If liberated, why aren't they really FREE then?

Post-9/11 Era Forum

To choose to become a religious state? Now that Saddam is gone, if the "will of the people" is to become a religious state, like Iran, so be it.

Ari Fleischer coming on and saying "We don't want them to become a religious state, like Iran", means that they are not TRULY free to choose their own destiny.

If I was an Iraqi, that comment by Fleischer would make me want to become a religious state, just to piss Bush off...

OK, but what does "We'd prefer..." have to do with their right to choose what THEY'D prefer?

**** Hi and welcome to the Catch 22 show! ****

Sing it loud and proud America wants "liberation" and "democracy" for Iraq!

Hold on a minute! You just hold on for one moment there, buddy. Democracy might mean an Islamic Nation!?

Dam*n! That could well be the outcome. And thinking about it, wasn't that the very reason the US ALLOWED Saddam access to his gunships and planes so he could butcher quarter of a million Shias in 1991?

I think it is! Oh well, someone call up the CIA - we have a democracy to impose!

I think the point about them not becoming a religious state is that a Shiat government would probably not be very tolerant of others who are in the minority - resulting in oppression of Sunni, Kurds, christians et al.

Have you ever heard of the concept of tyranny of the majority?

This is one of the reasons why our founding fathers built a government which:

- Does not impose religion uon the populus.

- Is not a democracy, but a federated republic.

- Elects the president using the electoral college.

And so on....

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the Iraqi people, as individuals, would be best served by a government based on similar principles. Not a carbon copy of our government, but at least one that gives ALL Iraqis freedom.

DaveDom, are you by chance the homo-sexual webcam lover of Preston Likely?

What good is getting the majority if you can't impose on the minority? That's why U.S. culture and life is going down the tubes! The minority gets more consideration than the majority in many cases...

I'm voting for an Islamic state, if only to teach Bush a lesson.

Anyone any idea what life is like in Iran. Apart from them being evil (according to Bush that is ) anyone know if life in Iraq would be better for Iraqis under a similar government.

NothingSacred,

You sound just like that man you supposedly hate.
Your aggressive spiteful attitude is exactly what our enemies want. You have succumbed to terrorism. How did you get to this point? Pure Hatred with no respect for mankind.

I don't know how life is in Iran. I know this, just like the USSR, a segment of the population loves it, another segment doesn't care and another segment hates it. So the people who love it, are they wrong for wanting it? I'm close to a number of people from the old USSR, that "Evil Empire" that SENILE, Old Ronnie Reagan railed against, some hated it and are glad that it's done, near as many others hate Gorbachev for ruining the country they loved and where proud of? So what can I say, living as far away from Iran as I do? That's why I don't want my country imposing regimes and life-styles on anybody.

USA1? No respect for Mankind...That's the USA's attitude. If the USA had respect, they wouldn't be running around the world trying to force feed American culture and attitudes on everybody.

NothingSacred,
You are from the US too so, you are part of it. Like it or not.
You don't vote so your points of view are irrelevant.

Once again people get lost in semantic nuances - what is freedom? what is what? etc.

Let's plod slow and steady - the steady is more important than the speed - towards helping the Iraqi's establish a decent legal framework and constitution that would protect most of the commonly accepted rights and norms of individuals and groups within society.

Don't bark about the "freedom" to oppress minorities, or the "democracy" of electing new dictators.

The establishment of a decent framework in Iraq is what the "anti-war" liberals should be spending their energies on - not bashing the evil US. You are missing an opportunity to really help a cause that is worthy. If the cause fails, and we gat another nasty dictatorship, it will just lead to more strife and suffering. There will be plenty of that to go around anyway during this process.

Or do you need the pain and strife and suffering of others to give your lives meaning? Can you work pro-actively? Or do you prefer complaining about evil conspiracies after the fact?

The suffering and the risks are real. What are you gonna do about it?

FU USA1! I haven't missed an opportunity to vote in 20+ years...and I'm not part of any of this BS. I'm just working toward the ouster of DICK HEAD, A-Hole Bush in 2004.

And Charles? Don't keep using that MISCONCEPTION that Anti-War=Liberals, because that's not true, because as a pragmatist and an anti-ideologue, I hate liberals as much as I hate conservatives. I oppose the war purely on pragmatic reasons, the idea that people are being killed doesn't even enter the equation for me, therefore you can't pin "bleeding heart" on me.

I'm sick of the whole thing. (The Arab world)
I'm sick of seeing throngs of hysterical people in their streets saying "death to America" while they take our food and money.

I'm sick of them hating us for the First Class education they come over here to get and then tell us they hate us.

Let them build their own friggin' society. I can't wait until we don't depend on their oil. It's about the only thing they have to offer. (Surely isn't tourism. Who'd want to take a vacation in the land of the people who hate American's?)

We should use our money over here to kick out the non-citizens, close the borders, and send them on their way to live in a two or three room hovel.

Hate American's they say? Ha!!!! that is the biggest joke on us. It's Israel they hate. They can't stand to have Jewish blood on "their" side of the world.

You don't believe me? Listen and you don't even have to listen carefully. It's been about Israel since Israel decided it was time for them to have a little place in this world.

The Arab World...the largest bunch of hypocrites to walk the Earth!

They are just angry people. If they're not hating Israel or the US they're hating that the sky is blue. The whiniest bunch of people I've NEVER seen in my whole 43 years on this planet and I'm SICK and tired of THEM!

Fine. Go there! (I didn't mean there weren't PLACES in the Arab World I wouldn't want to see. Just not the American hating Arab's)

Uh huh... I read your "What the big old bad American's have done to us poor 'lil' Arab's" post. (Before my very first post on this board)

Don't you think for one minute that if the Arab World pulled together and said to the US... "No more oil until you persuade the Israeli's to pull out of the settlements and let there be a Palestine" that there would be a Palestine? But noooooooo, the hypocrite Arab's take all the oil money and just sit on it and cry like a bunch of babies. They don't even know how to get the price they should for their oil. The US rides around in SUV's! A person with half a brain would re-think how much they should charge for oil. And don't even go there about OPEC. Nothing is written in stone.

As for what news channel I watch... it's not the brand the Arab World watches. Don't you think for one minute they aren't watching anit-American slanted news.

I didn't start to feel this hatred for the Arab's until just a few weeks ago. After the fall of Bagdad, the long suffering Arab's started to whine again. Now that they don't have Saddam to blame, they've got to blame somebody and I'm sick of it!!!!

You say the U.S. has sponsered this and that... and that's why they hate us. Well I've got news for you. They sponsor the terrorist's and their religeous fanatism outright breed's terroist's.
Hatred can now go both ways. That's fine. If terrorism is the only way they can fight, so be it. All is fair in Love and War... Part of the Pentagon and Two World Trade Center's for them and Two Countries for us. If that's the way they want it. That's what they'll get. If they think the price of fighting that way is fair, let the games begin.

I'm curious as to why you start why the Arab's hate us only in 1948? Is that where history began? I don't think so. There were the Brit's before us. Once the Brit's left...oh, now who to blame...

Another thing...why in the world does it seem like you think the American's have only just started using their military capabilities just recently? For heavens sake, over 200 years ago, we wiped out the Native American Indian from the U.S. from the get-go for no other reason than we wanted their land and, of course, we dropped two A-Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, killing way more people in 1945 in two days then we have other people's. Japan started it with Pearl Harbor and we finished it.

I don't think there is any doubt about how I feel in this matter. They have pushed me past the point of caring what the hell happens to them any longer. Until I stop hearing the Arab World whine while they take our food and money, I'm pretty sure I'm going to feel as negatively about them as they do about us. And yes, I mean US and THEM. If you are an Arab, living in the U.S., you are U.S., because... haven't you heard....THEY don't think Arab's (Iraqi's, Iranian's etc.) who have lived in the U.S. are part of THEM any longer. Apparently, Middle Easterner's that have been living in the U.S. are now "CONTAMINATED" and are no longer fit to be equals in the Mildde Eastern Country of their birth.

PS: No, I'm not Jewish or Christian. In fact, I don't believe at all. I feel like a visitor, watching the episode of "Star Trek" where the last two surviving people of their planet fight to the death. Their difference...One's face is white on one side, the other's face black on the mirror image side and all they did to the bitter end was blame-blame-blame. Not a thing was accompished except their extinction.

this was for the muslims part, for the others: http://www.nowar.tchacheurs.com/why_en.html

About the oil: who is against US ? not those who control oil, but people, the citizens .....

And about OPEC: now US will control it ........

that's what I'm saying: fight the root cause ..... why they believe that ? lack of education, poverty, illiterate, .....

quote:

You say the U.S. has sponsered this and that... and that's why they hate us. Well I've got news for you. They sponsor the terrorist's and their religeous fanatism outright breed's terroist's. Hatred can now go both ways. That's fine. If terrorism is the only way they can fight, so be it. All is fair in Love and War... Part of the Pentagon and Two World Trade Center's for them and Two Countries for us. If that's the way they want it. That's what they'll get. If they think the price of fighting that way is fair, let the games begin.

again, a nice way of thinking

quote:

THEY don't think Arab's (Iraqi's, Iranian's etc.) who have lived in the U.S. are part of THEM any longer. Apparently, Middle Easterner's that have been living in the U.S. are now "CONTAMINATED" and are no longer fit to be equals in the Mildde Eastern Country of their birth.

you should educate yourself a little bit more ......

About Iraq, what you call CONTAMINATED is those who comeback in the country as the leaders - with their own army trained by US, armed by US - and has been financed by US gov for a long time but did nothing for them except going on Fox News and others craps channel. They are US gov puppets ....
You should check at their resume, it worth a look ....

that's those they don't like .....

From my experience, I can tell you that your above sentence is completely wrong .......

quote:

Not a thing was accompished except their extinction

extinction ? because they have other worth/value then yours you call them worthless ? what a nice way of thinking, for them and lot of others there is not only technology, money, there is the faith.

Look who started to stop the looting in Iraq, and how ......

Nowar, This will be my last post to you. Why you would want to try and give me an unbiased education and then send me a link to YOUR website is really insane.

it's your choice ....


for the link to my web site, if you have read you would have noticed that I give the link to the original which contains more on the US foreign policy then what is on my site .....

The way I work is: whenever someone post something or give one link to a document, I try by myself to find other doc/articles to validate or invalidate what has been posted.
But at least I question myself about these.
If you have read my so many posts - I know there are a lot - you would have noticed that I always give my sources and use docs/articles to support what I'm saying ......

hey WishMaker
watch wat you say about arabs..they are mostly good people, i got alot of arab friends who maybe dont like our government but i am american n i am close to them so obviously they are not all american-haters! all you know is what you see on tv (people buring the american flag n protesting against america) how do you generalize all arabs as american-haters based on this???

besides the media tells them that america is evil and that america hates arabs so if they did hate all americans it wouldnt really be their fault, they only know what their governments and media allow them to know.

If you go around like I HATE THE ARAB WORLD well then i dont really blame them if they want to hate you n want to kill you!

a

i agree. the real point is the arab world has been fed propaganda, things have been completely made up, and there's no 'other side' of the story over there. those people have been told what they should think about the west, and they have no choice when the 'facts' that are used to support this hate are usually either completely manipulated or actually just made up.

arabs are intelligent people, and it pisses me off to no end that they've been screwed by their governments and the extremist islamic 'clerics' who only want war against 'the infidels.' **** those people to hell.
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Ya the media was one of Saddam's biggest tools to control his people. Notice that some of the first targets that the coalition destroyed were radio and tv stations, not just because it stopped Saddam communicating with the rest of the government and army officials but because it took away one of the important links to his people.