Military fail to kill Italian journalist

Iraq Forum

A companion of the freed Italian journalist who escaped Iraq yesterday is accusing American troops of deliberately trying to kill her to keep her quiet about refugees in Fallujah during the last American assault.

I don't pay for it. The freed journalist writes for an extreme-left communist newspaper: therefore she may be exploiting what happened in order to raise anti-american fellings and indirectly against the pro-american premier Berlusconi.

This (http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0307/p01s04-woiq.html) can explain what happened better than a supposed attempt to kill the journalist by american troops.

Of course they fired on the speeding vehicle on purpose. I would have blown the damn thing up if I was there and had access to an RPG. That Italian twit should be happy she is alive.

The companian to the injured/rescued journalist is saying they were not driving fast, they were 700 metres from the airport and had passed all the checkpoints and that they knew the military/politicians did not like how the Italians had been dealing with hostage takers and ambushed them.

The military says they were speeding and did not respond to warning shots, shots to the engine block, flashing lights etc.

It's early days and this story may not turn into anything because things like this are very difficult to clear up. But this is a very difficult situation for Silvio Berlusconi because there is huge opposition in Italy to keeping Italian troops in Iraq.

sordidmesh - I asked before but why don't you go enlist? The military is crying out for recruits. And if the army won't take you maybe one of the many security outfits in Iraq will take you, and they pay far more than the government. You'll then get your chance to - blow something up.

The Italian should not have been in Iraq in the first place. Any journalist poking their nose where it does not belong, has it coming to them. Especially in her case. I now question if she was even abducted.

h@ts, I'd appreciate it if you would stop suggesting what I do with my life. Especially in regard to the country (U.S.) I am indebted to. You do not know me or my life.

No one knows the truth except those involved in the incident. No one knows who Sgrena's captors were. No one knows how or why she was released. There is nothing factual to go on. Maybe there never will be. I always hope the truth to come out, but unless there is video of the incident, no one will really ever know why their vehicle was fired upon. I would bet the military records all of their radio transmissions, but we'd never get access to that unless it was released.

h@ts, how is it that it does not occur to you that this woman who was kidnapped, held hostage at gunpoint, force to record propaganda, mistreat and improperly fed, suddenly gets free and want to blast the US for trying to kill her? It just doesn’t jibe really.

All indicators here say it was an unfortunate accident. Claiming that the US wanted to kill her seems a bit far stretched. I can assure you, if they wanted her dead, she wouldn’t be alive today to tell the her side of the story.

oneofpeace -
How can you say all indicators say it was an unfortunate accident? All we have so far are two versions of the same story. And according to the journalist she would be dead if the secret service agent hadn't placed himself infront of her.

I've already been hearing that there are people at the top in Italy demanding a full murder investigation into this incident. Berlusconi is under tremendous pressure and there is enormous tension between him and Washington.

Just saying it was an unfortunate accident is not going to wash with many Italians, and because they have 3000 troops in Iraq Bush cannot just dismiss the story.

What you are hearing is coming from the left media. Of course they blame the US. Who else could they blame? Certainly not themselves.
Italy did not inform the military of the convoy or the operation. Period.
Just like journalist, the troops were doing their job. If you don't stop at the check point, you get fired on. There is zero tolerence at the check points. Their driver should have known this. After all, he was and Italian AGENT. He should have known better.
I would have fired too. If you were in that position, you would have too.

If there truly were a mass conspiracy to kill this journalist then I submit she would be dead. If they were indeed trying to kill her to keep her silent, then after inspecting the vehicle and finding her alive they would've put a bullet in her head. Obviously there was some reason to justify the use of force on the vehicle. It is extremely unfortunate that Italy never shared the information about the convoy, and in ensuring a swift escape after being held captive, I'm sure they weren't driving at granny speed toward the airport.
Point is if they wanted her dead...she would be.

Because h@ts, this is what YOU want to believe. It is evident in the topic name here that you posted.
You are just an anti-American hate monger who would like to spread hate and discontent at no expense. Your belief is that no matter what, the US is to blame. It's pretty clear to everyone here what your agenda is every day. It's kind of comical to see you foaming at the mouth on this kind of stuff.

BTW- what's the speed limit when you approach a check point? Do you know?
What's the protocal, do you know? Was the driver ever drilled on any of this? I doubt it, or he would have known what to do. Your conspiracy theory that they wanted her dead are just plain rediculous.

This could be a tragic accident that we will probably never get to the bottom of. A few people have suggested that it partly the fault of the Italians for not letting other coalition members know what was going on but the Italian secret service is like the UK and US secret service and they dont let others know what missions they are going on for security reasons.
As for the Americans well unless you were there it is hard to comment but if you look at this conflict, the first Gulf war and the Afghan war then the US seems to have an awful lot of these accidents compared to other nations that have been involved in these conflicts with them.

Right h@ts, that why you called this forum "Military fail to kill Italian journalist".
You're an idiot.
One doesn't have to look far to see your hate agenda.

Americans are not that stupid to want a person dead and then not finish the job so that the word spreads

1) If the journalist had some information US didnt want her to tell the world, what is it?
2) If US wanted to kill the journalist, why didnt they finish her off?
3) Although the idea itself of US military attacking a journalist from another country - an ally in the operation where the incident occurred - sounds ridiculous, what would they have accomplished by doing that??

The sorry fact is that when you get road blocks you get accidental deaths. I believe that in this case people should not blast the Americans for what was probably an honest mistake.
We should remember that the UK army made some tragic mistakes in N.Ireland with road blocks but they, like this incident, were mistakes and we should not start turning it into a witch hunt.

Why is it that when someone presents their opinion, we have to get these labels attached? H@ts is allowed to express his opinion, after all isn’t that what democracy is all about in the first place?

h@ts although I don’t always disagree with you, I think you need to pick your battles a little better than this one. This has to much potential in backfiring if you are supporting this journalists assertions.

For one, the title of this thread suggests that you fully agree with the journalist’s assertion that it was a hit. Furthermore, it would seem that you’re defending her assertion even though you’ve presented two sides to the issue.

I think lodgebo hit it on the head as well as legend here. We have seen numerous incidents similar to this throughout this war in Iraq and Afghanistan. As I watch the news of this continue to unfold, even Italian journalists are having trouble with the credibility of her story because it makes no sense even to them for the US to attempt to murder a journalist because we don’t believe in negotiating with hostages.

If this was a conspiracy as you seem to imply, the US is not that inept as to not finish the job, you have to know this.

An inquiry into this incident is on the way but I believe as the facts began to surface here, her assertions of her intended demise will probably proved very much exaggerated.

The Italian twit should be thankful she also did not receive a bullet to the temple. We wouldn't want to lose someone like her. I am sorry the James Bond of Italy had to die though.

Did you know the communist newspaper she works for only has about 100,000 subscribers country wide in Italy? Free supermarket newspapers do better.

100,000 subscribers=100,000 politically active communists. That seems like a lot to me.

Personally i wouldnt cry over death of a communist. They deserve endless punishment in hell for everything they have done to people.

Oneofpeace -
The title of this post was an intentionaly provocative and was paraphrased from the journalists own words. I made myself quite clear whether or not I agreed with the journalist.

chelktty: If there are countries that choose to withdraw their troops over this particular incident alone, that's incredibly moronic...

The countries that want to remove their troops from Iraq said they wanted them out before this incident. I forget the countries, possibly Ukraine, Poland, and maybe Australia.

There will be lound calls in Italy to bring the troops home but Berlusconi has said this is not up for negotiation.

sordidmesh: The Italian twit should be thankful she also did not receive a bullet to the temple

Don't tell me - you're trigger finger's just iching at the thought?

-----------------------------------------

Latest on this story I've heard is that the getaway car was not shot at at a checkpoint, but came under fire from a patrol.

legend73 -

The British media is saying the Italian public will not accept America saying this is just a regretable incident. They also announced that 2/3 of the Italian public are against the occupation and will be demanding troops are withdrawn. This isn't such a big story in the UK, because Iraq is no longer such a big story.

How was the journalist hostage portrayed on Italian television?

Commie Journalist: "The car was deliberately targeted."
U.S.: "That's just absurd."

'Nuff said.

All I got to say, if the U.S. military wanted her dead, then she would be dead. Everyone knows they are more efficent than that. The intent was to stop the vehicle before it reached them. Just going by reports they said that shrapnel from the engine compartment was embedded in her shoulder. Just from that statement alone it tells us that they were targeting the vehicle, not the occupants, to stop it before it got to them. I expect the dead Italian agent was the driver and of course he would have been a target being the driver.

There are some news from the Italian Minister of foreign affairs (official position of the Italian government), based on the reconstruction of facts given by the driver (a major of the secret services - the dead agent was not the driver):
-The car was moving at 40kph, with lights on
-The US were informed about the movement
-The fire lasted about 10 seconds and not more than 20 sec.
-After the fire two young US soldiers moved towards the car shouting remorseful words to the driver

The Italian government suspect that the soldiers did not respect the rules of engagement.
Anyway, this is light years away from a supposed attempt to kill the journalist.

Yep just sounds like another accident.

H@ts, think about this for one moment. This journalist’s reasoning for accusing the US is that we’re outraged because Italy negotiated with terrorists so we decided to kill her.

Now I’m no psychologist but my unqualified (but life experienced) diagnosis here perceives something eerily familiar in levying such a ridiculous accusation.

There are those around the world for whatever reason, who are simply extremely anti-America. They believe that the US is evil and everything we do is the same (just like this waste of human tissue called insurgents, Jihadists or WTH else they call themselves in Iraq). The scent of such an accusation based on her reasons reeks of anti US sentiment.

Now I know we aren’t as “just” as we portray ourselves and often move in our own interests but what nation doesn’t? However it is hard to fathom in the mind of the reasonable that the US would kill this woman over such a trivial issue knowing the repercussions of such an action would far outweigh any benefit.

Many leaders who sided with the US and sent troops did so against the consensus of their population. Situations like this will only inflame such a consensus even in the absence of sound reasoning. No one is immune. Many here in the US were much guilty of the same whenever S.H. was accused mainly because of our perceptions of his regime. Examples of such people are highly illustrated in these forums. This journalist is no exception to the “laws of perception”.

Perception is reality for many, even when it flies in the face of sound reason. However it doesn’t make it truthful except in the minds of those it deceives.

And... and above all I forgot:
our minister of Foreign Affairs said that this episode does not have to affect Italy's position on permanence in Iraq, because the terrorists did not kidnap the journalist because she is Italian (and because Italy has troops in Iraq), but because she is western and female.
And finally, that no ransom has been payed (this ends the absurd story about US evil forces attempting to kill those who pay ransoms, or those being freed upon payment of a ransom, that is even more absurd).

Car images:

http://www.repubblica.it/2003/e/gal...tosgrena/1.html

There are just a few holes... this say the word "end" to the journalist's story of hundreds of rounds fired.

Those are the worst photos—I cannot distinguish any holes, nor any damage… nothing. The white "hole?" on the windshield simply looks like a reflection and the rest of the photos are so poor in quality I can see nothing in the form of bullet holes, even with the aid of the arrows. Are these pics supposed to prove something or are just they a sort of curio? It looks like any other car that would be driven around out in the middle of a desert road.

Some investigation...

http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/mar2005/homecoming/h030305a5.jpg
http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/mar2005/homecoming/h030305a1.jpg


Or wait, maybe it was this guy…

http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/mar2005/homecoming/h030305a8.jpg


Or maybe this guy…

http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/feb2005/homecoming/h022305a2.jpg


Or quite possibly anyone of these guys…

http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/feb2005/homecoming/h022205a1.jpg
http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/feb2005/homecoming/h022205a3.jpg
http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/feb2005/photoessays/pi021505b6.jpg
http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/feb2005/photoessays/pi021505b8.jpg

http://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/jan2005/Homecoming/h012405a4.jpghttp://www.defendamerica.mil/images/photos/oct2004/homecoming/h100504a2.jpg

No, it was these guys!

http://home.comcast.net/~scpld/bushranch.jpg

No doubt…

I agree that these (of the car) are the worst pictures ever seen.
However, this simply does not match with a story in which "a tank was firing on us" (journalist's words) and "I found the seat covered with depleted rounds" (always journalist's words).

It seems to me a light damaged car. When I was 18 I used to damage my car worse than that simply by parking it.
This was just to affirm that anybody (even the left-minded ones) should not trust the words of this so-called journalist.

The picture of the tyre looks like a bullet just nicked it, the first picture is definitly a bullet hit, unsure about the rest maybe if you save them and enlarge them it will become more clear. But what this does prove is that the car was not under constant fire and was not under fire very long.

Had the military wished it, a single round from a Bradley's 25mm gun and there would have be nothing left of the commie and her car bur a smoldering heap.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m2-lookout-trench.jpg

Still the accounts don't match and now Berlusconi is saying the car was not speeding and it stopped when told to do so and the military where fully informed about what was going on.

If this is what Berlusconi is now saying then a better explanation than, whoops sorry about that, is needed.

Then at best it was a claim of negligence and this is in dispute at the moment.

In reading the account of this journalist, she stated that they were all so jubilant at her release and chatting an being jolly, isn’t it plausible that this is why they didn’t see the warning lights or the guns being fired in the air?

Again, just speculation however we can put to rest that imbecilic nonsense chapeau coming from that journalist that she was targeted for killing. Her story just doesn’t add up.

I for one don’t understand h@t’s why you say the images of that car doesn’t support the claims of the soldiers. Could you elaborate?

oneofpeace -
No-one deny's that the agent was killed and the journalist was injured, the US troops have said they fired and hit the car, and yet there's hardly any damage. If they were trying to stop a suicide bomber they would have riddled the car with ammo to make sure it stopped. According to Berlusconi, the car stopped when asked to do so.

The photographs are such poor quality and badly taken, that as evidence they're worse than useless.

The problem here is one of political diplomacy, keeping your own people happy and politicians protecting their skins. Berlusconi has sided with Bush in an upopular war. The Italian people have a right to have this incident properly investigated and Berlusconi knows it, and even Bush understands the importance of how this is handled and how tricky it could be for the Italian PM.

I've just read the following: "The Italian leader has accepted an offer from the United States to hold a joint investigation of last Friday's shooting outside the Baghdad airport."

oneofpeace: So it is Berlusconi’s assertion that now after being signaled to stop, US troops started firing on the car? Are you kidding me? The Journalist’s rendition is that the car was traveling and suddenly fired on without probable cause. How can two people in the same car not know that the car stopped first?

Berlusconi assertions right or wrong are important. The Italian troops in Iraq are important to the ongoing occupation. If neither of these things were important Bush would have ignored the outcry for a thorough investigation.

Troops have “rules of engagement”. They say the car didn’t stop and they fired into the engine block. That is totally consistent with the pictures we see. If the journalist’s assertion that the car was riddled with bullets without warning is true, then there should have been more holes than what we see in this car despite it’s poor quality, especially in the windshield and sides. What we wouldn’t see in these pics are the holes in the front of that car’s grill.

Neither of us know the facts. We just have two (now three with Berlusconi's) different stories.

Agreed and the US offered a thorough investigation of it too. Anyone going against the consensus of their people wouldn’t ask for anything less.

This by far isn’t an isolated incident of mistaken or friendly fire h@ts. So what makes this different? Are you saying you believe the assertions that the US tried to kill her because her freedom was negotiated? Please don’t tell me so because you’re gonna lose some serious points here if you do.

The ONLY difference here is that politically there could be consequences, which I've mentioned above. There may not be but there could be.

I never said I thought the sodiers tried to kill her. Seeing as the two stories - the journalists and the militaries are completely different - there is no way of knowing who is telling the truth until the stories are investigated. No surprise to hear people on this forum automatically assume the journalist is lying, no evidence required whatsoever, other than she writes for a left wing paper.

Hats it is not the reporters occupation or poltical beliefs that makes people question her but the fact that her stroy is so unbelivable.
You were not one of the troops manning the road block so you have no idea the mindset that these guys are in. I was in the forces and although I never manned road blocks I used to see boys going out to do it in Ireland, they were worried, wary but above all professional, I imagine that the US forces would be the same. So the idea that this van stopped and then they opened fire just does not seem to wash it seems more likely that this van gave the appearance it was not going to stop despite being requested to do so, in that instance you open fire because the only logical explanation for not stopping is that it is an attack or a person with something to hide.
The US has made a serious of bad decsions regarding friendly fire in the past few years but this is nothing more than an accident.
If the US wanted her dead as she is accuisng they would not have been so crued by doing it this way, they would have probably sent a spy or a special forces unit to do it and avoided all this fuss

If I had my druthers, the car would have been atomized and Sgrena's little story would have never seen daylight.

Sordidmesh, I'm beginning to think h@t's assessment of you may not be too far off the mark. At least you're portraying yourself as such.

JAFUO (Just Another 'Freakin' Unqualified Opinion) Had to clean it up....

Troops Who Fired On Hostage Were Protecting U.S. Ambassador

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- U.S. troops who mistakenly killed an Italian intelligence agent last week on the road to Baghdad's airport were part of extra security provided by the U.S. Army to protect U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte, a U.S. official said Thursday.

full story here: http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4271539/detail.html

You wouldn't have destroyed the vehicle?

"The top U.S. general in Iraq has said he had no indication that Italian officials gave advance notice of the route the Italians' car was taking. In a statement released after the shooting, the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division, which controls Baghdad, said the vehicle was speeding and refused to stop."

Source: http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4271539/detail.html

Italy is at fault for not coordinating with the U.S. Army. End of Story.