Death of Lebanese v Israelis: moral equivalance?

Israel & Palestine Forum

It seems to me that the proportionality is fairly equivalent. Both sides kept up with each other, ramping up in proportion. You could say that Israel over reacted to the kidnapping of two soldiers, but it did not really just start there.

But here is something else: If someone is shooting at you from behind innocent women and children, and you shoot back and kill the women and children, who's to blame for their deaths? Certainly the women and children are not to blame, but who is? It seems to me that the answer is plain and simple. What do you think?

John Bolton is a God-damned nazi and I don't know why he is our ambassador.

Boo that man.

Despite the assertions that it takes 2 to tango, I say it takes only one to screw it up for everyone. I don’t know what they expect of Israel when they keep bombing and shelling. Maybe they keep it up because Israel had never displayed this type of response against their lunacies.

They remind me of someone who continues to pick at the bigger guy until he turns around and blackens their eye. Then they scream unfair because they didn’t hit him that hard.

Well, maybe if there was an issue where Bush wasn't so inept the media wouldn't portray him that way.

-HECK!

Ah, yes, John Bolton. The man with the caterpillar on his upper lip.

Of course that is bolderdash.

It is along the lines of a friend of mine saying and I quote: "Doesn't Israel's actions show their respect for life? All this fighting just to save 3 of their soldiers."

And she was serious. I mean, my viewpoint is highly swayed in favor of Israel, but some of the crap that comes out of people's mouths is just plain ludicrous.

And just for the record, the majority of the media, including CNN and the BBC are completely anti Israel and have been for a long time.

Their is a major difference between how the Hezbollah operates and the IDF.

Whenever I see Israeli tanks, they are in the desert and other areas where civilians are not found.

Hezbollah, Hamas and all the other terrorist groups hide in areas where civilians are located. They hide behind women and children.

Has anyone considered this difference in their modes of operation?

It's no wonder that the civilian dead in Lebanon are greater in number.

I suggest these sneaky madmen consider taking on the IDF outside the areas where civilian's are not located.

And while the IDF is at it....take control of the West Bank and full control of Jerusalem and Bethlehem.

If these terrorists want to fight, do it with true honor and dignity, not like some smarmy army hiding behind innocents.

Another thing. Why is it that foreigners in Israel are not being led out in cruise ships??? Doesn't anyone want to leave Israel?

And yet another. Why does Israel have bomb shelters and Lebanon doesn't?

A lot of people feel that it is unfair for Israel to inflict damage on Lebanon because the enemy is Hezbollah, not Lebanon. Moreover, they say that Lebanon is not strong enough to control Hezbollah, so they should not be held responsible for the actions of Hezbollah.

So is Israel now destroying Lebanon, or are they merely performing a life saving operation on Lebanon in order to rid it of the malignant cancer that is Hezbollah?

In a weird way Israel could be doing Hezbollah by leaving Lebanon a fiery mess. If there already weakened government his shattered Hezbollah will be right there to pick up the pieces. Or perhaps Lebanon will have no choice to join Hezbollah and/or give them total military control. Israel could just be a catalyst to a coup, thus giving Iran and Syria another ally in the Middle East.

-HECK!

Not just that but when the Lebanese get over the border into Syria Hizbollah resp are waiting for them and giving them food, water, shelter and in some cases money as a result the people start thinking that Hizbollah are alright and they gain more support.

I also saw on SKy news today amn exclusive report in to a part of Lebanon that had been "Pinpoint bombed" however the reporters sneaked in an belive me it was no pinpoint bombing because nothhing in that city is left standing it was indiscriminate bombing plain and simple.

The carnage would stop if the terrorists handed over the soldiers and stopped firing rockets into Israel.

Is that going to happen?

There are reasons why Israel has such a strong military force...

First, they are a sovereign nation per the United Nations in 1948.
Second, they are surrounded by enemies who want to annihilate Israel.
Thirdly, they may be a small country in comparison to the surrounding enemy nations, but they pack a huge whallop, for good reason: survival.
Fourthly, and most importantly, don't mess with YHVH's children, even if many deny Him.

Negotiating a swap with Hezbollah would serve nothing better but for them to do it again. That’s why they did it in the first place and it has to stop.

I hope all of Hezbollah gets wipe out although it’s impossible. Some other line of people will rise up and inflame the violence once again while the Arab world once more blame Israel for it all. .

Israel take prisoners responsible for attacks. They know who and go after them. Hezbollah and Hamas grab any Israeli in sight.

Lastly, if Israel had started bombing Lebanon and Hezbollah came in and kidnapped and killed soldiers while firing rockets into Israel, then I'd blame Israel for this mess.

Hezbollah bares the burden and Lebanon is paying the price for supporting them. Does this make Israel right for the excessive force? No, it doesn't but I understand their frustration at these Arab nations that continue to support these militant groups that attack them.

You all have good points...

and each one of us has a point to make becuase we have interest on each of the sides.

but you have to look at this conflict impartially, if you start to take sides you will lose the ability to understand clearly what is right and what is wrong.

Firstly Lebanon as a country had done nothing to Israel, it is a few idiots called hisbullah who have decided to attack a powerful country with great military resources, which they know they cannot beat.

Now is it justified for Israel to go and destroy a whole country on the pretences of 2 soldiers. Would it not be true to say that Israel have been taking captives from palastine for the past 25 years, a many of whome were inoocent captives, not forgetting innocent lives for the past 25 years.

The figures for what the Israelis have killed and destroyed would be in the thousands, whereas not justifying these extremists such as hamas and hizbullah have only managed to kill a few hundred.

The matter of the fact is, it does'nt matter who killed more or who killed less, they are both in the wrong. but why has this wrong come about, why have organisation such as hamas and hisbullah become created.

Organisation such as this are created by individuals, who decide that every day they see themselves and there relatives being treated like animals by another stronger group of people. If Israel had been fair with its handling of the palestine crisis from the begining, groups such as hamas and hisbullah would have never been created.

Israel has wanted land and more land since we can remember the begining of this conflict. Why do us humans kill each other for land and money, why this urge to do this to fellow human beings. The truth behind it is that it is not us humans doing it but a few in power. who sit in there protected buildings and don't dare ever go in a war themselves, but use there armies to get political gains.

We are all used as an excuse and hate is built in within us by the media that is owned by these money hungry fat cats. The media only has to tell one lie about another, and it begins the process of hate. Though at the end it comes down to us, it becomes our fault as we always listen to just one side of the story, why not go and speak to the person who we have heard is trying to harm us.

This brings us to the question, why is Israel and america not willing to negotiate with syria, when they have said we want to talk and solve this problem. This openly shows that America and Israel want this to happen. It is strategic warfare.

Israel is full of good and honest people, but again these people have no voice, they are told and so they believe, they do not wish to go and ask there arab brothers why do you wish to hurt us.

I can only see one conclusion to this conflict, and that is a much bigger war, in a much larger scale. we might be heading towards ww3 and all because some idiots who the rest of the arab world disassociate themselves with, kidnapped two soldiers.

We need to weigh the scales here.

http://www.templetreasures.org/israeli%20flag%201.jpg

Sh'alu Shalom Yerushalayim

Well that's not entirely true for a start any support that Hizbollah gets inside Lebanbion is from the Lebanese public not the government and at any rate that financila support is minimal. The vast majority of cash, weapons, intel etc comes from Syria ( Hizbollahs internatianol HQ is in Syria) and Iran hough again not a huge amount more vocal than anything else.

The Lebanese have in the past tried to crush Hizbolah but when they tried to get intel the people clammed up either through fear or support. They still sent troops in aginst the wishes of the Hizbollah MP's making them break the Lebanese constitution, but the army ws outgunned by the Hizbollah fighters. The fact that the UN, EU, 6 of the G8, sand the more moderate ME countries see Lebanon as a seprate from Hizbollah tells it's own story.

As we have said before as far asd Lebanon goes it is not exactly crawling with Hizbollah we are talking about mainly the South not the whole country.

Hizbullah is killing their own people by antagonizing the Israelis. "Antagonizing" is used as a euphemism here.

Until these terrorists groups make war without hiding behind civilians like cowards...I blame these terrorist groups for the deaths of the civilians, not Israel.

I think h@ts nailed it on the head. Hezbollah is popular throughout the Arab world. This speaks volumes since the entire world hates Israel.

Secondly, the Lebanese suffer Hezbollah to be in their communities and votes them in their governments. They absolutely know they have a charter to destroy Israel. Why would anyone with any common sense have to wonder why they are now in dire straights?

H@ts seem to be under the impression that because a party is elected into government that this is automatic autonomy of their past deeds and future goals and ambitions. And even though they are dedicated to destroying another sovereign state, he believes that the international community should surrender to their stubborn ideologies and “deal with them”.

I say this, if you vote an armed militia into your government why in heavens name would you wonder why your country is at war?

Well Euclid claiming that the news media is biased sounds like Arabs when they claim that these same news orgs are biased against them. Hezbollah will get every mile out of the media they can as they hide their missiles under the hospital and await an Israel bomb to hit it for propaganda.

If time has proved anything it has proved that the only language militias like Hezbollah understand is war and unfortunately this guy who touts himself as the descendant of Muhammad will cause much carnage before he meets his fate, hopefully real soon.

I was watching media coverage of how these guys make animated suicide bombing videos glorifying the acts. Their ideologies consists of martyrdom is greater than victory in Allah’s eyes. How could any self respecting brainwashed young Islamist refuse such a handy offer to go to paradise and get 99 virgins. Talk about what men won’t do for a piece of a**. But isn’t it funny that Nasrallah isn’t lining up for his pick of the virgin litter?

Media and antiIsrael bias.. I will give one link that shows the dirt they throw on top of Israel every waking and sleeping moment. The Palestinian Media Watch. This entity chronicles how the "Palestinians" indoctrinate their children from birth practically to fuel hatred for Israel and the Jews.
Complete with festive music hip-hop videos.

http://www.pmw.org.il/

The problem is...ABC, BBC, CNN have bought into these lies...and it's no wonder we have Europeans and Americans slamming Israel. They call for a cease fire in the middle of war. What kind of nutjobs have bought into these lies! I don't know if people are just plain stupid, or it brings out the Jew haters or both.

The EU and the UN are as great a foe against Israel as the terrorist groups.

It seems the UN regrets voting for the statehood of Israel in 1948.

Raven says that if Israel had been fair in their treatment of Palistinians in the first place, terrorist organizations would never have been formed.

You know that has to be wrong, Raven, because Iran and many other Islamic countries have stated that their purpose in life is to see Israel exterminated. No matter what Israel did, other than self-destruct, those Islamic states would have found ways to try to get rid of Israel. Only every time they try, Israel kicks the crap out of them. It seems to me that Egypt is the one country who has learned its lession about fighting Israel way back in 1967 because they haven't bothered Israel since. Good for Egypt. It didn't take two brick walls to fall on them. Just one.

Right on Kerry02, These Jew hating countries and their terrorist militias hate Israel for one main reason: Israel exists. And they won't stop fighting until Israel is in the sea. Some people don't realize that Israel is fighting for their very survival. What nation on this earth today has that same problem? None. Although, the terrorists feel they need to take down the USA in the process.

By the way, Egypt is not out of the mix. Egypt's parliamentarians called for arming with nukes at Israel just last week.

Having heard what actions and words the new Canadian Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, has made in relation to Israel, I believe Canada will be blessed by his support of Israel.

Let me tell you wonderful people a little truth that you forget.

Do you know why you have Israel, becuase in the time of need your muslim brothers gave you a place to stay, and welcomed you with open arms.

This was ofcourse in the second world war when millions of jews were displaced in europe. It was at this time the arabs welcomed jews into there homes and worked with them to start a new life.

The arabs had no reason to hate Jews. It was when Israel was created and the Jews decided to force arabs out of there homes to take there land that the plaestine conflict started. Muslims have truely been punished for helping another in time of need. Though I agree with you on the point that extremism is the biggest factor for the problems in muslim countries. Extremists views have to be crushed to develop a successful society and community. Though from the heart majority of the muslim population, which is one of the biggest around the world is not bad.

Israel is fighting for the crimes it has commited. It has killed thousands upon thousands of innocent people and this is always on there conscience, that is why fear always lurks behind the doors of Israel, because they always fear retaliation in relation to there crimes. Israel has broken almost all geneva convention articles, and I don't see them to be a fair state in the world.

I do not condone what Iran says about Israel, but the thing is they only say it, whereas Israel go out and do it. It is not Iran or Lebanon or syria attacking Israel, but Israel attacking them. These countries have said they want open talks to solve the problem, but neither America and absolutely not Israel will hold dialogue.

I see muslims and Jews to be the closest thing there are to brothers, as were Isaac and Ishmael the two sons of Abraham.

But neither have the heart anymore or understanding anymore for one another, they have lost all compassion.

I hope Israel will retreat before this gets any worse. For the sake of us and our planet and our world. No one elses but us humans.

Its strange how "the jews" remain the victims regardless of their actions. I couldn't care less if they were Hindu, Muslim or part of David Corish's sect, bulldozing civilian homes to the ground constitutes a war crime, deliberately targetting civilian infrastructure and therefore by default, civilians, constitutes a war crime. I am sick of hearing Israeli ministers speaking to journalists about Lebanon not being the target, that Hezbollah is the target, when have inflicted a "humanitarian catastrophe" on the lebanese people.
Hezbollah are the product of Israeli military action against Lebanon. It is perfectly clear that this sort of action, along with US foreign policy, creates the contexts whereby the "terrorist" phenomonon thrives. As long as Israel occupies, humiliates and kills Palestinians in occupied Palestine, incurs into soveirgn states and disproportionately attacks nations guilty of no crime, then there will always be people ready to fight back.
Israel has created through its actions the paranoia it suffers as a result. By creating victims you automatically create the context for revenge attacks.
It sickens me to hear people say Israel is fighting for its very survival. For its very survival it oppresses and kills Palestinians on a daily basis. Israel will forever be "fighting for its survival" by bombing cities and towns and ensuring other darker neighbours survival remains in jeopardy. How in good God can the Holocaust continue be USED as a righteous and valid reason to oppress another people. War crime after War crime goes unpunished, it is sick and twisted to paint Israel as a victim, it is not. Every nation under foreign occupation has the RIGHT to defend itself, since when is the occupier the victim?

Well here is a little history lesson for all of us about how Israel was made. I am attaching a link in this post, which does co-incide with history as I have checked a number of sources.

The arabs did let Jews come and live with them, but the mistake they made was that they sold there land, and as more and more land was bought this began a conflict.

The links are below:

http://www.motl.org/resource/curric...rriculum_13.htm

http://www.stateofisrael.com/arab-israel/priortostate/

http://www.stateofisrael.com/arab-israel/worldwarii/

From what I have read, it reminds me how the western countries today cry about immigration, and how immigrants are taking over the country, this is what the arab thinking was when the jews started to flood into palastine in world war II.

These are from Jewish websites, and seems to me the jews conducted a lot of terrorist activities of there own during that time. Sound very similar to organisations such as hamas and hizbullah.

Very intresting articles.

Also you are right kerry, library always good option, but even on internet you find a lot of good information. The best way of finding it is comparing articles from both sides. I always do as I would'nt just take anyones word for it.

Israel remain the victims no matter what? You know the entire Arab world was silent when Saddam Hussein was gassing Iranians and killing his people by the millions. Where was this moral indignant then?

Facts are these. Hezbollah has been setting up for years to attack Israel. They’ve shipped arms into Lebanon at will with no reprisal or efforts to curtail it. They vote members of this armed militancy into their governments. They’ve been shooting rockets into Israel for the last 6yrs.

No reasonably being that knows the history of that territory could honestly believe this is about Palestinians. Again, Israel is blamed for their incursion into Lebanon in 82 without even a mention of what let to the incursion in the first place. Furthermore I find it funny how so many want Israel to “play by the rule book” while Hamas and Hezbollah do nothing but target civilians with their violence.

So where are the Arab demonstrations around the globe? We saw it when the US went into Afghanistan after 9/11. Maybe they too see this is a mess of Iran & Syria’s creation and I dare to say if it were your towns coming under violence on a perpetual basis, I’m sure you wouldn’t be pulling out the rule book while they’re blowing up your children.

They bomb Israel and when Israel responds they are the war criminals. And you say you’re tired Ireland? Maybe you should try laying the blame for this mess squarely where it belongs, Hezbollah, they failed the Lebanese. Is it disproportionate? Maybe but maybe you should think about that when you put them in charge of your government.

Raven, there are some things not present in your references. Like the fact that Arabs attacked Jews in the early and latte 20’s killing hundreds of them. This is the first recorded violence between these two people. It’s been going on ever since.

Another thing that isn’t present is that Arab immigration to Palestine was much