Fellow Americans, Hezbollah is Our Enemy, Too - Israel & Palestine

Fellow Americans, Hezbollah is Our Enemy, Too

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Posted by: P.O.T.U.S.

Hezbollah is Our Enemy, Too
By Jeff Jacoby
Monday, July 31, 2006

According to a pair of Gallup polls released last week, 83 percent of Americans say Israel is justified in taking military action against Hezbollah, while 76 percent disapprove of Hezbollah's attacks on Israel. Yet when asked which side in the conflict the United States should take, 65 percent answer: neither side. Indeed, 3 in 4 Americans say they are concerned that the US military will be drawn into the fighting, or that it will increase the likelihood of terrorism against the United States.

Gallup's numbers suggest two things. First, that most Americans, sizing up the warfare in northern Israel and southern Lebanon, recognize that Hezbollah is the aggressor and that Israel is fighting in self-defense. And second, that most Americans believe this fight has nothing to do with the United States.

Welcome to Sept. 10.

For years Osama bin Laden had preached that it was "the duty of Muslims to confront, fight, and kill" Americans. His adherents had responded by blowing up the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, and slamming a boat laden with explosives into the USS Cole. Yet most Americans paid no attention to Al Qaeda and its threats -- until 3,000 people lost their lives on Sept. 11, 2001.

Has nothing been learned from that experience?

Hezbollah's barbaric assault on Israel -- kidnapping and murdering soldiers who weren't engaged in hostilities, firing waves of missiles into cities and towns, packing rockets with ball bearings meant to maximize suffering by shredding human flesh -- is part and parcel of the radical Islamist jihad against the free world. Nothing to do with the United States? It has *everything* to do with the United States. Hezbollah hates Americans at least as implacably as Al Qaeda does, and rarely misses an opportunity to say so.

"We consider [America] to be an enemy because it wants to humiliate our governments, our regimes, and our peoples," railed Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, at an enormous rally in February 2005. (Video of Nasrallah's speech, which was broadcast on Hezbollah's Al-Manar TV, has been posted on the internet by MEMRI, the Middle East Media Research Institute.) "It is the greatest plunderer of our treasures, our oil, and our resources. . . . Our motto, which we are not afraid to repeat year after year, is: 'Death to America!' "

And from tens of thousands of Hezbollah supporters came the answering cry: "Death to America! Death to America! Death to America! Death to America!"

These are anything but empty threats. Prior to 9/11, Hezbollah was responsible for more American casualties than any other terrorist organization in the world. Among its victims was Army officer William F. Buckley, the CIA station chief in Beirut who was abducted by Hezbollah in March 1984 and who died after 15 months in captivity of torture and illness.

And the young Navy diver Robert Stethem, singled out during the 1985 Hezbollah hijacking of TWA Flight 847 and brutally beaten before being shot to death.

And William Higgins, a colonel in the Marine Corps and commander of the UN peacekeeping mission in Lebanon, who was seized by Hezbollah in February 1988, tortured, and eventually hanged. (As Michelle Malkin perceptively noted last week, the tape of Higgins, bound and gagged and swinging from a rope, was one of the first publicly disseminated jihadi snuff films.)

And the 241 US servicemen murdered by Hezbollah on Oct. 23, 1983, when a suicide bomber drove a truck rigged with 12,000 pounds of TNT into their barracks at the Beirut airport.

And the 19 US servicemen killed in the 1996 bombing of Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia.

For more than two decades, Hezbollah's Shi'ite fanatics, backed by Iran and sheltered by Syria, have made it their business to murder, maim, hijack, and kidnap Americans with the same irrational hostility they harbor for Israel. Yet when Tony Snow, the Bush administration's gifted spokesman, was asked on July 19 whether the president believes "that this is as much the United States' war as it is Israel's war," he answered, "No," and then tried to change the subject. A moment later the question returned: "I don't think you really answered the part about why is this not our war?"

Snow's incredible reply: "Why would it be our war? I mean, it's not on our territory. This is a war in which the United States -- it's not even a war. What you have are hostilities, at this point, between Israel and Hezbollah. I would not characterize it as a war."

9/11, it was said time and time again, "changed everything." No longer would Americans walk around with eyes wide shut, oblivious to the threat from the Islamofascists. Not our war? Listen again to the Hezbollah hordes: "Death to America! Death to America!"

They're serious about it -- deadly serious. Why aren't we?

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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
P.O.T.U.S. said this in post #1 :
[B][SIZE=3]

Snow's incredible reply: "Why would it be our war? I mean, it's not on our territory.


What is happening over there has nothing to do with territory. It is a BIG mistake to look at that conflict and see it as another chapter of the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict over homeland, settlements, etc.

In the big picture, there is a gathering, intolerant, hateful ideology hiding behind Islam that intends to kill everyone who does not agree with them.

Once the world said, "Never again."

How soon the world forgets.
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Posted by: P.O.T.U.S.

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #2 :


In the big picture, there is a gathering, intolerant, hateful ideology hiding behind Islam that intends to kill everyone who does not agree with them.

Once the world said, "Never again."

How soon the world forgets.


Exactly correct.
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #2 :
In the big picture, there is a gathering, intolerant, hateful ideology hiding behind Islam that intends to kill everyone who does not agree with them.

Once the world said, "Never again."

How soon the world forgets.


Never again what? You can't even see the big picture. With full American support, Israel is bombing the crap out of Lebanon, and doing their best to make sure the Palastinian people never get a state of their own. And before that America bombed the crap out of Afghanistan, and then bombed the crap out of Iraq, and threatening Iran and Syria and North Korea with the same.

I suppose it must be their "gathering, intolerant, hateful ideology hiding behind Islam" that has given us no choice but to drop all these bombs on them and kill them in their thousands.

How tough it's been for us in the last few years. All that killing and death we've had to deal out. Phew, I'm exhausted just thinking about it.
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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
h@ts said this in post #4 :

Phew, I'm exhausted just thinking about it.


You are looking at the little picture, thinking it's the big picture.
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #5 :


You are looking at the little picture, thinking it's the big picture.


The picture you have is one made in Hollywood, where we are the good guys, them over there are the bad guys. Look at the language you're using - "gathering, intolerant, hateful ideology hiding behind Islam". That's similar to the kind of propoganda the Nazis came out with about the Jews.

How abou this: what if you believed Bush's foreign policy was actually about making sure America has a strong presense in the Gulf, and that this is about economics and world power and control over the future dwindling energy supplies. What if this is about America's addiction to oil, and that without a reliable supply, America as the sole superpower is no more. Would that change your opinion on the rights and wrongs of the US dealing out death and destruction?
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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
h@ts said this in post #6 :


The picture you have is one made in Hollywood, where we are the good guys, them over there are the bad guys. Look at the language you're using - "gathering, intolerant, hateful ideology hiding behind Islam". That's similar to the kind of propoganda the Nazis came out with about the Jews.

How abou this: what if you believed Bush's foreign policy was actually about making sure America has a strong presense in the Gulf, and that this is about economics and world power and control over the future dwindling energy supplies. What if this is about America's addiction to oil, and that without a reliable supply, America as the sole superpower is no more. Would that change your opinion on the rights and wrongs of the US dealing out death and destruction?


I am not crazy about how Bush is handling things, but even at that, I don't believe what you have suggested above is his agenda. It is what the political left believes, but I don't.

Interesting that you feel my characterization of radical Islam sounds like something a Nazi would say. I would say that the practitioners of Islamic terror are acting like Nazis. In fact I would say they make Nazis seem cuddly.
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Posted by: HECK!

quote:
h@ts said this in post #6 :
How abou this: what if you believed Bush's foreign policy was actually about making sure America has a strong presense in the Gulf, and that this is about economics and world power and control over the future dwindling energy supplies. What if this is about America's addiction to oil, and that without a reliable supply, America as the sole superpower is no more. Would that change your opinion on the rights and wrongs of the US dealing out death and destruction?


Well said.

-HECK!
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Posted by: P.O.T.U.S.

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #7 :



Interesting that you feel my characterization of radical Islam sounds like something a Nazi would say. I would say that the practitioners of Islamic terror are acting like Nazis. In fact I would say they make Nazis seem cuddly.


Indeed.
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Posted by: HECK!

Once again, the immortal George Burns is proven correct: "Too bad that all the people who really know how to run the country are busy driving taxi cabs and cutting hair."



-HECK!

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Posted by: Dreamzwalker

quote:
HECK! said this in post #10 :
Once again, the immortal George Burns is proven correct: "Too bad that all the people who really know how to run the country are busy driving taxi cabs and cutting hair."



-HECK!




or holding a stop sign at road construction.
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #7 :
[B]

I am not crazy about how Bush is handling things, but even at that, I don't believe what you have suggested above is his agenda. It is what the political left believes, but I don't.


Bush has said openly that America is "addicted" to oil. He means the American way of life, economy, lifestyle, strength, standing in the world, is DEPENDANT on oil. Economics, power, and control, and expansion of these forces are what wars are usually about and even though other reasons have been pushed to the fore, I really don't see how anyone can dismiss the strategic reasons for the wars going on there as major factors.

Here's something you may find interesting. Saddam started to sell oil in Euroes in 2000 (as Iran, Venezuala, and North Korea have all said they may do). But in 2003 when oil sales started again, it had mysteriously changed back to dollar sales.

quote:
Interesting that you feel my characterization of radical Islam sounds like something a Nazi would say. I would say that the practitioners of Islamic terror are acting like Nazis. In fact I would say they make Nazis seem cuddly.


No argument, you both use or believe in the same kind of hatefilled BS propoganda.
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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
h@ts said this in post #12 :


No argument, you both use or believe in the same kind of hatefilled BS propoganda.


It is so amazing that you think I am being hateful by labeling terrorists as hateful. Since when did it become intolerant to point out intolerance? The left does it all the time. In fact, they often use the label as a weapon to win debates with people who are not intolerant at all.

You really make my point with your position on this.
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Posted by: Dreamzwalker

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #13 :


The left does it all the time. .


What about the right?

oh i got it.

up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, A, B, select start.





quote:
EUCLID said this in post #13 :


It is so amazing that you think I am being hateful by labeling terrorists as hateful.



Your not being hateful to hate terrorists - your being honest and kind AND doing the world a favor by not agreeing with terrorist sympathizers
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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
Dreamzwalker said this in post #14 :


What about the right?

oh i got it.

up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, A, B, select start.








Your not being hateful to hate terrorists - your being honest and kind AND doing the world a favor by not agreeing with terrorist sympathizers


I'm not even saying that I hate the terrorists. I am just making the neutral observation that they are hateful.

By left, I am referring to the political left, most of whom are able to forgive terrorists because they feel that terrorists are really just good people driven by Bush to do bad things.
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #13 :
I'm not even saying that I hate the terrorists. I am just making the neutral observation that they are hateful.

By left, I am referring to the political left, most of whom are able to forgive terrorists because they feel that terrorists are really just good people driven by Bush to do bad things.



When you say "they" are "hateful", who are you talking about? Terrorist is a big all-encompassing label. America has been accused of terrorism and labelled a terrorist state - do "they hate"? So has Israel - do "they hate"? So when you say "they hate" do you mean Muslims, Lebanese, Hezbollah, Hamas, Arabs, Persians, Palestinians? Chechens, Al Qaeda, Sunnis, Shia, or who or what? It's a poor argument for what's going on, and merely makes it easier to stomach the death and destruction we're dolling out. Do you think that saying they "hate" us gives you any kind of insight into what's going on? Of course not, and that's why Bush uses the term "evil", so that people who can't or don't want to think needn't bother.

And btw - who's forgiven anyone for acts of violence and barbarity?
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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
h@ts said this in post #16 :



When you say "they" are "hateful", who are you talking about? Terrorist is a big all-encompassing label. America has been accused of terrorism and labelled a terrorist state - do "they hate"? So has Israel - do "they hate"? So when you say "they hate" do you mean Muslims, Lebanese, Hezbollah, Hamas, Arabs, Persians, Palestinians? Chechens, Al Qaeda, Sunnis, Shia, or who or what? It's a poor argument for what's going on, and merely makes it easier to stomach the death and destruction we're dolling out. Do you think that saying they "hate" us gives you any kind of insight into what's going on? Of course not, and that's why Bush uses the term "evil", so that people who can't or don't want to think needn't bother.

And btw - who's forgiven anyone for acts of violence and barbarity?


Sorry, I thought it was understood who we were talking about. To clarify, by "they," I am referring to the people who are committing or supporting terrorism and other types of violence in the name of Islam.

You ask if I think that saying they hate, gives insight as to what is going on. Yes, I think it is that simple. It is intolerance taken to the point of murder.
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #17 :


Sorry, I thought it was understood who we were talking about. To clarify, by "they," I am referring to the people who are committing or supporting terrorism and other types of violence in the name of Islam.

You ask if I think that saying they hate, gives insight as to what is going on. Yes, I think it is that simple. It is intolerance taken to the point of murder.


Intolerance is just another buzz word from the Bush government. What is this intolerance, and of what are "they" intolerant of? Do "they" want land, power, control, resources, self rule, religious dominance, occupiers off their land or what? Are "they" all the same? Do "they" all want the same thing?
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Posted by: Dreamzwalker

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #15 :


I'm not even saying that I hate the terrorists. I am just making the neutral observation that they are hateful.

By left, I am referring to the political left, most of whom are able to forgive terrorists because they feel that terrorists are really just good people driven by Bush to do bad things.



that's odd since terrorists have been around before bush was born - also, make sure to label if your talking about the Arab populace or terrorists because there are people here who can't tell the difference and label you as a racist like they did to me since they are too dumb to tell the difference when your refering to them.
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Posted by: Dreamzwalker

quote:
h@ts said this in post #18 :


Intolerance is just another buzz word from the Bush government.


was used before you were born for any axis, long before bush was born too -
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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
h@ts said this in post #18 :


Intolerance is just another buzz word from the Bush government. What is this intolerance, and of what are "they" intolerant of? Do "they" want land, power, control, resources, self rule, religious dominance, occupiers off their land or what? Are "they" all the same? Do "they" all want the same thing?


To the extent that "intolerance" is a buzzword, it is a buzzword distinctly used by leftists who usually couple the word with charges of racism, sexism, or homophobia.

Radical Islam is intolerant of anyone who does not want to adopt their lyfestyle and world view. What they want is to kill everone who disagrees with them. This is major, high horsepower, intolerance.
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Posted by: Dreamzwalker

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #21 :


Radical Islam is intolerant of anyone who does not want to adopt their lyfestyle and world view. What they want is to kill everone who disagrees with them. This is major, high horsepower, intolerance.


modern crusaders, some of the world moved past this, but the middle east technically never left the dark ages. The radical Islam groups still perform the same duties they did in the hundreds, just with different weapons but to the same goal.
Destroy all.
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #21 :


What they want is to kill everone who disagrees with them. This is major, high horsepower, intolerance.




This is ridiculous. Apart from the fact that there are a lot groups who want different things in different countries, no organisation would ever take off with such a ludicrous manefesto. I'm not talking about whether I agree or disagree with what certain militant, radical, Islamic, nationalistic, secular etc groups want, but to simplify it down to such a level is next to useless in understanding what is going on.
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
Dreamzwalker said this in post #22 :
the middle east technically never left the dark ages. The radical Islam groups still perform the same duties they did in the hundreds, just with different weapons but to the same goal.
Destroy all.


Again, ridiculous. America has for it's own interests for decades supported oppressive backward governments in the region, and this at the expense of more progressive movements. And America continues the practice in places such as Saudi Arabia to this day.

Do you know what happened in Iran in the late 50's? Britain and the US overthrew the DEMOCRATIC leader and replaced him whith a brutal dictator, the Shah. Are you surprised that the Iranian people turned to Ayatollah Khomeini and his revolution, given the fact that we thought we had the right to change their government to one that suited us better?
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Posted by: HECK!

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #15 :

By left, I am referring to the political left, most of whom are able to forgive terrorists because they feel that terrorists are really just good people driven by Bush to do bad things.


Who are these lefties that believe that? They are giving real democrats a bad name. Unless that's just more Bushism defeatist poor-right drivel.

-HECK!
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Posted by: Dreamzwalker

quote:
h@ts said this in post #24 :


Again, ridiculous.
Do you know what happened in Iran in the late 50's? Britain and the US overthrew the DEMOCRATIC leader and replaced him whith a brutal dictator, the Shah.


No its not ridiculous - what is ridiculous is the defending Terrorist bombers and comparing america to them. Has america done bad things - yes what country has not. Do we want bad things to happen? No but it will and does.

Nope - research the history of Arab FANATICS, i'm putting the WORD in caps so you i'm not talking about all arabs
and it dates way back to the day, late 500s AD - when mohammad pretty much killed all in mecca after being cast out of the city. Slaughted everyone. And from then on, any who oppose the belief of muslim has been destroyed or they attempted to destroy them. Early ottoman empire worked for complete genicide of all who were not muslim for a couple hundred years.
Until it fell a part. And now, the same types of groups blow up everything that isn't muslim (2006) - now, i am refering to terrorist FANATICS - i do not see a difference here. they are still pursuing the same goal that was pursued in the dark ages. Destroy the infidels mohammed said and they still follow that concept today. Hence, my comment that is now proven not ridiculous. You've heard Iran and other Arab states try to stir up FANATIC Arabs by saying death and utter annihilation to christian countries and Israel. Not ridiculous, same concept from 1500 years ago.

again have to emphasize WHO i'm talking about so people know . It seems that you do not see a difference between Arab and Arab fanatic. Just seems that way. There is a big difference. As there is a difference between a believer of any faith and a FANATIC of that given faith or belief.



If we are going to go on old school America did this America did that why don't we start talking about Germany did this and that, spain murdered millions of people as heretics, Brits killed thousands of scots and raped their women - Took over far more countries then America has -?
You do not have to remind me of what America did 56 years ago. i do know and i'm not happy about everything we've done. especially to the native indians .
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Posted by: Dreamzwalker

quote:
h@ts said this in post #23 :




This is ridiculous. Apart from the fact that there are a lot groups who want different things in different countries, no organisation would ever take off with such a ludicrous manefesto.

Sorry dude - Terrorists do want to kill everyone. Look at Iraq, the terrorists kill more of their own people then they do their target.
Remember, they want to get laid by 72 virgins and the best way to do that is to kill who ever is around in the name of FANATIC faith -

They, the FANATIC, said this i didn't - i didn't just pull it out of my ass , this is pure fact and if you don't believe then fly to Iran or some other country that said this and ask them if they REALLY ment it and REALLY said it. That's the only thing i can suggest.
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
Dreamzwalker said this in post #26 :
[B]No its not ridiculous - what is ridiculous is the defending Terrorist bombers and comparing america to them. Has america done bad things - yes what country has not. Do we want bad things to happen? No but it will and does.


Don't think you'll find me defending terrrorist bombers.

As for comparing the US to terrorists, I thnk in this and many other cases it's very justifiable. Installing a brutal dictator after overthrowing a democratic government for nationalising their own oil industry is pretty much bigger than anything any terrorist organisation has done. Or don't you think so?

I'm going our right now, but i'll reply to the rest of you post tomorrow. Cheers.
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Posted by: Dreamzwalker

quote:
h@ts said this in post #28 :


Don't think you'll find me defending terrrorist bombers.

As for comparing the US to terrorists, I thnk in this and many other cases it's very justifiable. Installing a brutal dictator after overthrowing a democratic government for nationalising their own oil industry is pretty much bigger than anything any terrorist organisation has done. Or don't you think so?

I'm going our right now, but i'll reply to the rest of you post tomorrow. Cheers.


This i can agree with. I do not like some of the things America or UK has done to try and boost one thing or another - as far as oil goes, i would like to see us do what Brazil is doing. Remove the need for oil completely. The contra wars also caused a big issue for the world in which we supplied osama with the means and funding to reach the goals he has.
I would like to see the large countries step down and stop controlling each other -
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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
h@ts said this in post #23 :




This is ridiculous. Apart from the fact that there are a lot groups who want different things in different countries, no organisation would ever take off with such a ludicrous manefesto. I'm not talking about whether I agree or disagree with what certain militant, radical, Islamic, nationalistic, secular etc groups want, but to simplify it down to such a level is next to useless in understanding what is going on.


It is simple. You can overcomplicate it if you are not careful.
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Posted by: Dreamzwalker

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #30 :


It is simple. You can overcomplicate it if you are not careful.



Sometims the most difficult question has the most simplistic answer.

E = MC2
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #30 :


It is simple. You can overcomplicate it if you are not careful.


There is nothing simple about what's going on in the Middle East. No doubt I do simplify it to a great extent but certainly not down to the leve of "What they want is to kill everone who disagrees with them." Is this your understanding of the situation in Israel/Palestine/Lebanon, and Iraq, and Iran etc.

Simplify this: why is Bush siding with the Shia in Iraq, who have close ties to Iran, who are supporting Hezbollah?
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Posted by: asantana

quote:
h@ts said this in post #32 :

Simplify this: why is Bush siding with the Shia in Iraq, who have close ties to Iran, who are supporting Hezbollah?


only God and Bush knows
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Posted by: asantana

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #17 :


Sorry, I thought it was understood who we were talking about. To clarify, by "they," I am referring to the people who are committing or supporting terrorism and other types of violence in the name of Islam.


what about people who are committing or supporting terrorism and other types of violence in the name of Judaism and Christianity.
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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
h@ts said this in post #32 :


There is nothing simple about what's going on in the Middle East.

Simplify this: why is Bush siding with the Shia in Iraq, who have close ties to Iran, who are supporting Hezbollah?


I don't know how you conclude who Bush is taking sides with in Iraq. But beyond that, what does it have to do with my contention that the root cause of the ongoing conflict is simple?

Granted, it may not be simple in the way the conflict plays out. However, if there was not some simple, underlying cause, it would be rather improbable to have so many different, intractable contract disputes popping up in one area for so long.

Let's just consider the current conflict between Hezbollah and Israel. Now I am not trying to make any point here about who is right or wrong in that conflict (or in our debate). This is just a straight out question that I cannot find the answer for. What is it that Hezbollah wants to achieve in this conflict? Obviously Israel would like to destroy Hezbollah, but what does Hezbollah hope to accomplish? Do they intend to destroy Israel by shooting rockets from Lebanon?

I have yet to hear anybody say what Hezbollah is trying to accomplish in this battle. What are your thoughts?
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Posted by: h@ts

Bush has worked with the majority Shia in the South, against one-time allies, the Sunni, who we need to call the "terrorsts", althought who knows anymore - just today a leaked memo stated that civil war is the most likely future for Iraq.

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #35 :
What is it that Hezbollah wants to achieve in this conflict? Obviously Israel would like to destroy Hezbollah, but what does Hezbollah hope to accomplish? Do they intend to destroy Israel by shooting rockets from Lebanon?

I have yet to hear anybody say what Hezbollah is trying to accomplish in this battle. What are your thoughts?


Initially, before israel attacked Lebanon, you could take your pick on the things that Hezbollah wanted to achieve: get Israel to release captured Lebanese; distract attention from Iran's nuclear ambtions; show support for the Palastinians, who had by this time come under attack for caturing an Israeli soldier. I'm sure there are more reasons but these are the one's that spring to mind.

Now it's a whole different kettle of fish. Hezbollah only need to be seen not to lose, to humiliate the American backed IDF. This already appears to be turning them into regional heroes, which will no doubt lead to more support. If Hezbollah can continue to fire rockets at Israel, they may not do a great deal of damage (by comparison) but they show Israel (and the rest of the Arab world) that Israel cannot defeat Hezbollah, militarily. Something you'd think Israel would already know. So success is different things to different groups.
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Posted by: h@ts

......

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Posted by: P.O.T.U.S.

quote:
Dreamzwalker said this in post #31 :



Sometims the most difficult question has the most simplistic answer.

E = MC2




Most of the time, a cigar is just that, a cigar. Most of the time, Islamofascism is just that, Islamofascism.
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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
h@ts said this in post #36 :





Now it's a whole different kettle of fish. Hezbollah only need to be seen not to lose, to humiliate the American backed IDF. This already appears to be turning them into regional heroes, which will no doubt lead to more support. If Hezbollah can continue to fire rockets at Israel, they may not do a great deal of damage (by comparison) but they show Israel (and the rest of the Arab world) that Israel cannot defeat Hezbollah, militarily. Something you'd think Israel would already know. So success is different things to different groups.


I understand and agree with what you say. However, it seems that in order to show that Israel cannot defeat them, Hezbollah cannot stop fighting on their own accord. As long as they fight, Israel will too.

I suppose that the longer Hezbollah can hold on and continue to fight, the stronger they appear. But if they stop, they lose. Maybe by appearing strong by continuing the fight, Hezbollah might attract support sufficient to destroy Israel.

Or Hezbollah may save face by heeding the world's call for a cease fire. If, today, Hezbollah announced a cease fire to appease the world community, and then stopped fighting and pulled back, what would Israel's response be?
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Posted by: HECK!

Isreal's response would be the same if Al Qaeda announced a cease fire to the U.S. We/they would try to smash the rest into the ground.

Hezbollah is waging a war similar to Al Qaeda in that sense. You can't destroy a leader, headquarters or scorch the land enough to quash the entire group. Loosely affiliated groups can take up the Hezbollah moniker at any time to continue their agenda. Hezbollah does have more to lose in Lebanon, having a stranglehold on the country. A cease fire would save them but I think it might be too late.

-HECK!

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Posted by: EUCLID

Well since my last post, Hezbollah has announced that they will cease fire if Israel will. If Israel refuses, Hez said they will hit Tel Aviv.

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Posted by: Dreamzwalker

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #41 :
Well since my last post, Hezbollah has announced that they will cease fire if Israel will. If Israel refuses, Hez said they will hit Tel Aviv.



I would support it if they stuck to it - but being the liars they are, they just want time to regroup.
Its not a cease fire, its a simple time out in the middle of their game because they are losing currently. They need to huddle.
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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
Dreamzwalker said this in post #42 :



I would support it if they stuck to it - but being the liars they are, they just want time to regroup.
Its not a cease fire, its a simple time out in the middle of their game because they are losing currently. They need to huddle.


AND --

They know Israel will probably not accept it, so Hezbollah will be perceived by the world to have the moral high ground for having made the offer, while Israel will be seen as the stubborn bully. And everybody knows that the little guy has a right to stick up for himself when confronted by a bully.

No, Hezbollas's disingenuous offer of a cease fire is just as much of a weapon as the rockets they fire.
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Posted by: Dreamzwalker

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #43 :


AND --


No, Hezbollas's disingenuous offer of a cease fire is just as much of a weapon as the rockets they fire.


Hizb'allah is also the fart in the elevator that won't go away with normal environmentally safe airfresheners.

Of course most of the world will end up liking Hizb'allah.
isn't that the way it is ?
oh look the terrorist wants to change their ways but Israel won't let them! boo boo israel
if israel takes them up on it - bet you within 3 years we will see the same thing we are now - again started by Hiab'allah
it will repeat,
Hizb'allah will say cease fire - the world will again back the terrorist group, and make israel out to be the bad man.



Why is it that when terrorists come up against America and U.K. people can't stand to see them get away with it - but if Israel attacks a terrorist its - boo boo israel go terrorist?
blind the people are for sure
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
Dreamzwalker said this in post #44 :
Of course most of the world will end up liking Hizb'allah.


Well a lot of the Arab world, anyway.

quote:
isn't that the way it is ?


That's the problem with destorying a country, it's not the way to make friends and influence people.

quote:
if israel takes them up on it - bet you within 3 years we will see the same thing we are now - again started by Hiab'allah
it will repeat,


Maybe, maybe not. So no solution from either side.

quote:
Hizb'allah will say cease fire - the world will again back the terrorist group, and make israel out to be the bad man.


How does the world back Hezbollah? That is a ridiculous statement. The fact that much of the world is horrified by Israel's assault and destruction of Lebanon does not equal support for Hezbollah.

Iran and Syria back Hezbollah. But it's dwarfed by America's backing of Israel - $3billion a year.

Whatever Iran and Syria think, most of the world believes Israel has a right to exist, and would support that right.

quote:
Why is it that when terrorists come up against America and U.K. people can't stand to see them get away with it - but if Israel attacks a terrorist its - boo boo israel go terrorist?
blind the people are for sure


America and the UK foreign policy is not supported by much of the world. It is supported by a select few governments, such as Australia and Spain. The world-wide 2003 marches protesting the attack on Iraq were the biggest anti warprotests ever seen.
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #43 :


AND --

They know Israel will probably not accept it, so Hezbollah will be perceived by the world to have the moral high ground for having made the offer, while Israel will be seen as the stubborn bully. And everybody knows that the little guy has a right to stick up for himself when confronted by a bully.


You say this as if it's a given that Israel stick to things they say.

Well one part of the American made road-map to peace was that settlement expansions would immediately stop. But when Israel moved out of Gaza, they did in fact expand the settlements in the West Bank. They used the Gaza pullout to distract attention for just this purpose. Who noticed? Do you think maybe the Palastinians?

Israel had 7,000 illegal settlers in the Gaza Strip. But there is 182,000 illegal settlers in the West Bank.
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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
h@ts said this in post #46 :


You say this as if it's a given that Israel stick to things they say.

Well one part of the American made road-map to peace was that settlement expansions would immediately stop. But when Israel moved out of Gaza, they did in fact expand the settlements in the West Bank. They used the Gaza pullout to distract attention for just this purpose. Who noticed? Do you think maybe the Palastinians?

Israel had 7,000 illegal settlers in the Gaza Strip. But there is 182,000 illegal settlers in the West Bank.


This may be true, but what I said had nothing to do with Israel's performance. It was simply an observatiion about the motive of Hezbollah in offering a cease fire.
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #47 :


This may be true, but what I said had nothing to do with Israel's performance. It was simply an observatiion about the motive of Hezbollah in offering a cease fire.


Sorry, that post was directed at Dreamzwalker's post:

quote:
Dreamzwalker: I would support it if they stuck to it - but being the liars they are, they just want time to regroup.
Its not a cease fire, its a simple time out in the middle of their game because they are losing currently. They need to huddle.


Israel did say they would call some kind of cease-fire and then carried on firing.

I think Israel know they can't defeat Hezbollah and this isn't about that anyway. It's more likely that this whole incursion into Lebanon and the destruction of an Arab country is about the war they really want to encourage - a US attack on Iran and Syria, and regime change in both countries.

Could Israel get America to start two wars? Does the US even need any encouragement to attack Iran and Syria, Rice has after all used the phrase a "new Middle East". What is she talking about. All we need is some kind of military action from either countries adn we can send the jets in. How long does Israel pound Lebanon to get a reaction?
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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
h@ts said this in post #48 :


Sorry, that post was directed at Dreamzwalker's post:



Israel did say they would call some kind of cease-fire and then carried on firing.

I think Israel know they can't defeat Hezbollah and this isn't about that anyway. It's more likely that this whole incursion into Lebanon and the destruction of an Arab country is about the war they really want to encourage - a US attack on Iran and Syria, and regime change in both countries.

Could Israel get America to start two wars? Does the US even need any encouragement to attack Iran and Syria, Rice has after all used the phrase a "new Middle East". What is she talking about. All we need is some kind of military action from either countries adn we can send the jets in. How long does Israel pound Lebanon to get a reaction?


Israel did say they would cease fire for 48 hours about a week ago. I am not sure of the details, but I thought it was to move civilians out or get aid in, or something like that. I did not hear them say that the cease fire was contingent on Hezbollah likewise ceasing fire. In any case, Hezbollah destroyed an Israeli tank about a day into the cease fire, and Israel called off their cease fire before it expired according to the original intent.

So it is somewhat ambiguous as to whether Israel reneged on their ceasefire or legitimately suspended it because they were attacked by Hezbollah. However, I could not help but notice that most of the U.S. network TV coverage definitely implied that the fighting had resumed because Israel "broke their promise" of a ceasefire.

I think the U.S. and Israel would like to attack Syria and Iran, but do not have enough reason yet. If either country directly joins the effort of Hezbollah, Israel will definitely retaliate against whichever country does so. But even if Israel draws the line at attacking Iran and Syria, since Hezbollah is acting on behalf of those countries, I think Israel intends to completely destroy Hezbollah (physically) in order to inflict as much of a set back as possible upon Iran and Syria while stopping short of directly attacking them.
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Posted by: oneofpeace

First, Israel never offered a cease fire, they offered to stop the airstikes for 48hrs. Secondly, Hezbollah did hit an Israeli tank during this same day. Israel also said during this acceptance that Israel reserves the right to preemptively strike any Hezbollah setting up missiles to fire at Israel during this time.

With regards to h@ts assertion that Israel wants a war with Arab countries for regime change I think may be a bit far fetched. I believe they would like a change, especially in Iran who seems to be behind these latest events.

We still fail to see any blame places on Hezbollah or Iran amongst most Arab countries. The guy now heading Iraq had the audacity to blame Israel for all the confusion there and while we have Muslims killing Muslims in Iraq by the hundreds per day, somehow they seem to be all up at arms about Israel & Lebanon civilians taking a beating.

Again, we have Iran calling for Israeli’s destruction and again it’s largely ignored amongst Muslims world wide. Imagine if you would the Israel called for the destruction of Palestine and armed militias to attack them.

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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
oneofpeace said this in post #50 :
We still fail to see any blame places on Hezbollah or Iran amongst most Arab countries.


Hezbollah are seen as fighting an heroic battle in the Middle East against a vastly stronger, US backed military, and whatever support Iran and Syria are giving it does not equate to Apache helicopters, F-16 jets, tanks, precision bombs, satallite intelligence etc. Governments in the region are coming under stick from their own people for their lack of support for Hezbollah, so it's hardly surprising they aren't blaming Hezbollah. Remember this is Israel, hardly anyone's friend in the region, fighting an asymmetrical war, destroying an Arab country. I don't know if this is the case but it wouldn't surprise me if in the region this is being portratyed as a David Goliath battle.

quote:
The guy now heading Iraq had the audacity to blame Israel for all the confusion there and while we have Muslims killing Muslims in Iraq by the hundreds per day, somehow they seem to be all up at arms about Israel & Lebanon civilians taking a beating.


I don't understand where you're coming from with this Muslim killing Muslim argument. A civil war in Iraq could hardly be anything esle but. What's religion got to do with it?

And althought this may be a shock to you, the Iraqi leader no doubt actually believes it's wrong for two powerful nation states - Israel and the US - to choose to destroy Lebanon. The knock on effect could be far reaching.

quote:
Again, we have Iran calling for Israeli’s destruction and again it’s largely ignored amongst Muslims world wide.


The Iranian leader is an idiot, and providing Israel with a PR godsend. But what's worse, Bush giving Israel the weapons and green light to actually destroy a country, or a load of hot air from a fool who probably isn't the real power in Iran, anyway?

quote:
Imagine if you would the Israel called for the destruction of Palestine and armed militias to attack them.


That's rich. Israel don't need to call for anything, they just do it, and with the billions of dollars of weapons given to them thanks to America inc.
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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
h@ts said this in post #51 :


Remember this is Israel... fighting an asymmetrical war, destroying an Arab country.

But what's worse, Bush giving Israel the weapons and green light to actually destroy a country, or a load of hot air from a fool who probably isn't the real power in Iran, anyway?





You keep saying that Israel is destroying the whole country of Lebanon. This seems like an exaggeration to make your point. I agree that a lot of Lebanon has been destroyed, and more probably will be. But Israel's stated intent is to destroy Hezbollah, not all of Lebanon. I don't believe that the whole of Lebanon must be destroyed in order to destroy all of Hezbollah.

On the other hand, the leader of Iran has announced his intent to destroy all of Israel, and yet, you easily dismiss that as the ranting of a fool, implying there is no need to worry because he will never carried it out. However, he is carrying it out as best he can today, with the use of Hezbollah.

It sounds to me like you are waging an asymmetrical argument on this point of the destruction of Lebanon versus the destruction of Israel.
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Posted by: Dreamzwalker

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #52 :




On the other hand, the leader of Iran has announced his intent to destroy all of Israel, and yet, you easily dismiss that as the ranting of a fool, implying there is no need to worry because he will never carried it out.


Of course - didn't you know that only Israel lies - how could an amazing Arab leader - amazing in the eyes of those that support terror lie?. come on, he doesn't lie. i mean, a little stone in a japanese rock garden lies more.
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Posted by: oneofpeace

quote:
h@ts wrote
Hezbollah are seen as fighting an heroic battle in the Middle East against a vastly stronger, US backed military, and whatever support Iran and Syria are giving it does not equate to Apache helicopters, F-16 jets, tanks, precision bombs, satallite intelligence etc.


I think you’re solidifying my point here h@ts. Because Hezbollah are seen as heroes, nothing they do will ever amount to criticism amongst Muslims around the world simply because they dare take on the evil devils, the Israelis. So why could anyone expect to hear their cries as fair or balanced?

Secondly, Israel is a State, they are not armed militia. Iran could easily choose to give weaponry to the Lebanese government but they choose not to do this. And because Hezbollah doesn’t have F-16s and tanks don’t automate autonomy for their actions.

quote:

I don't understand where you're coming from with this Muslim killing Muslim argument. A civil war in Iraq could hardly be anything esle but. What's religion got to do with it?


My point is simply this. Muslims everywhere are crying out against the US in Iraq and against what they perceive as Israeli aggression against Palestinians, Lebanese and Hezbollah. History of the region show that the common denominator isn’t Israel or the US but wars in the region go on between different religious groups killing one Muslim after the next.

The message it sends is that we can kill each other by the thousands but no one other than Arabs or Muslims can, no matter how legit or illegit the reasons may be.

quote:

the Iraqi leader no doubt actually believes it's wrong for two powerful nation states - Israel and the US - to choose to destroy Lebanon. The knock on effect could be far reaching.


Of course he does but again he makes no other claims as to culpability. How can you blame someone else for spreading a fire you set ablaze in the first place?

For the record, I don’t agree with what’s taking place either but if Hezbollah cared more about the Lebanese than their perceptions in the Arab world of standing against the mighty Israelis, then they would have surrendered the soldiers they captured. I guess the lives of their fighters in Israeli jails are more worthy than the ones being killed by the consequences of their ill thought out actions.

quote:

The Iranian leader is an idiot, and providing Israel with a PR godsend. But what's worse, Bush giving Israel the weapons and green light to actually destroy a country, or a load of hot air from a fool who probably isn't the real power in Iran, anyway?


He’s their elected president and he represents Iran leadership. The Ayatollah echoes the same sentiment.

Also their decision to arm a militia better than the country they are taking down the toilet with them speaks irrevocably of their true intentions.

I don’t believe Israel thinks Iran’s prez is a Godsend. To be honest, he’s just saying out loud what those in that region really want to accomplish.
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
EUCLID said this in post #52 :
[B]

You keep saying that Israel is destroying the whole country of Lebanon. This seems like an exaggeration to make your point.


One thing it's not is an exaggeration. The basic infrastructure is steadily being destroyed. Without infrastructure there is no country.

quote:
I agree that a lot of Lebanon has been destroyed, and more probably will be. But Israel's stated intent is to destroy Hezbollah, not all of Lebanon.


Who cares what Israel state. It's what they do that counts. Israel keep saying they are defending themselves, which is BS propoganda.

quote:
I don't believe that the whole of Lebanon must be destroyed in order to destroy all of Hezbollah.


They haven't a cat in hells chance of destroying Hezbollah. They know it, you know it. So what are they doing?

quote:
On the other hand, the leader of Iran has announced his intent to destroy all of Israel, and yet, you easily dismiss that as the ranting of a fool, implying there is no need to worry because he will never carried it out.


Iran may have intent and blow hot air but they do nothing. Israel on the other hand, ARE destroying a country, but they still claim to be victims in this. It's now known that this attack on Lebanon was planned well before the two soldiers were taken captive.

quote:
However, he is carrying it out as best he can today, with the use of Hezbollah.


What best? Look with your own eyes at what is happening. Israel can destory a whole country in weeks. How much of a threat to Israel are Hezbollah?

quote:
It sounds to me like you are waging an asymmetrical argument on this point of the destruction of Lebanon versus the destruction of Israel.


Right, the whole world can see how Israel's on it's last legs
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
Dreamzwalker said this in post #53 :


Of course - didn't you know that only Israel lies - how could an amazing Arab leader - amazing in the eyes of those that support terror lie?. come on, he doesn't lie. i mean, a little stone in a japanese rock garden lies more.


Obviously both sides lie. War is all about lying and propoganda. Why do you presume Israel is telling the truth? And this crap about supporting terrorism. How can a state destroy a country and not call it terrorism. It's ridiculous.
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Posted by: EUCLID

quote:
h@ts said this in post #55 :


One thing it's not is an exaggeration. The basic infrastructure is steadily being destroyed. Without infrastructure there is no country.

They haven't a cat in hells chance of destroying Hezbollah. They know it, you know it. So what are they doing?



Yes infrastructure is being destroyed, but you are leaping to the conlcusion that the whole country will be destroyed. How do you know that? How much has been destroyed so far? I'll bet the fraction that expresses the portiion of Lebanon destroyed so far is less than 1/10,000th.

I did not say that Irael will destroy Hezbollah. I only said that if they did so, they still would not need to destroy all of Lebanon to do so.

How can you conclude that the entire country of Leganon is being destroyed before that outcome arrives? I think you exaggerate to make the case for the unfairness of Israel.
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Posted by: Dreamzwalker

quote:
h@ts said this in post #56 :


Obviously both sides lie. War is all about lying and propoganda. Why do you presume Israel is telling the truth? And this crap about supporting terrorism. How can a state destroy a country and not call it terrorism. It's ridiculous.


I get a lot of info that the news doesn't state that hizb'allah and other terrorist factions have done to Israel straight from a couple jewish and non-jewish people that are living over there.
I know someone who was in a bombing over there. well, more my parents then me - but they've sent pictures they took and other stuff - some are missionaries from my church as well. I've seen a lot of stuff that i've NEVER seen in the news.
Are they lying? nope - some of it reaches the news about 2-3 weeks after i hear about it.
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
Dreamzwalker said this in post #58 :


I get a lot of info that the news doesn't state that hizb'allah and other terrorist factions have done to Israel straight from a couple jewish and non-jewish people that are living over there.
I know someone who was in a bombing over there. well, more my parents then me - but they've sent pictures they took and other stuff - some are missionaries from my church as well. I've seen a lot of stuff that i've NEVER seen in the news.
Are they lying? nope - some of it reaches the news about 2-3 weeks after i hear about it.


I don't know what you're trying to say. News has to be selective, and always will be. I don't know about the States but watching the TV news in the Uk, there appears to be nothing going on in Gaza. It's been virtually ignored in the last 3 weeks since Israel started bombing Lebanon.

The propoganda I'm talking about comes from government and the military. Part of war is the use of propoganda to further your war goals. You can't expect the truth from either government or the military - why would they be interested in telling anyone the truth if it damages those goals?
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Posted by: Dreamzwalker

quote:
h@ts said this in post #59 :


I don't know what you're trying to say. News has to be selective, and always will be. I don't know about the States but watching the TV news in the Uk, there appears to be nothing going on in Gaza. It's been virtually ignored in the last 3 weeks since Israel started bombing Lebanon.

The propoganda I'm talking about comes from government and the military. Part of war is the use of propoganda to further your war goals. You can't expect the truth from either government or the military - why would they be interested in telling anyone the truth if it damages those goals?


I was just refering in general that much of what goes on never reaches our ears via media unless they think it is important enough.
i didn't say anything about gaza - are they lying? possibly.
all i know is they react when attacked and then the other side reacts back when attacked - its back and forth back and forth.
its a see-saw
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Posted by: h@ts

quote:
Dreamzwalker said this in post #60 :


I was just refering in general that much of what goes on never reaches our ears via media unless they think it is important enough.
i didn't say anything about gaza - are they lying? possibly.


I was just saying broadcast news doesn't necessarily lie, although different organisations can be biased in how they present the news, but the government and military do lie and it's as much a part of the war as the bombs. If reporters are too lazy or can't afford to find things out themselves then they merely report the spoonfed lies given to them at government press conferences, which isn't news, it's propoganda.

The media isn't lying about Gaza, it's just not reporting the story. Iraq hardly gets a mention these days despite the appaling amount of deaths every day.

quote:
all i know is they react when attacked and then the other side reacts back when attacked - its back and forth back and forth.
its a see-saw


A seemingly never ending conflict that's caused trouble around the entire globe for 50 years. But since 9/11 we're apparently taking it serously, but I don't see things getting better in the Middle East. On the contrary, Bush and the necons policy is tuning into a nightmare.
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Posted by: malcolm xx

quote:
P.O.T.U.S. said this in post #1 :
Hezbollah is Our Enemy, Too
By Jeff Jacoby
Monday, July 31, 2006

According to a pair of Gallup polls released last week, 83 percent of Americans say Israel is justified in taking military action against Hezbollah, while 76 percent disapprove of Hezbollah's attacks on Israel. Yet when asked which side in the conflict the United States should take, 65 percent answer: neither side. Indeed, 3 in 4 Americans say they are concerned that the US military will be drawn into the fighting, or that it will increase the likelihood of terrorism against the United States.