Hamas seizing control of Gaza Strip

Israel & Palestine Forum

Hamas fighters launched a fierce offensive on Gaza City Wednesday, firing mortars and rockets at Fatah's main security bases and the president's compound as the Islamic group appeared close to taking control of the entire Gaza Strip.

With fighting raging on rooftops and streets in nearly all corners of Gaza, residents huddled in fear in their homes….

….Fayez Abu Taha, 45, a businessman in the southern town of Rafah, said he was trapped in his apartment building with his family after Hamas fighters took over a nearby rooftop and Fatah responded by taking over the roof of his building.

"I don't know what they are battling for now," he said. "I can see the bullets flying from my windows. Coming and going."

At least 15 people were killed in fighting Wednesday, bringing the total in four days of infighting to nearly 60……

Source

They will kill each other for the right to kill Israelis. Sad

Isn't what has happened in Gaza exactly what many people predicted?

If you squeeze the Palestinians in Gaza to breaking point, and just watch as the place starts to crumble, then don't even pretend to be surprised when the group that rises to the top of the squalid mess is worse than the one that was there before.

Similarly in Lebanon, which had been moving in a positive direction for years, Israel bomb the place, bringing chaos and destruction, with the ludicrous hope this will showhow lead to a positive outcome. What we get instead is even more violence, and the rise and strengthening of the very people the bombing was suppossed to destroy - Hezbollah.

And of course, then there's Iraq. Sprinkle in a little bit of "shock and awe", stand back, cross your fingers, and it won't be long before Iraq first, and then the whole of the Middle East is eating burgers, baseball caps, and wearing bluejeans.

Point taken but history says these very regions you’re blaming the US and Israel for bringing violence has always seen violence by those who are already there. Lebanon fought a brutal battle during the 70s & 80s between Christians and Muslims. Iraq and Iran fought a brutal war, not to mention the killings Saddam committed during his reign. No one has killed more Muslims than Muslims but it’s always justified by some absurd words of a lunatic.

While you can fault Israel for a bad decision, another could view it this way. As long as Hezbollah was running a country within a country where they could hurdle bombs into Israel unprovoked at will, things were fine. Now that there’s no refuge for these groups because of Israel’s campaign, violence ensues within. Same can be said about Iraq.

What we see in Lebanon is another prime examples of what I believe are the hypocrisies of the Arab/Muslim world. Again, the Palestinians are suffering directly because of their decisions by fighting within their camps.

Furthermore, Palestinians aren’t allow to seek jobs, go to schools nor seek medical attention within these same communities that claim Israel treats them so badly. They aren’t even allowed to marry outside of their own yet Hezbollah, Iran and others claim that their occasional attacks on Israel are because of their treatments of Palestinians.

Hamas will never give full recognition to Israel, ever. You throw an outfit like them in charge of your government and you’ll get exactly what we see today, chaos.

The one guy I feel sorry for is Abbas, say what you want about him but he is a moderate and he is the preferred leader in the eyes of the international community ( including Israel) and he has tried to quell the infighting that has happend in Palestine in the past yet HAMAS always find ways of undermining him and wrecking any progress he makes. Take two recent incidents HAMAS have blamed Abbas, the US and of course Israel for the cuts in aid and it is because of them that aid has been stopped and then there is the kidnapping of Alan Johnston. Abbas, people in Fatah and prominent Palestinians have campaigned for his release if HAMAS does the same there is a greater chance that Mr Johnston would be released but so far they have failed.
Abbas must wake up every day and ask why he bothers to bang his head against the brick wall that is HAMAS, hell he has just a few hiours had to dissolve the Parliment because of these guys.

What I'm saying is that our interference in the region has, far from improving the situation, actually made it worse. Something is clearly wrong with a Middle Eastern policy that is strengthening the militant hold on power all over the region.

Ignoring Hamas and hoping they would go away has proved in such a short time to be a disastrous policy. I am not the least bit surprised.

The US must admit and take some blame for what's happened in Gaza. They armed and funded Fatah hoping they would wipe out the democratically elected party. Now what??

Well we should remember that Fatah needed to be armed because the democratically elected party was better armed that the security services and wanted ti wipe them out.

The fact is you can blame the US all you want but this would have kicked off regardless. Also the US and the international community as whole has not ignored HAMAS as such, this situation is HAMAS' own doing they want to be recognised and accepted then they know what they have to do and they won't do it. The ball is in thier court and if they want to keep playing then they know what the have to do.

Lodge, you’re exactly right in your assessment.

The US only brought out the underlying. Hamas has been a disaster for the Palestinians and set back years of progress, no doubtedly urged on by the likes of those in Iran and Syria.

I just believe h@ts that everything that goes wrong in that region is blamed on the US and Israel. This was certainly done long before any attack on Iraq or Lebanon.

Abbas was the last hope for lasting peace although he had a pretty steep hill to climb. There are too many people in that region that will never accept peace and spew the rhetoric to support this claim.

Blaming the US & Israel is like the bank robber or murderer blaming the system for his own despicable actions. How anyone could have lent legitimacy to a Hamas led government defies logic. If anyone cannot see where the problems in that region lie right now, they are hopelessly nearsighted.

The TV network news that I have seen on this latest development almost seems to be treating it as a good thing. It is very hard to detect exactly what their take on it is.

Euclid I think it is as seen as a good thing is for 2 reasons 1. when Hamas realise that they are in control of Gaza and they have to feed those people, get them jobs or money, electricity, sanatation etc etc and they can't do that the people will turn against them. The people in the streets today were chanting something about supporting those that feed them, so what doi you think will happenm top that support if HAMAS can't feed them?

The 2nd reason it might be a good thing is becxause the al axa martyrs brigade have vowed tro destroy HAMAS and they may just they are better trained, armed, led and supported now it will be bloddy but I don't think Hamas can hang with Al Axafor to long.

Now if the two above things happen in quick succession Hamas will find it's self backed into a corner I don't think it can fight out of.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/f6e78430-1b...0b5df10621.html

You are saying it's unrealisitixc to ask Hamas to recoginise Israel and and to cease terrorism?

H@as as of yet you have failed to tell us what you would do. Would you recoginsie and talk with Hamas while they launched attacks on Israel or would you boycot them because there is no middle ground on this type of issue it's one or the other.

You are still not answering the question, all you seem to do is take the view of Hamas and that is to blame everyone else for problems of thier own making.

The question remains what would you do?

What we have seen today proves what most Arab states thik of Hamas. With the new government in the West bank being Hamas free the internationl community has allowed trade and the much needed aid to return and the fact is that a number of Arab states are to start giving aid they witheld when Hamas gained power so it's not just the West that has had misgiving about Hamas in power.

Also today in the Gaza strip a Hamas offcial has complained that Israel is to stop supplying fuel to the Strip WTF I am surprised Israel have been supplying anything at all to the Strip. There has alos been an exodus of Gaza citizens desperate to get to the soon to be wealthy West Bank some are Fatah members fleeing for thier lives some just realised Hamas is not a leader you want of course this exodus gives Israel a mammoth headache at the border and I am sure it is something that has Isreali politicians sweating.

..

Look at it this way, either we'll see the very unlikely occurrence of Hamas imploding and just disappearing (don't hold your breathe) or we will eventually have to "deal" with them, which is pretty much what has been forced on the US and their wonderfully successful silent policy with Iran.

It's been one MAJOR balls-up after another in the Middle East and we seem incapable of changing direction. Bin Laden must be wetting himself with delight at how badly we've done in the last 7 years or so:

Iraq is now BL's training groud of choice. Israel's dismal military failure in Lebanon gave Hezbollah a massive boost in the Arab world, Afganistan is after SIX LONG ARDUOUS YEARS going backwards!! Iraq has seen the rise to power of Islamic fundamentalism tied to Iran.

And now to top that Hamas firstly win the very thing we said would "save" the Middle East, ie democratic elections, and then due to meddling of those countries involved (and I have to say, not just the US) we now have an Islamic state in Gaza! If there's any domino effect happening in the region, anyone who isn't blind can see which way they are falling.

It's true what some people say - insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different results.

So what you are saying is that you think we should negotiate with terrorists is that your grand plan if it is I am sorry to say it is the most idiotic idea I have heard. Throughout the world the armed forces, the police and those nice men in the security services that do the job and vanish have the same rule you NEVER EVER under any circumstances negotiate with terrorists if they renounce violence diffrent story but Hamas will not do that. Anyway what good will talking do exaclty? you yourself have admitted Hamas won't change so why would we waste time talking about something that ain't going to change thier murderous policies.
You talk about the domino effect and yet you are to blinded ( a little by hatred) to see what western politicians esp the US and UK are worried about if you negotiate with one group you have to negotiate with another or at least thats how they view it. There have been cases of countries negotiating with these groups and it has been a long term disaster.
And Hamas does not need to leave or implode it just has to be impotent and it is coming along nicely very little population to rule over, little power, money or influence they are as good as dead.
Also don't dump Iraq, Afghanistan etc etc together if you just drop the I hate Bush mask for long enough you will see they are very different circumstances that require diffrent approaches long and short term.

Furthermore, where's are the Arabs protesting to the U.N. about Hamas taking over Gaza and killing Fatah members in broad daylight in the streets?

Now imagine if you would this had been Israel. Muslims everywhere would be screaming and tearing their robes off in the street screaming "death to America".

We see yet another example of the the lunatic, screaming, robe tearing Muslim at work in suppossed "ally" Pakistan, where an official has said he thinks it's okay if a suicide bomber blows up Salmon Rushdie just because he has been offered and accepted a British knighthood. And this Muslim country has NUKES!!!

What's the difference between Abbas's Fatah and Hamas?

Abbas's Fatah wants Israel in increments. Hamas wants it in one swoop. So says http://www.israelnationalnews.com. Fatah may be a secular party but it wouldn't surprise me if they're mostly Muslim!

nubes = nukes

Gazans stream to crossing with Israel

Hundreds of terrified Gazans fleeing Hamas rule, including two people wounded nearly 24 hours earlier, were trapped Tuesday in a squalid tunnel at a main crossing with Israel, hoping to gain permission to pass through Israeli territory to sanctuary in the West Bank……

Source

So much for the people’s choice hey h@ts???????

It's going to be interesting to see if Fatah realise that all this funding being chucked their way is, far from being helpful to the present situation, actually just a way to deepen the Palestinian divide. Can the corrupt Fatah party see through what is harldy the most subtle of tactics, or will they take the money and run?

Lodgebo said:

"So what you are saying is that you think we should negotiate with terrorists is that your grand plan if it is I am sorry to say it is the most idiotic idea I have heard."

Yet another ill-thought out statement.

Imagine if we'd taken Lodgebo's 'I-don't-do-negotiations-with-terrorists approach' with the Irish Republican Army – we'd still be in a state of conflict to this very day!. Thank goodness John Major and his retinue had the sense to negotiate with aforementioned army.

Call them what you will, terrorists or freedom fighters (depends which side you're on), but eventually, negotiation must come into the equation. Look what's happening in Afghanistan. President Khazi's government has managed to lure a number of Taliban fighters into his government through means of negotiation, according to programme on BBC radio 4 about the current state of play in Afghanistan.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if the Israeli and US government were, at this juncture in time, negotiating with their enemy in Palestine.

Furthermore, do you think the US government will ever disentangle itself from that convoluted web called Iraq without negotiating with its assumed enemies? If we followed Lodgebo's 'logic' we could kiss goodbye to peace in Iraq for another sixty-seven years.

Preston

H@ts,

The likes of Oneofpeace and Lodgebo probably thought that all Irish people were uneducated and barbaric and not worthy of dialogue. But I won't make too many assumptions – I'll leave that to the aforementioned experts.

All wars end, not with the firing of a bullet or the dropping of a bomb, but with that mightiest of all devices – dialogue.

In my opinion, there'll never be peace between the Palestinian and Israeli political wings until an independent and impartial arbiter is elected to overlook the conflict between the two states. And neither Britain nor America qualify as impartial. I'm still trying to work out who or what would undertake such a gargantuan responsibility. Anybody have any suggestions? (and don't say the UN because it's too easily blackmailed by the US government).

Perhaps if we removed every single Zionist Jew and fundamentalist Muslim from the equation by means of locking them up in lunatic asylum, we might just find some peace (fundamentalism is the core of this seemingly intractable conflict and ALL fundamentalists are the scourge of humanity in my polished opinion – and that applies to Christans too!).

Preston

There's a fundamental divide in their belief system with decades of hatred that can't be repaired any time soon. Dialogue? Sure, but it will be after plenty of more bullets and bombs.

-HECK!

Preston I feel I need to point out something about what you said was my "no negotiation with terrorists" approach. MY approach come on it's not MY approach it's the approach of the the EU, Norway, Australia, America, Canada, Japan, Egypt, Israel and now Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia who negotiated with Hamas and Fatah at Mecca are now sick of Hamas. So it's not MY approach it's a practically global approach you will be hard pressed to find countries that want to talk with Hamas Iran probably but not many other unless the renounce violence and respect Israel because until then talks are pointless because they won't change that stance and we cannot agree with that stance.

Oh and as for northern Ireland the peace deal came after the 97 IRA ceasefire until that happened the UK would not let Sinn Fein get round the table, we almost had a deal in 94 I think it was but the Docklands attack changed all that.

Just so there no confusion I don't think Irish people are barbarians ( my wife is Irish which makes my newborn son half Irish ) in fact I was stationed in Ireland and for the vast majority I felt sorry for them

Lodgebo,

Anybody who takes the 'no negotiation' approach is behaving recklessly in my opinion. I'm no fan of Hamas nor the other non-secular organisations that exist around the world, however, seeing how Hamas was democratically elected, the West, including the E.U. and the US should have been consistent and negotiated with Hamas instead of dismissing the organisation outright, and pushing it into a corner. It just appears that certain Western countries dance to the rhythm of democracy so long as the tune is of their choosing.

As for Northern Ireland, it was the Downing Street Declaration, signed in 1993 under the Major government that led the Irish Republican Army to sign an historic ceasefire on 31st August 1994, which, although wasn't a permanent ceasefire, was the beginning of the end of hostilities. If Thatcher had been in power at that juncture in time, negotiations with Sinn Fein would never have materialised, because, as I have previously stated, Thatcher was opposed to negotiating with the IRA. The upshot being, you can't just ignore groups such as Hamas or the Irish Republican Army, hoping they will just go away, this is the method of fools.

Seems as though Palestine may divide into two separate states: a muslim sector and a non-muslim, secular sector. If that doesn't happen, then there will be infighting in Palestine for years to come, which will suit Israel because Israel will no longer be the target of those who live in the occupied territories.

Current events in Palestine certainly make for interesting predictions.


Preston

The offers they have made are meaningless because they have been non commital and not permenent so they are meaningless what we want is the right offer to cease violence and recognise Israel not for a few months but forever. If Hamas do that they are back round the table and it does work looking back at N. Ireland how long did we leave Sinn Fein out before the realsied it was no fun out in the cold, it's like what is happening in the west bank they are slowly moving forward and the aid is being freed up and well Hamas may be wondering what they can do to get some of that.

The social policies that Hamas have are sound and are good but it's thier foreign policy that needs to change, I would understand how you and Preston feel if the demand that the world has made are unreaosnable but they are not unreasonable at all in essence all we are asking is that they don't kill anyone.

I see I’ve been gone way too long because once again, h@ts is misconstruing my words while Preston soaks it up like a sponge.

First, h@ts instead of partial statements you surgically cut out my post to prove a point let me dispel your ridiculous assertions that I believe all Muslims “at any given point” will tear off their robes and rant and scream. I have never asserted such nor do I believe this. I do believe that there are vast portions that demonstrate such behavior in the streets whenever someone:

a) Offend their sensibilities
b) Israel takes any measures whatsoever to stop attacks
c) They are ordered to mindlessly do so by their leadership

Perfect example is the incident with the Danish publishing a picture of their Prophet. Not only did Muslims attack churches and kill Christians, one in the form of a defenseless Nun, they ultimately laid blame on the US for the Danish printing the cartoon.

Now I can’t possibly cover all the things you and Preston commented on but let’s start with you two comparing the IRA with likes of Hamas.

The IRA’s charter was NOT the complete destruction of the British. Furthermore, the IRA hasn’t refused to negotiate with the British or not recognizing their “right to exist”.
The IRA, through despicable tactics still had the common sense not to reject every effort made to bring about a resolution.You and Preston believe that the world should negotiate with Hamas on Hamas’ terms. These are some of the most absurd assertions I’ve seen in these forums.

Finally after years of negotiation failures and progress, Hamas’ refusal to recognize any of them were soley the reason and dismemberment of past progression. The assertion that the US and the West rejected Hamas is, not for a lack of better description, inaccurate. We clearly demonstrated we would negotiate with them but the must abide by previous agreements first. Hamas rejected those terms so no past agreements were binding period.

Blaming the West for Hamas’ actions are counterproductive and contribute to their convoluted ideas that they are somehow righteous in their refusals and the West is asking them to do something that’s “totally impossible”. Now if you two want to believe this is the pinnacle of absurdities for the West to refuse Hamas on “these grounds”, then so be it. However I think it underscores the lack of rationale that’s sorely needed to resolve a crisis of this nature.