CAIRO, Egypt - A group calling itself al-Qaida in Palestine posted a Web video Wednesday denouncing those who "work in the service of the Jews."
The 5-minute video contains previously-aired clips of Osama bin Laden and slain al-Qaida in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, as well as footage of a masked man sitting alongside an automatic weapon and a rocket-propelled grenade launcher.
"My speech is directed against... those who announce blasphemy against Islam and who are allied with enemies of God and religion, and work in the service of the Jews and the Christians," the man said.
It was unclear how large or sophisticated the group was, or whether it was indeed linked to al-Qaida. It has never claimed responsibility for any attacks.
A senior Palestinian security official in Gaza said he had never heard of Abu Hafs and could not confirm or deny the existence of this group.
The video surfaced as U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice held a news conference with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank.
The man on the video identifies himself as Abu Hafs, a field commander for the group al-Qaida in Palestine. He appeared to criticize Palestinian leaders without naming them, along with Palestinians he viewed as not doing enough for their national cause.
"They own investments, companies and real estate inside and outside the country while the people are starving and without clothes," he said. Big salaries had lured some Palestinians to cooperate with Israel "like a herd of sheep," he said.
Speaking directly to Palestinians, the man said: "In every crisis, your leaders flee abroad and hand you over to killing and horror."
Some Israeli media have reported that al-Qaida was trying to build cells in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, and Israel has indicted two West Bank militants for al-Qaida membership.
The man on the video threatened "a severe war (against) anyone who carries a weapon defending a traitor, an informer or a security coordinator."
"He will be a target for our swords if he does not repent and return to the people's ranks.... Be aware not to accompany them to death," he warned.
The Palestinian security official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said he did not believe there are any Al-Qaida cells present in Gaza, though there may be individuals who sympathize with the group's ideology.
oneofpeace said this in post #1 : So much for peace...
So much for peace what? You are starting to sound more and more like Curley Joe. So Al Qaeda are trying to set up cells in Palestinian areas? What surprises me is they haven't already tried this a couple of years ago. This may not actually be a welcome move for the majority of Palestinians, just like the majority of Iraqis who do not want anything to do with Al Qaeda. Or do you think otherwise, and this is welcome on your part to fit in with your often expressed "Jihadi" view of Muslims?
Nevertheless, you say “this may not be a welcome move by the Palestinians”? Well lets hope so. I don’t exactly have faith in their choice processes.
If al-Qaeda gets a hold of Palestine, there will be no peace period. In fact, I say with Hamas at the helm of Palestine, if al-Qaeda takes up residence there, there is no other path but all out war in the region, finally.
Personally, I hope the Palestinians are a little brighter than that. However given the images of them celebrating in the streets after al-Qaeda struck on 9/11, well you'll have to pardon me if I have a seed of doubt or two.
oneofpeace said this in post #3 :
Personally, I hope the Palestinians are a little brighter than that. However given the images of them celebrating in the streets after al-Qaeda struck on 9/11, well you'll have to pardon me if I have a seed of doubt or two.
I was going to take the curley joe comment back but you've jumped right into his area once again - "However given the images of them celebrating in the streets after al-Qaeda struck on 9/11". peace, you do a great disservice to yourself coming out with such asinine comments. "them" - I presume you mean "the Palestinians" - celebrating, was some video of about 5 people dancing in the street. Which was the only video of "celebrating" I saw, and it was this same short video which was shown over and over again ad nauseam.
quote:
Personally, I hope the Palestinians are a little brighter than that.
"The Palestinians", over 5 million of them, may not have a great deal of say in whether Al Qaeda set up some kind of operations in the occupied territories. Just like the US and the Iraqi government don't have a lot of choice whether or not Al Qaeda base themselves in Iraq, or the USA, or Britain etc.
h@ts wrote
I was going to take the curley joe comment back but you've jumped right into his area once again - "However given the images of them celebrating in the streets after al-Qaeda struck on 9/11". peace, you do a great disservice to yourself coming out with such asinine comments. "them" - I presume you mean "the Palestinians" - celebrating, was some video of about 5 people dancing in the street. Which was the only video of "celebrating" I saw, and it was this same short video which was shown over and over again ad nauseam.
What’s nauseating is your continued efforts to be blinded by your prejudices. Five people celebrating? Maybe you only get one channel or that internet of yours doesn’t allow you to see through those jaded glasses you consistently wear. Let’s just hope your computer works with this link I’m posting now.
If that doesn’t seem to work for you, then how about this?
“According to the AP, Israel Radio and the Jerusalem Post, the Palestinians threatened news organizations and their workers in an effort to stop the broadcast of video, and the publishing of photographs, showing large crowds of Palestinians in Nablus and Ramallah joyfully celebrating the deadly 9/11 terrorist attacks against Americans. Presumably they understood that such video and photos would be repugnant to Americans — and millions of others around the world — and might damage their image.” Source
quote:
"The Palestinians", over 5 million of them, may not have a great deal of say in whether Al Qaeda set up some kind of operations in the occupied territories. Just like the US and the Iraqi government don't have a lot of choice whether or not Al Qaeda base themselves in Iraq, or the USA, or Britain etc.
Another jaded remark here. First, al-Qaeda doesn’t exist in the US or Britain like they do in Iraq. Clearly Islamic militants garner much support in Muslim countries from civilians who either share their ideologies or are too scared to protest against them.
If Palestinians want to separate themselves from al-Qaeda, they can do so and lets hope they do. Given the level of violence the world’s seen with Islamic militancy and especially al-Qaeda, for you to blast me for having the perceptions I do seems more than a bit unreasonable.
oneofpeace said this in post #5 :
[B]What’s nauseating is your continued efforts to be blinded by your prejudices.
Prejudice? It's you that is posting these ludicrous generalisations, showing an inability to reason with any depth anymore, and your constant assertions and implications that lump a whole group of people together as the problem. Prejudiced? You started this post with the inane comment - "So much for peace..."
quote:
Five people celebrating? Maybe you only get one channel or that internet of yours doesn’t allow you to see through those jaded glasses you consistently wear. Let’s just hope your computer works with this link I’m posting now.
Are you claiming that you had access to channels showing "the Palestinians" celebrating after the 9/11 attack? Or did you find these websites recently?
quote:
The September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attack occasioned apparent spontaneous outbreaks of public celebration in a number of Arab Muslim communities. Press and television coverage of these celebrations were met with shock and outrage in the United States. However, later media analysis cast doubt on the motivations and extent of the celebrations, and many Muslim groups moved to distance themselves from such behaviour.
However, the US media did not widely circulate European media reports (by the German weeklies Der Spiegel and Stern, by the German public TV magazine Panorama and by the Swedish Dagens Nyheter) that while the footage was indeed correctly dated, reporters may have partly staged one of the scenes. One woman later claimed she was offered a piece of pie for whooping it up in front of the camera. It is unclear whether it was explained to the woman what she was supposedly celebrating, nor is it clear whether the person who offered her the treat was a reporter.
Considering the history and support US governments give to Israel to buy bombs, planes, tanks, guns etc I am surprised there weren't more people in the occupied territories celebrating the 9/11 attacks.
h@ts wrote
Prejudice? It's you that is posting these ludicrous generalisations, showing an inability to reason with any depth anymore, ……..You started this post with the inane comment - "So much for peace..."
h@ts were talking abou al Qaeda here. Since when have they ever been equivocated with peace?
My point was if they have succeeded in infiltrating into Palestine, it will be the beginning of WWIII. If you think this is generalizations of Palestinians, then so be it however if they accept al-Qaeda like they do Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Brigade and the rest of them, then there will be NO PEACE POSSIBLE EVER!!!
quote:
Are you claiming that you had access to channels showing "the Palestinians" celebrating after the 9/11 attack? Or did you find these websites recently?
No, what I’m saying is that the day of 9/11, I saw large crowds of Palestinians on TV celebrating with dancing in the streets. Certainly there were more than 5 and Arafat said on that day he condemned the act. Then suddenly there was a blackout of Palestinian areas.
You do the math.
quote:
Considering the history and support US governments give to Israel to buy bombs, planes, tanks, guns etc I am surprised there weren't more people in the occupied territories celebrating the 9/11 attacks.
I really don’t think I need to reply to this. I now know why you subscribe to so many ridiculous positions in these forums.
h@ts: Considering the history and support US governments give to Israel to buy bombs, planes, tanks, guns etc I am surprised there weren't more people in the occupied territories celebrating the 9/11 attacks.
oneofpeace:I really don’t think I need to reply to this. I now know why you subscribe to so many ridiculous positions in these forums.
Please do reply to it. You brought up the idea about "them", "the Palestinians" "celebrating in the streets after al-Qaeda struck on 9/11", in a post that started off with the comment - "So much for peace..."
Did or didn't it surprise you that as you said "the Palestinians" were "celebrating" the 9/11 attack?
And why do you think you "now know" why I "subscribe to so many ridiculous positions in these forums"?
Al Quedia in Palestine is nothing at all it's probably one of two things either a bunch of jumped up terrorisst who don't have the intelligence, money, men or weapons to carry out an attack but will jump on Al Queida coattails to gain fear and recognition or it's a sleeper cell like Al Queida in the UK, America or Egypt the group will carry out an attack and the vanish for a few years.
Whatever it is it will struggle for volunteers as many Muslims in the area have seen Al Quieda for what is which is nothing more than a terror group that but when Palestinians see groups like Hamas military wing and Al Axa Martyrs Brigade they see freedom fighters and that is more attractive to them.
lodgebo said this in post #9 : Al Quieda for what is which is nothing more than a terror group that but when Palestinians see groups like Hamas military wing and Al Axa Martyrs Brigade they see freedom fighters and that is more attractive to them.
A good point. Lumping all terrorist organisations into one neat group is the way politicians want the public to see the problem. Al Aksa Martyr Brigade are a secular group - why would they want anything to do with a militant Islamic fundamentalist group like Al Qaeda.
Al Qaeda are not welcome in countries like Iran either (Al Qaeda are Sunni, Iran is mainly Shia) and Iran backs Hamas, so Al Qaeda can't just easily walk into the occupied territories and say hi, we've come to help out.
A good point. Lumping all terrorist organisations into one neat group is the way politicians want the public to see the problem. Al Aksa Martyr Brigade are a secular group - why would they want anything to do with a militant Islamic fundamentalist group like Al Qaeda.
Al Qaeda are not welcome in countries like Iran either (Al Qaeda are Sunni, Iran is mainly Shia) and Iran backs Hamas, so Al Qaeda can't just easily walk into the occupied territories and say hi, we've come to help out.
Well half his point was good, the part you didn't quote.
Hamas, which is now in power, *is* a fundamenalist religous group. Moreover, the views of Hamas, AMB and Al Quaeda with respect to the "Zionist question" are in total lockstep. There is zero disagreement on the ultiamte objective, even if they do sometimes disagree about what measures to pursue at a given moment in time. And Al Quaeda's other major grievance had to do with the Gulf War. Since better than 85% of the total population of the Arab world was against U.S. intervention, I'd be surprised if the Palestinians were some kind of special case there, and not also in lockstep with Al Quaeda on that issue as well.
Interesting bit of sophistry that you choose to mention AMB and not Hamas in making your point. Anyway, Al-Aksa Martyr Brigades is hardly an organization that is secular in principle or core philosophy, in spite of their association with Fatah, a political party. That's like saying the extreme right orthodox parties in Israel are secular because they form themselves into political parties and run for election. Al-Aksa, BTW, is a *mosque* that sits on the temple mount in Jerusalem, and a martyr, in Islamic lexicon, is one who gives his life in service of Jihad. AMB had people blowing themselves up, k? And they weren't going to do that without some promise of Reward afterwords. People might risk their lives for purely political causes, but generally they don't commit suicide without there being a strong spiritual component.
One could suppose that Palestinians support the detonation of bombs in bus stations and restaurants in Israel, but not the flying of commercial aircraft into skyscrapers in New York. But after all, the difference is merely one of quantity, not quality. Anyway, I think the large scale celebrations of the 9/11 event which quite clearly were depicted on television at the time suggest otherwise, at least for a portion of the Palestinian population.
That said, I think the rest of lodgebo's post was probably correct. Al Quaeda is not the centralized organization that people think it is. It's really just an umbrella, and it is already tied to regional terrorist groups. Hence, in a sense, having "Al Quaeda" there isn't anything new and probably isn't a sign of anything new to come. All Al Quaeda really is is a globalization of more regionally focused Islamic terror groups. And it isn't much of an organization in and of itself - it's more of a group that coordinates existing groups.
Well half his point was good, the part you didn't quote.
Hamas, which is now in power, *is* a fundamenalist religous group. Moreover, the views of Hamas, AMB and Al Quaeda with respect to the "Zionist question" are in total lockstep. There is zero disagreement on the ultiamte objective, even if they do sometimes disagree about what measures to pursue at a given moment in time. And Al Quaeda's other major grievance had to do with the Gulf War. Since better than 85% of the total population of the Arab world was against U.S. intervention, I'd be surprised if the Palestinians were some kind of special case there, and not also in lockstep with Al Quaeda on that issue as well.
Interesting bit of sophistry that you choose to mention AMB and not Hamas in making your point. Anyway, Al-Aksa Martyr Brigades is hardly an organization that is secular in principle or core philosophy, in spite of their association with Fatah, a political party. That's like saying the extreme right orthodox parties in Israel are secular because they form themselves into political parties and run for election. Al-Aksa, BTW, is a *mosque* that sits on the temple mount in Jerusalem, and a martyr, in Islamic lexicon, is one who gives his life in service of Jihad. AMB had people blowing themselves up, k? And they weren't going to do that without some promise of Reward afterwords. People might risk their lives for purely political causes, but generally they don't commit suicide without there being a strong spiritual component.
One could suppose that Palestinians support the detonation of bombs in bus stations and restaurants in Israel, but not the flying of commercial aircraft into skyscrapers in New York. But after all, the difference is merely one of quantity, not quality. Anyway, I think the large scale celebrations of the 9/11 event which quite clearly were depicted on television at the time suggest otherwise, at least for a portion of the Palestinian population.
That said, I think the rest of lodgebo's post was probably correct. Al Quaeda is not the centralized organization that people think it is. It's really just an umbrella, and it is already tied to regional terrorist groups. Hence, in a sense, having "Al Quaeda" there isn't anything new and probably isn't a sign of anything new to come. All Al Quaeda really is is a globalization of more regionally focused Islamic terror groups. And it isn't much of an organization in and of itself - it's more of a group that coordinates existing groups.
- woolfe
If you want to simplify the conflict and the groups involved that's your choice. Do you think that makes it easier to understand or easier to push a certain agenda, whatever that might be?
AQ is becoming a moniker for all things terrorist. I have no doubt offshoot or rag tag wannabe's are using the name to gain support or foster their martyrdom. On the flip side, any and all terrorist action can be labeled as AQ by the U.S. or Britian and treated accordingly. Shades of the Red Scare back in the day.
I agree Heck with what you say here but the actions of Islamic militants are eerily similar. AQ wouldn’t approach the boy scouts trying to recruit them for their cause but rather another group who has similar agendas and tactics as theirs.
In the grand scheme of things, although groups like Hamas and AMB really doesn’t want to be associated with AQ because of obvious reasons, I wouldn’t be surprised that if someday AQ ends up residing in Palestine because it’s not really that far fetched.
And you know the return of the Taliban in Afghanistan (something the administration and the Dubyanauts don't wanna talk about) would harbor every freak show group wanting to call themselves AQ. Horrible.
So much for peace what? You are starting to sound more and more like Curley Joe. So Al Qaeda are trying to set up cells in Palestinian areas? What surprises me is they haven't already tried this a couple of years ago. This may not actually be a welcome move for the majority of Palestinians, just like the majority of Iraqis who do not want anything to do with Al Qaeda. Or do you think otherwise, and this is welcome on your part to fit in with your often expressed "Jihadi" view of Muslims?
lmao
i love how in the dark and naive you are. cracks me up.
Here's some news for you , but i'm sure you'll continue to support terror as you always do. your right, the world is wrong, even if it comes from the world leaders all over. your still right. just like you saying that the information from the UN that showed hiz'ballah started the war was wrong and incorrect. Well, here's another for you.
**************************************************
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**
Sep. 10, 2006 19:12 | Updated Sep. 10, 2006 19:17
Poll: More Palestinians support terrror
**
The latest public opinion poll in the Palestinian Authority territories shows that some 61 percent of Palestinians support "military operations" inside Israel compared with only 32% who reject such attacks.
The poll, conducted by the Center for Opinion Polls and Survey Studies at An-Najah University in Nablus, covered some 1,360 Palestinians whose age group is above 18. Its margin of error is about 3%.
Although the center did not specify the nature of the "military operations," many Palestinians interpret the term as a reference to suicide bombings inside Israeli cities.
This is the first poll in several years that shows growing support among Palestinians for launching terror attacks inside Israel. The results reflect an increased trend of radicalism among the Palestinian public.
Previous polls conducted by different Palestinian organizations showed that a majority of Palestinians would like to see such attacks restricted only to the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The latest poll, too, indicated that over 62% of the Palestinians support concentrating the "resistance" within these territories.
Yet, while 42.5% of those surveyed rejected the launching of rockets from the Gaza Strip into Israel, 36% said they were opposed to such attacks only "because they hurt the Palestinian cause."
According to the poll, 36% of the Palestinians believe that "the best form of resistance that best serves the Palestinian cause is the armed struggle against Israel."
By contrast, only 13% said they prefer to see a "diplomatic struggle" against Israel through peaceful means.
Regarding the political and financial crisis in PA-controlled territories, about 66% of the Palestinians expressed pessimism towards the general situation.
A vast majority of 88% of the Palestinians complained that they are lacking security for themselves, their families and properties.
The poll also showed that a large number of Palestinians, 73% support the idea of a national-unity government.
The thing with that report is that it is totally useless for a whole number of reasons. Firstly the people the number of people they asked, less than 1500 but there are between 2.5 and 3.8 million Palestininans so I don't thjink that tiny number polles can gave a fair reflection of the whole state. Also we know that these things change on a daily basis. It also depends on the area if you ask in a Hamas stronghold you will most likely get the response you are looking for, I would how many people were polled in the small Christian area of Palestine I would be surprised if the pollsters even left Nablus to be honest, it also depends of the time you ask for example if Israel was still in Lebanon or if Israel had launched troops into or attacked the Palestininan areas then of course you would get that kind of response won't you, the sex of who you ask we know that on the whole men are mnore likely to be radicalsied than women ( especially in the 18 - 26 age group did they ask 680 women I don't know does not say.
So I would not read to much into any poll because we know that if you pick the right time, day, people and area you can get a poll to say whatever you want also the number asked in relation to the population is tiny only 1360 asked from a population of 3 million.
Dreamzwalker said this in post #16 :
lmao
i love how in the dark and naive you are. cracks me up.
Here's some news for you , but i'm sure you'll continue to support terror as you always do.
Yeah yeah yeah, blah blah blah, you're either with us or with the terrorist * Yawn *
quote:
your right, the world is wrong
You may think that way, I don't. Things are never b&w.
quote:
even if it comes from the world leaders all over.
"all over"! Wow, so maybe you might be generalising a bit there, don't you think?
quote:
just like you saying that the information from the UN that showed hiz'ballah started the war was wrong and incorrect. Well, here's another for you.
The UN says a lot of things. Do you want a grown up debate about the UN and resolutions and things the UN says?
quote:
*******************************************
**************************************************
*********
Sep. 10, 2006 19:12 | Updated Sep. 10, 2006 19:17
Poll: More Palestinians support terrror
**
The latest public opinion poll in the Palestinian Authority territories shows that some 61 percent of Palestinians support "military operations" inside Israel compared with only 32% who reject such attacks.
The poll, conducted by the Center for Opinion Polls and Survey Studies at An-Najah University in Nablus, covered some 1,360 Palestinians whose age group is above 18. Its margin of error is about 3%.
Although the center did not specify the nature of the "military operations," many Palestinians interpret the term as a reference to suicide bombings inside Israeli cities.
This is the first poll in several years that shows growing support among Palestinians for launching terror attacks inside Israel. The results reflect an increased trend of radicalism among the Palestinian public.
Previous polls conducted by different Palestinian organizations showed that a majority of Palestinians would like to see such attacks restricted only to the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The latest poll, too, indicated that over 62% of the Palestinians support concentrating the "resistance" within these territories.
Yet, while 42.5% of those surveyed rejected the launching of rockets from the Gaza Strip into Israel, 36% said they were opposed to such attacks only "because they hurt the Palestinian cause."
According to the poll, 36% of the Palestinians believe that "the best form of resistance that best serves the Palestinian cause is the armed struggle against Israel."
By contrast, only 13% said they prefer to see a "diplomatic struggle" against Israel through peaceful means.
Regarding the political and financial crisis in PA-controlled territories, about 66% of the Palestinians expressed pessimism towards the general situation.
A vast majority of 88% of the Palestinians complained that they are lacking security for themselves, their families and properties.
The poll also showed that a large number of Palestinians, 73% support the idea of a national-unity government.
Well, don't think they will mind al'q setting up suicide stations.
Think this sums it up.
And so in your opinion these polls mean Al Qaeda will be welcomed in the occupied territories? Grow up. Al Qaeda clearly do not want the same thing that many Palastinians want. The fact that they use the same methods is irrelevant, and your inability to grasp this shows you lack the capacity to think (the nazis and the US military in WWII both used guns and tanks and planes).
Both Al Qaeda and the Palastinians terrorists use suicide bombings because it works and they haven't got access to helicopters and tanks. You may not be able to grasp that idea, because being able to grasp such things would in your world mean you must be a terrorist.
Also the fact that many Palastinians support suicide bombers is hardly surprising. Many Israelis support the killing of Palastinians. So what?
h@ts wrote
The fact that they use the same methods is irrelevant, and your inability to grasp this shows you lack the capacity…..
Both Al Qaeda and the Palastinians terrorists use suicide bombings because it works and they haven't got access to helicopters and tanks.
I started to let this slide once again but I just can’t. You know what’s unbelievable is that you and others like you, believe that such tactics aren’t responsible for the crack down on Palestinians we see today with checkpoints, roadblocks, incursions, etc.
It’s as if you justify the acts because if they don’t have tanks and helicopters then everyone they can blow up that are jews is fair game. Effective? Maybe so but when one of those helicopters put a missile through a suicide vest making factory embedded in the middle of a civilian neighborhood because “what else can they do to protect themselves” don’t find it perplexing when the rest of the world that “doesn’t care” see the position of those like yourself wanting to scream foul.
I started to let this slide once again but I just can’t. You know what’s unbelievable is that you and others like you, believe that such tactics aren’t responsible for the crack down on Palestinians we see today with checkpoints, roadblocks, incursions, etc.
Occupation, checkpoints, assassinations, murdering journalists, bulldozing houses, kidnapping, stealing land, expanding the occupation, erecting walls, destroying countries, etc - it must be the Palastinians that caused all that, of course.
btw - I don't "justify" acts of terrorism. But you wouldn't understand that because your view is - you're either with us or with the terrorist.
Yeah I see your point. I guess the Arabs and Palestinians are just sitting in their living rooms eating their goat cheese and crackers and sipping tea while Israelis conjure up new ideas to torture and kill them and steal their land.
Never mind, the bombings of buses, malls, restaurants and supermarkets. Never mind the hurling of rockets into Israel and the kidnappings and killings of
Israeli citizens. Never mind the outright call for Israel’s destruction and the numerous wars they initiated claiming before the world that they would drive Israel into the sea.
How dare Israelis set up roadblocks when Palestinians transfer arms and bombs in ambulances and civilian delivery trucks. Never mind the arming of terrorist organizations like Hezbollah that shoot ordinances into their country every other day. How dare Israel have incursions when Palestinians are making explosive vests in their own homes.
Wow, I can see how you can get angry at the bad Israelis that keep harassing the poor innocent Palestinians and Arabs in that region. How dare I even question this?
As for that asinine remark about my “being with us or against us” mentality, lets just say I see why you can’t think outside of your “big bad Israeli” sand box but it’s what I’ve come to expect from you as you have so well demonstrated in these forums.
oneofpeace said this in post #21 :
[B]while Israelis conjure up new ideas to torture and kill them and steal their land.
There are Palastinians that want to kill Jews but there are Jews that feel the same about the Palastinians. Stop with the constant - Jews in this conflict are the victims crap. They are stealing land and expanding the territories. You even agreed that this was wrong yourself.
quote:
Never mind, the bombings of buses, malls, restaurants and supermarkets. Never mind the hurling of rockets into Israel and the kidnappings and killings of Israeli citizens. Never mind the outright call for Israel’s destruction and the numerous wars they initiated claiming before the world that they would drive Israel into the sea.
Yes they do all that and more. And some Isrealis are going to make sure the Palastinians are driven into th sea, with full backing from the US.
quote:
How dare Israelis set up roadblocks when Palestinians transfer arms and bombs in ambulances and civilian delivery trucks. Never mind the arming of terrorist organizations like Hezbollah that shoot ordinances into their country every other day. How dare Israel have incursions when Palestinians are making explosive vests in their own homes.
Palastinians are the problem blah blah blah etc.
quote:
Wow, I can see how you can get angry at the bad Israelis that keep harassing the poor innocent Palestinians and Arabs in that region. How dare I even question this?
Yes beleieve it or not Israelis can be bad. Israelis can be good. Palastinians likewise.
quote:
As for that asinine remark about my “being with us or against us” mentality, lets just say I see why you can’t think outside of your “big bad Israeli” sand box but it’s what I’ve come to expect from you as you have so well demonstrated in these forums.
It's not asanine, it's what you sound like sometimes.
h@ts wrote
There are Palastinians that want to kill Jews but there are Jews that feel the same about the Palastinians. Stop with the constant - Jews in this conflict are the victims crap. They are stealing land and expanding the territories. You even agreed that this was wrong yourself.
My point is simply this h@ts. Arabs in that region rejected any compromise for years and now we see the fruit of that rejection. You often speak of the U.N. and their resolutions. Well history shows Arabs totally disregarded the U.N. until they realized they couldn’t achieve their goal then cried foul after they lost the spoils.
This conflict has history and that is how I perceive it. Of course there are Jews that want to kill Palestinians but given the history of the region, I believe Israelis are the ones who has been defending themselves.
Today, Israel now takes advantage of their superiority. It’s easy to look at the situation today and point the finger at Israel but when a small country as Israel has had war with every neighbor on their borders and in the region, then something is definitely wrong.
quote:
Yes they do all that and more. And some Isrealis are going to make sure the Palastinians are driven into th sea, with full backing from the US.
I fail to understand this logic. So you have an enemy dedicated to your destruction and you think there wouldn’t be Israelis with harsh feelins? Talk about having your cake and eat it.
quote:
Yes beleieve it or not Israelis can be bad. Israelis can be good. Palastinians likewise.
H@ts look at the history of the region not what transpires today. For decades Arabs refused any compromise that would include a Jewish state. Palestinians are stuck in camps for more than half a century while hypocritical Arabs point at how bad Israel has treated them.
This conflict didn’t start with the WB & Gaza so what makes you think it will end there?
quote:
It's not asanine, it's what you sound like sometimes.
No, it’s what you want to hear all the time. Because I see Arabs as totally uncompromising doesn’t mean I don’t see what’s going on. However given the propensity of violence within Arab cultures around the region, well you do the math.
Yep - tough one - ancient enemies who are both certain they are right, who both think god's on their team and the other mob are evil, and who just don't seem to have the will to try and get along, to compromise and try to live and work and get along together.
Still - can't help agreeing with the Israeli argument of What else are we gonna do? There's idiots who want to kill themselves in our cafes and buses, and who fire missiles at us. You want us to allow this? Not gonna happen.
But then the Israeli response is to send missiles into residential communities which blows the heads of little kiddies. I think they could probably think that one through, and try not to kill little kiddies or other innocents. They could leave me alone, for instance, but then I'm sitting in a cafe in Sydney - by Coogee Beach, infact - and hopefully are under their radar.
Perhaps that's the lesson for both, get under the radar, and give the other mob no reason to want to kill you. Probably not that simple.
Perhaps they could look to Northern Ireland for an idea. Probably they'll have to wait a couple years for another US President, hopefully one who's travelled a bit more than ol' Dubya had, who has met a few foreigners, and doesn't have evil and possibly insane idealogues like Cheney and Rummy telling him about evil-doers.
And while the Crusaders are fighting the war for oil, it's gonna make it hard to convince your average Palestinian the US has their interests at heart, particularly when all the billion dollars in aid finances helicopter missile gun-ships, etc.
I can't see them not hating each other laying down arms for a while yet. Doesn't look like they're tired of it anyway.
oneofpeace said this in post #23 :
[B]This conflict has history and that is how I perceive it. Of course there are Jews that want to kill Palestinians but given the history of the region, I believe Israelis are the ones who has been defending themselves.
Except for those Jews who want to make sure that a Palestinian state becomes unviable, ie wipe the Palestinians off the map!
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I fail to understand this logic. So you have an enemy dedicated to your destruction and you think there wouldn’t be Israelis with harsh feelins?
Now let's see if you can turn your own logic round - some Israelis want the Palestinians wiped off the map, and are close to succeeding in this ambition. So Palastinians with harsh feeling perhaps, or is that feeling only reserved for Israelis?
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H@ts look at the history of the region not what transpires today. For decades Arabs refused any compromise that would include a Jewish state.
The history: Israel has a state which is expanding. The Palestinians, on the other hand, continue to lose land, thus even the possibility of having anywhere to create a state. Wiped off the map!
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Because I see Arabs as totally uncompromising doesn’t mean I don’t see what’s going on.
Likewise, I see Israelis totally uncompromising.
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However given the propensity of violence within Arab cultures around the region, well you do the math.
Unlike our own ever so peaceful culture. Israel would never destroy a country. American would never start an unprovoked war. As you keep saying - it's the Arabs who made us do it.
h@ts wrote
Except for those Jews who want to make sure that a Palestinian state becomes unviable, ie wipe the Palestinians off the map!
Can you show me one website dedicated to that cause? Are there any Jews today that publicly call for the extermination of Palestinians? Who are these “Jews” you speak of that want to “wipe the Palestinians off the map”?
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Now let's see if you can turn your own logic round - some Israelis want the Palestinians wiped off the map, and are close to succeeding in this ambition.
Ok, so where are the hooded Israelis blowing up Palestinians and declaring a holy war? Maybe I missed that or something.
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So Palastinians with harsh feeling perhaps, or is that feeling only reserved for Israelis?
After decades of declaring Israel invalid and starting wars to annihilate them, then complain because of the loses directly attributed to those decisions, I find it hard to understand why they all cry foul. I can imagine if they were successful, I wonder if they would be trying to return any gains from a war “they” initiated.
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The history: Israel has a state which is expanding. The Palestinians, on the other hand, continue to lose land,
And this is a direct result of them not accepting any solution but permanent annihilation of Israel period. Palestinians could have claimed statehood in 48 just like Israel but they chose war several times. Now they complain of losing land when they did nothing but attack Israel every since.
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Likewise, I see Israelis totally uncompromising.
I see what you mean. It was Israel who rejected every attempt for a viable two state solution simultaneously like the Palestinians and Arabs did in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s. How dare them repel efforts to annihilate their state and run these innocent Arabs off into refugee camps.
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Unlike our own ever so peaceful culture. Israel would never destroy a country. American would never start an unprovoked war. As you keep saying - it's the Arabs who made us do it.
Cut me a break. Just look at the cultures today. There are more little Jihadist states within Arab states than I care to count running around killing everyone that don’t share their ideologies. I can see how you can get them confused with Britain & US cultures. In fact, I think I hear AK47’s going off in the near distance. I better duck.
You consistently amaze me at how you trivialize the obvious. No the US or Britain isn’t without blame for initiating occasional violence but clearly there’s a difference between the behaviors of our cultures. The fact that that line is blurred to you is pretty scary.
I hope many don’t share that same perception in your country. God forbid someone says something about Christianity. I can see Britons now around the world burning stores and attacking everyone they see wrapped in garb while chanting God is great and death to the infidels.
oneofpeace said this in post #26 : Can you show me one website dedicated to that cause? Are there any Jews today that publicly call for the extermination of Palestinians? Who are these “Jews” you speak of that want to “wipe the Palestinians off the map”?
I've answered this several times.
Israel is EXPANDING on the illigally occupied territories. It is building walls that seperate families, and seperate people from hospitals and schools etc. It is making a viable Palastinian state impossible. Israel is wiping out the chance of there ever being a Palastinian state. Why are you asking me about Websites - this is Israeli government policy that is HAPPENING!
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Ok, so where are the hooded Israelis blowing up Palestinians and declaring a holy war? Maybe I missed that or something.
What is this declaration crap you keep wanting to hear, that would mean that Israel is doing something wrong. Read the above. Israel don't need to sloganise or declare anything. They just act! And with the billions of dollars of aid for weapons and bombs that American hands to them.
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After decades of declaring Israel invalid and starting wars to annihilate them, then complain because of the loses directly attributed to those decisions, I find it hard to understand why they all cry foul.
Because you don't want to understand.
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I can imagine if they were successful, I wonder if they would be trying to return any gains from a war “they” initiated.
Well "they" haven't had that opportunity so we'll never know.
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How dare them repel efforts to annihilate their state and run these innocent Arabs off into refugee camps.
Arabs "annihilate" the state of Israel as we see clearly every day on the news. While the Israelis do nothing but defend themselves. Don't you see how biased you are. Why is that?
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You consistently amaze me at how you trivialize the obvious. No the US or Britain isn’t without blame for initiating occasional violence but clearly there’s a difference between the behaviors of our cultures.
That's right, Arabs are mindless, violent, ignorant, lunatic savages. We on the other hand are honorable and civilised and bring peace and harmony and fluffiness everywhere we go.
Of course it helps that we have bigger weapons which means we can arrogantly stride the world enforcing our will on whoever we choose, with clinical, calculated violence wherever appropriate. Or that's the theory, apparently.
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I hope many don’t share that same perception in your country. God forbid someone says something about Christianity. I can see Britons now around the world burning stores and attacking everyone they see wrapped in garb while chanting God is great and death to the infidels.
Of course not. Only mindless, violent, ignorant, lunatic savage Arabs behave in such a manner.
h@ts wrote
Israel is EXPANDING on the illigally occupied territories. It is building walls that seperate families, and seperate people from hospitals and schools etc. It is making a viable Palastinian state impossible….
…this is Israeli government policy that is HAPPENING!
This still isn’t a declaration of intent as we hear from Arabs and Palestinian militias around the region. However I will address this response.
Israel’s government is responsible to its people not Palestinians. The wall has been built in an effort to repel the onslaught of suicide bombers infiltrating into Israel. The wall (as is the road blocks and incursions they complain of) are a direct result of Palestinian efforts of indiscriminate violence projected against Israel’s society.
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Israel don't need to sloganise or declare anything. They just act! And with the billions of dollars of aid for weapons and bombs that American hands to them.
So Palestinians “need to sloganize or declare” in order to enact the violence on Israel’s populous? And once again, the US is at fault for supporting Israel? I’ve already pointed out Israel’s greatest successes against the many wars they’ve had with their neighbors came without the support you mention above.
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Because you don't want to understand.
No I think you don’t want to understand h@ts. You can’t continue to initiate violence and expect there to be no consequences for your actions no matter who is doing it. It’s foolish to keep picking with the bigger guy then complains when he blackens your eye saying “his eye isn’t black”.
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Well "they" haven't had that opportunity so we'll never know
Sure we know exactly because they “declared their intent” the many times they rejected any peace efforts. The fact that you want to ignore their declarations only highlights your bias.
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Arabs "annihilate" the state of Israel as we see clearly every day on the news. While the Israelis do nothing but defend themselves. Don't you see how biased you are. Why is that?
You conveniently left out a word. I said “efforts” to annihilate. Of course if you leave that word in then the rest of your sentence is unresponsive.
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That's right, Arabs are mindless, violent, ignorant, lunatic savages. We on the other hand are honorable and civilised and bring peace and harmony and fluffiness everywhere we go.
Again you’ve read exactly what you wanted to read into my statement instead of seeing what I posted but you have the propensity to do that. I should expect that by now.
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Of course it helps that we have bigger weapons which means we can arrogantly stride the world enforcing our will on whoever we choose, with clinical, calculated violence wherever appropriate.
You know you have a point here no matter how dismissive you appear to be in these forums. I won’t pretend to defend that but I do know this. We don’t inflict this same “violence” on our own societies.
My point was simply this. Use your eyes and look at the many Islamic militants around the world. Whether you want to accept this fact or not, there is a difference between our two societies and it has nothing to do with weaponry.
h@ts wrote
Israel is EXPANDING on the illigally occupied territories. It is building walls that seperate families, and seperate people from hospitals and schools etc. It is making a viable Palastinian state impossible….
…this is Israeli government policy that is HAPPENING!
This still isn’t a declaration of intent as we hear from Arabs and Palestinian militias around the region. However I will address this response.
Israel’s government is responsible to its people not Palestinians. The wall has been built in an effort to repel the onslaught of suicide bombers infiltrating into Israel. The wall (as is the road blocks and incursions they complain of) are a direct result of Palestinian efforts of indiscriminate violence projected against Israel’s society.
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Israel don't need to sloganise or declare anything. They just act! And with the billions of dollars of aid for weapons and bombs that American hands to them.
So Palestinians “need to sloganize or declare” in order to enact the violence on Israel’s populous? And once again, the US is at fault for supporting Israel? I’ve already pointed out Israel’s greatest successes against the many wars they’ve had with their neighbors came without the support you mention above.
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Because you don't want to understand.
No I think you don’t want to understand h@ts. You can’t continue to initiate violence and expect there to be no consequences for your actions no matter who is doing it. It’s foolish to keep picking with the bigger guy then complains when he blackens your eye saying “his eye isn’t black”.
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Well "they" haven't had that opportunity so we'll never know
Sure we know exactly because they “declared their intent” the many times they rejected any peace efforts. The fact that you want to ignore their declarations only highlights your bias.
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Arabs "annihilate" the state of Israel as we see clearly every day on the news. While the Israelis do nothing but defend themselves. Don't you see how biased you are. Why is that?
You conveniently left out a word. I said “efforts” to annihilate. Of course if you leave that word in then the rest of your sentence is unresponsive.
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That's right, Arabs are mindless, violent, ignorant, lunatic savages. We on the other hand are honorable and civilised and bring peace and harmony and fluffiness everywhere we go.
Again you’ve read exactly what you wanted to read into my statement instead of seeing what I posted but you have the propensity to do that. I should expect that by now.
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Of course it helps that we have bigger weapons which means we can arrogantly stride the world enforcing our will on whoever we choose, with clinical, calculated violence wherever appropriate.
You know you have a point here no matter how dismissive you appear to be in these forums. I won’t pretend to defend that but I do know this. We don’t inflict this same “violence” on our own societies.
My point was simply this. Use your eyes and look at the many Islamic militants around the world. Whether you want to accept this fact or not, there is a difference between our two societies and it has nothing to do with weaponry.
Now let me ask you this h@ts. You ever wonder why that little slither of land is so contested amongst Arabs and Muslims around the world? History has shown that they’ve only fought over any land given to Jews. Remember, Jordan got most of the land they were declaring Jews would take from them.
Jordan, Lebanon & Syria have laws on the books that forbid Palestinians from going to their schools and seeking treatment at their hospitals. Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt has repelled any effort to absorb these Palestinians into their societies. Hezbollah, Hamas, Jihad, nor the P.A. has given half the effort they do in fighting with Israel to relieve the sufferings of those in refugee camps for an unprecedented 50+ years. Yet they use Israel’s mistreatment of these Palestinians as the bases for their attacks and hostilities towards them.
Jordan should have been the most logical remedy to relieve Palestinian sufferings since they received ¾ of the land Arabs in Palestine were claiming Jews wanted. When Jordan annexed the WB and Egypt had Gaza, Arabs and Palestinians still made war over the small parcel of land Israel received and made no protest about Gaza or the WB whatsoever.
If you can seriously answer this without bias then you will see that this isn’t about the WB & Gaza at all. If you’re dismissive as you usually are, then this will be about Jews coming in and stealing their land.
oneofpeace said this in post #29 : This still isn’t a declaration of intent as we hear from Arabs and Palestinian militias around the region. However I will address this response.
peace, its policy, plain and simple.
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Israel’s government is responsible to its people not Palestinians. The wall has been built in an effort to repel the onslaught of suicide bombers infiltrating into Israel.
You are failing to recognise the reality. I understand that the wall repels attack. But while doing that it also takes land. You see this as accidental or unintentional. But it doesn't look so unintentional if the Israelis continue to also build on occupied land, meaning they have no intention fo giving it back - this is government policy. Israel don't declare it because 1. it's illigal, and 2. it's unpopular outside Israel.
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The wall (as is the road blocks and incursions they complain of) are a direct result of Palestinian efforts of indiscriminate violence projected against Israel’s society.
Will you stop putting all the blame on the Palastinians and try to be less biased. I know a lot of the problem is cause by Palastinian violence, but your insistance that the Israelis are just "defending" themselves is nonsense.
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It’s foolish to keep picking with the bigger guy then complains when he blackens your eye saying “his eye isn’t black”.
It's foolish to occupy a people, oppress them, rule over them with force and military strength and then complain wheh you are attacked. Two fools then.
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Sure we know exactly because they “declared their intent” the many times they rejected any peace efforts. The fact that you want to ignore their declarations only highlights your bias.
You keep proposing this idea that Palastinian's automatically reject peace "many times". I don't want to get into the argument again, but just restate the fact that Israel automatically rejected Hamas' offer of a 10 year truce.
Where is the evidence that Israel and the US have been looking for peace. I could post stuff that shows just the opposite. The US and Israel have for decade blocke any kind of deal every being succesful.
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You know you have a point here no matter how dismissive you appear to be in these forums. I won’t pretend to defend that but I do know this. We don’t inflict this same “violence” on our own societies.
Big deal. So we inflict the "violence" on other societies. Aren't we the civilised ones.
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My point was simply this. Use your eyes and look at the many Islamic militants around the world.
There are all kinds of terrorist organisation around the world. It's just convenient for you to lump them all together as "Islamic". Read Blowing up an Assumption by Robert A. Pape.
Blowing Up an Assumption
By ROBERT A. PAPE
Published: May 18, 2005
The data show that there is far less of a connection between suicide terrorism and religious fundamentalism than most people think.
Whether you want to accept this fact or not, there is a difference between our two societies and it has nothing to do with weaponry.
We have security both militarily and economically. America and much of Europe are ludicrously wealthy compared to most of the world. Wealth breeds contentment and apathy. But look what happened in the US when Katrina hit. When people don't have what they need or expect, how civilised are we really?
oneofpeace said this in post #30 : If you can seriously answer this without bias then you will see that this isn’t about the WB & Gaza at all. If you’re dismissive as you usually are, then this will be about Jews coming in and stealing their land.
It is about finding a soution to this ridiculously tiny coflict that has been going on for 50 years and which causes trouble all over the world.
The US is the only country that can reign in Israel's expantionist ambitions, but it refuses to do so. It gives unequivical support to Israel's actions no matter how wrong.
This doesn't mean states like Iran and Syria shouldn't play their part too, but Iran offered to recognise Israel, and withhold support for Hamas and terrorist organisations and both Israel and the US ignored the offer.
It can't be stated enough that it is the economic and powerful strategic importance of the Middle East that keeps us involved in the region, but it does appear that the days when we could get our own way through force and military supremacy are over.
We are no longer the almighty imperial powers we used to be. I guess that means we are going to have to talk.
h@ts wrote
I understand that the wall repels attack. But while doing that it also takes land. You see this as accidental or unintentional. But it doesn't look so unintentional if the Israelis continue to also build on occupied land
Ok, so why give Israel the excuse to do this? If their attacking Israel is resulting in more “land grabbing” then why attack them in the first place?
Israel left Gaza and the conflict continues at the same pace. In fact, for giving back Gaza, an Israeli military base was infiltrated and two soldiers kidnapped.
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I know a lot of the problem is cause by Palastinian violence, but your insistance that the Israelis are just "defending" themselves is nonsense.
Again I say this. Israel takes advantage of their military might and I don’t always agree with their tactics. With that being said, let me ask you this. If Israel gave Palestinians the WB, all of it, do you believe that attacks on Israel would stop?
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It's foolish to occupy a people, oppress them, rule over them with force and military strength and then complain wheh you are attacked.
How many ways can I say this? Jews didn’t come to Palestine, occupy, oppress & rule over anyone. This is the result of many decades of futile efforts to get Arabs to recognize Israel and the many attacks that occurred there.
In 1920 Palestinian Riots
In 1929 Hebron
In 1929 Safed
In 1936-39 Arab revolt
In 1948 War with Israel
In 1956 War Nassar, Suez Canal
In 1967 Six Day War
In 1968-70 War of Attrition
In 1973 Yom Kipper War
In 1982 Lebanon
In each instance we see above here is exactly why Israel now occupies the land in dispute. Every war except Lebanon, Israel was NOT the aggressor. Israel went into Lebanon because they were being attacked once again by militias infiltrating and killing Israeli civilians.
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just restated the fact that Israel automatically rejected Hamas' offer of a 10 year truce.
I won’t continue to make reference to this asinine position you continue to hold to.
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Where is the evidence that Israel and the US have been looking for peace…
…The US and Israel have for decade blocke any kind of deal every being succesful.
This is total nonsense. The latest effort of the US to help bring peace was categorically denied by the current ruling government of Palestine despite recent agreements that took decades to hammer out. The fact that you lay blame at Israel’s feet for this baffles the intellect.
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So we inflict the "violence" on other societies. Aren't we the civilised ones.
You’ve got to be kidding. So if you believe that we live in the similar environment as M.E. societies, I suggest you live there for approximately 6 months. You’d probably kiss the ground when you get back to your own country.
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There are all kinds of terrorist organisation around the world. It's just convenient for you to lump them all together as "Islamic".
I’m not lumping anything. We’re talking about Islamic/Arab militants so why would I address the IRA?
Secondly, you can play with the numbers all you want but no other group is more active than Islamic militants in attacking their own and out side of their borders. The issue you presented in your article only addresses suicide bombings no all terrorist acts.
Furthermore, the incidents cited in the article are more centralized unlike Islamic militancy whose hatred seems to reach far beyond their own borders.
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We have security both militarily and economically. America and much of Europe are ludicrously wealthy compared to most of the world. Wealth breeds contentment and apathy.
And this is our fault? Arabs control vast world resources that only contribute to the wealth of a few while simultaneously keeping their own people oppressed and poverty stricken. They don’t invest in technology nor research in medicine. They rule with absolute authority over their societies denigrating them and you want to blame the West for their mismanagement and oppressions?
oneofpeace: The latest effort of the US to help bring peace was categorically denied by the current ruling government of Palestine despite recent agreements that took decades to hammer out. The fact that you lay blame at Israel’s feet for this baffles the intellect.
The latest effort to bring peace was the "Road Map" which called on Israel to halt the settlement expansions. Israel did not stick to it.
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Photos reveal Israeli West Bank expansion
Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
Monday March 21, 2005
The Guardian
Aerial photographs by Israel's defence ministry have provided fresh evidence that the government is continuing its rapid expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank despite public statements to the contrary.
The Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz yesterday reported that the pictures, taken last summer and again this year, show extensive construction on settlements, confirming Palestinian fears that Ariel Sharon is using the upheaval around the removal of Jewish settlers from the Gaza strip as cover to grab control of more of the West Bank.
The continued construction is also in breach of Israel's commitments under the US-led road map peace initiative which requires a complete freeze on settlement expansion.
I agree that all parts of the wall that are on Palestinian territory should be moved to the Israeli territory.
The 10 year truce offer by Hamas, although I have never heard of it, but assuming it's true Israel doesn't need truce, it needs recognition. Hamas would arm itself in 10 years and then act according to its policy and ideals of destroying Israel and creating a Palestinian state in all lands of Palestine.
As I know, the settlement expansions are not encouraged by the government, but done independently by settlers. I think there should be a law forbidding Israelis to create new settlements or move to existing settlements.
If you think that Sharon wanted to expand settlements in the west bank using distraction in the Gaza Strip, then why did he evacuate two large settlements from the West Bank following the evacuation in the Gaza Strip? There were also evacuations in a dozen minor settlements as well, which were probably not mentioned at the time in the international media.
Sharon acted according to the road map and Olmert intends to continue this policy by evacuating most of the settlements in the West Bank.
The War in Lebanon forced him to temporarily freeze his plan as he lost most of the support from the Israeli public and is now trying to regain it.
But I can't see how he can implement this plan after joining the Right-Winged party of Lieberman into his government.
In a perfect world Hamas would recognise Israel. And you may be right, Hamas could rearm, but 10 years is a long time and who knows what might change in those 10 years. But Hamas are the elected democratic choice of the Palestinian people and to automatically crush them after saying democracy is the answer is ludircous.
Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are capable of ending this conflict. As has been tried in the past, pressure must be brought on both sides to stop the futile tit-for-tat attack and reprisal, stop the illigal settlement expansions, and stop the terrorist attacks.
Ultimately it can't be done while Iran and Syria back one side and the US back the other. It's not going to happen while Bush is in power. He's made too many enemies and threatened too many people. What's sad is there was an opportunity in 2003 with Iran making all kinds of offers, but Bush doesn't talk to Iran, or anyone for that matter.
Palestinians elected Hamas. Americans elected Bush. Israelis elected Olmert.
The majority of each of those nations regrets its choice. That's the main flaw of Democracy - even if support is down to 1% the leader can do anything he wants, opposed to his promises, opposed to majority's opinion.
People can try and bring him down, but there's no easy way of doing that.
Palestinians elected Hamas not necessarily because of its policies against Israel. They did it mostly because they saw no alternative. Fatah was corrupt and Hamas seemed strong in its leadership.
Yes, perhaps it is up for the world to put pressure on both sides, instead of criticizing, condemning and empty-talking.
A good leader is someone who is trusted by the majority of his people, a diplomat seeking peace, a man who stands behind his words and acts upon the best interests of his country. This world needs such men.
Sometimes, lives of millions depend on their leaders. Sometimes leaders don't care about the lives of millions of his people.
I don’t know where h@ts get this notion that because a government was democratically elected that the rest world has to support it. Democracy is about choice. It also means when you make that choice you have to suffer the consequences of your choice (ie President Bush).
If Germany decided to elect a nazi government back into office and that government then said it will not renounce any of its past policies but will call a “truce” for now, it would be preposterous to believe other governments should support such an entity.
An incoming administration are bound to all negotiations made by the previous administration in particular to treaties and very well should be. If not, then anarchy will be sure to follow if incoming administrations dismiss all previous negotiations by the incumbent administration simply because “they” didn’t negotiate it.
Hamas decided to enter the political arena and they too made a choice. When they did, they cannot have one foot in politics and the other dabbling in terrorism then think it’s ludicrous for other governments not to support their direction.
With regards to the wall, the wall extends into the WB because there needed to be a buffer zone for those chucking rocked into Israeli settlements. Like every other wall, the wall can be dismantled through negotiations. The first step to those negotiations is for both sides to recognize the right of each other’s existence.
I think the point that h"ts was making is that the US, Israel, Britain, France and Germany pushed the Palestinians to have democratic elsctions and tghen *****ed an moaned when they did not agree with the outcome and as a result some people see the refusal of aid and assistance as the Palestininas being punisehd for doing what the bigger countries told then they had to do.
As for what one of pecae said about a government having a miltray arm may I remind you that Regan and Bush snr both sat back and allowed Sinne Fein and the IRA to co - exsist and even obtaing funds and wepaons in the US, as usual it seems the US is alloewed to pick and choose their morals when it comes to these issues.
Ok two things here lodgebo. First, Sinn Fine rise to politics happened in the early 20th century. You cannot compare this to events that happen almost a century later. Furthermore, Britain is capable of providing their own defense and Sinn Fine isn’t the ruling party in England today refusing to recognize England as the ruling government.
Secondly, Hezbollah currently hold political office in Lebanon while simultaneously dealing in militancy and in the M.E. there are others.
With that being said the Palestinians had democratic elections and this is good. They chose Hamas. Hamas chose not to recognize any past agreements made by their predecessors. Given what it took to reach such an agreement I find it incredible that anyone can give more weight to the fact that they were “democratically” elected than to Hamas flushing years of negotiations down the toilet.
Today around the world, many other nations don’t deal with other governments because they disagree with their policies and/or actions and this is nothing new. In the interest of peace the process should have been allowed to continue without
