Only the Korean Model may work here... |
| Posted by: NothingSacred | | Both sides are to blame. The fact is that these people will never live together in peace. Why not try a model like the N/S Korean situation. Put up a huge electrified fence, a moat with sharks in it, mine fields, batallions of troops, SHOOT anybody who tries to cross in either direction (even dogs and cats!)whatever you need and have two states, side-by-side, living in peace, but only because they have no contact with each other? Have no Palestinians work in Israel and no Israelis working in Palestine...Allow no vists, no visas, just no contact period. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: ramarama | | But where to draw the line? You must remember that there are occupied lands that both sides want. Bill Clinton tried to mediate a compromise on where to draw this line, and it didn't work. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: NothingSacred | | I'd say create something then ram it down Israel's throat by threatening to pull 100% of all US Aid, if they don't shut up and take it.
I, of course, support the Palestinian side, but whichever side you happen to favor, there's one overriding thing...This BS HAS TO END!!! So I say, basically set something up and FORCE it on both sides...with military force, if that's what it takes. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: sordidmesh | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by NothingSacred
I'd say create something then ram it down Israel's throat by threatening to pull 100% of all US Aid, if they don't shut up and take it.
I, of course, support the Palestinian side, but whichever side you happen to favor, there's one overriding thing...This BS HAS TO END!!! So I say, basically set something up and FORCE it on both sides...with military force, if that's what it takes. |
There are three elements of the conflict. Israelis, Palestinians and terrorists. All wall must be erected and all of the terrorist groups must be hunted and killed.
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| Posted by: sordidmesh | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by NothingSacred
I'd say create something then ram it down Israel's throat by threatening to pull 100% of all US Aid, if they don't shut up and take it.
I, of course, support the Palestinian side, but whichever side you happen to favor, there's one overriding thing...This BS HAS TO END!!! So I say, basically set something up and FORCE it on both sides...with military force, if that's what it takes. |
How dare you equate Palestinians with terrorirsts. Shame on you.
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| Posted by: NothingSacred | | Who me? Personally, I think that launching a missile at a moving car a few miles away because you "think" that "maybe" an "extremist" is inside is as much an act of terrorism as is any suicide bombing. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Anti-Jihad | | They didn't 'think' there were terrorists in the car, they KNEW. That's what they have intelligence unit in IDF. Unfortunately, today's incident - the fact that innocents (Hamas' militant's family) sat in the car as well wasn't known to the intelligence and it was a shocking failure from their side. Otherwise, they would NOT have fired towards that car. (if they knew that women and children can get killed)
Regarding the idea of building a fence - it's already in the works. It started 2 years ago and now the works are being held in Jerusalem. They divide Jerusalem into 2 parts and put a fence between neighbourhoods. This fence that is called "separation fence" is planned to separate Israel and the occupied territories of '67.
Unfortunately, the fence requires tons of money and so far it has encountered dozens of problems and the building stopped once or several times. The problem is that this fence can easily be cut and that had happened. In some places the fence is relatively short and can be passed through easily. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: rowdyrjp | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by Anti-Jihad
They didn't 'think' there were terrorists in the car, they KNEW. That's what they have intelligence unit in IDF. Unfortunately, today's incident - the fact that innocents (Hamas' militant's family) sat in the car as well wasn't known to the intelligence and it was a shocking failure from their side. Otherwise, they would NOT have fired towards that car. (if they knew that women and children can get killed)
Regarding the idea of building a fence - it's already in the works. It started 2 years ago and now the works are being held in Jerusalem. They divide Jerusalem into 2 parts and put a fence between neighbourhoods. This fence that is called "separation fence" is planned to separate Israel and the occupied territories of '67.
Unfortunately, the fence requires tons of money and so far it has encountered dozens of problems and the building stopped once or several times. The problem is that this fence can easily be cut and that had happened. In some places the fence is relatively short and can be passed through easily. |
STOP IT Anti-Jihad....No mor BS!!!!!
Both of these tribes are being led by ANIMALS!!
Enough is Enough..... we need to draft a UN resolution for these two sides to disarm IMMEDIATELY!!!!
If they don't.... we go in { UNITED } and force peace down their baby killing ugly throats!!! 
IDF MEANT TO KILL FAMILY... Why? BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T CARE!!
It didn't matter if anyone else was there .... they came to kill!!!
HAMAS and every other pseudo religious/political sect of the PA...
have no intention of living peacefully with Israelies either!!!!
They still cling pathetically to a sick dream of winning a war with Israel!!! They are delusional!!
THE TIME HAS COME FOR THE FREE WORLD TO FORCE AN END TO THIS TRAGEDY!!!!
Palestinian children desrve better....
Israeli children deserve better....
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| Posted by: sordidmesh | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by rowdyrjp
STOP IT Anti-Jihad....No mor BS!!!!!
Both of these tribes are being led by ANIMALS!!
Enough is Enough..... we need to draft a UN resolution for these two sides to disarm IMMEDIATELY!!!!
If they don't.... we go in { UNITED } and force peace down their baby killing ugly throats!!!
IDF MEANT TO KILL FAMILY... Why? BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T CARE!!
It didn't matter if anyone else was there .... they came to kill!!!
HAMAS and every other pseudo religious/political sect of the PA...
have no intention of living peacefully with Israelies either!!!!
They still cling pathetically to a sick dream of winning a war with Israel!!! They are delusional!!
THE TIME HAS COME FOR THE FREE WORLD TO FORCE AN END TO THIS TRAGEDY!!!!
Palestinian children desrve better....
Israeli children deserve better.... |
Why do you support terrorists? Hamas is a terrorist group and so are the rest like it. They must be hunted down and killed, all of them. After this, peace wanting Palestinians will be able to work with Israel to live side by side.
Mahmoud Abbas said he will not use force to disarm the terrorists. That is the end of the road to peace right there and Israel takes over. Do you not think IDF makes excellent use of their spy satallites and is tracking terrorist movement? I am confident their targets are identified before struck.
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| Posted by: rowdyrjp | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by sordidmesh
Why do you support terrorists? Hamas is a terrorist group and so are the rest like it. They must be hunted down and killed, all of them. After this, peace wanting Palestinians will be able to work with Israel to live side by side.
Mahmoud Abbas said he will not use force to disarm the terrorists. That is the end of the road to peace right there and Israel takes over. Do you not think IDF makes excellent use of their spy satallites and is tracking terrorist movement? I am confident their targets are identified before struck. |
IF you can read.... I DON"T SUPPORT EITHER OF THESE BLOOD THIRSTY BABY KILLING TRIBES!!!!!
Period.....
I will no longer listen to defences of Israel's actions as "defense measures".....
{spit} they kill babies... they do not deserve to be recognized as a State.
I will no longer listen to defences of Palestine's actions as a "struggle for freedom"....
{spit} they kill babies... they do not deserve to be recognized as a State.
Let the UN send us all in and restructure this hellhole once and for all!!!
The children dying every day... because Palestinian and Israeli parents care more about petty vendettas than they do there OWN CHILDREN.... they need... no DEMAND our help.
If not us who?... If not now when?
STOP THE BLOODSHED!!!
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| Posted by: mystic | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by sordidmesh
Why do you support terrorists? Hamas is a terrorist group and so are the rest like it. They must be hunted down and killed, all of them. After this, peace wanting Palestinians will be able to work with Israel to live side by side.
Mahmoud Abbas said he will not use force to disarm the terrorists. That is the end of the road to peace right there and Israel takes over. Do you not think IDF makes excellent use of their spy satallites and is tracking terrorist movement? I am confident their targets are identified before struck. |
Normally I would agree with you. But I need to ask a question first.......Abbas said he will not disarm the terrorists. Is this maybe because he doesnt have the ability to fight without them? Im just curious if this is why.
And another point.....The Israeli's vowed war on the Hamas today. Great, Im all for it! The only problem is that the majority of the Israeli's are against it. Does anyone know why so many dont want this? I dont know and I was hoping that someone here knew.
but youre right.......terrorism needs to be stopped!
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| Posted by: nowar | | ok guys, rewind the tape:
Roadmap to peace introduced
Israel gov made about 100 remarks
Palestinian made about 15 remarks
Hamas rejected it arguing that they will let the roadmap to peace going on its way ONLY if Israel leave the occupied territories
Israel gov launched a strike against one Hamas leader
Hamas answered with bomb
Israel answered with some other strikes
Hamas will answer with some other bombs .......
You know, it make me think that Israel gov doesn't want peace.
Why the hell did they launched a strike against the leader while discussing the roadmap to peace ?
"we gonna kill those which are leading the Palestinian fight for years and the Palestinian will say: THANK YOU MR SHaron ????"
They don't want peace, they don't want to share the land ..... they ? Israel gov or maybe should I better say: Sharon and his friends .....
Sorry guys but it will be a never ending story .... unfortunately .... as long as nobody else stop them ....... | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Anti-Jihad | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by nowar
ok guys, rewind the tape:
Roadmap to peace introduced
Israel gov made about 100 remarks
Palestinian made about 15 remarks
Hamas rejected it arguing that they will let the roadmap to peace going on its way ONLY if Israel leave the occupied territories
Israel gov launched a strike against one Hamas leader
Hamas answered with bomb
Israel answered with some other strikes
Hamas will answer with some other bombs .......
You know, it make me think that Israel gov doesn't want peace.
Why the hell did they launched a strike against the leader while discussing the roadmap to peace ?
"we gonna kill those which are leading the Palestinian fight for years and the Palestinian will say: THANK YOU MR SHaron ????"
They don't want peace, they don't want to share the land ..... they ? Israel gov or maybe should I better say: Sharon and his friends .....
Sorry guys but it will be a never ending story .... unfortunately .... as long as nobody else stop them ....... |
Israel didn't have 100 remarks but much less and most of them were minor. Palestinians, I think, had less if not even 0 remarks.
Maybe in the beginning Hamas has rejected it arguing that they will let the roadmap to peace going on its way ONLY if Israel leaves the occupied territories, but don't forget that before the Israeli strike, Hamas stopped negotiating with Abu Mazen saying that they will not stop the armed intifada and declared war on Israel saying that there are suicide bombings to come. Abu Mazen wanted to resume talks with them, but they disagreed and said that they may want to meet next week.
Even though I don't support Wednesday's strike, I think Sharon wanted to prevent suicide bombings and instead he encouraged more of them.
The suicide bombing in Jerusalem had nothing to do with the strike on Wednesday and that bombing would have come anyway (revenge attacks often take a week or more, it's never done in one day) as Hamas declared that it would continue committing suicide bombings, and quoting one of last week's developments:
| quote: |
| Hamas tried to persuade the Islamic Jihad to stop the talks with Abu Mazen. Hamas claims that Islamic Jihad calls for all the organizations to start talks with Abu Mazen. |
and then the following happened:
| quote: |
4 IDF soldiers were killed and 4 were injured this morning when a squad of suicide bombers attacked Erez post in northern part of Gaza strip. The three suicide bombers were killed.
Fatah, Islamic Jihad and Hamas - all of them claimed common responsibility for the bombings. They said the activists came from Beit Hanoun which IDF currently controls. The attack followed the opposition's meeting where they've decided NOT to negotiate with Abu Mazen and PA representatives and continue the armed Intifada. |
...and that all was before Israel's strike.
I'm 99% sure that Sharon wants peace, and he also wants security for Israel, he feels he can't risk pulling out IDF and face a spree of suicide bombings as Security sources report of 50-60 suicide bombing warnings everyday (even during the short period of cease fire)... Maybe Abu Mazen should persuade Hamas and other organizations to stop planning suicide bombings and make the first move.
During the Oslo peace process, Rabin pulled out Israeli troops and gave the Palestinians almost full control and as a result the amount of suicide bombings increased.
| quote: |
| The terrorist violence has risen and fallen since 1993, but the trend line is always up, more violence and terror directed against Israel and Jewish people in the territories. There is always an excuse -- the settlements, the refugees, the checkpoints, etc. etc. -- but even as Israel has partially withdrawn, has given the Palestinian Authority control of 95% of the Palestinian population, has offered more and more concessions and has agreed to peace plan after peace plan, all that comes back from the Palestinians is terror and more demands. |
| quote: |
The Oslo accords created the conditions that led to this increased terrorism. As part of the agreement, Israel set free thousands of imprisoned terrorists; many of them quickly returned to their terrorist ways. Oslo gave Yasser Arafat his own territory and his own autonomous governing agency, the Palestinian Authority. That made it possible for him to shelter groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, to shield them from Israeli capture. In the PA territories, these groups have been able to set up training camps and bomb factories, and improve their techniques. They never would have been able to become as lethal and effective if Israeli forces had remained in control of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.
Oslo even put guns in the terrorists' hands. As part of the agreement, Israel supplied the PA security forces with thousands of rifles that were supposed to be used to fight against terrorists. Instead, they have been used to murder Israelis. |
Here you can find some statistical charts of Oslo's consequences:
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/oslo.html
Maybe it had just been a matter of time before these bombings ended and peace would have been achieved in '95-'96. On the other hand, maybe things would have got worse as terror escalated during Rabin's time as Israeli PM.
Either way, Israelis and Palestinians should learn from their past even though people can draw different conclusions from Oslo's failure. I don't know how much changed since '95, a peace plan should always be on the table and there'll always be a risk of failure. Buidling trust and mutual understanding using diplomacy can reduce the risk and make the decisions easier, so the solution obviously has to come from diplomatic negotiations.
There is peace between the Palestinian Authority and Israel, but there is war between Hamas and Israel and that's how it's been. Do you think that Israeli should meet up with Hamas representatives and negotiate with them? Even though negotiating with terrorists is wrong, in this situation, eliminating the organization is impossible. Peace can be achieved only if Hamas, Fatah and Islamic Jihad achieve an understanding with Israel and so far the PA only serves as a third entity.
A direct negotiation by Israeli defense ministry and Hamas leaders... (considering the fact that Israeli defense minister announced war on Hamas yesterday and Hamas leader announced war on Israel, I doubt such negotiations will begin anytime soon, if at all.)
...well, that is 1 approach to the conflict.
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| Posted by: NothingSacred | | Rowdyrip is right! BOTH SIDES are indiscriminate killers and terrorists, the only solution is to recognize this, INVADE and RAM A SOLUTION DOWN THEIR THROATS whether they like it or not...or this crap will be going on another 500 years! | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: NothingSacred | | This crap about Israel being "good guys" and Palestinians being "bad guys" has to end! They BOTH need to be taken to task and FORCED to swallow a solution that BOTH won't be happy with...but so what ??? "F" them both, the rest of the world can't indirectly be held hostage forever because two groups of A-holes can't come to some agreement. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: mystic | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by NothingSacred
This crap about Israel being "good guys" and Palestinians being "bad guys" has to end! They BOTH need to be taken to task and FORCED to swallow a solution that BOTH won't be happy with...but so what ??? "F" them both, the rest of the world can't indirectly be held hostage forever because two groups of A-holes can't come to some agreement. |
Nothingsacred...
This I agree with!! 
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| Posted by: rowdyrjp | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by USA1
Nothingsacred...
Finally! Something I agree with you on. |
Scary thought gang.....
If USA1, NothingSacred, mystic and myself can all agree on something???????????????
Wow.... how dense do world leaders have to be to not see this solution?
I mean in our little group discussing this... you have got voices from all sides of political spectrum from right to left and everything in between. If WE see the time has come for the world to intervene and FORCE both sides to stop killing.....
Why can't our leaders?
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| Posted by: rowdyrjp | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by nowar
do our leaders listen to us ? I doubt .....  |
You and me both nowar.....  you and me both.
But lets hope .... they might.
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| Posted by: Anti-Jihad | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by NothingSacred
This crap about Israel being "good guys" and Palestinians being "bad guys" has to end! They BOTH need to be taken to task and FORCED to swallow a solution that BOTH won't be happy with...but so what ??? "F" them both, the rest of the world can't indirectly be held hostage forever because two groups of A-holes can't come to some agreement. |
You all agree with this?!
or you all agree with this:
| quote: |
Originally posted by rowdyjrp
If they don't.... we go in { UNITED } and force peace |
I personally agree with the second quote. NothingSacred is also right - Israel's not the 'good guys' and Palestinians are not the 'bad guys' and neither it is the opposite. It's not black & white. I didn't understand the 'it has to end' part as I don't know what he meant by where it started or who started it.
I don't think that both sides won't be happy with the offered solution, maybe the leaders won't, but those who want peace, at least some of them will definitely be happy that the world cares about the situation and comes to help achieve peace. The world isn't held hostage, maybe the media holds the world hostage but it is the world who bothers to read, watch and hear about this conflict, not Palestinians and neither did Israelis complain to the world about the conflict.
"F" them both - If you want to help a certain group of people you should care about them, "F" them both means that you don't really care if you're going to help them or not with what you want to do.
As for the second quote, I agree with you and I've said that before and even proposed it a week ago that some forces should be sent to Israel and Palestine and stop all the bloodshed from both sides.
Do our leaders listen to us? The senator proposed this offer and many including Kofi Annan have supported it, soon there'll be a vote for it. Russian representatives will meet European and US representatives in Jordan soon and that'll be a good opportunity to discuss this plan and agree on sending international troops to the area. That would prove that these nations want peace, that they care about others and it will shed a good light on them.
Now let's analyze this plan:
The troops come to Israel as the world pressures Sharon to give permission to land the troops (or else...) but I doubt that Sharon will disagree and make the diplomatical relationship with these allied nations get down to the level of "or else..." They land and come by sea to Israel. Sharon orders to evacuate IDF from the territories "or else they'll be evacuated by force" he'll surely won't start war with the allied troops. They'll be evacuated. Now... Palestinian workers that work in Israel will have to be fired or checked everyday in Israel's posts. The troops will either check them or forbid them to enter Israel. Supplies of food and water and medicine will be sent to aid the Palestinians. Money aid to Israel will be given in order to build the fence faster.
Now, IDF left the territories, no assasinations. This will be a test for Hamas, Fatah and the others. If they continue with the suicide bombings, the troops aren't likely to stop all of them so in that case, what will the troops do? If they enter the territories and begin with assasinations, they'll be the same as IDF. If they don't do anything, the responsibility of deaths of some Israeli civilians will fall on their shoulders, because IDF manages to prevent suicide bombers from entering the territories.
The same with the other side, what if Israel sends some troops of Apaches over there without permission from the Allies... Should they be shot at? Could be... Sharon isn't likely to give any orders to IDF when the allied troops are here.
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I'm sure some of you think that I'm pro-Israeli and anti-Palestinian for always protecting the Israeli side, but it's not the case. If you read some of my posts, when the Israeli side is being flattered and anger comes towards the Palestinian side I actually support the Palestinian side (and if in some cases I didn't, I'll be glad to). I post more fact about the Israeli side because often the Israeli side is being blamed here and I can understand why - because the Israeli state is a democratic and free state and the world expects the country to be civilized and humane.
Many times people end up generalizing and blaming without knowing much details or see at things as if they're black & white, so I try to add some color to the picture.
Many Israelis, if they read my posts they'd think that I'm very much leftist.Another reason why I post more often about the Israeli side is because I come from Israel and I know much more about Israel than about Palestine, the news I read are more about Israel, but since they try to be neutral, news about Palestinians are being posted as well. I was trying to find some Palestinian sites with English support that are neutral but the Palestinian news sites I've been to where more like propaganda, they didn't post anything about the suicide bombing in Jerusalem whereas the Israeli site I often visit posts how many killed are at both sides. I'll look more for neutral Palestinian news sites and I'd appreciate it if you know any and would care giving me links to them.
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| Posted by: _Divus_Titus | | I support this solution.
Palestinians has become terrorists 'cause they hated occupiers.
In the very beginning they hated Jews that they were Jews.
Now they have the both reasons.
Terrorism is Palestinians' possible way of fighting since they have no state.
So - keep them separate from each other. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: mystic | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by _Divus_Titus
So - keep them separate from each other. |
this is correct as far as Im concerned. It seems to be the only way to end the maddness! But........is it possible??
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| Posted by: rowdyrjp | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by mystic
this is correct as far as Im concerned. It seems to be the only way to end the maddness! But........is it possible?? |
Sure, at least I think so, the UN could approve a massive allied force to MAKE it happen.
Some sort of giant barrier/wall could be erected around borders and the allied forces could move in and disarm any and all militants on both sides.
As I have stated before though, the force would have to be large enough to create a fear of consequence to those who would still try to fight, and unbiased in its enforcement of these mandates in order to develop the respect of both sides.
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| Posted by: _Divus_Titus | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by Anti-Jihad
Now let's analyze this plan:
The troops come to Israel as the world pressures Sharon to give permission to land the troops (or else...) but I doubt that Sharon will disagree and make the diplomatical relationship with these allied nations get down to the level of "or else..." They land and come by sea to Israel. Sharon orders to evacuate IDF from the territories "or else they'll be evacuated by force" he'll surely won't start war with the allied troops. They'll be evacuated. Now... Palestinian workers that work in Israel will have to be fired or checked everyday in Israel's posts. The troops will either check them or forbid them to enter Israel. Supplies of food and water and medicine will be sent to aid the Palestinians. Money aid to Israel will be given in order to build the fence faster.
Now, IDF left the territories, no assasinations. This will be a test for Hamas, Fatah and the others. If they continue with the suicide bombings, the troops aren't likely to stop all of them so in that case, what will the troops do? If they enter the territories and begin with assasinations, they'll be the same as IDF. If they don't do anything, the responsibility of deaths of some Israeli civilians will fall on their shoulders, because IDF manages to prevent suicide bombers from entering the territories.
The same with the other side, what if Israel sends some troops of Apaches over there without permission from the Allies... Should they be shot at? Could be... Sharon isn't likely to give any orders to IDF when the allied troops are here.
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Look, if the Jews were allowed to kill Palestinians freely would there be no-one who'd like to do it along with terrorist acts ? (But I doubt that Jews are capable to sacrifice their lives)
The Israeli have a state which make them abide to law. The Palestinians have nothing. Thats why they commit terrorist acts against Israel while the Jews don't.
Israel shows more will to peace than Palestinians: takes away illegal settlements, for example. And it because of the same reason. I doubt that such acts are much popular in Israel.
But the way in which IDF acts isn't a way of a civilised army shoud act. Palestinians commit a terrorist act - Israeli take revenge.
There are two alternatives: either occupy and genocide them (which is not possible because of reaction of international community) or erect a wall between you and them.
The last is the preffered solution. Otherwise suicide bombing --> IDF's raid over a Palestinian refugee camp --> suicide bombing ...
Ad infinitum.
Stop talking about tests for Hamas... I'm sure there are equalents in some Zionist parties in Knesset. They don't just have the same freedom.
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Israel & Palestine Forum: Only the Korean Model may work here...
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