Liberals & Europissts Need To Face The Facts: Sometimes War Leads To Peace

Iraq Forum

…Or they can continue to irrelevantly pound sand while holding their heads in the stuff—hmmm, sounds hard to do…



War leads to Peace. If you don't believe me, just ask the leaders of terrorist groups across the Middle East who are now suing for peace.

This weekend anti-war activists will take to the streets in New York and across the country to protest America's war effort in Iraq. This despite the fact that there is no doubt among all neutral political observers that removing Saddam Hussein from power led to the first-ever free elections in Iraq.

Even the dazed and confused editorial page of the NYTimes reluctantly admits that.

Reasonable people simply cannot disagree on the geopolitical reality that those successful elections led to freedom marches in Lebanon, where this week, 1 million citizens demanded the end of Baathist rule and Hezbollah-sponsored terrorism. Today we learn that the terror organizations Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad are all declaring an end to terrorist attacks while they seek, for the first time ever, a peaceful settlement with Israel and the United States.

Like President Bush, Israeli PM Ariel Sharon has told the world that strength is the only way to bring terrorists to the negotiating table. He is being proven right. Likewise, George Bush learned from Ronald Reagan that thugs do not respect concessions, but rather, strength.

That simple truth has led to free elections in Afghanistan and the inauguration of the first democratically elected president there in the nation's history. US troops also insured the same for Iraq, which led to a flowering of democratic activity in Lebanon, and Palestine, and even Egypt--who responded to US scolding by promising free elections and releasing from prison its most well known democratic activist.

Ironically, the same protesters who will be cursing this war of liberation, this president, and this country's troops are many of the same forces who opposed Reagan's liberation efforts in Central America and Europe. They convulsed in protest when Reagan dared to call nuclear weapons deployed to Western Europe the "peacekeepers." Millions marched in the streets and predicted Reagan's actions would destroy US alliances with Europe and lead to WWIII.

Sound familiar???

Is there any doubt that if these liberals had their way, Communists would still be ruling tens of millions in Central America and hundreds of millions in Eastern Europe and Russia?

Of course not. And now that freedom is on the march again in the most repressive region in the world-- the Middle East-- it is disturbing that these left wing radicals will take to the streets to condemn the very actions that have led to the spread of freedom across the world.

Sadly, it proves once again that too many Democrats and leftists hate the President so much that they would rather see American troops lose overseas than see George W. Bush win at home. [And of course, that goes without saying for Europissts.]

—Joe Scarborough


http://www.defenselink.mil/home/images/ASYlogo1.jpg

"I have seen their smiling faces and their attempts to say 'I love you' in broken English...I saw hope in their eyes and gratitude in their hearts for what was done for them."


http://www.defenselink.mil/home/images/ASYlogo1.jpg

Ok fer starters lets stop rewriting history here ... Reagan's actions in South and Central America were largely dirty little CIA wars in order prop one US friendly strongman over a US unfriendly one... hardly the charge of freedom...

And the Palestinians have cried and fought for Peace for years.. their leader Arafat recieved the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts... but for every agreement .. written or verbal.. the Isrealies would occupy more land.. force the Palestinians into smaller and more squalid conditions and declare that resistance was proof that weren't ready for peace... huh?

Much of the world regards Israel as an Apartheid State for a reason.

As for democracy being the reason now for military control of the middle east... that is laughable.. in the 50's Iran was democratic and the US ousted their Prime Minister and installed the Shah as a dictator who would be friendly to them.... which led to the rebellion and harsh regime of the Ayatollah's today!!!

Just let the cultures find their own path for a change...

…Or they can continue to irrelevantly pound sand while holding their heads deep in the stuff—hmmm, sounds hard to do…


History has begun to speak. Elections in Afghanistan, a historic first. Elections in Iraq, a historic first. Free Palestinian elections producing a moderate leadership, two historic firsts. Municipal elections in Saudi Arabia, men only, but still a first. In Egypt, demonstrations for democracy—unheard of in decades—prompting the dictator to announce free contested presidential elections, a historic first.

And now, of course, the most romantic flowering of the spirit America went into the region to foster: the Cedar Revolution in Lebanon, in which unarmed civilians, Christian and Muslim alike, brought down the puppet government installed by Syria. There is even the beginning of a breeze in Damascus. More than 140 Syrian intellectuals have signed a public statement defying their government by opposing its occupation of Lebanon.

Awfully convenient for Americans to describe the occupation of Lebanon as an invasion with a puppet gov't.....

Didn't Syria go to "liberate" and "protect"... many years ago with no clear exit strategy..?.........

Stop me if this sounds familiar......

…Or they can continue to irrelevantly pound sand while holding their heads deep in the stuff—hmmm, sounds kind of hard to do…

_
Iraqi People Optimistic About Their Country's Future, Poll Finds
Iraq's January 30 election seen by people as fair and impartial

Washington — A majority of Iraqis are optimistic about the direction their country is taking and are hopeful for their future, according to the results of a poll conducted by the International Republican Institute (IRI) from February 27 to March 5.

Results also show a majority of Iraqis feel that the January 30 elections were fair and impartial and that the Transitional National Assembly (TNA) will represent the Iraqi people as a whole, according to a March 16 IRI press release.

"The optimism of the Iraqi people continues to grow as they move forward in building a democratic Iraq," said Lorne Craner, president of IRI and a former U.S. assistant secretary of state for democracy, human rights and labor. "The increased optimism in Iraq is a clear result of the country's successful January 30 election," he added.

The new survey, the IRI press release notes, revealed that 61.5 percent of Iraqis believe that their country is headed in the right direction, compared to only 23.2 percent who feel Iraq is headed in the wrong direction. The nearly 40-point margin is the largest since IRI began polling in May 2004, and is more than double the margin in a poll taken in January of this year. The current poll, the release notes, also shows that more than 90 percent of Iraqis feel hopeful for their future.

Looking ahead to the constitutional process, more than 56 percent of Iraqis know that the TNA will be responsible for writing a permanent constitution. This number is up from 32.9 percent recorded in a poll conducted between November 24 and December 5, 2004. An additional 52.6 percent understood that the constitution drafted by the TNA will have to be approved by national referendum later in the year.

An Iraqi polling firm conducted 2,200 face-to-face interviews in 15 of the 18 governorates. The margin of error is plus or minus 3 percent. Results can be found at http://www.iri.org/03-15-05-IraqPoll.asp.

"Political distortion of facts- helping the sheep follow the herd for 25 years." Brought to you by the Republican Party.

I'm HECK and I approve this message.

-HECK!

The American electorate has already spoken. I realize that you are still in shock and awe. Keep pounding, though, it'll pass…

They have spoken for now... but remember eventually enough of your citizens opposed Vietnam that it had to end. All administration come to an end ... and all policies outlive their usefullness.

Remember one day another admistration will be in power...

The right wing will not hold sway indefinitely.

There Are Signs the Tide May Be Turning on Iraq's Street of Fear
By JOHN F. BURNS

Published: March 21, 2005

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Nearly two years after American troops captured Baghdad, Haifa Street is like an arrow at the city's heart. A little more than two miles long, it runs south through a canyon of mostly abandoned high-rises and majestic date palms almost to the Assassin's Gate, the imperial-style arch that is the main portal to the Green Zone compound, the principal seat of American power.

When most roads in central Baghdad are choked with traffic, there is rarely more than a trickle of vehicles on Haifa Street. At the day's height, a handful of pedestrians scurry down empty sidewalks, ducking into covered walkways that serve as sanctuaries from gunfire - and as blinds for insurgent attacks in one of Iraq's most bitterly contested battle zones.

American soldiers call the street Purple Heart Boulevard: the First Battalion of the Ninth Cavalry, patrolling here for the past year before its recent rotation back to base at Fort Hood, Tex., received more than 160 Purple Hearts. Many patrols were on foot, to gather intelligence on neighborhoods that American officers say have been the base for brutal car bombings, kidnappings and assassinations across Baghdad.

In the first 18 months of the fighting, the insurgents mostly outmaneuvered the Americans along Haifa Street, showing they could carry the war to the capital's core with something approaching impunity.

But American officers say there have been signs that the tide may be shifting. On Haifa Street, at least, insurgents are attacking in smaller numbers, and with less intensity; mortar attacks into the Green Zone have diminished sharply; major raids have uncovered large weapons caches; and some rebel leaders have been arrested or killed.

American military engineers, frustrated elsewhere by insurgent attacks, are moving ahead along Haifa Street with a $20 million program to improve electricity, sewer and other utilities. So far, none of the work sites have been attacked, although a local Shiite leader who vocally supported the American projects was assassinated on his doorstep in January.

But the change American commanders see as more promising than any other here is the deployment of large numbers of Iraqi troops. American commanders are eager to shift the fighting in Iraq to the country's own troops, allowing American units to pull back from the cities and, eventually, to begin drawing down their 150,000 troops. Haifa Street has become an early test of that strategy.

Last month, an Iraqi brigade with two battalions garrisoned along Haifa Street became the first homegrown unit to take operational responsibility for any combat zone in Iraq. The two battalions can muster more than 2,000 soldiers, twice the size of the American cavalry battalion that has led most fighting along the street. So far, American officers say, the Iraqis have done well, withstanding insurgent attacks and conducting aggressive patrols and raids, without deserting in large numbers or hunkering down in their garrisons.

If Haifa Street is brought under control, it will be a major step toward restoring order in this city of five million, and will send a wider message: that the insurgents can be matched, and beaten back.

Still, American commanders are wary, saying the changes are a long way from a victory. They note that the insurgents match each tactical change by the Americans and Iraqi government forces with their own.

"We know that we face a learning enemy, just as we learn from him," said Maj. Gen. Peter W. Chiarelli, who left Baghdad recently after a year commanding the First Cavalry Division, responsible for overall security in Baghdad and for the 800-member task force dedicated to Haifa Street. "But I believe we are gaining the upper hand," he said.

A Downturn in Rebel Fire

For now, the days when rebels could gather in groups as large as 150, pinning down American troops for as long as six hours at a time, have tapered off. American officers say only three Haifa Street mortars have hit the Green Zone in the past six months; in the last two weeks of September alone, 11 Haifa Street mortars hit the sprawling zone.


(continued)

In recent weeks, with the new Iraqi units on hand, the Americans have sent up to 1,500 men at a time on sweeps, uncovering insurgent weapons caches and arresting insurgent leaders like Ali Mama, the name taken by a gangster who was once a favored hit man for Saddam Hussein.

He is now in Abu Ghraib; others who have become local legends with attacks on the Americans have been killed, including one who used the nom-de-guerre Ra'id the Hunter, American intelligence officers say.

The two Iraqi battalions, backed by a new battalion from the Third Infantry Division, will now bear the main burden of establishing order in the sprawling district around Haifa Street - three miles deep and about half as wide, encompassing about 170,000 people, the city's main railway yards, current and former government buildings, and the Mansour Melia Hotel, favored by many Westerners based in Baghdad.

By any measure, it is a tough patch. When Mr. Hussein ordered Baghdad's old walled city bulldozed in the 1980's, he gave the street at its heart a new name, Haifa, to honor the Israeli port city that many Arabs hope will become part of a Palestinian state. In the forest of new high-rises, Mr. Hussein housed thousands of loyalists: Baath Party stalwarts, middle-class professionals from his favored Sunni minority, migrants from his hometown, Tikrit, and fugitives from other Arab countries, including Egypt, Syria and Sudan.

After Baghdad fell on April 9, 2003, the area was primed to become an insurgent redoubt. Mr. Hussein established his first hide-out somewhere along the alleyways of Sheik Marouf, a neighborhood that is still a rebel stronghold.

In some ways, Haifa Street is a microcosm of Iraq. Behind the apartment blocks lie a patchwork of Shiite communities where residents, repressed like other Shiites under Mr. Hussein, are mostly friendly to the Americans.

Interlaced with these are predominantly Sunni neighborhoods that have been insurgent bases, like Al Sadr; Fahama; Sheik Ali, a district of Sheik Marouf; and the area along the Tigris that Mr. Hussein named for himself, Saddamiya, where he attended school in the 1950's.

The Sunni neighborhoods, along with the area's Arab migrants, proved a bountiful recruiting pool for the two principal groups that form the resistance - pro-Hussein loyalists who believe they can somehow restore Baath Party rule; and militants loyal to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian-born militant who has spawned a web of terrorist groups and attracted a $25 million bounty as America's most-wanted man in Iraq.

From their Haifa Street hide-outs, the rebels have been remorseless. American units report having found headless bodies in garbage dumps and floating in the river. Twelve-year-old boys have thrown grenades. Six-year-olds have approached American patrols with whispers of insurgent hideouts, then lured them into ambushes. A missing Iraqi soldier's bloodied uniform turned up hanging from a wire near the river, with a sign in Arabic pinned to it saying, "Let this be a warning for spies."

A year ago, the American cavalry division took a major risk in shifting to foot patrols from drive-throughs in Bradley armored troop carriers. The change took its toll: the division's Haifa Street force lost five soldiers, and 25 were seriously wounded, the core of a wider group of injured men who received those Purple Hearts. But the unit estimates that it killed 100 to 200 enemy fighters, and the yield in intelligence was rich.

With the foot patrols, the Americans made friends in the Shiite communities, particularly in Showaka, a poor area where back streets are dotted with carved, Ottoman-era balconies. Ties improved with a special $2 million reconstruction program - part of the wider reconstruction in the district - that has brought 12,500 Showaka families their first indoor toilets, buried sewage pipes and modernized the electricity grid. Gone, for these people, are the centuries when sewage ran down open channels in the alleys into the Tigris.

(continued)

American morale, for the moment, is high. Lt. Col. Thomas D. Macdonald, the cavalry division officer who commanded the Haifa Street task force, believes that the Iraqis, with an affinity for their own people, can push the rebels farther back.

"I've got the enemy to the point where he can't do large-scale operations anymore, only the small-scale stuff," he said recently, during one of his last patrols, at the head of a company of 120 soldiers. "If we put in more Iraqi garrisons like this, that will be the final nail in the coffin."

Iraqi Units With 'Heart'

When Iraqi units began to serve in combat zones, desertion rates were high. During the first offensive in Falluja, last April, some soldiers refused to fight. But over the past nine months, a $5 billion American-financed effort has bought Iraqi units more than 100,000 Kalashnikov rifles, 100,000 flak jackets, 110,000 pistols, 6,000 cars and pickup trucks, and 230 million rounds of ammunition. In place of the single Iraqi battalion trained last June, there are more than 90 battalions now, totaling about 60,000 army and special police troops. No one is certain how many insurgents they face; the number, including foot soldiers, safe-house operators, organizers and financiers, is estimated to be 12,000 to 20,000.

Iraqi units still complain about unequal equipment, particularly the lack of the heavy armor the Americans use, like Bradley fighting vehicles and Abrams tanks. But the complaints among American officers about "tiny heart syndrome" - a caustic reference to some Iraqi units' unwillingness to expose themselves to combat - have diminished.

"Now, they're ready to fight," said Lt. Gen. David H. Petraeus, the American officer overseeing the retraining effort, in a recent interview at his Green Zone headquarters.

Lethal intimidation of recruits - the suicide bombing of army barracks, police stations and recruiting lines, with scores of volunteers killed - remains the single biggest problem in building the Iraqi forces, the general acknowledged. But an overwhelming majority of new recruits have refused to buckle, he said, and they understand that they are fighting, not for the Americans, but for their own country. "Guys who get blown up in the morning get themselves bandaged up, and they're back in the afternoon," he said.

The uncompromising image is one that Gen. Muhammad al-Samraa, 39, the commander of the Iraqi 303rd Battalion, based on Haifa Street, is eager to push. "My aim is 100 percent clear: all the terrorists living here, they go now," he said, in halting English. He was a major in Mr. Hussein's air defense force, and spent a year as a bodyguard and driver for a Shiite tribal leader in Baghdad before signing up for the new army.

A Shiite himself, commanding a unit composed mostly of Shiites, General Samraa has made his headquarters in the old Sajida Palace, on the riverbank at Haifa Street's northern end, a sad, looted, sandbagged relic of the pleasure dome it was for Mr. Hussein's first wife, Sajida. But the general insisted the new Iraqi forces had history on their side. "Saddam, we've seen the movie, and it's finished," he said. "He's broken. Now is the new Iraq."

Your post had the title " does this sound like Vietnam"

Well remarkably, it does.

Oh Iraq is a desert, not a jungle. But the insurgents are fighting a guerilla war against the USA while American try to train and equip Iraqi friendlies to fight the insurgents for them{ they did same in Nam}

The desperation of the resistance is such that children are fighting... this is horrifically sad. Same as in Nam.

Frustrated USA soldiers, not achieving clear cut victory and resolution, not being as loved and accepted as they thought they would be { imagine that } are taking their frustration out in prisoner abuse...

Sadly there is much here that reflects similar realities and predicaments of the Vietnam conflict.

TIDE TURNING IN IRAQ!
Read John Burns' GREAT piece from the NY Times about what's really going on in Iraq (Posts #11-13).

"Saddam, we've seen the movie, and it's finished. Now is the new Iraq." —Gen. Muhammad al-Samraa, 39, commander of the new Iraqi 303rd Battalion.

I have read it, while it wrapped up with observations that the strength of the insurgency is less than it was.. this does not bear much relation to the observation I made that there are legitimate similarities between the situations faced today in Iraq and the situations faced in Vietnam.

Barring a permanent US military base in Iraq.. I cannot see the eventual withdrawl as being anything but the heightening of a civil conflict between those that are pro-USA and those that are anti_USA ...not unlike the situation facing Syria and Lebanon... many years ago .. under the auspices of aid and protection Syria militarily occupied Lebanon.... today there are 1000's of pro-Syrian Lebanese and 1000's of anti-Syrian Lebanese... the eventual withdrawl of troops will severely test this regions ability to maintain an infrastructure without a foreign military they have come to depend upon. As well those impatient for change might view the withdrawl as defeat and rush through violence to force the changes they seek.... demands for aid and support by the failing formerly propped up Gov will have to be dealt with.. does Syria send troops back in to help? These are the kind of questions the USA will eventually face when they attempt to extricate themselves from this situation.

If in this future the pro-USA GOV is toppled... does the USA re-invade?

"The hinge of history is moving in a remarkable direction." —Sen. John McCain, Mar. 22, 2005

What do the quotes bring to the discussion .. except sound bites.

rowdyrjp - it's what he does. Pointless trying to work it out.

More profoud statements: " Sometimes War Leads To Peace"

Just SOMETIMES you reckon? Actually all wars ALWAYS lead to peace, eventually.

There is one exception to this rule and that is the United States which even when no war exists they tend to make one up (must be some need in the US psyche) ie the war on communists, crime, drugs, terrorism etc etc. Some of these wars at least have some chance of lasting forever and never coming to an end.

U.S., Iraqi Forces Kill 80 Militants After Killing 26 2 Days Earlier
Wednesday, March 23, 2005


BAGHDAD, Iraq — A raid by U.S. and Iraqi forces on a suspected rebel training camp left 80 militants dead, the single biggest one-day death toll for rebels in months and the latest in a series of blows to the country's insurgency, Iraqi officials said Wednesday.

Politicians helping shape a post-election government expected within days said negotiators are considering naming a Sunni Arab as defense minister in a move aimed at bringing Sunni Arabs into the political process — and perhaps deflate the insurgency they lead.

The U.S. military announced late Tuesday that its air and ground forces backed Iraqi commandos during a noontime raid on a suspected guerrilla training camp near Lake Tharthar in central Iraq.

Iraqi officials said Wednesday 80 rebels died in the clash — the largest number of rebels killed in a single battle since the U.S. Marine-led November attack on the former insurgent stronghold of Fallujah that left more than 1,000 dead.

On Sunday, U.S. forces killed 26 assailants after they were ambushed south of Baghdad

Uggghhhhh......

What are you doing now CJ? Gloating over death tolls?

Talk about bad taste.........

For someone who is so blood and guts gung-ho perhaps you could learn a little of what it really is to be a warrior.

The warrior is prepared to fight and kill. He will lay down his life to protect his people.

The warrior only fights when necessary. He does not impulsively start conflicts endangering the lives of himself and his fellows.

The warrior acts with dignity. War is not a game.

The warrior treats his enemy with respect, even when they have fallen. There but for the grace of God.. it could have been him.

Rowdyrjp
You are wasting your time with Curley. For want of any real experience of what the military is, he is able to write all the worst you can expect about what he does not know ...
Curley Joe: enlist know and you will at least have some credibility in posting such things.

"Special police commandos conducted a successful raid on a terrorist training camp … which killed 85 terrorists and lead to the successful capture of one Algerian," the government said in a statement.

"The commandos netted explosives, vehicles, various computers, documents and heavy weaponry. The terrorists had planned on attacking Samarra by using a large number of (car bombs) that were found at the facility."

An Interior Ministry official said among those killed were Sudanese, Algerians and Moroccans, and a commander of the special police battalion said Syrians and Saudis were also among the dead, according to their identity papers.

The death of 85 militants would mark one of the most successful days for Iraqi forces since they were set up more than 18 months ago.

A U.S. military spokesman said no U.S. troops were wounded or killed in the training camp battle.

"An early assessment of the site indicates a facility for training anti-Iraqi forces," said Major Richard Goldenberg of the U.S. 42nd Infantry Division, using the U.S. military's term for insurgents. "Documentation at the facility indicates that some members of the AIF were foreign fighters."

Listen Curley... please listen well...

No matter what side you are on in a conflict.... death tolls can never be viewed as " a success".

You may want the USA and USA friendly side to prevail...
that is your perspective...

But kindly remember that even your enemies are people with families... who just happen to desire something different than you do...

They may be wrong.. they may be right... all I am saying is try and show more decorum than cheering their deaths... the insurgents are not your team's football rivals.... cheering death is inhumane.

For anyone interested in 'decorum,' and examples thereof, one can have a clear view at this website, halfway down the page on the right, under the heading of "Know Your Enemy." Enjoy, and BEWARE, for 'decorum' teaches a hard lesson:

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/index.html

Ah yes ... being liberal and tolerant is supposed to be a mental disorder according to your link?

Give me a break!

War mongering and intolerance are the bench marks of cultural sociopathy.

No. View the videos under "Know Your Enemy." I dare you…

Dare me .... listen here zealot...

I have seen some of them.. I don't need to view them all...

I believe they are all horrific.... that quite simply IS NOT THE POINT!

Why do these deaths bother you ... but not the 100's of 1000's of Afghani's and Iraqi's that have died since 9-11?

In three days, according to Iraqi and U.S. officials' accounts, troops have killed at least 128 insurgents nationwide, culminating in the announcement of Tuesday's attack by Iraqi commandos, backed by U.S. air and ground fire. On Sunday, U.S. soldiers killed 26 insurgents south of Baghdad, while a fight during an ambush on an Iraqi security envoy killed 17 militants on Monday.

In addition:

70 Arrested in Raid by Iraqi Forces Northwest of Mosul
Wednesday, March 23, 2005
TURKISH PRESS

BAGHDAD - Iraqi security forces arrested more than 80 suspected insurgents in raids across northern Iraq over the last 24-hour period, the US military and Iraqi army said on Wednesday.

In a single raid, the Iraqi army detained Tuesday 70 suspects northwest of the volatile northern city of Mosul, which has been a premier battle terrain since November.

"Troops from the 101st Battalion, 21st Brigade and 104th Battalion, 23rd Brigade Iraqi army detained 70 individuals suspected of insurgent activity during a cordon and search operation northwest of Mosul," the US military in Mosul announced.

A large number of AK-47s and rocket-propelled grenades were confiscated, it added.

Separately, more than 200 Iraqi police and soldiers detained 12 insurgents in a pre-dawn swoop Wednesday on an industrial zone in southern Baquba, 60 kilometres (45 miles) north of Baghdad, said Iraqi army Colonel Ismail Ibrahim.

The troops stormed farms and homes and captured two men on a wanted list, while the other 10 were brought in for questioning, Ibrahim said.

One of the detained suspects was Egyptian, he added.

Yes ... well how very S.S. of you......

Why not round up the Arabs in your neighbourhood and beat them while you are at it.....

geez... heil Bush already.....

That is the impression you create when you do not follow established international law when handling prisoners of war. Or when you spout off encouraging executions and torture.

The scary part of this is ... I am not at all certain how much of what you are saying is sarcasm.