Tell me now that she is "gone"...

Euthanasia/Right to Die Forum

Is this a fluke? She responds to music.

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_music.rm

She opens her eyes on command (well, with a little delay).

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Big_Eyes.rm

She recognizes her mother, and when asked a question, she TRIES TO SPEAK!!!!

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/hows_that_cold.rm

She is easily anoyed.

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/Terri_Swab.rm


There are more.

Snippets of videos are not proof. If you wait long enough, you get the response. The vast majority of the doctors who have ACTUALLY examined Terri, and I am not talking about the ones that only look at video, have concluded that she is in a vegetative state. Laughter, eye movement, groaning are all common for people in this condition.

OPEN YOUR FREAKING EYES PEOPLE!!!!

We could say the same to you. None of us has watched the entire 4 hours of video. We should trust the respected people in the medical community who have actually examined her, unlike the neurologist who is a pro-lifer and has not, and conclude that they know what they are doing. People are seeing what they want to see. Don't you think that if you are in her face for HOURS and are trying to get a response, eventually she will have a spontaneous reflex that will appear to be one? I do.

thank you.

To those that believe she is still there, if you know any nurses or doctors, please do ask them what people in PVS act like. My sister is a nurse who has worked in nursing homes with patients with PSV. She said that you do see many of these responses.

The parents of Terri, in direct violation of a court order, sent snippets of videos to several TV stations to gain the support of the nation. Although I applaud their efforts, the tape is disingenuous.

They asked Terri scores of times to blink her eyes and when she does, they edit that part of the session and send it out to the nation claiming she’s responsive.

This is a sensitive matter. Looking at those videos will make one think however we are not privied to all the information at hand. I simply do not believe that all the courts and judges who’ve heard this case are merely dismissing evidence that she’s still within the limits of today's medicine.

Exactly oneofpeace!

On another thread, I stated that they sent these video's out hoping that there would be enough naive people to believe these tiny snippets without question....and it seems to have worked to some extent.

Fortunately there are more people out there who look at the whole picture in a more realistic manner and realize that all the doctors except for those right to lifer doctors (as the one Jeb Bush put forth) and the parents' doctors all stated that she is in a PVS. Even the court doctors who are not biased saw it that way as well.

She isnt gonna get better...what is it that people dont understand about that?

Sayzak,
She is gone.

They had on Anderson Cooper 360 the court appointed advocate for Terri. He talked about all the hours he spent in her room trying to get any type of response from her. Never got one. He said that he spent time with her parents in there as well as Michael. He said her parents were lovely people. Michael was not warm and fuzzy, but he really loves Terri and did a hell of a job looking after her. No bed sores in 15 years. That alone is pretty incredible given her condition. The transcripts are not up for the show yet. I'll try to find them tomorrow.

The only naive people are the ones who would say that the evil "Christian" right have an agenda to determine what life is.

Well, I have news for you.
The flip side of this is...and the real problem for us all...is that the government can now decide when our lives should end.

Welcome to the 3rd Reich people.
Enjoy the ride...however long that may last.

But my living will?
My living will!!!!!

The same sheisty lawyers who drew up and signed the will?
Good luck. The same sheisty lawyers and judges will be assigned to your case when you're lying there unable to speak for yourself. They may decide to let you rot in your bed for 50 years as long as they're making money off you in court.

And the same people you think love you now... they may just take your living will from your file cabinet or safety deposit box and burn it.

It's a little more complicated than that. Medical science has come quite far. But there are many cases where leading medical professionals are even stumped. Is this one of those cases... well, how many more years does this person have to be hooked up to a machine until we find out?

-HECK!

That argument is a fallacy.

Is the feeding tube not a machine? Is someone crumbling crackers and funneling them into a tube... nope.

-HECK!

Ever had an IV?
An IV with potassium (KCl) or glucose?

If I said yes, would it make a difference?

-HECK!

Terri can't speak a word of english. She can't tell you that she's hungry. Does that mean she isn't hungry?

Ponder that one.

The attitude isn’t much condescending as it is perplexing Sayzak. It would seem that some of you simply refuse to accept the findings of medical experts who’ve taken the time to thoroughly examine Terri during the Florida state judicial process over the past few years..

No one can know for sure if a person in her state can or can’t feel pain however you’re all missing the point. Her husband isn’t fighting for Terri because he decided to euthanize her. He’s trying to honor his wife’s wishes.

All doctors can do is offer their well qualified and expert opinions. After 15yrs I doubt if Terri is going to suddenly get any better Sayzak. Maybe? Sure there’s always a maybe but that isn’t the point.

The courts have heard all the arguments presented, even yours. All of them have unanimously concluded that this was Terri’s wish. Now after years of jurisprudence Congress wants to jump in and declare she didn’t get due process? Now the Federal Courts are involved and after reviewing the case, they too have concluded that this was Terri’s wish.

Whether any of us agree, this is the bottom line. It is all of you who want to argue everything else as the merit for keeping her alive. Maybe you are right about her feeling and maybe her husband is wrong for believing she can’t be rehabilitated. However, this is his call and he has to live with it. Government and the rest of those who seem to know what Terri wants better than she did can surely have your opinion but they need to simply butt out. This is and always was a family matter.

How many of you people with children of your own would pull the feeding tube on your child?

You keep talking about yourself, how you would want it pulled.
Think about it....what would you do if it were your child in this situation?

The brain matter dies and shrinks. The area then fills with spinal fluid. Look it up.

As for the assertation that she must have some cerebral cortex left or she would not have the movement that she does, that also is false. The brain stem controlls heart beat, eye movement, breathing, and body movement. All of those functions go on even when the cerebral cortex is gone.

Sorry, here's the link repost.

Brain Death

Firstly, I must disagree with anyone (oneofpeace too) who thinks that PVS is brain death. NINDS clearly specifies that PVS is incorrectly referred to as brain death, although brain death can result from cerebral hypoxia, which can also cause PVS.

Secondly, I do not know what that website defines as 'liquification', but my best guess is that the cell membranes disintegrate and the cellular fluid, along with all the dead organelles is released, and that is what they mean by 'liquification'. I will also state that NINDS nowhere uses that term.

M.

I picked this website to explain the process of neurological cell degeneration. Brain death defines the “entire brain”. I don’t recall anyone saying she was brain dead. I do recall people saying, as did I, that her upper cerebral cortex is dead and has been liquefied.

I pointed out a pretty good source to back up my statement. It isn’t something I made up, I heard more than one doctor say so.

SWTT has flat out stated that it was a “stupid statement”. I simply attribute that to her/his ignorance and passionate position on the subject matter.

The article quite clearly defines brain cellular liquefaction exactly as it was inflicted on Terri Schiavo

“In the absence of oxygenated blood, brain cells quickly die. The dead cells break down and liquefy.”

These are not my words, it is the words of neurologists. Rejection of it simply because you do not understand the process doesn’t make it fallacious information.

I’m sorry if you think I was getting uppity SWTT. Since you called my statement stupid, I may have been reflecting my irritation because you are not the only misinformed person basin opinion around the nation and world for that matter.

This is precisely why I say we should leave it to those who best have the expertise.

Okay..I found a statement from the appellate court to back this whole thing up!


Reviewing the medical evidence the appellate court stated:

"Theresa's brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs."

This is so sad. When she dies, I don't want to hear anything like "it's for the best" blah blah blah. Maybe it is... maybe it is... but we'll never know if it wasn't for the best.

The woman is gone, the cerebral cortex is liquid. The EEG shows no higher brain activity. A panel of five doctors (2 from parents, 2 from husband, 1 from court) all came to the consensus that she's a vegetable. What more do you want? The video they have is over four hours long. The courts have viewed this video and here "responses" are not accurate. People call for MRI and PET, but they know nothing about the imaging technique. It will provide no new evidence and the tests already done provide more than enough information then what is being requested. Shoot, PET and fMRI give less information than EEG. The courts have seen a lot more than these "Save Terri" sites.

ICB- I've seen these facts, too. Unfortunately there are those holier than thou Crusaders that are using this families suffering for another agenda.

-HECK!

I've really been struggling with this issue.

At first, I agreed with most everyone that the tube should stay removed.

Then, for some reason I began to feel all guilty inside as though by saying that I was encouraging "murder."

Every morning and night since last Friday the first thing in my mind has been Terry Shaivo. I don't even know the woman. And why should I even be caught up in this?

So, I talked to my Pastor tonight.
And like Mystic, he believes this poor woman's fate has been used and abused for the agenda of the Christian right. And it disgusts him.

Most of what he had to say was echoed by what many of you who agreed with her husband's wish had said.

Now, a few years ago when he was a Pastor in Weston, Missouri, he had a teenage daughter with a rare birth defect and he was faced with the choice of removing her feeding IV's or keep them. The doctors asked his daughter what she wanted and she said she wanted the nausea to go away. It was the nourishment that made her nauseous. So they removed the feeding IV's. She was fully aware of what was going on and she did not even feel the pain of hunger or thirst. She just felt relieved of the nausea.

It's really horrible that we are even having to discuss Terry and her family and husband and what she is going through.
And for me to believe what so many of the "Christian right" are saying about this incident and comparing it to Nazi Germany....well, I feel shame for even buying into it. Thank God it only took me a week to wise up to this nonsense.

And I want to thank many of you who put up with some of the things I said...please just realize that I had an internal struggle about all of this and actually you helped me to see this for what it is.

There are two ways to do that. 1. Future technologies and therepies. 2. Death.

I just think it's extremely unfortunate that her husband is making that choice for her. And I think it's absolutely cruel that he'd let her starve to death. At least inject her with more morphine than her body can tollerate.

I'm an athiest... Religion has had nothing to do with how I feel about this case. I feel really burdoned by this.

Sayzak it's good that you care, but you shouldn't feel burdoned with it...it's not your burdon to carry.
I've been watching the different news networks that have been profiling similar cases in the past years, though I don't remember any of them getting this much attention. This is a private matter. Anyone who is not attached to this case by blood or marriage shouldn't let it rule their emotions. Quite frankly it's nobody's business but the Shindlers and the Shiavos.
The suggestion of stem cell research is a double edged sword for the majority arguing to keep Terri alive; pro-life groups. They're for keeping Terri alive, but against using stem cells as they could come from aborted embryos and fetuses.

Actually, it didn't take him long to start lobbying to have her feeding tube removed. Only a couple of years, actually. He's been fighting with the courts for years to let her die.

If I were him though, I would let her family make the decisions. Think about it, the only thing he gains form her death is money. He loses nothing because he believes she's not there.

Her family WANTS responsibility. They WANT to take care of her. He won't let them on stupid notion that it's "her wishes" she were to die.

There's no proof of that.

There is no proof that she didn't say it either, Matt...

No proof either way, but isn't that what really matters here?

She's being starved to death on that notion.

I can't prove that my dog doesn't want to have his head blown off, so I'm just going to go ahead and let my neighborsplatter my dog's brains all over the driveway.

It's not riiiight.

What a ridiculous analogy.