Let's put the Christ back into Christmas!!!

Holidays Forum

I've had it up to here with the ACLU and their anti-Christ crusade. Every where I turn some town, school, court is getting sued for having a Christmas display. Children in school can't sing Christmas songs or having anything to do with Christ. Stores are having HOLIDAY sales instead of Christmas sales. Even TV shows have taken Christ out of Christmas. One show in particular is Ellen with her Halla-day celebration.

A side note here is the school teacher who isn't allowed to teach about Americas Historical documents like the constitution and Declaration of Independance because they have the word Christ or God in them.

So here is my plan, my crusade, and that is to boycot any business or any TV show or anyone who wants to step on my right to celebrate Christmas by taking away those symbols.

I will not shop in a store that can't mention Christmas. Who can't say that they are having a Christmas Sale or only sells Holiday decorations. I will not send my child to school where they won't do a Christmas play or wont sing Christmas songs. And by God they just better not take away that Nativity from the court house. WHO DOES IT OFFEND???? WHY???

This is it folks. I'm taking back CHRISTMAS. Let's all take back Christmas.

Since when does the few overule the majority. There are more Christians in this country than any other religion. And I don't really believe that Jews don't want us to celebrate Christmas. And I don't believe that Muslims don't want us to celebrate Christmas. So who really doesn't want us to celebrate Christmas. Answer me this simple question.

Oh and the same goes for God. Stop taking God away too.

So are you with me on this?

They aren't allowed to teach religion. So they aren't being taught anything about Christmas. But singing Carols and having Christmas plays isn't teaching. Putting up decorations isn't teaching. It's allowing those the right to celebrate their beliefs. Christmas has been around for a great long time. The Christmas tradition has been in the United States since there has been a United States. Now I'm not saying that they shouldn't respect Hanuka or Ramadan or Kwanza or any other religious beliefs. Alll I'm saying is don't take away my belief. Let me celebrate the way we celebrated for centuries. And you know what, I wont complain about your beliefs.

Im not really a religious person...but I can never understand the big deal about having a nativity set at the courthouse or wherever....

I'm sure the courthouse wouldnt stop others from putting up symbols of Hanukkah if they wanted.

I just dont understand people freaking out over something like this...dont they have better things to do than to have a hissy fit over a nativity scene that sits outside for two weeks?

don't you just love how ACLU-freaks complain about Christians shoving their agenda in people's faces, and then turn around and shove there's in everybody elses?

Hear Hear!!!

This is happening here now as well Tony Blair has taken the word Christmas out of his offical Chrismas crad so as not to offend people. Truth is that most people are not offended by Christmas I think it is just a few people that have to much power. You get people who are Jews, Muslims etc who are saying that they dont get offended by Chritsmas and dont see what the fuss is about in removing the word Christmas from everything. The people over the road from me are Muslims and they wish me a merry Christmas every year because they have respect for evryone to celbrate thier relgious festivals, thats the way it should be.

i don't really understand why that woman took prayer or anything that had to do with "religion" out of schools anyway.
see it all happened a long time ago when this one woman took all that stuff out of school im pretty sure yall older people heard about it but anyways
she took it out of school, but i dont understand why because students like me need prayer in school. prayer goes a long way and it can change alot of things.

and about the putting "christ" back in christmas thing im with you on that.
i just looked up the word christmas and it says," a christian feast commemorating the birth of jesus. that means to me that its not all about how much money you get or the clothes or wat ever u want or wat u give somebody else, i mean dont get me wrong its nice to get that stuff but that is not wat it is all about.
its about the birth of our lord and savior
the man who died on the cross for our sins
because of him we are alive sitting, standing, wat ener you are doing right now he is the reason.
that is why i cant understand those people who claim they dont believe in him
im not making a big deal im just speaking my mind im mean that is what this site is for aint it?
well how can u say you dont believe in something?
you have to have the acknowledgement that it is there to say that it aint, to say that u dont believ in it right?
that's something to think about

well guys ive said wat i had to say so now im going back to class

bye

Ron, I won't shop at stores that took away the "Merry Christmas" signs and replaced them with "Seasons Greetings". I am very tired of the ACLU complaining about Christian things. There are bigger problems in the world than a Nativity scene. They should worry about the homeless, the abused children in the world, not how so many of us celebrate the holidays.

I will say that I was shocked after all the press about no mention of Christmas in the schools, to find out that my son learned "Feliz Navidad" in school and they learned how to play the dreidel. You would think in California it would be a no no. I was pleasantly surprised.

I completely agree, I don't see what the big deal is. It is Christmas for heavens sake... it's not like it's Merry Murder day! From now on no more shopping at evil " Happy Holidays" stores. Honestly Christmas has suffered enough, it has been twisted to the point where people think that the point of christmas is giving and getting gifts and spending time with family. The gift has already been given, and spending time with the family is nice, but not the point. The point is to give thanks for the birth of Jesus. The point is we want to celebrate the miracles that happened that night, and the miracles that would come from it in later years to come. Poor christmas here has been mutliated by greedy money making businesses, and now they want to do away with Christmas completely!


*sigh* Poor christmas...

now.... while I 100% recognize the hyprocracy of ACLU and would delight in their demise as much as any of you, let's not forget that Christmas is not a Christian holiday...

explain yourself dekka I'm confused now!

nowhere in the Bible is Christ's birth commanded to be recognized.

not that there is anything wrong with celebrating Jesus's birth.

but no one know's when the heck Jesus of Nazereth's birthday was anyway.

Eastern Orthodox Christmas is in Janurary. Catholic CHristmas is in December. Non-Western Christians do not observe "Christmas."

It was created when Roman Paganism was mixed with "Christianity" when it became the "official religion" of the Roman Empire.

Which actually persecuted true Christians.

Now... I am not trying to say that celebrating Christmas is blasphemous... and I think it is unconstitutional for the ACLU to try to ban it.

"There shall be NO LAW passed regarding religion."
that means no laws supporting relgion, and equally, no laws banning it.

but it's not "Christian"

"Happy Holidays" isn't neccessarily anti-Christmas though. I take it as including Thanksgiving and New Years as well as Christmas and Hannakah and whatever else is going on (Festivus ).

Festivus.. hells yeah

but trust me... Happy Holidays is utter garbage.

We all know that it's freakin' Christmas.

If we absolutely MUST make a "Holidy Season" let's make it during the Summer huh?
December sucks balls.

hehe not where we live!

I know.... I wish I could have a real white Christmas one year. A cold Christmas where eating hot food in the middle of the day actually makes sense, instead of trying to cook a turkey when it's 40 degrees outside.

Yea well you always want what you don't have. I'm flying out this year to get away from the cold!

I actually saw the ultimate low in removing Christmas, it was in a commercial. You know the song "We wish you a Merry Christmas, We wish you a Merry Christmas .... and a Happy New Year"? Well this commercial changed it to "We wish you a Happy Holidays". Same song different words.

Come on, isn't that going a bit too far. It was for a car dealer and guess what, I won't buy one of those cars. But I was so outraged about the commercial that I don't remember what kind of car it was. I guess their ad had the opposite affect.

I'll tell you this is a dangerous course for any business. In trying to not offend a very minority of people who don't believe in Christmas. I'm not talking about the Jewish because they believe in our right to celebrate our beliefs as long as we believe in their right to celebrate their beliefs . Is it good business to alienate the majority.

I understand the is a website all about this.

lol

Once again foamy the squirell captures my heart...
he says it perfectly! Please ignore the swearing and the language his points are actually very good.

http://www.illwillpress.com/xmess.html

hehe "Neo-Yuppies"

damn yuppies

I salute you Foamy Squirrel!

Seems this is a hot topic all across the county. Christians are taking back Christmas.

I saw on the news today that a group of athiest decided to have an Anti-Christmas demonstration, however they were way out numbered by a Christian Demonstration and nowhere to be found.

In another instance (I don't think it was the same) I town refused to take down a Nativity on the Court House lawn stating that it wasn't them (the town government) who put it up.

I'm with Dekka on the whole Christmas issue. The holiday came out of pagan rituals, and the date that we have, being December 25, is actually supposed to be related to ANOTHER claim of immaculate conception. Some queen was widowed, but seeing someone, and got pregnant with an illegitimate son she later named Tamuus. So, the date relates to Tamuus' birthday, not Christ's, as I understand it.

So, taking Christ's name out of the holiday doesn't bother me at all, since the holiday wasn't originally established to celebrate his birthday at all, from what I understand.

So you elect to not celebrate, no tree, no presents, no shopping, no going to Church, no nativity. So I take it you are not Christian. So what do you do during this part of the year?

The History of Christmas





The history of Christmas dates back over 4000 years. Many of our Christmas traditions were celebrated centuries before the Christ child was born. The 12 days of Christmas, the bright fires, the yule log, the giving of gifts, carnivals(parades) with floats, carolers who sing while going from house to house, the holiday feasts, and the church processions can all be traced back to the early Mesopotamians.
Many of these traditions began with the Mesopotamian celebration of New Years. The Mesopotamians believed in many gods, and as their chief god - Marduk. Each year as winter arrived it was believed that Marduk would do battle with the monsters of chaos. To assist Marduk in his struggle the Mesopotamians held a festival for the New Year. This was Zagmuk, the New Year's festival that lasted for 12 days.

The Mesopotamian king would return to the temple of Marduk and swear his faithfulness to the god. The traditions called for the king to die at the end of the year and to return with Marduk to battle at his side.

To spare their king, the Mesopotamians used the idea of a "mock" king. A criminal was chosen and dressed in royal clothes. He was given all the respect and privileges of a real king. At the end of the celebration the "mock" king was stripped of the royal clothes and slain, sparing the life of the real king.

The Persians and the Babylonians celebrated a similar festival called the Sacaea. Part of that celebration included the exchanging of places, the slaves would become the masters and the masters were to obey.

Early Europeans believed in evil spirits, witches, ghosts and trolls. As the Winter Solstice approached, with its long cold nights and short days, many people feared the sun would not return. Special rituals and celebrations were held to welcome back the sun.

In Scandinavia during the winter months the sun would disappear for many days. After thirty-five days scouts would be sent to the mountain tops to look for the return of the sun. When the first light was seen the scouts would return with the good news. A great festival would be held, called the Yuletide, and a special feast would be served around a fire burning with the Yule log. Great bonfires would also be lit to celebrate the return of the sun. In some areas people would tie apples to branches of trees to remind themselves that spring and summer would return.

The ancient Greeks held a festival similar to that of the Zagmuk/Sacaea festivals to assist their god Kronos who would battle the god Zeus and his Titans.

The Roman's celebrated their god Saturn. Their festival was called Saturnalia which began the middle of December and ended January 1st. With cries of "Jo Saturnalia!" the celebration would include masquerades in the streets, big festive meals, visiting friends, and the exchange of good-luck gifts called Strenae (lucky fruits).

The Romans decked their halls with garlands of laurel and green trees lit with candles. Again the masters and slaves would exchange places.

"Jo Saturnalia!" was a fun and festive time for the Romans, but the Christians though it an abomination to honor the pagan god. The early Christians wanted to keep the birthday of their Christ child a solemn and religious holiday, not one of cheer and merriment as was the pagan Saturnalia.

But as Christianity spread they were alarmed by the continuing celebration of pagan customs and Saturnalia among their converts. At first the Church forbid this kind of celebration. But it was to no avail. Eventually it was decided that the celebration would be tamed and made into a celebration fit for the Christian Son of God.

Some legends claim that the Christian "Christmas" celebration was invented to compete against the pagan celebrations of December. The 25th was not only sacred to the Romans but also the Persians whose religion Mithraism was one of Christianity's main rivals at that time. The Church eventually was successful in taking the merriment, lights, and gifts from the Saturanilia festival and bringing them to the celebration of Christmas.

The exact day of the Christ child's birth has never been pinpointed. Traditions say that it has been celebrated since the year 98 AD. In 137 AD the Bishop of Rome ordered the birthday of the Christ Child celebrated as a solemn feast. In 350 AD another Bishop of Rome, Julius I, choose December 25th as the observance of Christmas.


http://www.holidays.net/christmas/story.htm

Ron, I know Christians who do not celebrate Christmas. Personally, I do. It is a time of year that I remember the miracle that happened. When we were all given a great gift. Yes, I also do the whole commercialized shebang, but it is time spent with my family. I am pretty sure that being together and thinking about how grateful I am for each and every member is o.k.

I grew up christian and celebrated christmas all my life. My church does not officially recognize it as a celebration of christ's birth, because nowhere in the bible does it instruct us to celebrate or commemorate it. I always wanted to celebrate it as a kid, because I wanted presents.

Never believed in Santa, but I thought that the story was fun enough. I'm AGAINST lying to kids about things like Santa and the tooth fairy, and the easter bunny. The fun is in the fantasy, but it should be noted with the kid that it's all in fun, and not real, like we do with their favorite cartoons.

I still celebrate Christmas, but it's more now for getting together with my family, and giving my daughter something to look forward to, where she can have fun opening presents and enjoying her new bunch of gifts, and I can have a great time watching her be so happy. I don't feel the need to associate that with Christ's birth, because the tree has nothing to do with Jesus, and neither does the wrapping of presents, or the festive lights, or Santa. And even if it did, advertisers and big retailers have turned the season into a cash cow, and made it less about the season, and more about the dollar.

Christmas is still a fun time for me, but I just try to look at it based on what it really is. And I make it what I want it to be for me and my family.

We do a lot of religious things that are not quoted in the Bible. It does not make them wrong.

If you are interested in learning more about the History of Christmas take a look here.

It describes a lot of where our traditions began.

RA- you can celebrate Christmas all you want, but I am all for toning down the religious rhetoric in public schools. There's an ever-increasing amount of people who do not celebrate Christmas, and in public schools, they shouldn't have to have it crammed down their throats.

I celebrate Christmas, but I remember in grade school it was freakin' everywhere.

Now, I am no fan of the ALCU or any special interest group. They piss me off royally. They've gone way over board on this and many other issues.

But in this day and age, we have to be more cognizant of other people's beliefs. Put yourself in the shoes of the minority.

And let’s remember that the modern image of Santa Claus was crated by Coca Cola. If I were you, I'd would be more concerned about Jesus’ birthday being demeaned by big business.

Don't worry, the right-wing religious majority isn't going to be toppled by bleading heart liberals any time soon.

-HECK!

You know Christmas is all about the kids. Why do you want to take that away from them? Oh is it because you aren't a kid and don't enjoy it anymore. It's just like the girls father in California that said his daughter shouldn't have to say Under God in the Pledge. When the girl was asked it about she didn't have a problem with it. Do you think these kids want Christmas taken away from them? Again we are a democracy where we do things by the vote of the majority. And I'll bet if you took a vote there would be Christmas in the schools. But I bet there would also be celebrations of everyone elses faith and/or holliday celebration. We will not allow a select few dictate to the majority.

Every day I celebrate Christ's birth and life.
Christ (mass) is a pagan tradition and I don't follow it.
Never seen a Harry Potter movie either and never will. There are many pagan influences on American life. I reject them all.

As far as atheists and pagans attacking "Christmas." Well, they actually believe that can harm me as a Christian. Not.

They are attacking symbols.
Next they will be attacking Christians themselves....and if I perish, I perish....I'll be seeing my beloved Jesus all the more sooner.
I refuse to follow any pagan god or pagan tradition.

Pagen tradition??? Your kidding right? Christ (mass) comes from the 3 Catholic Masses desicribed in the newadvent website which I gave a link to earlier.

This is not to say that there wasn't a pagen celebration around this time of year. Christmas came about in protest of that celebration.

Not joking.
Roman catholicism is steeped in paganist rituals.

The tree: hearkens back to the worship of Nimrod
Gift giving: The wise men didn't come near Christ at his birth. The wise men didn't show up until Jesus was 2 years old.
Santa: do I even have to go here?
Mass: where the supposed "priest" turns wine and crackers into what he believes to be the actual blood and body of Christ? Thereby, symbolically crucifying Christ over and over again with every Mass?
I could go on and on, I'll stop here.

And Easter? You mean the worship of Astarte (Easter), the pagan goddess of fertility, ala bunnies, eggs....?

No thanks.

Jesus is all I need. And I don't need a special day to remember him by.
Besides Jesus was born near the time of the Jewish sukkot as the Bible indicates. Sukkot usually occurs in September or October.

As I stated. If pagans and atheists want to remove Christian symbols. So what! Jesus Christ lives in my heart and they cannot remove Him from my heart. The best they can do is kill me.

Christmas long ago supplanted the old pagan festivals, and those religions (except where resurrected in bits and pieces to be stewed in a New Age melting pot) are effectively dead. Setting the nativity on December 25 was an anti-pagan movement. It was meant to make men focus on the Incarnation of Jesus Christ rather than on pagan gods and accompanying sexual escapades, and it largely succeeded.

So why did the Western Church chose December 25th? The decision may have been aimed at displacing pagan worship. Throughout history, many pagan celebrations have fallen on (or near) the December 25th date. Sol Invictus, the "unconquered sun god," was one of the central gods worshipped by the Romans in the 3rd century. Under the Emperor Aurelian, this god was elevated, and December 25th was celebrated as his birthday. The Roman winter festival of Saturnalia, focused on the god of harvest, and replete with licentious behaviour, was held from December 17th through 24th. Around this time of year, the Babylonians celberated the birth of the son of the Babylonian queen of heaven; the Egyptians celebrated the birth of the son of Isis; and the Arabs celebrated, on the 24th of December, the birth of the moon (which they worshiped). Tthe Anglo-Saxons, according to Hislop, observed what they called "Yule-day" on the 25th of December, "long before they came in contact with Christianity." Before the adoption of the Gregorian calendar, December 25th had been the first day of the Anglo-Saxon year....Christians probably adopted this date to take the focus off the SUN and put the spotlight on THE SON.



http://www.literatureclassics.com/a...zine/pagan.html


As for Easter:

Bede may have been wrong, and the word "Easter" may not have come from the name of a goddess. The King James translators certainly did not understand the word "Easter" in this way when they used it to translate the Greek pascha, or Passover, in Acts 12:4! Another explanation is that "Easter" derives from an Old German root, ostern, for dawn or east, which is the time and place of the rising sun. This makes more sense as a reason why a day commemorating Jesus' resurrection would have been called "Easter." Jesus is thought to have risen around dawn on Sunday. Since he is called "the sun of righteousness" (Malachi 4:2), it would be appropriate to call a day in honor of his resurrection, "Easter" — the dawn of the Rising Son, Jesus.

http://www.wcg.org/lit/church/holidays/sineastr.htm

Oh I see, so Christ (mass) is supposed to be a pagan like celebration only leaving out all the messy sex and worshipping Christ instead of the long list of pagan gods you supplied.

No thanks.

Regarding "Easter"
I call it Resurrection Day.

And by no means am I trying to say its wrong for anyone else to celebrate Easter or Christmas.

I am merely giving my own convictions on the subject and how I look at it.
It would probably be different if I had children....but since I don't, I don't feel compelled to celebrate Dec. 25 as differently as any other day.

Interesting, Catholics refer to Easter at the Resurrection as well.

mystic says emphatically : "Hey look...I didnt create Christmas...the Christians did."

Actually, it was those pagan Roman Catholic priests, popes, cardinals and bishops who came up with it...not the Christians. And I was merely responding to your quote....wasn't implying you created it.

Just research it for yourself if you are really interested.
Google is a great tool. Try it.

Aww heck...I put in the words pagan Roman Catholic and lookey here...among others...

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm...sm/catholic.htm

Thats just a link to a page that asks a question of whether Roman Catholicism is pagan or Christian...

I said link me to the page of an official religion called Pagan Roman Catholicism....

But I already know...thats not a religion...thats an opinion.

The main thing here is that Christmas is not celebrated BECAUSE God INSTRUCTED is to, but because we WANT to.

SWTT is right about christmas being nowhere near Jesus' birth date also. If the idea was to be as close as possible to celebrating ON Jesus' birthday, then the celebration would be nowhere NEAR December.

It was mentioned somewhere before (I THINK it was on this site, but I can't be sure...) That Jesus was born closer to springtime, because that's mainly the time of year when shepherds watch their flocks by night, as the ewes are close to giving birth. Any other time, the sheep would already be in the fold by nightfall, generally safe and sound, so no mention of shepherds watching their flocks by night would be necessary in reference to the time of Christ's birth.

I mean lets be realistic...I could lead you to this page:

This has a few book for people to read:


http://www.christianitytoday.com/hi...2004/oct28.html

So if its not a Christian thing....why do Christians celebrate it?



From the webpage:



Celebrate the Miracle of Christmas with Christian History !



Mary
Christian History-Issue 83

Let Christian History take you beyond the miracle of the Virgin Birth.


Jesus of Nazareth
Christian History-Issue 59

Then continue with the Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth.





Only $5.00 each!
Order your copy now:

• Mary
• Jesus of Nazareth

And I have to say, that was an interesting revelation on it. Still, one could consider that the idea why the german root was used, was in relation to the dawning of new life, or fertility... Either way, I guess people could twist facts and spin them anyway they really want. The main thing that I wanted to express was about Christmas though, and it's becoming more and more of a heated argument throughout the denomination I grew up in. I say, let people do what they want. I celebrate a coming together of family in a MUCH bigger and appealing way than Thanksgiving offers. Especially in light of the fact that my family lives in another city, and thanksgiving for us is in October, which is still too close for my salary to allow me to visit my family on both holidays, although in the near future I expect that to change...

Personally, all I'm invested in where Christmas is concerned, is the "cheer" part and connecting with my family. Any religious connotations that cling to Christmas don't mean a thing to me, except when it comes to classic carols and songs on old vinyl that have sentimental value to me and remind me of growing up.

mystic says this:
"So if its not a Christian thing....why do Christians celebrate it?"

My point is. Not all Christians celebrate it. If you want to argue about that, you have an audience made up of yourself.

My second point is.
Religious dates. Religious symbols.
If the ACLU and all the atheists and pagans want to spend their time in courts arguing such nonsense. Go ahead. It really doesn't affect me.

If they want to make limits and hindrances on my ability to worship. I will be in their face or I will break the law. They will have to abolish the first amendment before that ever happened. And even without the first amendment, I would continue to worship Jesus even under the threat of death or imprisonment.
In Denver, for example, atheists cited a zoning law and home Bible studies were not allowed to park by the house which hosted the Bible study. That's fine.
I will walk 5 blocks to a Bible study I don't care. I'll follow the stupid law, but it won't stop me from going to a Bible study.

Belief in Chrismas...Easter...Tooth Fairy....Hannuka, etc....

Not the imortant thing.

Without these isms, The merchants would go out of business.

I was in the Mall yesterday and walked midst thousands of xmas shoppers and enjoyed the smiles upon the busy merchant;s faces.


Traditions are good for the economy.


Period........End of discussion.

Just think of all the debt people are acruing due to the holidays. They work the rest of the year just to pay off their credit cards.
That's stupid just in itself.

I receive and give year round. The world system no longer receives my tithe in interest and finance charges on unsecured debt.

I'll send you my address too, because I receive year round too.
I'll send you $100, then you can send me $100.

Zero net loss: that's better than paying interest!

Sounds good...You first.....

Wow this has kind of got out of hand, This thread isn't whether or not you believe in Christmas, it's for those of us who wish to take Christmas back. I don't really like all the commercialization of Christmas but I don't want Christmas taken away by the liberal left ACLU.

mystic says: You did say things might be different if you had kids, which I find odd. If you dont celebrate it now, why would that change if you had kids?"

"Might be." It's a hypothetical. I'd like to say I would believe as I do now. But having kids would have changed my life in a big way...and I don't know how I would have been had this occurred.

"Let's put the Christ back into Christmas."
That's a personal choice. Wouldn't let a horde of atheists and pagans taking babies out of mangers stop ya from believing what you want to believe.

Ron...thought you might find this interesting...it fits right in with this thread.



Christians protest actions that play down Christmas' religious nature

By Richard Willing, USA TODAY

Julie West is tired of being wished "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas." She's annoyed with department stores that use "Season's Greetings" banners, and with public schools that teach about Hanukkah and Kwanzaa but won't touch the Nativity story.


So last week, she sent a baked protest to a holiday party at her first-grade son's school: a chocolate cake with vanilla frosting and red icing that spelled out "Happy Birthday Jesus."


"Christmas keeps getting downgraded, to the point that you're almost made to feel weird if you even mention it," says West, a resident of Edmonds, Wash., who describes herself as a non-denominational Christian. "What's the matter with recognizing the reason behind the whole holiday?"


This Christmas season, West has plenty of company. Christians and traditionalists across the nation, fed up with what they view as the de-emphasizing of Christmas as a religious holiday, are filing lawsuits, promoting boycotts and launching campaigns aimed at restoring references to Christ in seasonal celebrations.


From New Jersey to California, Christians are moving to counter years of lawsuits that have made governments wary about putting Nativity scenes on public property, and that occasionally have led schools to drop Christmas carols from holiday programs:


• In Bay Harbor Islands, Fla., a Christian sued in federal court after town officials refused to let her erect a Nativity scene next to a menorah, or Hanukkah candelabra, on a causeway. Last week, a judge ordered the town to comply.


• In Maplewood, N.J., parents and students recently petitioned the local school board after school officials dropped even instrumental versions of Christmas music from class programs.


• In Denver, a Protestant church responded to the city's decision to drop "Merry Christmas" from public signs by trying to enter a Christmas-themed float in the holiday parade. Supporters picketed the parade and sang Christmas carols after the float was rejected.


• In California, a group called the Committee to Save Merry Christmas is boycotting Federated Department Stores. The group claims that Federated's affiliates, including Macy's, prohibit clerks from saying "Merry Christmas" and ban the word "Christmas" from ads and store displays. The retail giant says it has no such policy.


Even Kwanzaa, the African-American harvest celebration, has taken a hit. In Los Angeles, the Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson, a conservative black activist, has urged black Christians to spurn Kwanzaa, which he calls a "pagan holiday."


Split over 'Happy Holidays'


The new battles over religion's role in holiday celebrations come more than two decades after the American Civil Liberties Union and other groups began going to court to try to require municipalities to remove Nativity scenes and other religious displays from public property. The ACLU argued that such religious symbols violated the First Amendment's ban on government-endorsed religion.


In two rulings in the 1980s, the U.S. Supreme Court said that Nativity scenes are acceptable when they are combined with other symbols - such as a Santa Claus house - that indicate Christmas is a secular holiday in American culture as well as a religious one.


Nevertheless, the threat of lawsuits and a desire to be more sensitive to the nation's growing number of non-Christians - who made up about 18% of the U.S. population in a 2002 survey by Pew Charitable Trusts - has led many governments, schools and businesses to de-emphasize Christ in Christmastime celebrations. Phrases such as "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings" have replaced "Merry Christmas" at many public venues.


In a new CNN/USA TODAY/Gallup Poll, 44% of Americans surveyed said the trend toward "Happy Holidays" is a change for the better, and 43% said it wasn't. Only 11%, however, said they avoid saying "Merry Christmas" out of fear of offending someone.


Carol Sanger, spokeswoman for Federated Department Stores, says Federated employees use phrases such as "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays" interchangeably with "Merry Christmas" in order to be "more reflective of the multicultural society in which we live."


She says the chain aims to "embrace all" the religious and secular holidays that occur in November and December.


"If you were Druid, I'd be wishing you a 'Scintillating Solstice,' " Sanger says.

John Whitehead, director of the Rutherford Institute, a group in Charlottesville, Va., that defends against challenges to speech and religion rights, says the recent trend has been for schools and municipalities to excise "all mention of Christmas, out of some misshapen idea that this respects diversity."

He is particularly critical of decisions such as that made by the school board in Maplewood, N.J., which decided to drop traditional carols and other Christmas music from public school programs during the mid-1990s after receiving several complaints.

This year, the ban was extended even to instrumental versions of Christmas songs.

Board President Brian O'Leary said in a statement that playing songs that "focus on religious holidays ... could become an opportunity not to learn about a religious holiday or tradition, but to celebrate it."

Bans are 'misplaced'

Charles Haynes, senior scholar at the First Amendment Center in Arlington, Va., says that such bans are "rare" and "misplaced."

Court decisions, Haynes says, permit public school students to study religion and to perform religious music as part of the curriculum, provided that religious practices are not endorsed.

Whitehead says that overly cautious approaches to mentioning Christ in Christmas celebrations has meant that "in the name of offending no one, you now have high school kids who can't play music that's part of the culture, and store clerks who are afraid to say, 'Merry Christmas.' It takes a joyous and merry day and just makes it blah."

Sandra Snowden agrees. According to papers she filed in a federal lawsuit, the resident of Bay Harbor Islands, Fla., was "offended" that the town allowed a menorah, but not a Nativity scene, to be placed along a public causeway.

When she protested, court papers say, town leaders countered that the menorah, which commemorates the rededication of the Temple in Jerusalem after a Jewish military victory in 165 B.C., was a secular symbol of freedom.

Before a federal judge ruled in her favor, Snowden rejected the town's offer to install a Christmas tree rather than a Nativity scene, which the town officials had called "divisive."

Those seeking to put more Christ into Christmas have had other successes.

In Mustang, Okla. on Dec. 14, parents incensed that a Nativity sequence had been dropped from a school holiday program organized to help defeat an $11 million school bond referendum.

And in Washington state, cake maker Julie West is claiming a small victory.

Although her son's teacher expressed some misgivings, West served slices of her "Happy Birthday Jesus" cake to 20 first-graders and about five other parents. No one complained, she says.

"I had gotten a legal opinion from the Rutherford Institute saying I was within my rights before I brought the cake to school," West says. "That's Christmas this year, I guess: candy cane frosting and a legal opinion."

"In Denver, a Protestant church responded to the city's decision to drop "Merry Christmas" from public signs by trying to enter a Christmas-themed float in the holiday parade. Supporters picketed the parade and sang Christmas carols after the float was rejected."

And the "Merry Christmas" went back up on the City and County Building...much to the consternation of our rebellious and wimpy Mayor Hinckenlooper.

I dont understand why a Christmas float would be rejected in the first place....

Isnt Christmas really the underlying reason for the holiday season anyhow?

San Diego had an outdoor celebration called Christmas on the Prado. They decided to name it December Nights so they would not offend anyone. Backers pulled out of it because of them trying to take out Christmas. They did have it this year, but it was not as big as it used to be.

It was rejected because the float was created by a church..Faith Bible Chapel...a congregation where many of my fellow church members came from...and where several kids at my church go to school.

They didn't want the real deal....a float representing the truth of Christ...they wanted to accept Santa, Reindeer, and other fluffy additions to the Christmas story.
It was a big deal mainly because the homosexuals wanted a float....and they protested because of the Faith Bible Chapel float. Our mayor decided the homosexuals should have the float and not the Christians. The mayor's concession was that he would put back the "Merry Christmas" sign on the City County Building.
We are not sure what the homosexuals were representing....but we're pretty sure it was not Christmas.
I suppose it was well, how you say, their protest of Christians protesting at their parades.

It's all very surreal to me.

It's the above story which has completely revamped my Christmas viewpoint.
If it's getting down to this petty politicalization of Christmas....I don't need to go the "Parade of Lights." In fact I don't even have to shop or spend money in Denver any more. With Mayor Hinckenlooper as mayor, I hope the entire city falls back down into the earth. Swallowed up by Mayor Hinckenloopers wacky sensibilities.

I can stay home, go skiing, whatever, and know that Jesus' birth means something to me...without getting involved in this idiotic debate over floats, signs, and whether Little Red Riding Hood or a baby doll sits in a manger scene.

You ever start a job and everything is going nicely, and in comes a new owner or manager?

Well, they start passing all kinds of new rules and regulations. Most of them are so they don't get sued. It makes everyone angry, even if the new rules are good.

The ACLU is trying to turn our freedom loving citizens into rule loving citizens. That want to turn us into Europe.

If one kid in some school gets hurt feelings because he don't keep Christmas and everyone else is, the ACLU steps in and cries foul.

They want everyone to suffer.

They have the same mentality with cars. They don't like rich people buying volvo's and surviving a crash with a Geo Metro. It's not fair they say.

They want us all driving Geo's and everyone getting killed.

Whatever.

Let the majority have it celebrations and let it go already.

I was raised in a Seventh Day Adventist like church, we didn't keep Christmas because of the pagan past it has. So I went through school not keeping it, with everyone else doing it.

I had no problems. I didn't cry myself to sleep at night.

Even if I would have, it would have been my problem, not the majorities.

The ACLU is going to keep whittling away at your freedoms until the masses stand up to them.

I hope people do rebell against this political correctness and stand up for their freedoms.

Ya know Whidden,
I find it fascinating that the ACLU can whittle (as you put it) away at our freedoms all the while complaining about the Patriot Act and the actions under John Ashcroft.

I saw a rerun today of the 7/8/04 ACLU debate on the Patriot Act between Gov Bill Owens of Colorado (the governor of my state) and Howard Dean. Owens defending it and Dean attacking it. It was moderated by the executive director of the ACLU. The executive director of the ACLU made scathing remarks about the Patriot Act and John Ashcroft.

My take on this is that the ACLU considers the Bush administration and John Ashcroft to be "Christian." I won't debate whether I believe they are or not, but I know the the ACLU believe them to be.

It seems the ACLU is against ANYTHING Christian. It's like their goal in life is to destroy the church. An impossibility, yet they try, nonetheless.

Now if the Patriot Act had occurred during the watch of a Bill Clinton (which was attempted in 1996, but failed) and Janet Reno, it would be a different story. In fact I would be interested in researching whether the ACLU made a peep back in the 90's against such a bill. Obviously someone made a peep, because the bill didn't pass in Congress.

Religious Freedom, that's the key. So if I'm told that I can't celebrate Christmas the same way I've (figuratively speaking) been celebrating for centuries, is that religious freedom???

Is it religious freedom to tell school children they are not allowed to sing Christmas Carols with the word God or Christ in it.

Is it religious freedom to tell a community that they must take down the Nativity that has been displayed for decades on Christmas.

To some extent I understand some businesses taking Christmas out of their advertising and going with holiday instead. Heaven forbid that the ACLU find that one person who is offended and sues that business. But let's be reminded of why they are advertising. They want you to come in an buy a gift for a loved one for yeah you guessed it Christmas. So I'm offended when they preach to me to come in and buy a Christmas present when they can't even say the word Christmas. Sure it's their religious freedom to not have to say the word Christmas and it's my freedom of expression to not buy from them.

You say parents in public schools want to raise their children a certain way and that there is a problem when there is a conflict. So here is what you have, a very few parents dictating that God can not be taught. So they remove God from everything including not teaching about Historical documents when 90% of the children come from Christian or Jewish or Muslim families, all of whom believe in GOD!!!! So is that religious freedom, is it a faulty education?

I believe our public schools should be teaching about all religions and tolerance for those religions. They should be learning why those religions exist. Including Atheism and Agnostic. Or maybe they are afraid that if they are all taught then they would loose people to Religion.

Yes, it is religious freedom to tell PUBLIC school children they are not allowed to sing Christmas Carols with the word God or Christ in it... because maybe not all of the children believe in God or Christ. You have to understand, not everyone believe's what you do, and their beliefs must be taken into consideration as well.

Yes, it is religious freedom to tell a community that they must take down the Nativity that has been displayed for decades on Christmas... if it is front of City Hall.

No one is saying not to celebrate your faith, but in government regulated institutions, we must respect people of all faith's.

Yes, most religions do believe in a God, but not necessarily your God.

I agree that schools would be wise to teach children the origin of different religion's, but not their teachings.

Oh, and check out what those left-wing loonies over at the ACLU did a few years ago:

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ACLU of MA Defends Students Punished for Distributing Candy Canes with Religious Messages

February 21, 2003

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

NORTHAMPTON, MA -- The American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts today asked a federal district court in Springfield to protect the First Amendment rights of high school students who were disciplined by school officials for distributing candy canes with religious messages just before Christmas.

"Students have a right to communicate ideas, religious or otherwise, to other students during their free time, before or after class, in the cafeteria, or elsewhere," said ACLU cooperating attorney Jeffrey Pyle, the main author of a friend-of-the-court brief submitted in the case.

As a high school senior in 1993, Pyle was the plaintiff in a landmark ACLU case that established the free speech rights of secondary school students in the state. Today’s case is the first litigation in Massachusetts involving student free speech since Pyle v. South Hadley School Committee was decided in 1996.

In today’s case, the court is reviewing whether officials at Westfield High School in Western Massachusetts violated the rights of a student-initiated Bible Club by punishing them for handing out handing out candy canes with religious messages attached. The basis for the discipline is a school rule that prohibits the distribution of all literature that is not related to the curriculum.

The students each received a one-day suspension, which school officials agreed not to enforce after they were contacted by the ACLU of Massachusetts. The students subsequently filed a lawsuit asking the court to order to school not to interfere further with their right to hand out religious information.


In legal papers filed today, the ACLU of Massachusetts argued that the school rule interferes with the free speech rights of public high school students in Massachusetts under both state law and the First Amendment, which protects their speech as long as it does not disrupt the educational process. This principle was firmly established in the Pyle case, which concerned various messages on t-shirts worn by then-high school student Jeffrey Pyle and his brother, Jonathan.

Pyle went on to graduate from Trinity College in 1997 and Boston College Law School in 2000. He is now a First Amendment attorney in the Media and Intellectual Property Group at the Boston law firm of Prince, Lobel, Glovsky & Tye. Pyle represents newspapers and magazines throughout New England, including student newspapers such as the Harvard Crimson.

The case is scheduled for a hearing this Tuesday, February 25 in federal district court in Springfield before Judge Frank Freedman.

Source: http://www.aclu.org/StudentsRights/...?ID=11876&c=159
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How could they, those left-wing religion haters!

-HECK!