a little help needed please

Israel & Palestine Forum

Hi all... I am studying the Israel Palestine History when I came upon this site and see many people with strong views and wondered if some would care to give their opinions on the merits of the various peace deals in the region between Camp David Agreement and the Oslo Peace Accord. These include Madrid Conference, Cairo Agreement and others.

I have to assess the attempts at peace making and I am not quite there. Would appreciate comments.

Thanks

It's simply littlefat. I think the Arab League sumed it up today when they said that the Middle East Peace initiative is dead. To be honest, it was just a pipe dream. There are too many Islamic militants in the region running amuck for any type of peace to ever take root in that region.

Unfortunately, it will all have to boil over and in the end and no matter what these militants do to provoke incidents such as we see today, Muslims will always blame Israel for it.

oneofpease you said Muslims will always blame Israel for it.
just give me one reason why Israel is killing people in Lebanon? Civilians are being killed by the dozens for what? Read history and try to find the answers, once you do so then you will also blame Israel for that.

Some people have been blaming the Lebanese government for not dealing with Hizbollah and it's a fair point until you look and realise that the Lebanese can't take down HIzbollah they have tried in the past but they don't have the money or the troops to do it. the other factor is location, Hizbollah militants were traditionally based in the south of Lebanon and Hizbollah was more popular in the south than the government so when the Lebanese tried to deal with it they either met a wall of silence or hostility.

Speaking of the location if the south is the still the Hizbollah stronghold it has been for the pastv 20 - 30 years why doesn't Israel just attack the south?

littlefat,

In response to your original post....

The PLO has had numerous chances at Camp David and Oslo to achieve many many concessions that Israel was able to give up. However, Arafat and the cronies would stop at nothing until Israel was pushed into the sea.

Israel has had numerous conflagarations where they in turn give up more land. And Israel's enemies will NOT accept any peace agreements. During every war, '48, '67, '72 Israel gained more land, however, in turn they have given up more land for peace, more land for terror. Surrounded by enemies on all sides, it's a blatant miracle that Israel is the only real democracy in the Middle East and that irregardless of wars against her, she is still standing.

This is a war with big objectives, way beyond something simple like acquiring territory. For the forces opposing Israel, it seems like the objective is not necessarily to overcome Israel on a one-to-one basis and drive them into the sea. It seems like their objective is to simply make the conflict as large as possible regardless of who wins per se. The larger the conflict, the more the world loses, and the more they win in some kind of non-world perspective. Even if they lose, they win in their minds. It is as if the people of Iran, collectively, are acting out the role of a single suicide bomber.

As this Iranian nuclear crisis has ramped up over the last few months, they fanned the flames by stating that they intend to destroy Israel. I know there is some kind of prophecy that a world annihilation will usher in a salvation in the Islamic faith. I don’t know the details of this, but I have heard that there is a concern that the Iranian leaders may be motivated to speed up the eventuality by starting a world conflict.

If so, they would not care whether they won or lost the battle. They would win in a larger perspective just by setting the world on fire, including themselves. If that is so, the threat to drive Israel into the sea, as intolerant as it is, would be just a pretext for something far more sinister.

Writer, you make some valid points however I think that you aren’t exactly on target when it comes to the hatred of Israel in the region.

Jews know to stay out of countries they know are hostile to them. This is a lesson Americans have yet to learn. There is absolutely nothing and I mean nothing that those Islamic militants hate more than Israel. America is a close second and that’s because of our unwavering support for, you guessed it, Israel.

The fact that there are other ethnic groups being mistreated, although a fair assessment is a bit beyond the scope here. Israel is fighting for their existence. The Tutsis are no longer doing this.

Lodgebo, Hezbollah’s infrastructure reaches far beyond the southern borders of Lebanon. I do feel for the civilians caught in the middle but look at history for moment. Despite Bush’s incompetence and miscalculations (and lies) there are two regimes that are no longer in business as a result of Islamic extremists. Sudan had the good sense and foresight to understand that they needed to get OBL out of their country. Every day they look at Afghanistan, I’m sure they’re wiping their brows.

When I look at history, I can understand the plight of some extremists groups such as the IRA. Islamic militancy has no reasoning except their inability to bring themselves out of the stone ages and to spread their ideologies of Islam throughout the M.E. through tyranny, even of their own. Furthermore, their proclamation of Israel’s injustices to the Palestinians is a farce. It’s just that they hate the Israelis more that they care less about the Palestinians.

Well actually waging the war on the south would accomplish a lot more than bombing certain strategic and populated areas all over the country.

Firstly not all but a majority of Hizbollah fighters are in the south so if you attack the south you mqahy kill 10, 20, 30 fighetrs if you attack the cities you may kill 1, 2 or 3 fighters you attack state owned infrastructure you probably kill 0. So take out the majority and move on to the minority.

Secondly what part of Lebanon do you think these rockets are being launched from the North? the are obvioulsy coming from the south as they have a limited range I would also be willing to bet that a large amount of rockets and other weapons and ammo are in the south so Hizbollah can get to them quick, bombing the whole country will not stop Hizbollah taking pot shots at Haifa, bombing the south and taking out these positions will.

Israel will eventually capitualate and release Lebanese and Palastinian prisoners, but first they need to show some muscle to prove they can't be pushed around by a military much weaker country.

Problem with the Israelis show of strength is that this is exactly what Hezbollah expected and they have obviously been planning for just such a strategy, which could explain why Israel have been bombing cities all over the place and hardly touching Hezbollah. Hezbollah also have better technology than the Israelis expected, and have been firing further into Israel than the Israelis expected.

Ultimately it stops when Bush calls a halt but so far he's happy to see Lebanon destroyed, which is pretty stupid really, seeing as it's hardly good news for the democratic government there, although great news for the more radical elements.

It seems that all roads lead to Bush.

How quickly do Arab and Persian nations put the blame on Israel.
Especially when these nations like Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia have displaced the so called "Palestinians" to be used as an excuse for the destruction of Israel.

The surrounding Arab countries have done greater damage to these displaced Arabs by using them as a buffer between Israel and the surrounding nations. These nations do greater harm to their own Arab brothers than Israel would ever dream to do.

The situation is worsening when Egypt calls for nukes.

Comparing Israel to Hezbollah is a bit far fetched but I can see your point. However the US, not Bush has been the support for Israel. Bush is just following suit.

That nut job in Iran is going to bring the M.E. to look like Lebanon before it's over and in the end, Arabs will once again methodically blame Israel for it all.

I just hope the economy does not consume away.

Suppose the whole world spoke with one voice and told Israel they must practice restraint and cease fire immediately, and Israel did not comply. What would happen then?

well the idea that the US would join that one voice is frankly laughable as the US has never condemmed Israel look at the number of UN resolutions condemming Israeli actions in the 90's and look at which country vetoed every single one of those resolutions.

However the fact is that the current course of action is failing and they need to step back and go to plan B.

Obviously not all Arabs are 'brainless lunatics'. The Islamic extremists are portrayed in a negative light however, mostly through their actions. It's easy for the western world to lift their collective noses at them but I'd say walk a mile in their shoes before anyone tries to judge them as a people.

-HECK!

Yeah Heck! Loving your enemies, trying to understand their madness and hatred...ok.

But once they come at you with missiles, knives, guns...what do you do?

I would like to know from all the Israeli haters from Europe and the USA...

What would happen if Al Qaeda moved offices to Canada, France, Ireland, or Mexico...nearby neighbours? What if these extremists started bombing the USA or England day in and day out.
Would you fight back or would you just take it in the shorts? Seriously, what would you expect your government to do?

I mean come on! Residents of the USA want National Reserves and a fence at the Mexico border to hold back folks from employment! I said, employment!

Heck not without respect for your position, heck (no pun intended) I agree with your points in other forums but this is something I disagree with entirely. Islamic militants are scourges of their communities. They are quick to resort to violence then complain of the results when they reap what they’ve sown.

This is about non acceptance more than any of these pretenses. Arabs make it absolutely clear that they want to obliterate Israel. This isn’t a result of the West Bank or Gaza, it’s not a result of Lebanon 82 or their miserable failings in 67. Pay attention to the guy in the black suit (Iran). Given this attitude, I could walk a light year in their shoes and if reason prevail, I wouldn’t understand none of it.

My basic point was that not all Arabs are 'brainless lunatics'.

I'm not saying we hold hands with the Islamic extremeists/terrorists/etc. and try to sing songs of happiness... but in a place where you learn how to fire a gun before you ride a bike, lumping not only all the extremists but the Arab world as a whole in some over-generalization only begets more ingnorance in the long run.

It's a different world over there.

-HECK!

oneofpeace,

Just to clarify...

"The men in the black suit" (Iran) are not Arabs, they are mostly Persian. They speak the language of Farsi, not Arabic. They are mainly Shi'ite Muslim.
Also, not all "Arabs" fit the mold of the Muslim extremists...there are Christian Arabs, there are also Persian Christians.

The President of Lebanon, for example, is Christian.

So, I wouldn't tend to lump all Arabs into the same mold.
These extremists come in many forms, but mainly those of the extreme Muslim religion.

I can just imagine what a juicy target a ship or plane full of evacuating Americans would be to Hezbollah.

Arab/Middle East culture is generally racist. Period. They don't like Israel because they are Jewish.

Is it that hard to imagine? America, until just a couple decades ago, was a very racist country.

The Arabic/Muslim world has not overcome their prejudices, and that is the problem.

So the US should ask Israel to for a cease fire. Israel should use some restraint. After years of failed diplomacy and attacks.

Meanwhile, you have Hezbollah leader, Nasrallah, yelling "We are ready for it -- war, war on every level" and thousands supporting him.

I don't see how Israel could have responded any differently then they already have. I don't see how their response isn't appropriate. I bet most of us would have a total different mindset if our neighboring countries.

>> I can just imagine what a juicy target a ship or plane full of evacuating Americans would be to Hezbollah.

I was just thinking of the same thing.... especially with how slow and the number of people that need evac.

Yes I think there could be some real surprises in store as this unfolds. Maybe Hezbollah will surprise the world with some of those non-existent WMDs.

Maybe Israel will retaliate with nuclear force, and Europe will be so outraged by the disproportionality that they will use nuclear force on Israel.

Dekka hit it on the head, it’s racism pure and simple. When I speak of the Arab/Muslim community I understand that they all aren’t in the same boat. However there is overwhelming support for them in that region, clearly among the same group that we speak of that aren’t extremists. In fact, you can find Muslim support for their actions against Israel here in the states.

If you allow them to take up and thrive in your country and allow them to act with impunity then you have to accept the consequences of their actions.

Nikita, when I speak of Arabs/Muslims in that region it’s all synonymous. I know there are differences in DNA but Muslim support worldwide for Islamic militancy is overwhelming. After 9/11 Muslims worldwide were celebrating in the streets. It shows the extreme indifference Dekka mentions above.


lol@non existent WMD's

E, I see you'll die believing the rhetoric of GW...

Lets not forget.....

Israelis have been waiting since the 7th century (Romans) to establish a homeland. They've survived centuries of "racism" and persecution from all sorts of groups... including Catholic church.

They are just as dedicated to protecting their new found homeland as those dedicated to destroy it. Exactly why Israel sees their response as approriate... those that don't live this history can only try to comprehend.

The original ideologies of Zionism were wrong and it’s also dead. The land they have now is nothing compared to what they wanted and how they wanted to achieve it.

For Christians their return to the homeland was prophetic. For the Arabs that lived there it was problematic. There were indigenous Arabs in that land after thousands of years that wasn’t originally considered however it was Jordan that got most of the land, in fact ¾ of it. Israel got the ¼ that was left and Arabs rejected it right up until present days.

<Post erased as nikiTa attempts to engage reasoning capabilities before posting.>

WHOEVER those who oppose Israel with meager attempts at war have to be plumb out of their minds and foolish enough to believe that they can succeed against Israel. I mean Israel saw this coming in Nov. 2005.

Israel is not at all blindsided...

I for one would not want to piss off the Israelis...don't know how anyone would even make an attempt....oh yeah, forgot...the anyone would mean those seized with hatred, those seized with lunacy.

I heard that Hezbollah is preventing civillians from fleeing south Lebanon. Why would they do that?

Well I think we now have to accept that we are beyond the point of these two groups finishing this on thier own so maybe we shouold send in NATO forces wether Israel and Hizbollah like it or not, obviously the forces will have to make peace and if that means that Israeli and Hizbollah forces are killed trying to prevent peace then too bad.

Why I don't get is why Hezbollah got into this mix in the first place. Just when Israel is mixing it up with Palestine, yet again, Hezbollah swoops up a few Israeli troops. Sure, they say it's because Israel has some Arab prisoners, but it can't be that easy. I know Syria and Iran back these dudes, but still, something is just not sitting right with me about this whole thing.

-HECK!

writer,
Your comments in post #48 are straight out of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Clue: The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are a hoax...repeat: a hoax.