapons like the Al Samoud II's, ANOTHER violation. If Sadaam was complying with the demands, UNMOVIC would not be finding hidden missile systems, Sadaam wouldn't have intimidated Iraqi scientists, bugging and harassing UN Inspectors etc., etc., etc.

Sadaam was NOT complying. He was playing you for fools, and because of current political interests - you were happy to be played.

We found out about the subterfuge from France to get a Force resolution vetoed so as to nullify all the previous 17 resolutions that demanded compliance or suffer forced military compliance. It was clear they were bowing