Hamas obviously wants peace..... |
| Posted by: Dekka00 | | Abbas Reaches Deal for Unity Government
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GAZA (Sept. 11) - Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas reached a deal with Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas on Monday to form a unity government the Palestinians hope will end their international isolation and revive aid.
But Hamas said it would never recognize Israel and that it had a right to pursue armed struggle against the Jewish state, raising immediate questions over whether a unity coalition would satisfy Western demands for lifting sanctions.
"The outlines of any political agenda in the coming period will not harm the legitimacy of the resistance against the Israeli occupation," Haniyeh said in a speech, using the Islamic militant group's term for Israel.
[...]
Abbas would decree the existing Hamas-led government a caretaker administration within 48 hours, an aide said. Hamas officials said they wanted Haniyeh to head the unity cabinet.
Palestinians hope the creation of a unity administration will lead to the lifting of a Western aid embargo imposed after Hamas took power in March after a surprising win over Abbas's Fatah movement in January elections.
[...]
Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said [the unity government] would be based on a document the Islamists and Abbas agreed in June, which fell short of Western and Israeli demands.
That document stemmed from a manifesto drafted by Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails which hinted at recognition of Israel by calling for a Palestinian state on land captured by the Jewish state in the 1967 Middle East war.
But Hamas's own position was unchanged, Abu Zuhri said. "We will never recognize the legitimacy of the occupation," he said.
[...] |
http://news.aol.com/topnews/article...9990004?cid=774 | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Dekka00 | |
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| Hamas said it would never recognize Israel and that it had a right to pursue armed struggle against the Jewish state |
I don't know if this can get any clearer.
I want h@ts in particular to see this, so he can know what groups like Hamas and Hezbollah really hope to attain.
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| Posted by: Dekka00 | |
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| "The outlines of any political agenda in the coming period will not harm the legitimacy of the resistance against the Israeli occupation," Haniyeh said in a speech, using the Islamic militant group's term for Israel. |
refer to this thread on the semantics of Islamic militants.
when terms such as "Zionist regime" or "Israeli occupation" or "Zionist entity" are used in lieu of the name "Israel," this is their way of referring to Israel without recognizing their soveriegnity.
I am willing to have a discussion, I'm not saying Israel is blameless, but in order to have a logical disucssion, one must first accept the truth. And the truth is that there are Islamic militant groups whose stated purpose is the destruction of Israel. Period.
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| Posted by: HECK! | | This has been going on for decades, is anyone surprised nothing has changed? I'd wager both sides will go on hating each other long after our children's children are taking a dirt nap. It sucks, but I can't say anything coming out of there really blows my skirty up any more.
-HECK! | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: P.O.T.U.S. | |
| quote: |
Dekka00 said this in post #2 :
I want h@ts in particular to see this, so he can know what groups like Hamas and Hezbollah really hope to attain. |
I'm sure he'd have an answer for you. 
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| Posted by: h@ts | |
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Dekka00 said this in post #3 :
but in order to have a logical disucssion, one must first accept the truth. And the truth is that there are Islamic militant groups whose stated purpose is the destruction of Israel. Period. |
I've no argument with this. There are also Jewish groups whose main purpose is the prevention and destruction of a Palastinian state. But the fact is certain Jewish organisations are doing a far better job of preventing a Palastinian state than visa-versa.
Solutions have been put forward, but with the continued expansion of the West Bank the chance of a viable Palastinian state is being lost (which is exactly what some Israelis want). On the other hand - please explain how close the Palastinians are to destrorying the Israeli state? There is obviously no comparison?
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| Posted by: Dekka00 | | two questions:
why does Hamas wants to destroy Israel?
why can't West Bank and its inhabitants be incorporated into Israel? | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: h@ts | |
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Dekka00 said this in post #7 :
[B]two questions:
why does Hamas wants to destroy Israel? |
Why do Israelis want to destroy Palastine?
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| why can't West Bank and its inhabitants be incorporated into Israel? |
Do Israelis want that. Do Palastinians want that? Do you know the answer to your question?
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| Posted by: Dekka00 | |
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h@ts said this in post #9 :
Why do Israelis want to destroy Palastine?
Do Israelis want that. Do Palastinians want that? Do you know the answer to your question? |
HECK answered the questions I posted correctly.
The answer to your questions are
1) I think most Israelis would be content if Hamas would stop terrorizing them. However, there are some who want their historical homeland under Jewish rule.
2) Yes, I think Israel would accept a one-state solution including West Bank. I don't think the Arabs living in that area would though. They see accepting a Jewish state as defeat. Their pride is too tall to associate with Jews.
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| Posted by: h@ts | |
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Dekka00 said this in post #10 :
1) I think most Israelis would be content if Hamas would stop terrorizing them. However, there are some who want their historical homeland under Jewish rule. |
Likewise most Palastinians (who are getting the butt-end of the deal in that land) would be content to have their own nation state and stop being terrorized by the occupying forces of the IDF.
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| 2) Yes, I think Israel would accept a one-state solution including West Bank. I don't think the Arabs living in that area would though. They see accepting a Jewish state as defeat. Their pride is too tall to associate with Jews. |
Who really knows? Some in Hamas (as has Iran) have said they will accept a two state solution, and some Hamas leaders and supporters will do all they can to not accept it. I'm sure the feeling's mutual amongst some Israelis.
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| Posted by: woolfe99 | |
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h@ts said this in post #11 :
Likewise most Palastinians (who are getting the butt-end of the deal in that land) would be content to have their own nation state and stop being terrorized by the occupying forces of the IDF. |
If most Palestinians would accept a 2-state solution, why did they elect Hamas - an organization who's stated aim is the destruction of the State of Israel - to power?
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| [i]Who really knows? Some in Hamas (as has Iran) have said they will accept a two state solution, and some Hamas leaders and supporters will do all they can to not accept it. I'm sure the feeling's mutual amongst some Israelis. [/B] |
Very few. The stated aim and mission statement of Hamas is to extinguish the presence of the "Zionist Entity" from Palestine.
Also review the quotes from the article above:
"The outlines of any political agenda in the coming period will not harm the legitimacy of the resistance against the Israeli occupation," Haniyeh said in a speech, using the Islamic militant group's term for Israel."
Translation: if you hear signs of moderation from our camp, fear not, these are only a temporary diplomatic tool to achieve specific ends.
And if there was any doubt that the "occupation" means not only the West Bank but the entire State of Israel:
"That document stemmed from a manifesto drafted by Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails which hinted at recognition of Israel by calling for a Palestinian state on land captured by the Jewish state in the 1967 Middle East war.
But Hamas's own position was unchanged, Abu Zuhri said. "We will never recognize the legitimacy of the occupation," he said."
- woolfe
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| Posted by: h@ts | |
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woolfe99 said this in post #12 :
If most Palestinians would accept a 2-state solution, why did they elect Hamas - an organization who's stated aim is the destruction of the State of Israel - to power? |
Who knows why people vote for who they vote for? Hamas are certainly not a one policy party.
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| The stated aim and mission statement of Hamas is to extinguish the presence of the "Zionist Entity" from Palestine. |
And as I've pointed out many times, many Israeli's aim was and is to continue what they have succesfully achieved for decades (as oppossed to merely threaten it) which is to actually destroy a Palastinian state, and any chance of one ever coming into being. I therefore presume there are extremists on both sides, and don't defend either, including Hamas' policy of getting rid of the state of Israel.
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But Hamas's own position was unchanged, Abu Zuhri said. "We will never recognize the legitimacy of the occupation," he said."
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I don't think it's what you meant, but only the US and Israel recognise the "legitimacy of the occupation".
As for Hamas, their position has changed from time to time and they have said they would recognise Israel. Either you believe their position is set in stone, so utterly hopeless, or it can change. Who knows the future so to believe things cannot change is a deeply pessimistic view.
Look at Iran, their offers to recognise Israel have been completely ignored by President Bush and the Israeli government. Why? And why is tough-guy "bring em on" Bush afraid to debate with Ahmadinejad?
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| Posted by: oneofpeace | |
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h@ts wrote
And as I've pointed out many times, many Israeli's aim was and is to continue what they have succesfully achieved for decades (as oppossed to merely threaten it) which is to actually destroy a Palastinian state, and any chance of one ever coming into being. I therefore presume there are extremists on both sides, and don't defend either, including Hamas' policy of getting rid of the state of
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Show me Israel’s charter to do what you say above h@ts. Hamas has systematically turned back years of negotiations in one day. Now we have the audacity of some to want to blame the West for withholding their own financial support which apparently they are doing more than Arab nations at really helping relief of Palestinian miseries.
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As for Hamas, their position has changed from time to time and they have said they would recognise Israel.
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Why stubbornly hold to this ineffectual point? Hamas has never officially said they would recognize Israel. If someone in their party even hinted at it, you have Hamas leadership categorically denying it. Meanwhile status quo proceeds and in the end, Palestinians suffer for it.
In my opinion, Palestinians suffer more at the hands of their own leadership then they ever did from Israel. Decades have past without any progression in their dire conditions.
Now you can say what you want here h@ts but the reality is this. Both sides will have to give and take here. Neither of them are going anywhere. The sooner this is realized by leadership on both sides, the better off it will be. Are there Israelis that don’t want a Palestinian state? Sure there is but there’s a hell of a lot more Arabs that don’t want Israel to exist and quite frankly it has clouded any semblance of reasonable judgements. If it weren’t true, Palestine would officially exist today.
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| Posted by: h@ts | |
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oneofpeace said this in post #14 :
Show me Israel’s charter to do what you say above h@ts. Hamas has systematically turned back years of negotiations in one day. Now we have the audacity of some to want to blame the West for withholding their own financial support which apparently they are doing more than Arab nations at really helping relief of Palestinian miseries. |
Why do Israel need a written charter? Their actions and the $billion dollars of US support for their actions and their ACTUAL (rather than threatened) success in destroying a Palestinian state is enough.
Ariel Sharon addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, 1998: "there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands" - Agence France Presse, 15 November 1998
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| Hamas has systematically turned back years of negotiations in one day. |
What does that mean? When? Where? How?
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| Now we have the audacity of some to want to blame the West for withholding their own financial support which apparently they are doing more than Arab nations at really helping relief of Palestinian miseries. |
Who do you blame for the collective punishment meted out to the Palestinians because they democratically elected Hamas into power? Does Bush still yap on about "democracising" the Middle East? And in light of Hamas winning the election, has Bush a new theory explaining the whole reason he decided to start wars in the region?
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| Why stubbornly hold to this ineffectual point? Hamas has never officially said they would recognize Israel. |
"officially"? who gives a toss whether it's official or not? What do you want, it written down on a bit of paper, signed sealed and delivered?
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| If someone in their party even hinted at it, you have Hamas leadership categorically denying it. Meanwhile status quo proceeds and in the end, Palestinians suffer for it. |
Are you saying it's best to ignore a "hint at it", or any possibility of a beginning to talks and peace?
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| In my opinion, Palestinians suffer more at the hands of their own leadership then they ever did from Israel. Decades have past without any progression in their dire conditions. |
What rubbish. Have you ever lived under an occupying military force?
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| Now you can say what you want here h@ts but the reality is this. Both sides will have to give and take here. Neither of them are going anywhere. The sooner this is realized by leadership on both sides, the better off it will be. |
So now you do think that a hint at a diplomatic solution should be looked at rather than ignored?
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| Are there Israelis that don't want a Palestinian state? Sure |
No! There are Israelis that have successfully prevented a Palestinian state, and may continue to make sure that one never exists, ie they will have wiped the Palestinians off the map forever.
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| but there's a hell of a lot more Arabs that don't want Israel to exist and quite frankly it has clouded any semblance of reasonable judgements. |
Such is the inherent dangers of thinking you can subdue and eventually destroy a people by occupation.
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| Posted by: woolfe99 | |
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h@ts said this in post #13 :
Who knows why people vote for who they vote for? Hamas are certainly not a one policy party.
And as I've pointed out many times, many Israeli's aim was and is to continue what they have succesfully achieved for decades (as oppossed to merely threaten it) which is to actually destroy a Palastinian state, and any chance of one ever coming into being. I therefore presume there are extremists on both sides, and don't defend either, including Hamas' policy of getting rid of the state of Israel.
I don't think it's what you meant, but only the US and Israel recognise the "legitimacy of the occupation".
As for Hamas, their position has changed from time to time and they have said they would recognise Israel. Either you believe their position is set in stone, so utterly hopeless, or it can change. Who knows the future so to believe things cannot change is a deeply pessimistic view.
Look at Iran, their offers to recognise Israel have been completely ignored by President Bush and the Israeli government. Why? And why is tough-guy "bring em on" Bush afraid to debate with Ahmadinejad? |
Hamas is isn't really political in its bent. It's fundamentally religious. They can be politically pragmatic from time to time, but they're essentially relgious fanatics. Everyone in the middle east knows what they stand for. Voting for Hamas is voting for its core tenet - the destruction of the state of Israel, as part of an Islamic jihad.
As for Israel wishing the same on the Palestianian state, they've done an awfully poor job of it, considering they're capable of pretty much annihilating the Palestinians whenever they desire. Yet in spite of Israel's vast military superiority, somehow the Palestinians remain a thorn in their sides.
A more plausible assertion is that there is a range of views among Israelis from most conciliatory to most extreme, and the views that hold sway in their government range from moderately conciliatory to moderately hardline. As for the Palestinians? I'm struggling to find much moderation there. I know it exists. It just doesn't seem to hold much sway.
- woolfe
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| Posted by: h@ts | |
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woolfe99 said this in post #16 :
Hamas is isn't really political in its bent. It's fundamentally religious. They can be politically pragmatic from time to time, but they're essentially relgious fanatics. Everyone in the middle east knows what they stand for. Voting for Hamas is voting for its core tenet - the destruction of the state of Israel, as part of an Islamic jihad. |
No doubt that's a vote winner, but it's obviously not the only reason. Corruption was certainly an issue, and building hospitals and schools and looking after other social problems can't have hindered their success. And it's not uncommon for resistance/terrorist organisation to eventually beome the ruling power.
Also Hamas gets much of it's funding from Iran, and so I presume Iran has a say in its direction politicaly, and Iran offered to recognise Israel in 92 and was ignored.
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| As for Israel wishing the same on the Palestianian state, they've done an awfully poor job of it, considering they're capable of pretty much annihilating the Palestinians whenever they desire. |
Poor job? There is no Palastinian state. If Israel continue to cut up and divide more Palastinian land there may never be a viable state, thus wiping Palastine off the map. So as far as extremists go, those Jews who will not accept a Palastinian state are winning hands down.
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| Yet in spite of Israel's vast military superiority, somehow the Palestinians remain a thorn in their sides. |
Of course they do and that is the problem of occupation.
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| As for the Palestinians? I'm struggling to find much moderation there. I know it exists. It just doesn't seem to hold much sway. |
You're probably right, but Hamas are there and elected and not going to go away. And do we actually think punishing the Palastinian people for voting for a party we won't accept is going to change Palastinian's minds? It's more likely to do the opposite - make Hamas stronger.
Was there even an attempt by the US to speak to them after they won the election? Probably not. And where are we now? Palatinians being pounded in Gaza and Hezbollah holding massive rallies in Lebanon - and possibly becoming a strong democratic force there - after Israel failed to dent them in the war.
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| Posted by: Dreamzwalker | |
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Dekka00 said this in post #7 :
two questions:
why does Hamas wants to destroy Israel?
why can't West Bank and its inhabitants be incorporated into Israel? |
question one - hamas believes that they and other muslims are the people in the bible that were there before the jews some 5000 years ago
same as above for question two.
something that i do not expect anyone on this site to understand, less they are jewish, is the fact that the muslim will not stop until all of israel is theirs. they believe it was theirs 5000 years ago even when they have no history record of it.
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| Posted by: h@ts | |
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Dreamzwalker said this in post #19 :
question one - hamas believes that they and other muslims are the people in the bible that were there before the jews some 5000 years ago |
White Christian supremacists beleive they are Gods chosen people and the Jews are devils. Jews believe they are the chosen people. Christians, Hindus, all religions claim they are the ones. Stupid hey?
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same as above for question two.
something that i do not expect anyone on this site to understand, less they are jewish, is the fact that the muslim will not stop until all of israel is theirs. they believe it was theirs 5000 years ago even when they have no history record of it. |
What's the difference between Muslims and Jews and Christians anyway? They all believe in the same god, they all come from teh same area, they all live together in peace from time to time.
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| Posted by: Dreamzwalker | |
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h@ts said this in post #20 :
White Christian supremacists beleive they are Gods chosen people and the Jews are devils. Jews believe they are the chosen people. Christians, Hindus, all religions claim they are the ones. Stupid hey?
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I have no idea where the hell you get your stuff but you really need to stop believing some of the crap you read. i have never met any "white christian" or any other race or creed that thought they were a god.
if your talking about what i think you are, those people were not/are not christians or believers of any faith save but their own
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| Posted by: h@ts | |
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Dreamzwalker said this in post #21 :
if your talking about what i think you are, those people were not/are not christians or believers of any faith save but their own |
Who do you think I'm talking about, you don't say? Aryan Nations, Christian Identity, Church of Jesus Christ-Christian, the Klu Klux Klan?
Some Christians
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/holocaust3.jpg
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| Posted by: oneofpeace | |
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h@ts wrote
Ariel Sharon addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, 1998: "there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands" - Agence France Presse, 15 November 1998
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It’s funny how you can find quotes like these in abundance on mostly pro-Arab websites.
The quote was made by Sharon in 1977. Anyone reading your quote would assume it was made in 1998.
Secondly, it was at a time of turmoil and Sharon was referring to the land they captured in 1967 during the six day war. Hostilities were still high during the 70’s and if I posted all the quotes made by Arab leaders to the annihilation of Israel, there wouldn’t be room in this thread for much else.
By the time Sharon was elected, his views changed somewhat as did many Arab leaders.
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What does that mean? When? Where? How?
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This was in reply to my saying that Hamas has systematically turned back years of negotiations in one day.
What this means is this. It took much struggle and violence to get both sides, Israel and Palestinians, to agree to some kind of map to peace. Through 3rd party negotiations and years of failure, finally a plan was in place and attempts were being made to execute it. Sharon pulled out of Gaza (with Hamas celebrating in the streets as if they forced them out) and progress was being made. There was a clear goal in sight for both sides.
Now Hamas takes over and scraps all past negotiations, declaring they wouldn’t recognize Israel and refuse to give up bombings. Now we’re back at square one with Hamas infiltrating into Israel and kidnapping soldiers when Israel was withdrawing and working on a path toward a 2 state solution. There was no provocation for Hamas to do this other than old axes to grind.
So ask yourself, since you want to blame the west for taking their own monies away from such a government, what has changed to bring about the tensions we see today? If you have an honest bone in your body, you would admit that the hindrance here is Hamas.
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Who do you blame for the collective punishment meted out to the Palestinians because they democratically elected Hamas into power? |
The Palestinian people voted Hamas into power. So the west is to simply support Hamas’ efforts to continue bombings and not recognize Israel with West funding?
Your contention that because Hamas was “democratically elected” that this somehow trumps their ideology to destroy Israel is absurdity. They were given a choice to continue the peace initiative or to continue their ideology. They chose the latter.
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officially"? who gives a toss whether it's official or not? |
Quite frankly h@ts, you are either too jaded or to stubborn to see the truth. Personally I believe it’s both.
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Are you saying it's best to ignore a "hint at it", or any possibility of a beginning to talks and peace?
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What I’m saying is this. When Hamas entered the ring of politics and government, they can’t have it both ways. Either they are a government or a terrorist organization. If they are a government then they have to recognize their neighbors.
No vague hints, no maybes, no truces and no sending bombers into Israel but unequivocal recognition. If the Palestinian people want a terrorist org to run their society then they must accept the consequences that come with their decision.
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What rubbish. Have you ever lived under an occupying military force?
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And how did this “occupation” come about h@ts? The checkpoints, the raids, the military presence didn’t show up suddenly but the results of years of violence between the two.
Since the war of 1948, Arab militants had been sneaking across the border and killing Israeli civilians. This is largely the reason why Sharon went through Qibya like he did in 1953 and this is exactly why Israel has the WB and use to occupy Gaza.
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So now you do think that a hint at a diplomatic solution should be looked at rather than ignored?
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It’s almost as if I’m repeating myself. I posted more than once that Palestinians need to try a new approach other than violence because it’s not working for them so yeah, I say give diplomacy the same effort they gave the violence.
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No! There are Israelis that have successfully prevented a Palestinian state, and may continue to make sure that one never exists,
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And all of this is the fault of Israel? So the years of refusals to recognize Israel and accept a Jewish state, wars, militant excursions and attacks on Israeli civilians had nothing to do with it? But what else could the Palestinians do right?
Have you ever asked yourself h@ts why in the history of this earth, have a refugee camp existed for more than half a century? Why haven’t these same Arabs absorbed Palestinians into their societies? I know it’s a slight digression but I think it speaks to the heart of the Arab agenda.
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| Posted by: h@ts | |
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oneofpeace said this in post #24 :
It’s almost as if I’m repeating myself. I posted more than once that Palestinians need to try a new approach other than violence because it’s not working for them so yeah, I say give diplomacy the same effort they gave the violence.
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And let me repeat for the 3 or 4 time: you say "Palestinians need to try a new approach other than violence" but when Hamas and Iran offer truces, peace, recognition of the stat of Israel, you so easily agree with the US and Israeli governments stance of instantly dismissing such offers or ignoring them altogether.
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| Posted by: ashrafabdeljabe | | Theres a new site just about palestine where people discuss topics like these. Fateh and Hamas topics are already getting high. NO REGISTRATION REQUIRED JUST POST!!!
go to (link removed) or if you want to go straight to the forums, go to (link removed) | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: ashrafabdeljabe | | Theres a new site called palestine- forums where people discuss topics like these. Go to Link removed | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Whidden | |
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ashrafabdeljabe said this in post #28 :
Theres a new site called palestine- forums where people discuss topics like these. Go to Link removed |
Please stop spamming the board. Your links have been removed from all your posts.
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Israel & Palestine Forum: Hamas obviously wants peace.....
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