The Snape Poll-don't look unless you have read HBP

Harry Potter polls Forum

What were Snape's motives? Who's side was he on?

Im not sure, i put he's on his own side, what ever works best for him. He is skilled at Occury (i think it is) and is using it against both sides

I think Snape is on Dumbledore's side. What if Dumbledore required an Unbreakable Vow from Snape when he joined the staff? He could have required him to vow that he would NEVER seek to kill Harry. That could be true.

exerlent thought Fuscia, that could be true ... What would happen if you do 2 Unbreakable vows that contradict?

Well the vow to Narcissa was to help Draco. Killing Dumbledore would not break a vow to not kill Harry.

I know that, it was a theroetical question

As I already stated in another thread, I think he is on his own side. He chooses the side that seems to help him the most and then manages to fool both of them thanks to his mastery of the dark arts as well as occlumency.

M.

If he was so selfish and self-serving, why would Snape bother making a vow risking his life just to save Malfoy? If he was looking out for only himself, why would he have taken up a possition to go up against Albus Dumbledore himself? Perhaps you could say he was looking to take the glory for his own, but if that were true, why wouldn't he have let Dumbledore die when he had the Horcrux ring? It just doesn't make sense to me that he would be on only his own side. I think Slughorn was more self-serving then Snape ever was.

I think he is either on one side or the other. Good or bad, he is a brilliant liar and minipulator.

But it even goes to say, that even in the bitter end Dumbledore seemed to believe in him. Was Dumbledore pleading with Snape to not kill him? Or was he pleading with him to save himself and kill him because it was what Snape needed to do? Maybe it was what Snape needed to hear even.

If you remember, Dumbledore even had this mentality with Harry, before taking them to Voldemort's cave. He made Harry promise to do whatever he said once they got there and that if Harry needed to leave him behind and save himself, to do so.

Dumbledore was a trusting man, but he was no fool. I think Dumbledore was used to giving orders to people, which others didn't like to take. Like sending Snape back as a D.E., or Lupin back to Greyback, or even making Harry go back to the Dursley's.

On the other hand I think Snape was good at taking those orders, doing what needed to be done (without flinching if need be), perhaps even damning himself in the end for the the good of everyone. How can Voldemort doubt him now?

On another note (I said this bit in the the Horcrux Thread): Why would Dumbledore put Snape in the DADA possition when he KNEW that Voldemort had cursed it. WHY knowing that Snape would eventually be booted out by the curse and leave Hogwarts? This is what I would really like to know. ANY IDEAS? I have not seen anyone else comment on this.

In a nutshell, I still believe Snape is good and only the words of J.K. will dissuade me otherwise. :P (Stubborn till the bitter end, I am. And besides... I love a good conspiracy theory!)

Fuscia, I would personally think that the two unbreakable vows that contradict each other would both stand, therefore, no matter what you do, you're dead.


I believe Snape is on his own side. He does seem to have loyalty to Voldemort, however he has his own visions of grandeur that you know have nothing to do with the Dark Lord.

I think if Slughorn had mentioned Snape as his finest student (from JKR's point of view), people would have guessed him as the Half Blood Prince, so she kept quiet. Though to be honest, I guessed it as soon as I saw it was written in a potions text book.

Ya, well, Severus was never gonna be head boy. He was a bit of a loser from what I could see. I would think the Head Boy would be someone the other kids look up to.

True. I would bet that even among the death eaters, he is not Mr. Cool either.

Still, that he killed Dumbledore, dont' get me started.

What the heck was Wormtail doing with Snape?

I suppose Wormtail was hanging out and staying away from Nagini so that he would not be eaten.

M.

I think that Snape is on the Order's side.There are many things that make me believe that Snape is loyal to the Order.


1.He is a very good mind reader.I think that Dumbledore opened his mind sending a messege to Snape pleading to kill.If Snape wouldn't have killed him,another Death Eater would have.
2.The Vow that he made.I think that the mission that Malfoy had was to kill Dumbledore,not to find a way into Hogwarts.Snape Vowed to help Draco in his mission.
3."Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!".What he meant by this,I think is that Harry should practice his mind blocking because The Dark Lord could never be defeated by Harry if he could read his every move like Snape did.
4.J.K.R. is a master in double truths.She would make you think one thing for 90% of the book and then you would see the opposite.It's too obvios that Snape kille Dumby,there must another truth.
(sorry fot the grammar,it's been a long time since i last wrote in english)

These are all very good points Nion.

I agree that if he hadn't, another D.E. would have finished the job for Draco and Snape. But I also have begun to wonder if the vow perhaps compelled Snape to finish what Draco wasn't "able" to as well. I think the key to understanding what really happened would be knowing what an Unbreakable Vow really does to someone who has agreed to take one.

Draco's task was to first find a way around Dumbledore's wards, and second was to kill him.

I also agree with you about the "keep you mouth shut and you mind closed" point. Harry, with all of his anger for Snape, couldn't even get one spell past his defenses. It's like Snape's last lesson to Harry, that this is what will happen if he faces Voldemort if he doesn't perfect these two things.

-----

Another thing I'd like to bring up is the second chapter of the book, Spinner's End. When Narcissa, Bella and Snape are talking to each other about the task, no one actually says anything specific about what Draco must accomplish. Except that no one has ever managed it before, and that according to Snape "If Draco succeeds, he will be honored above all others." But if Voldemort has set an impossible task, Snape probably realized an openning and was just guessing with that comment. Also we know that Snape says that Voldemort "intend for me to do it in the end, I think " if Draco failed. If Voldemort did indeed tell Snape of the plan, wouldn't he have already instructed him to take Draco's place if need be? It sounds more like some more crafty guess work to me.

Snape... he says he already knew of the plan from Voldemort, but the whole time he is talking the Narcissa, it's like he trying to gather information from her about it.

Go ahead and read the second chapter over. I'm telling you, the whole time he is talking to Bella and "Cissy" he is minipulating them and playing with their emotions. He takes his time gaining Bella's trust, and still yet bragging how he is closer to Voldemort than her, because of her misshap at the ministry in book 5.

When Snape agrees to take the vow, Bella is completely shocked, and going through with it has probably taken some susspision off Snape now.

The point is: I don't think Snape knew anything of the plan at all, which is why he hesitated on the last part of the vow. The only problem is that he would not know what he would making a vow for. He would be walking into it completely blind.

I think he read one of Bella or "Cissy"'s mind. He hesitated in the end because he knew that that ment he would proberly have to kill Dumbledore.

I think you're probably right about that one, there is a good chance he used Legilimency on Narcissa. I have more to think on now... hmm.

Can a person always tell if Legilimency is being used against them? Does anyone know?

I know Snape never tried to hide the fact that he was using it against harry, and Draco noticed when he tried to use it when they were talking in his office. Is it possible Narcissa maybe didn't notice him using it?

If you can't use it without someone knowing, then he wouldn't have used it to find out about the plan, risking his possition within the D.E., otherwise he would have used it.

I agree with Nion. When I read the part with Snape telling Harry that he had to learn to control his thoughts and close his mind, it was like a parting shot of information to him.

If Voldemort intended for Snape to do it in the end, then it was the final test of loyalty. Still, I can't help but think that Dumbledore knew he was right to trust Snape. Dumbledore came to Snape with the injured hand, and could have died, but Snape saved him. There was a chance to let him die, and then Voldemort would have honored him, yet he didn't let it happen. I think he stuck to his unbreakable vow only because Dumbledore wanted him too. I still think that Dumbledore made Snape make an unbreakable vow reguarding Harry when he came into the order.

I wonder if you can go against an Unbreakable Vow at all... What if Snape was compelled by the bond made by the vow to finish the task?

Ron said that you die if you don't fulfill the vow. You have a choice, do it or die.

Do you remember what chapter or page number that was on? I'd like to know how he worded that.

Chapter 16 on page 325+326

Brilliant! yes saving another Wizard's life creates a bond. James prevented Snape from coming across a transformed Lupin thus saving his life.
A debt so to speak, sooooo maybe the debt is that he can't kill James' son.

Well you break the vow, and it breaks you!

Dumbledore showed absolute trust in Snape, and I have to say, I have absolute trust in Dumbledore. Therefore, I have to assume that D was encouraging Snape to kill him, thus allowing Snape to remain in the trust of Voldemort and the DEs. Dumbledore sacrificed himself in order to spark some sort of feeling in Harry, just like the chain if events he described to Harry when he discussed how the prophecy comes true. Concurrently, Snape must play an important role in Harry's future. On a side note, won't Harry be able to talk to Dumbledore through the portrait in the headmaster's office?

Yes but a portrait doesnt have a mind of hisown, its been said about this sort of thing when Sirus died, and harry talked to nick, and he was told about the portraits

A portrait is an image of the wizard and it definitely has a mind of it's own. Dumbledore talked regularly to the portraits in his office. And Nick never talked about portraits, he only talked about ghosts. What are you talking about?

M.

i believe that it has been saids that portraits only say what the person would have said ... ok, i guess your right, i cant think what i was talkign about, but i dont think its the accual person talking

The portrait would have the personality of the person though. I think it would have some of their memories as well. Kind of like an echo.

So any knowledge D might have had could possibly be passed on through the portrait - just no new ideas?

We don't really know yet. Phineus Nigellus seems to know all about his time at Hogwarts. He knows about the family line and such, but we don't know the full limits of the portraits. They did talk with Dumbledore and were sworn to serve the headmaster. I for one think that the portrait Dumbledore will be able to pass on valueable tips to Harry. One wonders where else there will be portraits of such a famous wizard.

AND welcome to the forum Moses.

I've got a feeling the portrait will have the memory of the wizard up until the point the portrait was made... or the last time the portraitee enfused themselves onto the portrait.

It's just a theory, and is probably hogswash, but we'll see

I like the theory. I do wonder if a portrait will show up of him in Grimmauld Place. The Order could use some direction.

I'm sure Harry himself, when he moves into Grimmauld Place, will be sure to put a portrait up.

I hope he can get rid of Mrs Black though *chills*

I think they are stuck with her. I wonder if we will see Grimmauld place in the next book.

I say remove the wall her portrait is on... I'm sure Harry could make that place home when this is all over

I'm thinking Grimmauld Place will be the first place Harry goes when he turns 17. He'll be of age, the place is safe, and he can plan his "quest" from there.

but he couldn't bear to think of the place. That is the place where Sirius was so unhappy. I think it has to be the place to go. Like it or not, he will need the order to help him. They can gather information and run interference with the death eaters.

Agreed, also even if there isn't a portait of Dumbledore at the order, we do know for a fact that there is one of Phineus Nigellus. We also know that portraits can communicate with each other, and seeing as Dumbledore and Phineus are in the same office, it shouldn't be too hard to convey information. We have yet to see how much help Phineus will bring, JKR seemed to specifically bring him into conversations when Harry was in Dumbledore's office. He stood out a lot more than the other portraits, so I think he will have some role to play in the 7th book.

Im sure you will all agree that more than one painting of Dumbledore was made during his life ... like in the ministry maybe

Or the chocolate frogs playing cards ... he can go through all thouse ... maybe one of the deatheaters have them

"My Lord! I just found Dumbledore flipping me the birdie!!!"

M.

Dumbledore's portait turned up in the office almost amediatly, perhaps a house elf

We know that people in portraits can move around from frame to frame, and even from house to house if they have one in point A and point B, but can there be... say two portait Dumbledores in one frame when hopping over? Or is it only possible to have one portrait self, but multiple jumping frame points?

Im not sure, because that other painting (the black one that i cant remember the name of, headmaster) well his frame was empty most of the time, or so Harry noticed.

I used to think Snape was cool. I used to like the snide, bitter remarks he would make to Harry, how he provided a nice contrast to everyone else favoring Harry. Now I hate Snape. I hope Harry kills that bastard and that he makes him cry out for mercy just like Dumbledore did.

Hmm... it reminds me of chocolate frog cards actually. Do you think they work like portaits too? I wonder if dumbledore can communicate through one of those like a painting.

They can probably communicate between each other, but I don't think they have as much of the person they picture as portraits do. For example, I've never read of them talking.

Well when Dumbledore was kicked out of all those things for beleiving Harry that Voldemort was back and all, he said he was most glad that he was still aloud to be on the chocolate frogs cards ... or was that fan fiction that i read theres so much i get mixed up sometimes

No that was not fan fiction. Bill said that Dumbledore was happy as long as they had him on the chocolate frog cards.

M.

And that could turn out to be important !!!

I think the choclolate frog cards are like pictures. They just do one thing.

But like in paintings, the people in them don't hang around all the time. They go visiting into other chocolate frog cards I suppose.

When have the left the card?

When Harry got his first chocolate frog card in book one he asked Ron where Dumbledore went, because Dumledore had taken a stroll out of the frame.

Book 1, chapter 6, when Harry meets Ron for the first time on the train and gets his first chocolate frog card. He gets Dumbledore's card, turns it over to read the back and when he looks back Dumbledore is gone. Ron says "Well, you can't expect him to hang around all day..." and then "...he'll be back..."

You beat me to it, Pippin.

Ahh ok ... you cant expect me to remember back to the beginning of book 1

Why not? It is your duty to remember these things for future speculation!

I know ... It was how many years ago? ... although i have re-read the books many times ...

Oh please dont be too long till book 7 ... she says shes taking a year out to give her latest child "mommy time", which granted is a good excuse

Pfft! How selfish of her! Forget the kids, JKR! Finish the books so that we can be satisfied, then take care of your kids! Geez, that woman needs to sort out her priorites

I voted that he is on his own side, because I just don't know WHERE his loyalities lie at this point. With everything read, you can think that it's either side he's on, and working the other in disquise. Well, JKR wants us thinking just that... she wants us confused about where his loyalities are. And that's great... keeps us questioning, until the very end.

The thing is, why in ootp did Snape call the Order? You know, when Harry gave him that cryptic clue in Umbridges office, and he called the order to go to the Ministry. Why didn't he just prtend that he didn't have a clue what Harry was talking about and leave it. Dumbledore probably wouldn't have questioned it, and by calling the order a load of Death Eaters got stuck in Azkaban and Voldie was revealed to the Ministry and all of the wizarding world. It doesn't make much sense if he was working for Voldemort.

Buy thats all part of being a double agent

Snape's not neccesarrily a bad guy, working for Voldemort all along. He's also not neccesarrily a good guy, killing Dumbledore upon his own orders. I think that from what we've seen in that last scene of fight between Snape and Harry, and the way Snape went all, "DON'T CALL ME A COWARD!!!!", I'd think at the moment he's just very messed up. He has emotional issues, he's not just plotting things. I think his connection with Draco is too deep. Except being tied by the Unbreakable Vow, it could be that Snape is personally involved with Draco and his family too much somehow, and that doesn't permit him to think or act clearly.

Anyhow, his apparent treason was a huge shock for me. I mean, come on... It's Snape, no matter how nasty, he's always been around, for some reason Dumbledore always trusted him... There.Must.Be.More.To.It.

In the end, the DADA teacher spot is yet again empty at the end of the school year. Voldy's curse remains intact all-rite

It's going to be 2 - 2 1/2 years until book 7 is out.

NNNOOOOOO!!!!!!

Thats good, because by that time i would have finished my university course, and can apply for a job as an assitant for the 7th book

That would be a really tough job to get. I mean, an assistant to a book! Even if you got it, why would you want it? I bet it would always send you on crazy errands and you would never get to eat in the office for fear of spilling crumbs on your boss.

By that time I will have just gone to my university. I will be dirt poor and will have to read the book by glancing over shoulders of people in coffee shops. It will be a miserable existance

An assistant to the movie ... An assistant Editor or something

OMG, more than 2 years till book 7...?? I've never waited for a HP book so long... Read all the first 4 parts in 2001... How does it feel like anyway? How come you haven't gone mad??? OMG, by that time I'll be in the second year of college, with a bunch of exams over my head and as Pippin said, penniless... DOH! Do you think we should start like a fund so that we could buy the book when it's published, Pippin? I'm definitely starting it

You could start a site that raises money to get the book for HP fans that are in college.

I start full time work after i finish my degree

I think that would be a worthwhile cause!

The Penniless Harry Potter Fans Society. Please make a donation and help those in need.

Yes will someone think of the students ... striving are way though to get educated, penniless, and working are buts off ... And all we want to do is read Harry Potter.

I voted that he's on his own side. For every argument that can be made to show that Snape is on Voldemort's side, there's a counter-argument that shows he's on Dumbledore's side.

I started re-reading the series after I finished HBP and am spefically looking for clues to tell me what side Snape is on. So far, I haven't found anything that definitely points to Snape's betrayal of Dumbledore (minus that who Avada Kedavra thing, which we don't even know if that was a betrayal yet or not), so I'm going to be remaining loyal to Snape until JKR has proven me either wrong or right.

Guess that you and me are on the same side, Blue

Dumbledore was the most intelligent wizard by far. He knew how to read people. He was not fooled easily. I think the think that convinced me that Snape is loyal was the scene where Lupin is talking to Harry and they discuss how much Snape hated James, and that Snape told Voldemort of the prophesy. I don't think that he could come crying to Dumbledore and have him believe it when he said he was remorseful without something else happening. Dumbledore would never tell anyone, but I honestly believe that Dumbledore had Snape make an unbreakable vow regarding Harry.

So. The Snape's-not-a-traitor scenario. If Dumbledore wasn't begging Snape to spare his life, what was he begging him for? His plead did sound real, nevermind if it was a plead for life or something else. I think it might have been Dumbledore's last message for Snape to stick to the good side. To protect Harry maybe. But that Snape revealing as a Bad Guy episode happened far too quickly and it wasn't explained as deeply as JKR usually describes such revelations. I just don't believe that Snape's simply been bad throughout the whole series. That's sooo not in HP style. Bad guys are always apparently nice.

I agree Dumbledore used the Unbreakable Vow to prevent Snape from hurting Harry in any way. It would explain why Dumbledore believed him so much. And that would make such an interesting topic for the 7th book: Snape stuck in between two Unbreakable Vows, Harry's and Draco's... "Will he make it through alive??" I'd love to read about that.

The Unbreakable vow for draco has been forfilled, and im not sure if the voe stays when one party dies. So any that DUkbledore may have made doesnt nessiserily count now, like to death do us part type thing.

But it's still hard to believe Dumbledore didn't see any of it coming. He always saw EVERYthing coming... Oh well. This time, for a change, Harry's hunch and not Dumbledore's wisdom turned out to be right... apparently.

But Dubledore beleived Harry all along. He could have have perpared himself

No one saw the Barty Crouch Jr. as Mad-Eye thing coming. But with Snape there were clues over the years that could have led Dumbledore to believe that Snape had betrayed him and gone back to Voldemort's side, but he still trusted Snape. Now true, Dumbledore admits to Harry that he has made a few mistakes in the past and they seem to be much bigger than most and have much larger consequences, but I would think that Dumbledore would have known, despite Snape being a great Occlumens, that Snape was betraying him, if in fact that's what Snape was doing.

I was just pointing out to Maja that Dumbledore never saw everything coming.

I think Dumbledore may have had another reason to trust Snape, but then again, the book mentions Dumbledore's habit of seeing the best in people so he may have been blinded by that.

M.

Very possible. But I'd like to think that a man of Dumbledore's wisdom and experience, not to mention how well he knew Snape, that he really did have a good reason to trust Snape. And if Snape really was just playing the part, then kudos to him, because he not only had Dumbledore fooled, but myself as well.

I agree. I know it's been said before, but I don't think Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to spare his life. That just doesn't sound like Dumbledore, and besides, it all happened way too quickly. I feel like that scene would've gone a little slower if Snape were really suddenly revealing to Dumbledore that he's a death eater.
So what was Dumbledore pleading for? I don't know: for Snape to kill him and help Malfoy? I'm not sure. But I feel like Harry being right about Snape all along is too obvious. I feel like JK is too clever for that.

Maja, I also think that Snape will redeem himself in some way at the end of the series. I also like to see the good.

I hope so. If he does I can let him back into my top 4 favorite characters. I haven't replaced him yet, just in case.

Ah, what the heck, the man is still cool, even if I hate him now

I found another thing that supports the idea that Snape had turned treacherous to Dumbledore and the Order. In Spinner's End, Snape mentions that it was his information that led to the capture and murder of Emmeline Vance. If you remember, Emmeline Vance was a member of the Order and she was also part of Harry's guard in book 5 when the Order came to fetch him from Dursley's house.

I also had another thought. I think that Dumbledore suspected Snape had become treacherous but did not have any proof so he couldn't just ask him to leave the Order. Since Dumbledore also knew that the DADA position was actually cursed by Voldemort, I think Dumbledore gave Snape the job hoping Snape would be rid of by the end of the year. However I doubt Dumbledore realized that it would be his own murder by Snape that would cause him to leave.

M.

Snape also led Bellatrix to believe that he had a hand in Sirius's death too. I wonder if he was taking credit for something he really didn't have a big hand in-again!

The DADA thing is sticky. Slughorn was a potions master. Snape would happily take the DADA job, and if Snape were not teaching the Potions class, Harry could continue his studies to become an auror one day.

I don't know, I still think it was Snape who helped murder Emmeline Vance. But even you must agree, Dumbledore letting Snape teach DADA knowing perfectly well that he would be gone after an year, more so because Snape was his supposedly most valuable spy, is certainly fishy. Dumbledore had kept Snape from teaching DADA for so many years, why give him the job now? I think Dumbledore did realise that Snape had turned against him.

Snape did seem to have been loyal to Dumbledore (perhaps out of necessity), and he did inform him in book 4 about the dark mark on his arm becoming stronger, and he also did his part in trying to convince Fudge that Voldemort was back (he showed Fudge his dark mark). But I think that sometime during book 5, he subtly turned against Dumbledore.

M.

p.s. I don't know how much value Dumbledore placed on Harry becoming an auror vs. keeping his spy on Voldemort.

With JKR you just never know. I will bet we don't know until the last part of book 7.

Exactly... we won't find out anything, answer wise, regarding Snape, until the very end. Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh... the agony of waiting for book 7. We must have it... now!!

If Dumbeldore did know that Snape had turned against him, why even bother keeping him at the school? And why give him a job where he would be around the dark arts even moreso? It jsut doesn't make sense to me that Dumbledore would do those things if he knew that Snape had returned to Voldemort's side.

I'm not saying that it isn't a possibility. I mean who knows why Dumbeldore did the things he did (having to write in the past tense for Dumbledore is so difficult). But to me, it just ins't logical.

I have a question for everone who thinks that Dumbledore bound Snape with an Unbreakable Vow. It seems like you need 3 people for an Unbreakable Vow: the two people maing the vow and one Bonder. Who do you think could have been a Bonder for Dumbledore and Snape?

Moody or Albertforth Dumbledore.

Just curious: where is alberforth Dumbledore? Do any of the books ever say where he is or what he does?

Nope. Moody says that the only time he met him was for the photo of the order. I do think that he is the bartender at the Hog's Head.