By Jonathan SchellThe Nation and TomDispatch.comPosted September 25, 2004.
Once we accept that this war has been a terrible mistake, then we have no choice but to withdraw immediately.
Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen, once a supporter of the war in Iraq, has been rethinking his position. The day after Sen. John Kerry's speech at NYU attacking the president's war policies, Cohen wrote, "I still don't think the United States can just pull out of Iraq. But I do think the option is worth discussing."
Well, let's discuss it.
The United States should just pull out of Iraq.
There are many issues in politics that are very complicated. The war in Iraq is not one of them. Common sense in regard to this war rests on two rock-solid pillars:
(1) The United States should never have invaded Iraq.
(2) Now it should set a timetable to withdraw and leave.
These two propositions go together. The litany of reasons why it was wrong to invade Iraq – that there were no weapons of mass destruction in the country, no ties to al Qaeda and only the dimmest prospect of democracy – are the same as the reasons why it is now wrong to remain there.
And in truth, the war would have been an even greater mistake if the reasons given for it had been based on reality – if the weapons of mass destruction and ties to al Qaeda had existed. People don't have to ask themselves today what might have happened if Vice President Cheney had been correct in saying, as he did before the war, that Iraq had "reconstituted its nuclear weapons" and if CIA director George Tenet had also been correct in saying that the sole circumstance in which Saddam might use weapons of mass destruction would be if his power were threatened. Had both men been correct, there might have been a use of weapons of mass destruction against American troops in the Iraq theater, or even on U.S. soil (if the ties to al Qaeda had also been real), and a possible use of nuclear weapons by the United States in retaliation.
How fortunate we are that Cheney, at least, was factually mistaken! That he was wrong is the bright side, if you like, of the current mess. His disastrous factual errors may have saved us from his catastrophic policy errors. Nor has the war brought with it any new justification for itself. On the contrary, it has added fresh reasons for leaving. If the story of the occupation so far – a story of scarcely imaginable incompetence, misfired intentions, collapsing plans, multiplying horrors and steadily growing resistance – teaches a single clear lesson it is that the United States is a radicalizing force in Iraq. The more the United States pursues the goal of a democratic Iraq, the farther it recedes into the distance. The longer the United States stays the course, the worse the actual outcome becomes.
Let there be as orderly a transition as possible, accompanied by as much aid, foreign assistance and general sweetness and light as can be mustered, but the endpoint, complete withdrawal, should be announced in advance, so that everyone in Iraq – from the beheaders and other murderers, to legitimate resisters, to any true democrats who may be on the scene – can know that the responsibility for their country's future is shifting to their shoulders. The outcome, though not in all honesty likely to be pretty, will at any rate be the best one possible. If the people of Iraq slip back into dictatorship, it will be their dictatorship. If they choose civil war, it will be their civil war. And if by some happy miracle they choose democracy, it will be their democracy – the only kind worth having.
Kerry's speech was the beginning "at long last" (his words) of a serious debate in the campaign over the war. The speech was heralded by his charge, a few days before, that George W. Bush lives in a "fantasy world of spin" – the first telling, or even widely audible, phrase that Kerry has used in his entire campaign for president. Bush, indeed, has an audacious personal quality that has somehow served him well so far: full frontal repudiation of facts known to all. Faced with the absence of WMDs in Iraq he once simply said, "We have found the weapons of mass destruction." Faced with a Presidential Daily Brief titled "bin Laden Determined to Strike in the U.S.," he and his spokespersons called it "historical." In his universe, faithfulness to delusion is "consistency." It reached its apogee at the GOP convention, where the president presented a picture of the war in Iraq from which all current facts – the street fighting, the bombing, the kidnappings, the torture, the departing allies – had been removed.
"Staying the course" meant staying in the imaginary world. At the convention, the president, if we are to judge by his sudden dramatic rise in the polls, apparently drew a majority of the country into that world with him. Yet almost immediately thereafter, he sank again in many polls. As of this writing, the polls are in anarchy, showing anything from a double-digit Bush lead to a dead heat. The polling may reflect the confusion of a public groping to deal with its immersion in the imaginary world. Like a movie audience emerging from a feel-good blockbuster onto the icy streets, the public probably cannot help noticing that what is before its eyes is quite different from what was on the screen. The bright and shining lies are always more appealing, at least for a while, than the plain truth. Could the resulting double-vision be the reason for a certain flip-flopping, so to speak, of the public itself?
In his speech, Kerry embraced one of the pillars of common sense, finally declaring that the war was a mistake, saying of the president, "Is he really saying that if we knew there were no imminent threat, no weapons of mass destruction, no ties to al Qaeda, the United States should have invaded Iraq? My answer is no." He did not proceed, however, to the necessary corollary, that withdrawal is necessary, though he hinted at it. Each of his concrete proposals – to find allies, train Iraqi police, speed up reconstruction, hold elections – is fine, but none guarantee the success in creating a "viable" Iraq that he still seems to promise.
He has put one foot in the real world, but left the other in the imaginary world, leaving himself open, still, to the flip-flopping charge that Bush immediately leveled against him again. Only 100 percent fantasy will do for the president. But Kerry has at least begun the journey – one as hard as the journey from his service in Vietnam to his protest against it – toward the real. Give him credit for that.
But seriously, its no secret to me why many countries like France and surrounding middle east countries want the US out. Because if we leave now, Iraq could fail and be at a long civil war which is exactly what terrorists and anti US countries want. The last thing terrorists and middle east countries AND France want, is for the US to be successfull at IMPROVING and freeing a middle east country. Its just that simple.
I use logic said this in post #2 : LOL. France isn't even in Iraq, they can't leave.
But seriously, its no secret to me why many countries like France and surrounding middle east countries want the US out. Because if we leave now, Iraq could fail and be at a long civil war which is exactly what terrorists and anti US countries want. The last thing terrorists and middle east countries AND France want, is for the US to be successfull at IMPROVING and freeing a middle east country. Its just that simple.
It's just that simple? For you I'm sure it is.
Oh and nice touch trying to link terrorists with Middle Eastern coutries (is that all of them or any or one or two) AND France. That's really precise, logical thinking, as aways.
I'm sure a failed Iraq is not what France want. But American could well be giving it to France and the world. Thank you America.
What a joke! You act as if they're not puppets getting their strings pulled! They have no say in anything! They have to run everything they do past their occupiers, even which streets should be one way and who should get a liqour liscence.
Oh and nice touch trying to link terrorists with Middle Eastern coutries (is that all of them or any or one or two) AND France. That's really precise, logical thinking, as aways.
I'm sure a failed Iraq is not what France want. But American could well be giving it to France and the world. Thank you America.
Yes, it is that simple. Wake up.
I didn't link France as a terrorist country. I was just saying France doesn't want to see it happen, ALONG WITH middle eastern countries. Feeling dumber now?
Are you joking? I mean seriously?? A failed Iraq is EXACTLY what France wants to see now. You think France actually wants the US to succeed? They PROTESTED THE DAMN WAR you idiot!!! France would much rather have Saddam in power killing another million Arabs as before. France is pissed, because they are now going to lose millions and millions of dollars because we just screwed up their illegal business with Saddam. They don't really give a crap about millions of enslaved dying Iraqi's. I'm astonished you're too ignorant to see that.
I use logic said this in post #2 : LOL. France isn't even in Iraq, they can't leave.
But seriously, its no secret to me why many countries like France and surrounding middle east countries want the US out. Because if we leave now, Iraq could fail and be at a long civil war which is exactly what terrorists and anti US countries want. The last thing terrorists and middle east countries AND France want, is for the US to be successfull at IMPROVING and freeing a middle east country. Its just that simple.
Geez mate, you seriously need to be reset! You already failed!! Situation in Iraq is worst than civil war!
France wants a civil war in Iraq?!? France wants US to fail?! Sure baby. And France want also more terrorism attacks, and droughts and storms on the usa. What else?!?!
Is your fanatism motivated by our hope to see Kerry win the elections?
Now, to be pragmatic, I am not sure that pulling out troops will be the best option, even if they are not very efficient and stay in camps as soon as night falls....
PS: The article is written by a real US guy, not a French!!!
Frenchfries or JY,
Can you please give us (Americans) a couple reasons why, as you state above, France wants Kerry to win?
I think we would all like to hear this perspective from someone who lives there.
I mean real concrete reasons and not the rhetorical, "because we hate Bush". That talk doesn't fly as a reason to change a leader.
Geez mate, you seriously need to be reset! You already failed!! Situation in Iraq is worst than civil war!
France wants a civil war in Iraq?!? France wants US to fail?! Sure baby. And France want also more terrorism attacks, and droughts and storms on the usa. What else?!?!
Is your fanatism motivated by our hope to see Kerry win the elections?
Now, to be pragmatic, I am not sure that pulling out troops will be the best option, even if they are not very efficient and stay in camps as soon as night falls....
PS: The article is written by a real US guy, not a French!!!
Kerry's gonne lose. Accept it and don't cry too much.
How in the world can you claim Iraq failed?? Because there are some insurgents from other countries dying at ods of 50 - 1?? No wonder your country never won a war.
Yep. Not one doubt in my mind France would love, LOVE to see ther US fail. You've nothing to gain and everything to win from it. I can even tell you feel that way, just by your last post. You might put on a deceiving mask for the others on this site, but not me. I see through it.
Kerry's gonne lose. Accept it and don't cry too much.
How in the world can you claim Iraq failed?? Because there are some insurgents from other countries dying at ods of 50 - 1?? No wonder your country never won a war.
Yep. Not one doubt in my mind France would love, LOVE to see ther US fail. You've nothing to gain and everything to win from it. I can even tell you feel that way, just by your last post. You might put on a deceiving mask for the others on this site, but not me. I see through it.
If Kerry wins, thinsg can only go better. If Bush wins, we will have more jokes in the pub to laugh at!
Regarding Iraq, I wouldn't call this mess a victory...Once again, all you do is accusing others of your problems or cracking crap on them: French, Europeans, Democrats, Muslims , Unpatriots,...
Definitely not the right way to solve problems.
Regarding France, I have good news for you: the next guy likely to become President -Mr Sarkozy- next year is Pro USA and Republican...
If Kerry wins, thinsg can only go better. If Bush wins, we will have more jokes in the pub to laugh at!
Regarding Iraq, I wouldn't call this mess a victory...Once again, all you do is accusing others of your problems or cracking crap on them: French, Europeans, Democrats, Muslims , Unpatriots,...
Definitely not the right way to solve problems.
Regarding France, I have good news for you: the next guy likely to become President -Mr Sarkozy- next year is Pro USA and Republican...
So how can things only get better if Kerry wins?? Oh, ok, you mean for France.
How am I accusing others of our problems? The 'problems' right now, in Iraq are 100% all from terrorists. If it wasn't for their prejudicial effort against westerners, then things would be completely fine. Notice, how terrorists (oops, freedom fighters of the Iraqi people) didn't do a damn thing against Saddam to save any people when 50X more were dying. Where were they against Saddam when he invaded and slaughtered in Kuwait? Whats their excuse, he was too powerful for them?? That clearly makes no sense for an excuse because we easily defeated Saddam ,and NOW they are fighting. Thats just stupid. So logically........one can only conclude that they are a product of pure racism.
As far as France, hey, I'm sorry, I really am saddened that our countries can't seem to be friends right now. But I think if you really were fair, you'd step up and admit that your country cast the first stone. We fricken asked you, invited you to be part of a coalition to do this. Yeah, obviously thats our intentions to steal oil, when we ask other countries to join us. Not only did your country turn down the offer (which I would have been fine with) but you violently and relentlessly protested. Even more than just protested, then extreme bias erupted. France has done nothing but do everything to stop it from happening. Stiring up hatred, showing no apreciation whatesover. Done nothing but criticize everything we do. Conspiracy theories have come out of France about Bush and the US. Attacks and bombings against American businesses. Where is all of this hatred comign from and why?? This is the crap that pisses me off. How can you think this is fair. When has the US ever treated France so bad? I blame whoever does nothign to help, and only unfairly criticizes with nothing to offer except negative de-construction.
frenchfries said this in post #7 :
France wants a civil war in Iraq?!? France wants US to fail?! Sure baby. And France want also more terrorism attacks, and droughts and storms on the usa. What else?!?!
80% of participants in a Russian poll on the war in Iraq expressed the hope that Iraq would triumph over the US-led coalition. Only 20% hoped for a US victory. The poll was held live on the TVS channel's Itogi analytical programme yesterday. In all, 28,026 people phoned in to answer the question: 'Who do you want to win?'
80% of participants in a Russian poll on the war in Iraq expressed the hope that Iraq would triumph over the US-led coalition. Only 20% hoped for a US victory. The poll was held live on the TVS channel's Itogi analytical programme yesterday. In all, 28,026 people phoned in to answer the question: 'Who do you want to win?'
Yeah, I'm sure France is completely different than Russians opinion.
You are right:
We have very little in common with Russians. Different religion, different language, different alphabet and different way of thinking.
No need to say that what do in Chechenya is absolutely disgusting.
This said, this russian poll is not surprising: do not forget that they were brainwashed against the USA, that they lost the cold war and now blame you of beeing responsible of their troubles.
Pretending that France and Russia are the same is like
pretending that the USA and Brasil are the same.
So how can things only get better if Kerry wins?? Oh, ok, you mean for France.
How am I accusing others of our problems? The 'problems' right now, in Iraq are 100% all from terrorists. If it wasn't for their prejudicial effort against westerners, then things would be completely fine. Notice, how terrorists (oops, freedom fighters of the Iraqi people) didn't do a damn thing against Saddam to save any people when 50X more were dying. Where were they against Saddam when he invaded and slaughtered in Kuwait? Whats their excuse, he was too powerful for them?? That clearly makes no sense for an excuse because we easily defeated Saddam ,and NOW they are fighting. Thats just stupid. So logically........one can only conclude that they are a product of pure racism.
As far as France, hey, I'm sorry, I really am saddened that our countries can't seem to be friends right now. But I think if you really were fair, you'd step up and admit that your country cast the first stone. We fricken asked you, invited you to be part of a coalition to do this. Yeah, obviously thats our intentions to steal oil, when we ask other countries to join us. Not only did your country turn down the offer (which I would have been fine with) but you violently and relentlessly protested. Even more than just protested, then extreme bias erupted. France has done nothing but do everything to stop it from happening. Stiring up hatred, showing no apreciation whatesover. Done nothing but criticize everything we do. Conspiracy theories have come out of France about Bush and the US. Attacks and bombings against American businesses. Where is all of this hatred comign from and why?? This is the crap that pisses me off. How can you think this is fair. When has the US ever treated France so bad? I blame whoever does nothign to help, and only unfairly criticizes with nothing to offer except negative de-construction.
Uuh, lots to answer there...
Re. accusing others: Sorry, I meant the Republicans, or at least the guys who stick to Bush's opinions. Hard to deny this fact...
100% terrorist in Iraq?! But please explain me why there was no terrorism at all before the war? Does that mean that this war created them? Geez, we warned you about that!!!!
100% Terrorism means that a whole country is in rebellion: it's no more terrorism: it's war.
Nobody ever complained about Saddam beeing removed. Please give us a break with that.
It's the way to do it (mate, 37 children died again yesterday!!What would you say if 37 US children would be Bombed?!?!), and how you did it (without UN approval), and how you justified it (Iraq did 9/11 and got WMD. Lies, lies, and lies again).
You are right to mention that France took it too passionately. I'd love to think it's because France is the country of Human rights, but I also believe that both country got caught in their own game: France saying "no, we won't come", and suddenly becoming a symbol of resistance against US arrogance (With us or against us),
and USA which thought that countries would blindly follow their decisions, but suddenly beeing challenged in their world's leadership.
I never approved the way Mr Villepin managed the situation. Veto Threatening was offensive and all but necessary.
But France was nevertheless right to oppose this unnecessary and stupid war which diverted forces from Al Quaida.
Do not forget that Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11, and that 37 children died yesterday.
Uuh, lots to answer there...
Re. accusing others: Sorry, I meant the Republicans, or at least the guys who stick to Bush's opinions. Hard to deny this fact...
100% terrorist in Iraq?! But please explain me why there was no terrorism at all before the war? Does that mean that this war created them? Geez, we warned you about that!!!!
100% Terrorism means that a whole country is in rebellion: it's no more terrorism: it's war.
Nobody ever complained about Saddam beeing removed. Please give us a break with that.
It's the way to do it (mate, 37 children died again yesterday!!What would you say if 37 US children would be Bombed?!?!), and how you did it (without UN approval), and how you justified it (Iraq did 9/11 and got WMD. Lies, lies, and lies again).
You are right to mention that France took it too passionately. I'd love to think it's because France is the country of Human rights, but I also believe that both country got caught in their own game: France saying "no, we won't come", and suddenly becoming a symbol of resistance against US arrogance (With us or against us),
and USA which thought that countries would blindly follow their decisions, but suddenly beeing challenged in their world's leadership.
I never approved the way Mr Villepin managed the situation. Veto Threatening was offensive and all but necessary.
But France was nevertheless right to oppose this unnecessary and stupid war which diverted forces from Al Quaida.
Do not forget that Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11, and that 37 children died yesterday.
Well then, how come theres so much terrorism in Iraq now if theres no Al-Queda connection?
Many countries decided not to join. France has stuck itself out like a sore thumb.
Oh please, France, the great Human rights advocate of the world? Do you really want me to list the ways to disprove that?
Yeah, it sucks having to waste so much in Iraq, but after 9/11, we couldn't spare many more lives waiting for France to protect us, being the great Human Rights activist France is.
100% terrorist in Iraq?! But please explain me why there was no terrorism at all before the war? Does that mean that this war created them? Geez, we warned you about that!!!!
100% Terrorism means that a whole country is in rebellion: it's no more terrorism: it's war.
100% of the problems right now in Iraq, are from terrorism. Is that clearer?
You warned us?? France warned us about that?? Why didn't France warn us about 9/11?? Why didn't France warn Russia before 200-300 children just died in their terrorist attack at a school?? Why didn't France warn Madrid about terrorist actions on the railways?? Come France, give us some more warnings, please.
Did this war create terrorists?? Thats funny, you just told me theres no Al-Queda connection in Iraq, yet all we are fighting is terrorists.
No terrorism before the war?? What, are you actually serious?? Need me to list any terrorist actions?
1968: July 23rd – Three members of Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine hijack an El Al plane to Rome
November 22nd – Twelve people were killed at a bombing in the market in Jerusalem
1969-
February 18th An El Al aircraft in Zurich Switzerland was attacked, the copilot was killed
February 21st were killed and eight injured in a bomb blast in Jerusalem
August 29th A TWA 707 was hijacked by Palestinian terrorist to Damascus
September 29th – A TWA plane flying from Rome to Lodi Italy was hijacked to Damascus
November 27th- The El Al office in Athens was attacked. Innnocent bystanders were killed
1970-
February 10th. A bus carrying passengers to an a plane is attacked by Palestinian terrorist at the Munich airport
February 21st- A Swissair plane on a flight to Israel is blown up in mid air by Palestinian terrorists.
April 21st- A bomb explodes aboard a Philippines airliners. All 36 aboard are killed
May 22nd Eight Israeli schoolchildren are killed by Arab terrorist.
September 6th- An attempt is made to hijack four planes. The attempt to hijack an El Al plane fails, while three other succeed. The planes all end up in the Jordanian desert.
1972
January 26th A bomb explodes on a Yugoslav plane killing all but one passenger
May 30th- 24 people are killed at Lod airport by Japanese terrorist recruited by Palestininians
July 21st twenty two bombs go off in downtown Belfas killing 11 people
September 5th – Eleven members of the Israeli Olympic team are killed by Black semtember an arm of the PLO led by Yasir Arafat at the Olympic games in Munich
1973-February 23rd- Israel shoots down a Libyan plane over the Sinai desert fearing it was a flying bomb
March 8th- Two IRA bombs explode in London killing one person and injuring 200
1973- August 5th Five people are killed when a Libyan terrorist group attacks a TWA plane
1974- September 8th Libyan terrorist plant a bomb on board a TWA plane flying from Athens to Rome, all 85 passengers are killed.
November 21st The IRA explodes a series of bombs in Birmingham England- 21 people are killed
1975- September 30th A Hungarian airplane explodes killing all 64 persons on board
1976- January 1st-Eighty-two people are killed aboard a Lebanese plane
June 24th- An Air France plane is hijacked to Uganda. Israeli later stages a daring rescue mission to free the hostages.
1978 –March 12th Thirty seven Israelis are killed on a bus by Palestinian terrorists.
1981- April 19th -Thirteen people were killed and 177 injured in a terrorist attack in Davao Philippines.
1982- August 6th- A kosher restaurant is attacked in Paris killing eight.
1983- April 18th Eighty-three people are killed at the US Embassy in Beirut.
Septermber 29th- A Gulf Air plane explodes killing all 166 people aboard.
October 29th- 241 US Marines are killed in a truck bombing in Beirut by the Islamic Jihad ( controled by Syria)
1984-September 20th- The US embassy in the Beirut is bombed- 15 are killed
1985 June 23rd 345 people are killed when Sikh terrorist explode a bomb aboard an Air India 747
October 7th- The Cruise ship the Achillo Laura was hijacked by Palestinian terrorists
1986- September 5th A Pan Am aircraft is hijacked by Palestinain terrorists. Twenty passengers are killed.
1988- Pan Am flight 103 is blown up over Lockerbie Scotland. All 259 passengers and crew are killed.
1992-
The Israeli embassy in Buenes Aires is bombed and 14 die
1993- February 26th- A bomb explodes in the basement of the World Trade Center in New York- Six die 1,000 are injured.
July 27th- Five are killed in a car bombing in Milan Italy
1995- March 20th 12 people are killed when nerve gas is released in a Tokyo subway.
April 19th- The Murrah Federal office building is destroyed by a bomb in Oklahoma City Oklahoma killing 168.
1998- August 7th – The US embassies in mairobi Kenya and Dar es Salamm Tanzania are bombed.
Well then, how come theres so much terrorism in Iraq now if theres no Al-Queda connection?
Many countries decided not to join. France has stuck itself out like a sore thumb.
Oh please, France, the great Human rights advocate of the world? Do you really want me to list the ways to disprove that?
Yeah, it sucks having to waste so much in Iraq, but after 9/11, we couldn't spare many more lives waiting for France to protect us, being the great Human Rights activist France is.
Exactly. There was NO Al Quaeda before the war in Iraq. They came BECAUSE of the war:
"Fighting Iraq had little to do with fighting the war on terrorism, until we made it (so)," said Richard Clarke, who was a senior White House counter-terrorism official under Bush and President Bill Clinton.
Sorry, but the rest of the post is all confusion and crap. I have the feeling that you want to justify this war because of your religion.
Israel was always under threat of Iraq, no doubts about that. But Israel's problems with Muslims shouldn't justify this war.
Sorry frenchie, but nobody's trying to 'justify' the war to you—what Europist U.S.-haters think has long ceased being factor. That much ought to be crystal clear to you by now.
Even by following your mental path - that's a dark place in there - you should find on your own that, indeed, we are not the problem. Not because we would be "europists US-haters" but because the real problems are now in Iraq, where the mess is increasing every day.
Al Qaeda is strenghtening itself each day that God makes and the danger is growing. "Europists" and their ineffective advices and disagreements will indeed be of no importance in comparison with what is unfolding. Al Qaeda don't care about our opposition in these threads.
My understanding of war is that the aim is to weaken the enemy by all means and eventually defeat him.
Stating the real state of things in this world - to the contrary of what uncle Bush is whimpering on TV - it is definitely not a safer place. Al Qaeda is fueled by the "huge mistake" in Iraq but you guys keep ranting on and on.
I don't even dare to advise you to wake up - in your case we are dealing with coming back from desperate coma.
If and when you Europeans decide that Americans—and there is no core distinction between the administration and the people, despite what you like to believe—are not an entity to be despised and kicked in the shins but rather a powerful force that would like to be on your side, then come back and we can talk. Personally, I am not holding my breath.
Sorry, but the rest of the post is all confusion and crap. I have the feeling that you want to justify this war because of your religion.
Israel was always under threat of Iraq, no doubts about that. But Israel's problems with Muslims shouldn't justify this war.
I'm not at war for religious purposes. Where'd you get that?
So why is this war so different all of a sudden for all of you?? Heres the real answer, and NONE of you can ADMIT IT!!!
: Because, its the US.
So many people have gotten so much biased now against the US, you can't even justify how you single the US out. Thats all it is, you're singling us out. You are hiolding the US to a standard, that you hold no one else to. PLain and simple. You make excuses for Saddam to stay in power, and then you say the US is wrong and illegal. "Holy fricking wow". Thats all I can say.
"Fighting Iraq had little to do with fighting the war on terrorism, until we made it (so)," said Richard Clarke, who was a senior White House counter-terrorism official under Bush and President Bill Clinton.
Yep, terrorists are coming to Iraq, and its all part of the racism, racism incited from many countries. Countries that don't want to help, but would rather watch and hope the US fail, even at the cost of innocent lives. Countries who's people promote to the world, that the US is wrong, and just taking over and stealing oil, getting some Arabs so fearful and worked up, that they decide 'something must be done to stop the great Satan that we are hearing so much about'. So more hatred and prejucice is spread, and some more people join terrorist organizations and come on over to fight and take innocent lives. Countries that feed and feed and feed this type of message COuntries like France.
And knowing myself that many terrorists come from ideology such as this, the irony is that you say how the US has increased terrorism, when in relaity, its peopel like you who cause it, from your messages you send out. You'd promote the message that the US has never done anything good, its an evil country that just wants to take oil and kill innocent Iraqis and Arabs. Thank you sir, for your concern and fairness.
And I already know that you will dispute these claims and try to pass off how I'm ...losing my credability or whatever fits your adgenda. But I know man, I know what I'm saying is right. I know a lot how people work.
And its beautiful man, how you pretend to actually care about Iraqi lives. 'France, the savior and humanitarian of the world'. Finally caring about Iraqi lives......when the US is involved. 'Selective'. 'Prejudice'. Get used to those words. Its what you are.
I don't mind you abstaining from the war, but I just want you to be a man and admit, that you suddenly care about the loss of Iraqi lives, because its the US involved. Be a man, admit it. I challenge you, oh great person of the 'Humanitarian Savior of the World' country.
Heres the real funny thing. If France had decided to go into Iraq, or go into Korea or whewrever else theres a real problem I sure as hell NEVER would have been so cruel and unsupportive and destructive to your country as you and your mates have been to mine. THAT shows me, who's biased/prejudiced, and who's not. And I'm proud of myself, that I dont have those same personality traits as you do.
Even by following your mental path - that's a dark place in there - you should find on your own that, indeed, we are not the problem. Not because we would be "europists US-haters" but because the real problems are now in Iraq, where the mess is increasing every day.
Al Qaeda is strenghtening itself each day that God makes and the danger is growing. "Europists" and their ineffective advices and disagreements will indeed be of no importance in comparison with what is unfolding. Al Qaeda don't care about our opposition in these threads.
My understanding of war is that the aim is to weaken the enemy by all means and eventually defeat him.
Stating the real state of things in this world - to the contrary of what uncle Bush is whimpering on TV - it is definitely not a safer place. Al Qaeda is fueled by the "huge mistake" in Iraq but you guys keep ranting on and on.
I don't even dare to advise you to wake up - in your case we are dealing with coming back from desperate coma.
To wake up? To wake up?? And do what, bow to what terrorists demand? Dude, whatever.
.... Countries that don't want to help, but would rather watch and hope the US fail, even at the cost of innocent lives. Countries who's people promote to the world, that the US is wrong, and just taking over and stealing oil, getting some Arabs so fearful and worked up, that they decide 'something must be done to stop the great Satan that we are hearing so much about'. So more hatred and prejucice is spread, and some more people join terrorist organizations and come on over to fight and take innocent lives. Countries that feed and feed and feed this type of message COuntries like France.
And knowing myself that many terrorists come from ideology such as this, the irony is that you say how the US has increased terrorism, when in relaity, its peopel like you who cause it, from your messages you send out . You'd promote the message that the US has never done anything good, its an evil country that just wants to take oil and kill innocent Iraqis and Arabs. Thank you sir, for your concern and fairness.
...
So you can be only right, the world hates you , and, of course, I support terrorism, like France, because you said it.
I am not sure I do appreciate this accusation.
You are disappointing. None of your posts follow any sense of Logic, and all you do is dodging and you avoiding sensitive questions. You simply keep launching blind criticisms: "blablabla France hate USA blablabla Europe against USA blablabla...".
There are new reports coming from the Oil For Food investigation that prior to 9/11, may link funds from Saddam directly to Al- Queada. So I wouldn't get too excited yet folks.
Let's wait for the reports to come out.
So you can be only right, the world hates you , and, of course, I support terrorism, like France, because you said it.
I am not sure I do appreciate this accusation.
You are disappointing. None of your posts follow any sense of Logic, and all you do is dodging and you avoiding sensitive questions. You simply keep launching blind criticisms: "blablabla France hate USA blablabla Europe against USA blablabla...".
Fine, if you think I'm dodging anything, then right here and now, ask me specific direct querstions then. And also, I'd appreciate if you'd answer mine. I numbered them even for you.
Fine, if you think I'm dodging anything, then right here and now, ask me specific direct querstions then. And also, I'd appreciate if you'd answer mine. I numbered them even for you.
1) Where are the WMDs?
2) Where are the evidences of Links between Saddam and 9/11?
3) Why did you Rush the war and did not listen to UN's inspectors??
3) Why did you refuse to ask UN's approval?
4) If the goal has alsways been to eliminate Saddam, why did you justified this war by 9/11, and then after WMD, and then after stabilize middle east, and now to bring democracy?
5) Why are you not welcome in Iraq?
6)Why only the Minister of Oil and not the museums was protected from lootings?
7) Why is there 10 more troops in Iraq than in Afghanistan, where Ben Laden probably hides?
We are searchign for them. Just because they haven't been found doesn't mean they aren't existing. Maybe YOU are satisfied with "If I don't see it, it must not be there" philosophy, I'd choose not to take my chances.
quote:
2) Where are the evidences of Links between Saddam and 9/11?
Direct compelling evidence that he orchestrated it? There won't be enough for you. Thee are ties, they just won't be substantial enough for you. I can understand, your country isn't the one being attacked.
quote:
3) Why did you Rush the war and did not listen to UN's inspectors??
Rush to war??? As I stated numerous times, the US has been dealing unsucessfully with the UN for years, since the 90's, way before Bush. Refusing to let Iraq dictate who can inspect its weapons, the United Nations decided Thursday to withdraw all arms inspectors from Iraq after Saddam Hussein ordered Americans on the U.N. team out immediately.
3) Why did you refuse to ask UN's approval?[/QUOTE]
We asked for the UN's help, they diasagreed. You have no argument here.
quote:
4) If the goal has alsways been to eliminate Saddam, why did you justified this war by 9/11, and then after WMD, and then after stabilize middle east, and now to bring democracy?
It was many reasons. And as I've listed in another thread, I think the final outceom far outweighs the negative aspects.
quote:
5) Why are you not welcome in Iraq?
What are you talking about here? What news source are you hearing?
quote:
6)Why only the Minister of Oil and not the museums was protected from lootings?
I guess we didn't have appreciation for Iraqi art.
Are you really serious? This is a stupid question. Oil wells here can be used as a type of weapon, you may remember the years spent putting out oil well fires. See, right here to me this question you asked just shows me of your biasedness news you've been fed.
7) Why is there 10 more troops in Iraq than in Afghanistan, where Ben Laden probably hides?[/QUOTE]
Troops were shifted. There almost appears more fighting right now in Iraq. Why are more terrorists hell beant on fighting forces in Iraq for WHO, versus helping Osama in Afghanistan?[/QUOTE]
8) How could Iraq be a threat to USA? [/QUOTE] 1)In 1998, Iraq plotted to blow up Radio Free Europe in Prague, a prime US target in the Czech Republic. Jabir Salim, the consul and second secretary at the Iraq embassy in Prague, was the Iraq intelligence officer Saddam Hussein had entrusted with the mission and $150,000 to recruit terrorists who would not be traceable back to Iraq.
This plot was aborted in December 1998 when Salim defected in Prague,revealing details of the plot to the CIA, British MI-6 and Czech intelligence,.
Czech counterintelligence also developed evidence that Ahmad Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani, the official who Saddam dispatched to Prague replace Salim, had continued the efforts to attack this American target.
2) President George Bush. On April 14, 1993, Iraq plotted to assassinate former President George Bush while he was visiting Kuwait. The assassins were Ra'ad al-Asadi and Wali al-Ghazali, two Iraqi nationals, who had been supplied with a sophisticated car bomb. They were captured in Kuwait City and, when interrogated by the FBI, they admitted that they had been recruited by the Iraqi intelligence Service in Basra, Iraq, who provided them with the explosive device four days before Bush arrived in Kuwait.
The CIA concluded with "confidence" that the Iraqi government, at the highest levels, had authorized the recruitment of the assassins.
3) Saddam gave sanctuary to Abdul Rahman Yasin, the only indicted conspirator in the 1993 World Trade Center to get away. After helping to mix the explosives, Yasin fled to Baghdad. He remains at large presumably in Iraq.
And don't forget the launching of SCUD missles into Israel, our ally.
I use logic said this in post #34 :
We are searchign for them. Just because they haven't been found doesn't mean they aren't existing. Maybe YOU are satisfied with "If I don't see it, it must not be there" philosophy, I'd choose not to take my chances.
[/I]
And don't forget the launching of SCUD missles into Israel, our ally.
Obviously, you did not read the news. I think the latest reports definitively close the discussion: NO WMD IN IRAQ.
I will come back on all other issues of your post (such as 6. Paul Bremer confirmed yesterday that they did a huge mistake. What you judge stupid is nothing else than the history of the beginning of the Civilisation: Babylon.
All money in the world couldn't buy what was stolen) but nevertheless agree with one point : Israel plays a major role in this war.
Obviously, you did not read the news. I think the latest reports definitively close the discussion: NO WMD IN IRAQ.
I will come back on all other issues of your post (such as 6. Paul Bremer confirmed yesterday that they did a huge mistake. What you judge stupid is nothing else than the history of the beginning of the Civilisation: Babylon.
All money in the world couldn't buy what was stolen) but nevertheless agree with one point : Israel plays a major role in this war.
1) Answered yesterday. Frhter denies from your part would be ...illogical.
2) Please show me these evidences. I dare you!
3) The reports proved that Saddam got rid of WMD 10 (TEN!) years ago. Whydid he got rid of them , and why no new plantsgot created?! Thanks to "useless" UN...
4) ?! Can't figure out. What is so positive in Iraq?!?
5) Whree is the population support, the cheering crowd, the flowers, the liberation atmosphere?Face it: they want you to go back home, they don't welcome you and are also not thankful. Go figure why...
6) Mate. I am not talking about Iraqis' art. I am talking about the very beginning of civilzations.
I am talking about culture and arts which survived centuries, but did not survive your president.
Where the hell do you think agriculture, Irrigation, cities, litterature, writings, arts, politics, mathematics, all those things that you consider writings, are coming from?
you call Iraqis ' art is PRICELESS because it's the memory of the world. SHAME!!
7) Excuses, excuses, excuses. All are good, but none are available. Ben Laden is still laughing of your president's leadership.
8) Quoting the Cia is simply not relevant. They showed the world how effective they are. ..How the hell Iraq could be a threat, when this country could not defend itself or simply attack it's neighbourghood, such as Israel?!? BE LOGICAL!
This said, I appreciated the time you spent to answer those questions.