Muslim leaders are cowards

Post-9/11 Era Forum

An an American, I was raised on the principle of religous tolerance. I beleive that people are inhernelty good and believe this of most muslims.

However, I am appalled at the behavior of muslim leaders in general. As least from what I can see from their leadership, the leaders of the Muslim religion are, in fact, cowards.

By far, the vast majority of what we hear fom them is that America is the root of all evil. Fatwa after fatwa is iisued decrying America and calling for muslims to attack and defy America at every turn.

However, we virtually never hear them decry terrorist acts directed at innocent civilians.

Thus, the behavior of muslim leaders and clerics, either implicity or explcitiy support attacks directed at innocent civilains. Even after 9/11, they were oddly silent on the issue of the attack. Most of what we heard was the rationale for why the towers were attacked and that Islam was a religion of peace. Yet few expressed any real outrage at this slaughter, they focused either on why the terrorists commit these acts (implicitly condoning) or how Muslims should not be vistims of bigoted atttacks. There was very little outrrage at the act itself.

If muslim leaders and clerics really do want peace and seek the respect of the West, then they need to decide whether they support terrorism or not - AND SAY SO.

Again, I don't hold anything against Muslims as individuals as they're people like the rest of us. Their leaders in general, on the other hand, IMHO, either tacitly support terrorism against civilians (an act of cowardice) or they are afraid to come out against it. Thus, my conclusion that Muslim leaders are cowards. Which begs the question: Do their leadersreally seek peaceful coexistence with other religions and peoples?

I am not a Muslim and don't attend services so I don't know the answer to my next question: In the West, everyone talks about how we must try to understand their culture and be sensitive to it. I wonder if there is an equal focus from the Muslim side urging Muslims to understand Western culture and be sensitive to it. Shouldn't this be a two-way street?

In the West, we see peace protests. Has anyone ever seen Muslims protest against terrorism in any magnitude?

(I thought it was intersting recently that Palestinians protested against Hamas the other day, but that was just because Hamas has used their property from which to fire, it was not against the terrorism of Hamas.)

I agree and I am glad you seperate the Leaders from the people. Many Muslims I know feel this same frustration with their governments

And what precisely are American leaders sitting back in comfortable offices 1000's of miles from conflict as they send out orders for others to push buttons and drop bombs?

War has always been evil but now with modern technology it is an evil US citizens can think of as mundane { since it involves almost no risk for them }.

I'll answer my own question as to what US leaders are ... they are cowards.... it is easier to bomb than negotiate { less time consuming too }. The leaders who choose to follow the harder more demanding path of maturity, compassion, reason and compromise will be the heroes of the future.

Do you think the French president would hold a gun on the front line?
Hell no he wouldn't - he would sit there drinking and watching it on TV and in reports.
1000's of miles from the conflict in the comfort of home - no different then the US.
Argument invalid - as no countries leaders are going to enter the conflict themselves.
that is a thing of the past 100's of years past

You know what is the diff between the one which is in the fighting zone and the one which is in his office, both ready to press the button ?


the first one have seen/see/will see innocent people which may die if someone else press the button ......
the second one - and if we take Bush which "escaped" vietnam - will never see these people except on TV ...... and I doubt he will have nightmare about having pushed the button .......

I'm sure that the man you are talking from met at least one innocent, before or after bombing the others .....

Originally posted by Dreamzwalker

No necessarily - the people who push the button SEE what they have done. The president was in pain and agony for the Nuke attack against Japan for the rest of his life -

I certainly hope so The people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't get to "feel" anything after they were vaporised

and hand to hand?
More wars were carried out in that manner then with the new tech - and it wouldn't change it.

Sure it would... it is all about numbers. A man can only kill so many times. Whether you are pushing buttons or face to face it will still way on your conscience sooner or later. By limiting how much damage one soldier can do { by the tech he is using } you limit how attractive war is to small minded leaders since it will not be an easy efficient means of getting wjat they want

No matter how it is done - those that take a life, feel the pinch. I know WWII and Nam vets that have said this. I know a man who had to bomb people and he cried each night KNOWING that he killed them men - even though he didn't see it, he had dirt on his hands - as does the button pusher: and they feel it more then you think after working with and speaking with "Button pushers".

Oh I believe you and just think had this soldier had even less effective weponry he would have that much less to cry about Never forget those that fall in battle don't even get to have regrets to cry over

Children in countries like Iraq will never grow up without fear - as long as brutal leaders kill children.
Yes, I know Iraq is not the only place like this.

I am glad you know this. So here is something else you should also know. The only way to truly change things is to demonstrate a better way. If the US believes that their society is so much more just than show people this. Show it to them by the way you live not the way you try and force them to live No amount of good intentions makes up for the reality of forcing something on someone.... force breeds rebellion

Science needs to stop helping find easy ways for us to take lives in great numbers. Then war would no longer expedient leaders would be forced to think and plan ... not just react

And the people of Pearl Harbor don't matter?
Do not be one sided.
what America did and that's all?
We can talk about the mass murder that Europe committed over the last few hundred years if you want - America has nothing on that since we have only been here for 200 years.

That bomb took Japan out of the war - it would have been much different and France and allies may not have WON without this bombing and after studying history this appears evident.

Word of advice:
In order to persuade someone, you MUST show all the facts - not one side. Example: What was the cause that started the Japan Bombing? This
Add more information on both sides - also, avoid bias assumes - this can turn people away from what they are reading or close their mind - even if what they are reading is true.




The size of the tech makes no difference as it still does the same thing.
our men want to kill everyone?
This could not be farther from the Truth - I have friends over there - one reason why i support this - they need it. People seem to think it's because of Bush - Bush has NOTHING to do with my support.
I have my own personal reasons.

Originally posted by Dreamzwalker
And the people of Pearl Harbor don't matter?
Do not be one sided.
what America did and that's all?
We can talk about the mass murder that Europe committed over the last few hundred years if you want - America has nothing on that since we have only been here for 200 years.

1> Pearl Harbour { the excuse/rationale for atomic bombing? }
was a military base!!!! The Japanese did not bomb Cleveland or Pittsburgh !!!! Using atomic weaponry against civilian cities as a response to an attack on military base hardly seems proportional! Don't get me wrong I despise all killing.... however at least Pearl Harbour was a military target

That bomb took Japan out of the war - it would have been much different and France and allies may not have WON without this bombing and after studying history this appears evident.

This is pure speculation on the US side to try and mitigate the fact that the single greatest atrocity in man's history was committed by them


The size of the tech makes no difference as it still does the same thing.

No as I have pointed out before .... and what should be obvious... the harder one makes it to kill the fewer deaths there will be The more advanced technology gets and makes it easier to kill and in greater numbers the more deaths there will be

our men want to kill everyone?
This could not be farther from the Truth - I have friends over there - one reason why i support this - they need it.

Where did I say your men want to kill everyone? Read my posts don't make stuff up

People seem to think it's because of Bush - Bush has NOTHING to do with my support.
I have my own personal reasons.

Well Bush IS your leader and he did refuse to negotiate and he did decide to violate International Law and he did decide to invade a country that was at best of dubious threat to US Just who should we blame?
What are your reasons?


Take the time to read my posts first though. My stance is that war has to be the final option of a just society not what it turns to when a problem is difficult

Difficult problems require extraordinary patience and perception to solve.... provided one cares about the species and not just some parcel of land designated " your country "

The tech - no matter the size- still takes life. there is no difference between 1 to 3 people - it is still A LIFE.

That bomb took Japan out of the war - it would have been much different and France and allies may not have WON without this bombing and after studying history this appears evident.

This is pure speculation on the US side to try and mitigate the fact that the single greatest atrocity in man's history was committed by them

the Greatest atrocity in man's history was hitler - sorry it was. No matter what you say, that will not change my mind - regardless of the country my family is originally from.


This is not US information to me (so that is an assumption just as it being US speculation is an assumption - I received mine from Japan and that is THEIR belief (the friends i have that are in Japan)- and you told me not to create assumptions and make stuff up


You can blame Bush - but don't speak as if it is ALL AMERICANS -
when millions of Americans walked the street in protest with YOU - the same day as YOU.
(i'm speaking of anti-war characters not you yourself.)
I get sick of hearing "Americans this, Americans that" and i read what people believe and laugh at how ignorant people are about how we live.
The only place I can find some of the things (not saying you) that people believe and say about the American people, are in MOVIES.
Items made up by hollywood for Entertainment.

From your location - your people are no different then Americans in what we like - and don't say they are - i have friends who live in Canada and i lived on the Boarder for years - and i talk and help people from Canada ALL DAY LONG 40 hours a week.

P.S. one life ..... 3 lives..... 1000 lives .... 1 000 000 lives not equal NOT even remotely equal . As the death toll from a single violent action multiplies so does the tragedy of the action

The entertainment object was an example - people seem to believe that the movies reflect who we really are - which is not true - I wasn't reflecting Canada within that.

I know my "Friends" very well- how's 16 years?
Is that pretty good? I spend a lot of time with them in person and when they are not here - on chats.
- and how would you KNOW or who are YOU to judge how WELL I KNOW some of my best friends?
Are you God?
I never said they didn't say it was an evil - don't read words that are not printed- that is an assumption and you asked me not to create them.

Yes, man has done the same crappy things and no matter what anyone wishes - man will continue - as long as men like Saddam exist - there will never be peace.

To believe no war = peace is an illusion -

If we had peace - no one would shoot another, NO COUNTRY would hate the other - every religion in the world would get a long - and so on.

Sorry, the world has never HAD peace.

Nope I am not God and do not presume to judge the quality of your friendships. Sorry for the misunderstanding. My question was as to what you meant when you said you know some Japanese people. You just sort of said that and left it hanging.... in the context of how to view the Atomic bombing of Japanese cities I was uncertain what you were trying to communicate

I disagree with your assumption that peace is not possible. If I believed that I would despair I do not presume it would be easy... but I believe we { as a species } can accomplish the near miraculous if we look beyond our petty differences and work together

I know that may sound naive... but I believe it is possible we only have to get sick and tired of all the blood; repulsed by the injustice and determined to sacrifice what ever is necessary in order to achieve this goal. For peace and prosperity for everyone are the only goals worth fighting for

Those are goals worth fighting for, and man has in one way or another been trying fro 5000 years.

The major difference is religion - I except people regardless of what theirs are, but they must do the same, and then the muslim must like the Buddha (not to smoke LOL), the Buddha must like the Jew, and so forth.
This has been a problem since the beginning.



I believe in something that must happen before peace - but we will not go into it here as it is a personal religious belief .

Elaborate on it as a whole or a particular part?

Okay - i am at work right now and would feel better writing it when I can put more thought into what i'm saying - so i should be able to send it thig evening.