Family Sues Mint Over Rare, Valuable Coins

Culture & Society Forum

Family Sues Mint Over Rare, Valuable Coins

Associated Press

PHILADELPHIA - A family is suing the U.S. Mint, saying it illegally seized 10 gold coins that are among the rarest and most valuable in the world that the family found among a dead relative's possessions.

The lawsuit, filed Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Philadelphia, accuses the Mint of violating the Constitution and breaking federal forfeiture laws by refusing to return the 1933 "double eagle" coins to the family after it handed the coins over to have their authenticity confirmed.

Plaintiffs Joan S. Langbord and her sons, Roy and David, are seeking the immediate return of the coins, said their attorney, Barry H. Berke.

Defendants named in the suit include the Mint, the Treasury Department, and officials in those agencies.

A Mint spokesman declined to comment, saying that the Mint had not yet been officially served.

Double eagles were first struck in 1850. They are so named because they had a face value of $20, twice the amount of gold coins known as eagles.

The coins, which Mint officials have said are so rare that their value could not be calculated, feature a flying eagle on one side and a figure representing liberty on the other. There were 445,500 minted in 1933, but they were melted down before being released into circulation when President Franklin D. Roosevelt took the country off the gold standard.

A handful escaped, however. Two were deliberately set aside and are at the Smithsonian Institution. The Mint has said any others in existence were obtained illegally, but agreed after a lengthy court battle to allow one of the coins to be sold at auction in 2002 for $7.59 million - the highest price ever paid for a coin - after its owner agreed to split the proceeds with the Mint.

Langbord, who discovered the coins in 2003 in a safe deposit box belonging to her deceased father, longtime Philadelphia jeweler Israel Switt, was aware of that case and contacted the Mint to disclose the coins' existence and "attempt to reach an amicable resolution of any issues that might be raised," the lawsuit states.

She handed the coins over to the Mint to be authenticated, but the Mint refused to give them back, saying they must have been stolen from the Philadelphia Mint in the early 1930s because they had never been in circulation, according to the lawsuit.

Switt, who died in 1990, told Secret Service agents in 1944 that he had possessed and sold nine 1933 double eagles, according to the Mint. All were tracked down by the government and destroyed between 1944 and 1952.

"The Mint's lawless position is that by merely claiming the coins were somehow removed from the Mint unlawfully in the 1930s, they can take the Langbords' property without proving it in a court of law," Berke said.

The coins at the center of the lawsuit were briefly displayed this summer for an American Numismatic Association's convention in Denver. They have been secured at the U.S. Bullion Depository in Fort Knox, Ky.
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-HECK!

And the government tries to jack someone else again...

i'm.....shocked....

GIVE 'EM BACK THIEVES!

The Mint shoud stick it. What a bunch of uptight sicko's. Give the coins back to the family...

I agree. But the mints says the only way people could have these is if they were stolen in the first place. Which sucks for the family.

I think at the very least they should split the profits, but the family should get the whole thing.

-HECK!

Yeah, but even the most stringent of statue of limitations run out after a few years. What does the mint want to do? Melt them down like they did in the olden days?

If the mint uses them, then they are breaking the law as well. I should have been a lawyer dammit.

Unless they have solid evidence showing that the coins were stolen...

I say give 'em back to the family.

Of course the family should have never given them to them in the first place. That was not a smart move.

They created their own monster. By melting the few in existance and almost making a bootleg item their popularity and value has soared. If they didn't make a big deal about it in the first place they wouldn't be worth a turd.

I wonder if there is a Coin Recovery & Disposal Unit in the government. Maybe that can be the next uber crime drama on TV.

"This week on CRDU- a counterfeit Indian Head Nickel maker has Special Agent Jack Copperhead and his partner Lacey Silverback play a sinister game of cat-and-mouse as they try to bring down the counterfeit operation... or die trying!" TM HECK! Productions.

-HECK!

I would have told the Mint to kiss my ass, and authinicate my back side, for enjoyment.

Then, I would have sold those coins and lived off the fundage.

It seems the coins were stolen... I mean, they were never released, ergo the only way someone could've gotten one is if they worked for the mint and snuck one out.

That being said, **** the mint and hoo rah for the family.

Well I don't how the US Mint works but if it what they are saying is gospel and these coins were obtained illegally then by rights should they not be returned to the rightful owners in this case that would be the Mint, if the coins have indeed at one point been nicked and the family were to sell them is that not proifiting from crime and is that not illegal in the US?
Of course this all depends if it can be proven that the coins were indeed obtained illegally but if you can prove it maybe they should go stick them in a museam or something.

We are talking about 80 years ago, so I don't know. The thing that always upsets me about these kinds of cases, though, is that the family are just trying their damnedest to profit from their family member's death... I mean, it's like they won the lottery... sure, okay, those coins should belong to them... but they've done nothing to deserve it. (And I'm really a nice person, please God, give a brother a break for once?)

Its like what goboman said, the coins were never released therfore they were stolen, it doesnt matter how long ago it was.
would you think it were different had the coin belong to another family instead of the mint. like back in the day this family was the only family that had them and then they were stolen, recovered 80 years later and now the memebers of the original family wanted them back. They are rightfully theres. the new family shouldnt profit because 80 years ago they had a family memebr that was a theif. The family cant do anything with them anyway, its illegal to posses them. if they could the father probably would have done more them put them in a box.

maybe the family should get something, but i really see no reason why. I guess i'm alone on this one.

Wow....thats a pretty strong characterization. There are many maybe's to look at....Maybe, maybe, maybe....

I dont think anyone is in a position to say this particular gentleman was a thief when there is no proof of this whatsoever.

Look around and see how many coins have been noted as a rare find only to find that the original coins in question were melted down but some escaped and now are owned by collectors. Are they thiefs as well? Why hasnt the mint tracked them down and taken those?

"PHILADELPHIA (AP) _ The eagles have landed -- and now the descendants of Philadelphia jeweler Israel Switt want them back. The eagles in this case are "double eagle" gold coins, which are among the rarest and most valuable in the world. The coins landed in the possession of the U-S Mint, when the family found them in a safe deposit box and asked to have them authenticated. The government maintains the coins were stolen from the Mint in the early 1930's. A federal lawsuit asks for the return of the ten seized coins. In 2002, a 1933 double eagle was sold for nearly seven-point-six (m) million dollars, the highest price ever paid for a coin. The owner of that coin split the take with Uncle Sam ."

Why was this same coin not taken back by the Mint? This guy made a fortune off of the same coin..

Is this person a thief as well? Doesnt seemed to have been a problem for the Mint back in 2002....so why now?

From the NY Post:


"In 2002, a 1933 double eagle was sold for $7.59 million -- the highest price ever paid for a coin. After a legal battle, the coin dealer was permitted to sell it at auction on the condition he split the proceeds with the Mint."

Well...well, well.....interesting tidbit...

Ill bet if these people told The Mint that they would give them a piece of the pie, the Mint would have let them keep it.

And we are supposed to think that this family's ancestor was a thief???

Exactly who is the thief in this whole scenario??

thats why i said she should be allowed to sell 1 coin, because a president has been set with another case.

the mint is entitled to the coins because they are the original owners seeing how no one else was supposed to posses them and they were supposed to be destroyed.

Why should someone else profit because they ran across something no one was supposed to have?

i dont know why they settled in the other case. but i know if i was them and i settled i'd want a chunk of something that should have never left the mint in the first place too. how is it that they are the ones thieving? frankly i dont give a diddly enough to go look it up. thats why i'm going on the facts offered for this poll. You just go chow down on that buffet mystic. I'm fine with my tidbits.

OK if it was a subject that I actually give two cents about, I might be bothered to look it up. Seeing how I could care less if this lady makes any money off coins that were in one way or another at some point obtained illegally, no i'm not gonna bother to go look it up.

and i know what precedence is, and you obviously got my point even though I made a typo, so instead of being petty and and trying to break down my posts by pointing out that i spelled a word wrong, why dont you offer up some of that buffet you calm to being getting so fat off of. So far I havent seen you post any new info, just more off of what HECK posted to begin with.

Tell me why someone should be entitled to money from coins that were illegally obtained, besides the fact that everyone wants to "stick it to the man" Please enlighten me, my young mind is just dying to know. Maybe then I can sleep at night.

The 1933 gold Double Eagles were struck after this executive order, but because they were no longer legal tender, most of the 1933 gold coins were melted down in late 1934 and some were destroyed in tests. Two of the $20 Double Eagles were presented by the United States Mint to the U.S. National Numismatic Collection, and they were recently on display in the "Money and Medals Hall" on the third floor of the National Museum of American History.

[These two coins should have been the only 1933 Double Eagle coins in existence. ] However, unbeknownst to the Mint, [a number of the coins (20 have been recovered so far) were stolen , possibly by the U.S. Mint Cashier, George McCann. At least nine of these coins, which were illegal to possess, found their way via Philadelphia jeweler Israel "Izzie" Switt, into the hands of collectors . (Switt's family recently disclosed an additional ten coins, see below.)

The coins circulated amongst collectors for several years before the Secret Service became aware of their existence[/COLOR ] . The matter came to the attention of Mint officials when an investigative reporter looked into the history of the coins and contacted the Mint as part of his research, as a result of which an official investigation was begun by the Secret Service in 1944. Seven of the coins were discovered and turned over to federal agents (or seized) within the first year of the investigation, with one coin remaining in public possession until 1952. However, at least one Double Eagle coin had found its way overseas.
The Egyptian Double Eagle
One of the missing Double Eagles was acquired by King Farouk of Egypt , who was known for being a playboy and a spendthrift. He was also a voracious collector of many things, including Imperial Faberge eggs, antique aspirin bottles, paperweights, postage stamps - and coins. In 1944 Farouk purchased a 1933 Double Eagle, and in strict adherence with the law, his ministers applied to the United States Treasury Department for an export license for the coin. Mistakenly, just days before the Mint theft was discovered, the license was granted . The Treasury Department attempted to work through diplomatic channels to request the return of the coin from Egypt, but World War II delayed their efforts for several years. In 1952 King Farouk was deposed in a coup d'etat, and many of his possessions were made available for public auction (run by Sotheby's) -- including the Double Eagle coin . The United States Government requested the return of the coin, and the Egyptian government stated that it would comply with the request. However, at that time the coin disappeared and was not seen again in Egypt.

ADouble Eagle surfaced again after over forty years of obscurity, when Stephen Fenton was arrested by US Secret Service agents during a sting operation at the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel in New York, and the British coin dealer was questioned. Although he initially told investigators he bought the coin over the counter at his shop, he later changed his story. Under sworn testimony,he insisted the Double Eagle had come from the collection of King Farouk, though this could not be ascertained. Charges against Fenton were subsequently dropped[/COLOR] , and he defended his ownership of the coin in court. The case was settled in 2001 when it was agreed that ownership of the Double Eagle would revert to the United States Government, and the coin could then legally be sold at auction. The United States Treasury issued a document to "issue and monetize" the coin, thereby making it a legal-tender gold coin in the United States.
When the coin was seized, it was transferred to a holding place believed to be safe: the Treasury vaults of the World Trade Center. When the court settlement was reached in July of 2001, the coin was transferred to Fort Knox for safekeeping. Less than two months later, the World Trade Center was destroyed in the September 11, 2001 attacks.

On July 30, 2002, the 1933 Double Eagle was sold to an anonymous bidder at a Sotheby's auction held in New York for $6.6 million, plus a 15-percent buyer's premium, and an additional $20 needed to “monetize” the face value of the coin so it would become legal currency , bringing the final sale price to $7,590,020.00, almost twice the previous record for a coin. Half the bid price was to be delivered to the United States Treasury, plus the $20 to monetize the coin, while Stephen Fenton was entitled to the other half . The auction took less than nine minutes.


Ten More Coins
See also: Double Eagle
In August 2005, the U.S. Secret Service announced the recovery of ten additional stolen 1933 Double Eagle gold coins from the family of Philadelphia jeweler Israel Switt, the illicit coin dealer identified by the Secret Service as a party to the theft who admitted selling the first nine double eagles recovered a half century earlier. In September 2004, the coins' ostensible owner, Joan S. Langbord, voluntarily surrendered the 10 coins to the United States Secret Service.


And we know the rest of the story


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1933_Double_Eagle




Chew on that for a while Mystic

they should give the money to me. period.

I think the Mint is just making this story up about any others in existence being illegal. They just want a cut of the money and since the family won't give it to them they won't give them back the coins. These coins could have easily been given as gifts, the government has to prove that any other coins are stolen because their word is not good enough.

Doubt there is a statute of limitations on this. But the fact that the government was kosher with one of the coins being sold I doubt any court will take the coins totally away from the family. They will probably be sold at auction with the Man taking a hefty piece of it.

-HECK!

obviously if the family chose NOT to send it to the mint to get the coins authenticated, they, at some point, would have tried to sell it, and the mint would have gotten involved ANYWAY. So this would have happened later as well. I don't think it's right that the Mint just decided NOT to give it back. I mean what're they gonna do with it? nothing. they could say HEY FAMILY, THESE WERE ILLEGALLY STOLEN, SO YA CAN'T PROFIT FROM THEM, WANNA DONATE THEM? WANNA SPLIT THE PROCEEDS OR JUST KEEP 'EM TO LOOK AT. If I had that choice, I'd say "okay thieves, i guess my only way of making some cash is splitting it with you but i'm spilling it all over the news so everyone knows you guys are dirty gypsies...!" (no offense to gypsies, clean or dirty!)

Well there is a legality question. If someone rips off Washington's powdered wig from the Smithsonian and tries to sell it 70 years later the government is still going to be upset.

The fact they split the profit on the last coin tells you everything you need to know: they want their cut.

-HECK!

What I would like to know was Israel Switt ever questione by the Secret Service and if he was what did he say? I only ask because if he was a suspect he probably was interviewed and most likely gave an explanation of how they csme into his possesion, if you can get that kind of info I reckon you can then backtrack and find out who the main culprit was.
Personally I think it was Mr. Burns after all he stole that trillion dollar bill from the government.

You just broke this case wide open.

-HECK!

AS for them being stolen

There were only supposed to be two coins in existance, to be displayed. All others were supposed to be destroyed because gold was no longer legal tender. But some were stolen. The main culprit was believe to be George McCann, who then gave several coins to Switt, See my link in pervious posts for how they believe they did it.

They circulated for several years before the Secret service found out there were stolen coins in circulation and started an official investigation in 1944 and it’s documented that they tracked down and destroyed the coins they found. 1944 that’s a long time before this case started so if they are lying they laid the ground work for a conspiracy a long time ago. That’s pretty good thinking ahead.

Seven coins were seized in 1944 one was recovered in 1952 but the other made it overseas (this is of the coins sold by Switts that’s why he was questioned, they were traced back to him)

The one that was sold in auction was allowed to because a king in Egypt acquired it and asked for and was granted an export license for the coin from the treasury days before they found out there were 1933 double eagle coins in circulation. Once they found out he was in possession of a coin that was supposed to be destroyed they tried to get it back. IN 1952 the kings possessions went up for sell on auction including the coin and the Egyptian Government agreed to return the coin to US but the coin disappeared.


40 years later Stephen Fenton was arrested and found in possession of the coin. He said it obtained the coin from the collection of King Farouk. After a battle in court of owner ship”the case was settled in 2001 when it was agreed that ownership of the Double Eagle would revert to the United States Government, and the coin could then legally be sold at auction. The United States Treasury issued a document to "issue and monetize" the coin, thereby making it a legal-tender gold coin in the United States.”

That is why it was allowed to be auctioned. And this case is hardly the same. 10 other coins were discovered later by the family of “Israel Switt, the illicit coin dealer identified by the Secret Service as a party to the theft who admitted selling the first nine double eagles recovered” after the first 9 coins were traced back to him he undoubtedly stashed the other 10.



Look I think the government takes too much from the people as it is, but this poll is asking who should get the coins, and they just don’t legally belong to the family. I hope they end up getting something out of all of this but I don’t think they are entitled to it.

Aye, Mister Burns. The bald headed bastard.

I think that the gold coins were actually made from alien metal.

CRDU Agents Nickel and Silverback are going to have to call their old pal in the CRDU X-Case Division Agent Del Dinero to help on this one.

-HECK!

Mystic,
If you have a problem with me or my posts please take it to a pm, otherwise you are off topic and your comments are not adding any value to the thread. Your games seem a bit childish, coming from someone who claims to be older, and mature. You'd think someone with such a high intellect would be above that.


but moving on
I know the last few post I've made were alittle long, but if you read them it will say why one coin was allowed to be sold at auction, and how the coins actually were stolen.

When discussions about rare coins and their rightful owners gets out of hand, Dr. HECK recommends the Chill Pill.

http://www.inreview.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=683350

The Chill Pill. When all else fails, it works.

*Not to be taken while driving a motor vehicle, nursing, walking, talking, running, biking, cliff diving or cheering at a Monster Truck show. If you are not pregnant you may become pregnant. Other side effects include: loss or gain of hair, random erections, sense of bugs under the skin, faintness of breath, laser beams shooting out of your eyes, ESP, ability to do finish a Rubix Cube in 5 minutes, craving to disco and loose booty.

-HECK!

Dr Heck! could I have one of those pills? It could help me feel better. Maybe it's the cure that I've been needing for my back. What do you think?


And I have to say that I agree with Heck... a little CHILLING is needed in here. Taking a thread to the point of childish games isn't needed. I don't like the complaint pm's that I'm getting. So... please CHILL OUT!!!

Dr. Heck! get those pills in the mail, asap.

Dr. HECK's Feel Good Chill Pill is on its way. Unfortunately it has to be smuggled in the interior of my car and is shown actual size.

-HECK!

That's fine... I can chew on it.

It also comes in chocolate coating if you want.

Watch out though, only 10 were made from the FDA. They captured and melted 2 of them. Very rare.

-HECK!

Don't say chocolate... Sherry is going to want them.

Oh yeah, I'll draw a picture of Lucy on it with fudge and whip cream then.

This is starting to sound more like a cake than a pill. I don't know what's going on... haha.

-HECK!

DAMMIT HECK! 250,000 milligrams!?!?!? You trying to kill some folks or what?

A dosage like that would shut down your thing under your lungs that controls breathing. Diaphragm or something. Don't make me research it. Cause I won't do it. No sir. Research it yourself you lazy ****.

Hahaha, freakin' whizzle.

-HECK!

Heck said in post #1
“A handful escaped, however. Two were deliberately set aside and are at the Smithsonian Institution. The Mint has said any others in existence were obtained illegally, but agreed after a lengthy court battle to allow one of the coins to be sold at auction in 2002 for $7.59 million - the highest price ever paid for a coin - after its owner agreed to split the proceeds with the Mint.”

Mystic said in post #35
“As for me not posting any new info...I guess you bypassed the info I passed on to you with the fact that The Mint split the cost with the collector who sold it.”

So I’ll say again as I said in post #22
“So far I havent seen you post any new info, just more off of what HECK posted to begin with.”

Here's an interesting article.
Notice the date. It's well the current case and pay attention to the last paragraph.
It's actually an interesting article.

(CNN) -- The 1933 gold Double Eagle coin has seen its share of jeopardy in a history that could have come straight from "The Maltese Falcon."
Since it was minted in 1933, the coin has been stolen, shipped to Egypt, hidden and almost destroyed by fire twice. The Double Eagle -- an ounce of nearly pure gold -- went up for auction Tuesday night at Sothebys, selling for $6.6 million, plus its $20 face value and a 15 percent fee to the auction house -- a total of $7.6 million.
The tale of the Double Eagle coin begins in 1933, in the depths of the Great Depression, during the first year of Franklin D. Roosevelt's presidency.
"People in the U.S. were hoarding gold. It was undermining the nation's financial system," said David Redden, vice chairman and auctioneer at Sotheby's. "And FDR, almost as soon as he became president, within a couple of days, took us, by executive order, off the gold standard."
With payment or hoarding of gold prohibited, thousands of citizens turned in their gold to the banks. But no one told the U.S. Mint to stop making new gold coins: The mint produced 445,000 new $20 Double Eagle coins after Roosevelt's order, but never put them into circulation.
"Coins are not money until it's monetized -- until the Treasury says they're money," Redden said. "They weren't legal to spend. It was simply a bright gold round disc. They were by order of the Treasury in 1937, melted down."

But some coins escaped destruction: The Secret Service discovered years later that George McCann, the Mint's chief cashier, had stolen 10 of the coins.
In 1944, agents for Egypt's King Farouk -- an eccentric collector of stamps, aspirin bottles, old razor blades and coins -- applied for an export license for a 1933 Gold Double Eagle.
"It wasn't until a few weeks after that license was signed that suddenly everyone realized that an awful mistake had been made," Redden said. "This coin was illegal to own, and in fact clearly had been stolen from the U.S. Mint."
One by one, Treasury Department and other federal agents found nine of the coins, with a tenth discovered in King Farouk's collection. But the political climate stymied attempts to retrieve it.
"In 1944, we were in the middle of a world war, and Egypt stood at the crossroads in the middle of the Mediterranean," Redden said. "It was not, perhaps, precisely the right moment in diplomatic history to go and try to make a claim on a coin."
The coin detectives waited until 1952, when Farouk was overthrown -- and his famous collection put up for auction to get it back.
"The U.S. government recognized that the 1933 Double Eagle was in that collection, and they officially asked the Egyptian government to pull it from the sale and return it as stolen property of the United States," Redden said.
But like a coin in a magician's trick, the Double Eagle disappeared. Authorities lost track of the coin for more than 45 years -- until 1996, when a British coin dealer, Steven Fenton, brought it to the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York City to sell to an American collector.
"The Secret Service -- ever passionate, ever diligent, not letting their man go -- created a sting operation, seized the coin, and actually put poor Mr. Fenton in jail," Redden said.
Fenton got out of jail and went to court, and while he battled the U.S. government over ownership of the coin, the coin itself was stored in what authorities thought was a secure location: a vault at the World Trade Center.
But the coin was fated to survive yet again. Just weeks before the twin towers were destroyed on September 11, the case was settled out of court and the coin was moved to Fort Knox, Kentucky.
The 1933 Double Eagle has been under the watchful eye and heavy guard of the U.S. Mint Police ever since and will be until the coin is sold -- or rather, until the "disc" is sold: It won't technically be legal tender, and legal to own, until the Director of the U.S. Mint signs documents after the auction.
"The irony of ironies is, in order to make this coin totally legal and totally monetized, the buyer will have to give, in addition to millions of dollars it costs to buy it, $20 -- a $20 bill -- to go back to the Treasury," Redden said.
Under the settlement, Fenton and the U.S. government will split proceeds from Tuesday's auction. And what if there are any other purloined 1933 Double Eagles out there? The Mint says they may look like cold, hard cash, but they will be seized and melted down if discovered.


http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/07/30/double.eagle/

Hey guys, let's step to neutral corners and be done with the coin convo. You're both tired of the topic so let it fade away...

-HECK!

Or take it to private message. No one else wants to continue reading this.

I was just reading up on this whole case again and there is one thing I don't understand. Is this Israel Switt was a prime suspect ( and he was) why was he never formally charged I mean you must have some evidence to name somebody prime suspect. Also why was it that Israkle Switt told the secret service that he had sole all of the coins when he must have known he had 10 in his possesion it's hardly being clear and transparent is it and I don't think you would forget about 10 valauble much sought after coins especially when the secret service come asking for them. I also never knew the precise reason why these coins were made illegal which is because Roosevelt took the US off the goold currency system during the depression. There is on eman who most definitly wants those coind meklted down and that is the legitimate owner of the one coin that was sold, his 7 million dollar coin could be worth less that 2 million if another 10 come onto the market.

That is true in a way. If there are other coins that are allowed to be monitized than that would make the value of the one that the bidder paided for go down. But the secrect service said at the time of the auction that it was a one time deal and that if there were anymore coins they would be seized and distroyed.

Switt wasn't the prime suspect in stealing the coins that was U.S. Mint Cashier, George McCann. But he was questioned after coins started being tracked back to him. If the secrect service had know he had 10 more he could have been charged with it then.

I found a timeline somewhere, if I come across it again I'll post a link, it actually explains a bit.

Timeline for coins up to auction

This explains a lot if you can follow can.

My question is if the governement is lying about the coins being illegal to possess why is there so much documentation for them being tracked down and distroyed. The info I've come across was posted around the time of the auction years ago, so they couldn't be making it up now just to rip off this family.

I dont think anyone is arguing that they made this up. The argument is asking if this family has rights to it now since they had it in their possession. If the government allowed one to be sold with themselves taking proceeds, then they should allow this for anyone else.

The poll in this thread asks "who should get the coin?" The Mint already proved by their own actions that this family has rights to this coin.

And BTW....I am not trying to stick it to "the man" as you put it. I happen to work for "the man." My job is to help put scum away, but in order to do that, I have to help prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. From what I can see, if one looks at the past actions of The Mint, its obvious that they have made a mess of what they are trying to say now. If they wanted a piece of the pie, then just say it...but they cannot come into the picture now and try to state something that they didn't stand by, as proven by their own past actions.

if the precedant says that they coins can be auctioned and the money split, I guess this is the best case scenario for this family. Anyone should be happy to take it, quite honestly, because it's still getting a big pile of money they did nothing to earn and probably barely deserve.

When the first coin was sold the US mint made it clear that it was a one off and that any further coins would be melted down.

I don't believe that there is any specific precedent set on this particular case.

However, if they continue to fight, there may be one set since past actions caused them to undermind their now present arguement.

Anyone remember 'Throw Momma From The Train'? That movie with Billy Crystal, Danny DeVito and Mama Fertelli from The Goonies?

DeVito's character had this coin collection but it was just quarters and nickels or whatever. Not worth anything other than it's normal face value. This story made me think of that. Sorry for wasting your time. I just wanted to throw in my two cents.

-HECK!

There is a PRECEDENT set in this case and it is in favor of the mint. I found a story that goes into great detail on the coins. It even includes the court cases.

One collector, L.G. Barnard, refused to turn over his coin, arguing that since he'd bought it from a reputable dealer without knowing it had been stolen, he shouldn't have to give it back. The government sued for title in federal court in Tennessee. Evidence consisted largely of Mint records and Strang's findings, which were persuasive enough to convince the court of the government's case. In a reported decision in 1947, the Tennessee judge ruled that Barnard's 1933 Double Eagle belonged to the U.S. "Since the gold piece was stolen, or, through fraudulent breach of trust, taken from the Philadelphia Mint," the judge found, "[Barnard] ... cannot maintain ownership." Barnard decided not to appeal, and turned his coin over to the Secret Service.

The government had precedent on its side: The old Barnard case from 1947 had established the United States' rights to 1933 Double Eagles stolen from the Mint. If Berke was to maintain Fenton's title to the coin the government now held, he had to show that Fenton's coin was somehow different from L.G. Barnard's -- that it hadn't left the Mint illegally, as Barnard's had, or that it had somehow been made legal…

Berke's investigation bolstered Fenton's contention that his coin was the Farouk coin -- which was crucial to his case once Berke obtained the records of Farouk's export license. If Fenton's coin was the 1933 Double Eagle from the Farouk collection, Berke argued, the government had forfeited its claim to the coin in 1944, when the Treasury Department had given the coin and an export license to the Egyptian Legation.

Though the judge denied Berke's summary judgment motion -- too many facts were in dispute -- the government had several problems in its case. Levine had argued that Fenton's coin was not definitively proved to be the Farouk coin, so the export license was irrelevant. Some of the government's own documents, however, identified the seized coin as the Farouk specimen. And even if a federal judge on a summary judgment motion didn't find the export license dispositive, a jury might. Moreover, who would testify for the government at the trial? With the key witnesses to the 1944 Secret Service investigation dead

Neither the government nor Fenton would retain possession of the coin; instead, the two would split the proceeds of a sale of the 1933 Double Eagle. The Mint and Fenton would both have a say in every aspect of the sale, which, Berke knew, would be a signal event in the history of coin collecting. The Treasury Department would, of course, have to declare the coin legal. But the integrity of the nation's coinage was hardly in continuing danger from the existence of a single 1933 Double Eagle, even if it had been stolen 68 years before.

Levine added a nonnegotiable caveat: Fenton would have to agree to cede title to the Mint. (Levine was protecting the government's rights to any other 1933 Double Eagles, in the event any others ever surfaced.)

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All the coins were stolen. That fact has been established and now we've moved on to, why was this one coin allowed to be auctioned, and since it was than this family should be able to do it to . NO! The coins were stolen, Fenton and the government made a settlement were both party's would split the profit of the coin and Fenton would cede title to the Mint for that one coin yes, because thats the only coin who's legality was an issue because it was granted an license of export to Egypt and there by the Mint forfeited its rights to that coin, they still had rights to all the others.

And there was a precedent set by the Barnard case in 1947.

FYI...which was pretty obvious from the case you set forth. If read correctly it specifically stated: "The Treasury Department would, of course, have to declare the coin legal."

Laws have changed from 1947....do you have any idea how many case laws have changed since that time? You cannot rely on a law from 60-70 years ago without going further to make sure it hasnt changed.

First off:

The Fenton settlement agreement says it sets no precedent for "any other coin or property of the United States, including any other 1933 double eagle that may exist."

"In its complaint against Stephen Fenton, the government said the 1933 double eagles "never became currency or legal tender of the United States" because "the Philadelphia Mint never received an order from the Treasurer directing it to issue and circulate" them. However, the Coinage Act of 1873 spells out a way they could have been legally released without being "issued for circulation." The public could walk into the Mint and legally exchange gold bullion for current coin that was kept on hand for that purpose. President Roosevelt didn't repeal the "exchange" provision until April 5, 1933 — three weeks after the first 1933 double eagles were made."

It has been stated that the goverment was not able to prove and most likely still cannot prove that they were stolen since the above paragraph gave room for the reason some were handed out legally.

In 1954 The Treasury Department amended the Gold Regulations of the original Executive Order to enable the continuance of the exemption of rare coins from the gold confiscation provisions, and they expanded the definition of "coins" with a recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins to include "gold coin made prior to April 5th, 1933 (Federal Register 4309, 4312 1954, as codified in 31 CFR Section 54.20)

If the paragraph above was read correctly and since it is noted that the 1933 Double Eagle coins were on the books of The Mint in March of 1933....this alone gives the family the rights to these coins.

The only valid point I've come up with yet huh??? Yeah okay.

Ahem...anyhow.... (Still waiting for you to prove your thief case, even though the gov't themselves cant prove it..but amazingly enough, you can?)

You stated: "Yes, at which point all of it was supposed to be returned and it was prohibited/ illegal to possess it." If this were the case, then the amended rule would be useless and if these coins were given legally to begin with, then they cannot have them back.

The Bernard precedent was in 1947....case laws have been changed that could make the Bernard argument a moot point.

Things change in case you didnt know: An Illinois state law requires that a man's female companion shall call him "master" while out on a date. Im pretty sure that doesnt happen...and why is that? Things have changed since then.

You keep stating these coins were stolen and you are hard-nosed on that. Can you prove it without a shadow of a doubt? I dont mean because The Mint says so....I mean can you prove it???

If they cannot, which obviously they cannot, and you cannot, then your argument has just been flushed down the toilet.

I'm done, whatever, I'm tired of going in circles, ok Mystic, you've beaten me into submission, your right, I'm wrong, I give up.

A statement that was on the website of The Mint after the Fenton sale:

"We are very pleased with the sale. This coin, once worth only $20, should reinforce the notion that there is tremendous value in coin collecting. It is not only an enjoyable hobby, but also an interesting and historically rich pursuit marked by exciting occasions such as this one."