EU Constitution: Up or down vote?

Post-9/11 Era Forum

Europists:

How ya gonna vote on the EU constitution?

Yes or No
Why or Why not

Do you like globalization free trade? Do you hate it?
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Well considering that the French might vote no then there is no point in anyone else voting because it cannot be ratified unless all 25 states approve it, nor the French government say that they will ratify it evn if the no vote comes through, but the dutch leaders may not be so brave, so the I may not vote but if I do I will definitly vote no.

Here is why. if the constitution is passed then evry other europen law traety that has been passed is scrapped and there are to many important ones (historically i.e treaty of Rome and moral point of view i.e. 48 hour week working limits) to lose. Second I would prefer to be ruled by Holyrood and Westminster in terms of the majority of important descions I do not want Brussels overuling my governments. Third I do not our foreign office to be scrapped and the Uk having to have the same foreign policy as 25 other countries that is just stupid. fourth The Eu constitution wil no doubt at some point require a EU military wing, an RRU has already been discussed but this will put us on a collison coures with NATO an organsiation which all 25 membners have either joined or will join. Fifth The ruels of the constitution can be changed at any time if those in power choose to do so, in effect you can vote for one constitution and get an entirely diffrent one. and finally this constitution is more of a right winf documwnt and people in europe tend to be more left wing

The thing is that Europe does do a lot of good for it's members I know that people in the US do not belive it and would like it to disappear and i am not going to waste my time trying to convince you other wise. Bottom line is that I think the EU is a goods idea for it's members but the constitution is abridge to far.

The "no" is very likely to pass in France next Sunday when balloting close. There are many factors to explain this:

- average French people feel looked down at by an elite enjoining them to vote yes

- lots of companies relocate abruptly their activity in neighboring countries with lower salaries costs. It appears that lots of these countries are eastern european ones recently integrated in the EU

- the constitution emphasizes the role of the market where people would like social rights to be more promoted

As a result lots of people don't consider this constitution as a positive achievement and a guarantee for a better life, since it does not answer to their fears and preoccupations.

If I had to bet I would bet for "no" in France next Sunday.

Thanks JY for your assessment.

It's not very democratic if the Constitution maintains that it can be changed at any time by those in power without a vote from the people, is it?
From what you have listed, I would vote "NO" as well. But, then again, I would have voted against the EU in the first place, or would have moved to Norway or Switzerland.

Which brings me to this question.

If this is the constitution and it sounds extremely one sided as having the rule of the elite over the masses, what is it about the EU as a body that is favorable for Europe? Notwithstanding the propaganda given at its outset like:

1) Nationalistic tendancies vanished as well as the militancy that goes along with it.
2) Unified economy = prosperity.
3) Easy to spend money without having to convert currency.
4) Such benefits as travel without individual country passports and the ability to work in various countries without having to fill out different tax paperwork...easy to work in different countries without the hassle of time and paperwork.
5) I am sure there were more.

That's a valuable point.

Lots of people here view Europe as a giant administration full of transnational civil servants issuing (dictating ?) rules and decrees (most of the ones falling down on us in fact - I guess something like 70 % of them all but this is to be checked).

Constitution is presented by the "yes" supports as the mean to get over this inflating administration, by giving a legal frame to this machine. They rule down former treaties as undemocratic, insufficient, and so on.
All right then ... but these treaties to be scrapped have been voted by the very same people who are running them down now to explain us that we should vote yes. Talk about a contradiction and hypocrisy.
Lots of people see clear through this and that's why they feel a "trap" designed by an elite willing to decide for them.
Being given by Chirac the opportunity to express a choice, they take advantage of it. Most other countries don't resort to referendum, letting deputies and senators endorsing the constitution on behalf of the people.
That's the reason why the french vote is going to be observed and commented so much.

Whatever - even though the "yes" option is not the marvellous solution some people would like citizens to believe, it has the merit to attempt to give a frame to institutional acts, rules, decrees since there is none today. Which is the principle of democracy.
I think that modern Europe is and will be for decades in the path of an integration and consolidation movement - something never seen before elsewhere, except maybe in the US 200 years ago.

Lodgebo issued an opinion which I believe is the one of many a citizen from Great Britain. Freedom and national prevalence is preferred to federalism. To the contrary, the Germans are favorable to an european federalism, since that's the basis of their own political system.

As you see the Europeans have still to walk together through some distance before a credible unity is operational (assuming this ever happens).

I am a lucid individual but don't appreciate that a plan devised by others is attempted to be forced on me. Hence the temptation for the "no" vote. But I think that I will vote yes to the constitution, even if its content may be questionable, because it opens doors to a common future that we will have to face together anyway. Well ... it is better to be as unified as possible to do it.

Lodgebo,

Sorry, I didn't look at the names when I gave my last post, and I was commenting on your ideas mixed with Jy French's because I thought he wrote both replies.
I would have to say, your assessment sounds along the lines which I would agree with if I were living in Europe. But then again, I am leery of the EU as well, as you noted you thought an outsider might be. Just consider the possibility that just as you and others from Europe can see some glitches and hypocrisies in US foreign policy, there may be the possibility that an outsider from the US may see the same in the EU. Just a thought.

JY_French,

It sounds as though you may favor the globalist/free trade aspect of the EU?
After a Unified Europe (which may include Turkey and Russia eventually), A United States of North America, and the current non globalized countries in the Middle East, S America, and Africa being made to be global through either war or other pressures....there is only China, Korea and Japan to worry about. And then what? We are free to merge these units into World Government. What a plan, heh?

I find it interesting that in your first post you say you were going to vote NO, but in the second you changed your mind to say you would vote YES. What changed your mind?

In my first post I was trying to explain why a majority (according to the polls) intended to vote NO (it was not necessary how I see those things myself - just a few feelings about tle local atmosphere). I did not change my mind.

I am not favoring the globalist aspect of the EU. In fact, I would rather be opposed to it, for reasons close to those you may explain yourself regarding the US (thus accounting for your lucid statements about the Bush regime).

To be frank I am not that enthusiast about this constitution. Emotionally speaking, I would spontaneously vote NO, as Lodgebo would do.

Oh and I am not someone resigned to my fate. I would stand up and fight for my rights - I believe this is the kind of behaviour you would have too.

But now - as a citizen I have to lucidly and coldly ponderate the stakes. What I know is that it is preferable to be inside a system if you want it to change in a direction that better suits your view.

Being outside of it leaves no room to pressure it. 25 countries are members of the EU, and, even if France is not the less significant of them, Europe does not necessary needs France everytime to walk his way. Knowing that "walking his way" means in my mind voting rules, laws, decrees, promoting economical politics that directly or undirectly, but always significantly, impact our daily lives here. You can't imagine how much this is already the case.

I and other citizens did not make this situation what it is - this integration movement has very often been a concerted one organized by an elite.
Now, rather than to be subjected to others' decisions, with little to none possibility to influence them, I prefer to be an actor and, if necessary, fight from the inside. And cooperation make things work - that's a basic principle of management.

So I make the calculation, as others in France do, that this constitution, at least, gives a frame to an institution that has passed laws without a one so far, while it gives to the citizens possibilities to directly interact with the way this enormous machine is managing the continent.

Don't confuse resignation and calculation. I'm a fighter. Even if I may be wrong.

Just a remark - do you imagine California becoming a separatit state outside of the Union ? Well the situation is different here but the general idea is that.

Again: I don't pretend to be right. I am asking myself a lot of questions, and I am not sure to have all the answers.

SWTT I agree that the EU is not perfect in fact far from it on some issues. But I feel that the diffrence between me and some people like Curly Joe is that I am happy to debate the issues about the EU with out name calling and anti european chant

Like I stated ealrier I do not bleive that this constitution will get past the UK ( If it makes it that far in the first place) mainly because unlike a few of the big EU countries our economy is strong, we have unemployment under 1 million, we have very good international realtions with the majority of countries, we have a lot of power in the EU, UN, and NATO and we also have something that no other country in Europe has and that is three devolved governments ( Wales, Scotland and Ireland) what will happen to all of these thiings if we agree to the constitution.

It is just like the Euro the UK has no need to join the Euro and probably never will.

Thank you JY_French and Lodgebo for your views.

I merely wanted a dialogue about this and did not plan for heated discussion and I am not surprised that you two are without slinging arrows....you are able to discuss matters without going over the top. And I appreciate that.

JY you said: "I and other citizens did not make this situation what it is - this integration movement has very often been a concerted one organized by an elite."

This is a fact. When I was involved with such an elite in the 1980's they planned for the EU to come to power in 1992 and world economic government for 1995. As you can see, they are behind schedule. This means that there are things they did not count on to go against them....this means ultimately they are not in control. Irregardless of their "plans" they have to change and maneuver these plans based on unforeseen events out of their control....like public opinion of the masses, for example.

The fact of the matter remains that the USA is indeed the toughest nut they have to crack for their plans to come to fruition. Here we have had an independent minded people who truly believe we have freedoms the rest of the world do not have. Whether that be the case or not, it is this mindset that needs to be broken and harnessed into a form of blind nationalism for a cause they do not understand, nor do they see the future ramifications.

It is admirable that you want to change from within JY. I am hoping that once you are within, any temptations that may come your way to compromise your strong values will not dissuade you from your ideals today.
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Lodgebo: I am glad to see the continued resistance of the UK. I am hoping that drastic measures will not be taken against your country, or any other nation who is resistant to the swagger and spell that is behind the European Union.
It is unfortunate that in the USA with 9-11, that such a drastic measure was made to sway independent freedom loving Americans into circumstances toward a similar goal that is the European Union.
At least so far, the European Union has come to power with little or no bloodshed. Continued efforts for world economic government in a militaristic vein has been given to the USA to carry out....and this troubles me.

according to the polls (to be confirmed by the official figures) the constitutional treaty has been rejected by 55 % of the French voters.
Frankly, that's not a surprise - I was anticipating this result. Is it a good or bad thing ? I don't know.
Politically that's an earthquake in France, comparable in intensity to the results of the first round of the presidential elections 3 years ago, where the extreme right reached the second rank and was granted access to the second round.

Our political class hasn't understood yet the deep unease within the population.

Thanks for the update JY_French...this news impacts the world in more ways than we can talk about online.

Well some people are saying that the constitution is now dead in the water whereas others are saying that there is still hope. what everyone agrees on is that the EU will survive regardless. From what I can work out there are 3 options for Europe 1. is that the constitution will be ratified regardless of what the people think, that is a no starter because there is no way that 25 democratic countries will do a very undemocratic thing at the same time.
2. Continue with the vote and if the majority vote yes that lobby the countries that voted no to attempt to change thier minds this is a possibility as some countries are continuing with the referendum and the fcat that France's vote was not so much anti Europe as anti Chirac
3. Modify the constitution or Nice treaty to make it more appelable to everyone. this is the common sense idea but the problem is that how do you appease 35 diffrent countries whose population is more that the US and Russia? it is going to be to hard, the French say that the constitution is to British and the British will reject it because it is affects there British laws, economy etc.
Something will have to be done though because if you ask people in europe they do bleive that the EU does a good job it brings in better living standards and offers protection for the smaller states along with the US it is fighting terror and helping in the Iran situation, it looks after the intrests of some smaller African states ( at the request of the UK and France for obvious reasons) and has gurenteed jobs for a lot of people. So what do you do you cant force it through and the majotiy will not change thier minds on the constitution.

Lodgebo, as you point out, the french vote is to be explained by several factors, and one of them is the dissatisfaction of the voters with the Chirac government. Chirac and his Premier have an appreciation percentage at an all-time low. They have already beem given a slap in the face by the electorate in a recent past, at the occasion of domestic elections, and the result is that this political class remains blind and deaf at the preocuupations of the people.
All the institutions representatives have praised the people to vote yes. Those among the moderates who did the opposite (of course the representatives of extremist parties, right or left, were opposed but this was no surprise) were exceptions.
The treaty has been rejected partly because of that. A serious and increasing gap between the elite and the people.
Now you have all those companies relocations, with stories of people here being offered to keep their job at the condition to relocate in Armenia for 10 % of their former salaries. This is perceived with good reasons as provokations.
In such a context, where the unemployment rate is above 10 %, who could claim to be surprised by the result ? Definitely no sensible observant commentator.
The EU will survive but this referendum output is a serious dent in the integration process.

It's exceedingly satisfying to witness Chirac getting walloped by his own electorate. A moment to be relished indeed—and a moment that calls for the chorus line…

How long until he is voted out of office at this point? No way he lasts through the next election, good thing too!

Chirac is only motivated by his own political survival. He will do all what is possible to last through the next election, and will probably even try to be reelected. This kind of politician has been on stage for more than 40 years - they are addicted to politics.
His electorate is thin - only 18 % of the valid votes in the last presidential elections, where something like 20 other candidates were running for the job.
Today more than two thirds of the people are dissatisfied with him and his clique. We would be better off with him out of office.

Chirac is like the European poster boy for the EU, this must seem as a huge blow to him.

You would be surprised to hear his anti-EU stance a couple of decades ago. He makes up his mind as he sees it fit his agenda. Politician.
This is an enormous slap in his face. He is sustainably weakened, and I think that his tenure won't be the most remarkable of all the presidents' ones of this country. Far from that.

Its said that spain will vote no as well ... dont think this constitution will go far, and im sure it will be put on Tony blairs head when Britain is the host of Eruope in a few months ... espetially by the Germans, even though we (the British) lobied harder for this constitution in the first place ... theres jusdice for ya.

Well the yes camp got hammered in Holland 60%+ said no. the fcat is that the people do not want it, there was a Dutch socailst MP on television and sahe said that the people are saying no because Brussles dicatates what we ( Europeans)have to do and we get no say in it, I think that is true to but what do other Europeans think?

I think that Spain has already voted and said yes but I could be wrong on that.

As for tony Blair he is always looking for his place in history for do something amazing, well he gets his chance in trying to sort this mess out.

The Euro is taking a nosedive just in time for my Greece trip.

Yep that is why the UK continues to stay our of it because our currency and economy is way to strong to risk on the euro.

Enjoy your trip to Greece Joe, are you off to the mainland or one of the islands?

Im going to Greece in July, Going to nacos (one of the islands)

i hope the Euro (€) stays down

You mean Naxos.

Please stop polluting this thread with talk of Greece and nachos. Thank you.

There is no Greece, only the EU.

Can I just say that I am going to Kos on Saturday.

As for the EU I have herad that the euro has gone up ever so slightly due in part to what has happend in Frnace and the Netherlands, not sure why just yet I will try and find out.

The only grease is on Chirac's palms.

Must be all those French fries they are pretty greasy