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Posted by: Merkava

I've come to realize lately that all the Anti-zionists of this board have conceded defeat as far as arguing the facts go - and now they try to justify their hate for Israel by using Anti-zionist Jewish groups such as Neturei Karta.

Well, lets examine Neturei Karta, shall we?

Jews who criticize or oppose Zionism are usually Orthodox and maintain that Israel can only be regained miraculously. They view the present state as a blasphemous human attempt to usurp G_d's role, and they work to dismantle Israel. However, unlike many gentile anti_Zionists, they firmly believe in the Jewish right to Israel, but only at that future time of redemption. The best_known of the religious anti_Zionists are the Neturei Karta.

Let it be known, Anti-Zionist Jewish groups only hate Israel because of their religious beliefs, they could care less about the Palestinians.

But that doesn't matter to the average Anti-zionist, because the enemy of his enemy, is his friend.

Now, where does Neturei Karta go wrong? Lets find out:

quote:
The anti-Zionist argument is twofold: (1) since our exile from the Land of Israel was a divinely-imposed punishment for our sins, we cannot act on our own initiative to return to the Land; and (2) the Talmud (Ketubot 111a) explicitly prohibits us from taking unilateral action to end the exile and promises a great slaughter of the Jewish people if we disobey (they thus argue that the Holocaust was a judgement by G-d against Zionism).

With regard to (1), it is informative to compare the Roman exile with the Babylonian exile, which was also a punishment for our sins (see, for example, 2 Chronicles 36). That exile was ended not by open miracles, but by the intervention of King Cyrus of Persia (2 Chronicles 36:22-23). Cyrus defeated the Babylonian Empire in war, took over its territory (including Eretz Yisrael), and issued a decree allowing the Jews to return from exile. Obviously it was G-d who delivered Babylon into Cyrus's hands, a point which Cyrus himself made in his decree; but the same could be said regarding World War I, when the British captured what was then Palestine from the Ottoman Empire and subsequently permitted Jewish immigration to the Land. And while it is true that the first exile had a predetermined length (70 years), whereas the second exile did not, this fact is not relevant to the question of whether mortals can play a role in ending the exile.

The second objection is, in my opinion, a more serious one. The Gemara in Ketubot 111a derives, from the triple mention of the verse "I have bound you in oath, O daughters of Jerusalem" in the Song of Solomon, that G-d bound the Jewish people and the nations of the world with three oaths. The first oath is "shelo ya'alu bachoma", that the Jews should not forcibly "break through the wall" and enter Eretz Yisrael. The second is that the Jews should not rebel against the nations. The third is that the nations of the world should not oppress the Jews too much over the course of the exile. According to Rabbi Zeira, there are three additional oaths which relate to the ultimate redemption. The Gemara concludes with the threat that if Israel violates these oaths, their flesh will be made free like wild animals in the field, i.e. G-d would bring upon them great suffering and physical destruction.

The obvious question, of course, is whether Israel broke through the wall and/or rebelled against the nations. If either is the case, then the anti-Zionists are right.

When the Zionist movement began in the late 19th century, the Ottoman Empire allowed limited Jewish immigration to Palestine. However, around the turn of the century, the ruling Turks grew hostile toward the Jewish immigrants and the native Jewish population, probably because of Zionist political aspirations. They began attacking Jewish settlements in Palestine, such that there was a condition of pikuach nefesh (danger to life), for which cause the entire Torah may be suspended, except for the prohibition of murder, idolatry, and adultery. (Thus no one condemns the Maccabees for rebelling against Greek rule just prior to the first Chanukah, and G-d even confirmed the Maccabees' piety by performing miracles.) The Jews thus sided with the British when World War I broke out, and Britain captured Palestine.

Upon capturing Palestine, the British sought to reward the Jews for their help during the war. They were also motivated by a strong sense of Christian duty to help G-d's people end their long and bitter exile. On 2 November 1917, British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour issued the now-famous Balfour Declaration, which said, "His Majesty's Government views with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use our best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." Later, in 1922, the League of Nations passed the Palestine Mandate, legally authorizing Jewish settlement of Palestine. In short, the Zionist immigrants did not "break through the wall"; indeed, to the extent that Britain complied with the Mandate, there was no wall to break through. Even the illegal immigration which followed Neville Chamberlain's 1939 White Paper, which severely curtailed Jewish immigration to Palestine, can be justified on the grounds of pikuach nefesh, because the Holocaust was just getting under way.

The real nuts and bolts, however, was U.N. Resolution 181, passed in 1947, which called for the partition of Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state. Since Britain had ceded its authority in Palestine to the U.N. earlier in the year, the U.N. had the unquestionable right to partition the territory. Israel's declaration of independence on May 14, 1948, was thus not an act of rebellion against the nations, since the declaration was made with the consent of the nations governing Eretz Yisrael.

The anti-Zionists have a somewhat stronger argument regarding the land Israel captured in the 1948 and 1967 wars. A case could be made that Israel was using force to reoccupy the Land, which is precisely what is forbidden in Ketubot 111a. But that is not what happened. Israel was in fact using force to repulse armed attacks against the nascent Jewish state (which, as noted above, had every right to exist in the land it then had). The Israeli counterattacks were for the sake of driving out the Arab armies, not for the sake of settling the land. And even if Ketubot 111a were applicable, it would have been suspended on the grounds of pikuach nefesh. After the wars, Israel's control of the captured territory was a fait accompli, so there was no reason that the Jews should be prohibited from settling it.

As for the Holocaust, it is noteworthy that the Nazis never reached the shores of Palestine. Each and every Jew who immigrated to Palestine was spared the death camps, whereas those who stayed behind - whether by choice or because of the 1939 White Paper - were forced to endure unspeakable horrors, with six million of them dying. If the Holocaust was a divine judgement against anyone, it clearly was not the Zionists. (I don't think it was a judgement at all. For more on this subject, read my article on why bad things happen to good people.)

Interestingly, Ketubot 111a actually necessitates the restoration of the Jewish state before the Messianic era. The Messiah, as the reader may know, will fight the wars of G-d against the wicked of the earth (see, for instance, Isaiah 11:4). But as the Lubavitcher rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson said often during his lifetime, the Messiah won't know he's the Messiah until Elijah the prophet returns and identifies him as such. In other words, as far as the Messiah knows at the time, he will be rallying the Jewish people in a fight against the nations for control of Eretz Yisrael prior to the Messianic age. He cannot do this for the sake of ending the exile, because that would violate Ketubot 111a. But the only other possible reason to undertake such a war is if there is already a Jewish presence in the Land which is being attacked by the nations.

Indeed, Zechariah 14:1-3 reads, "Behold, the day of the L-rd cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the L-rd go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle." So the nations of the world will attack Jerusalem, the situation will appear hopeless, and then the Messiah will come. This prophecy could not have been fulfilled before 1967.

There is also the question of why G-d would perform miracles on behalf of blasphemers. At the start of the 1948 war, Israel had no heavy weapons, few light weapons, no Navy, and an Air Force consisting of crop-dusters and single-engine Piper Cubs from which soldiers would throw bombs by hand. (Some months into the war, the Israelis were able to obtain a few military-class aircraft left over from World War II, but by then the war was well under way.) The only thing they had that could stop a tank was a Molotov cocktail thrown with pinpoint accuracy, so as to get inside the tank at precisely the right spot. Armed in this fashion, they faced the combined regular militaries of Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, and Iraq, plus a Saudi unit fighting under the Iraqi flag and the local Palestinian Arab paramilitaries. Egypt and Jordan in particular inherited top-of-the-line weapons from the departing British. The population difference was 40 million to 670,000 in favor of the Arabs. Nearly all the commentators were predicting a quick Arab victory, and the Arab nations themselves used this as a basis for inducing their people to flee to safety, lest they be swept up in the slaughter of the Jews. The anti-Zionists were surely shouting from the housetops about the dire prophecies against those who would violate Ketubot 111a. Despite the vast odds, however, the Israelis pulled off the biggest upset since Chanukah, with many instances of small Israeli units storming heavily-fortified Arab positions, only to find that the Arabs had fled in haste, leaving behind huge amounts of weaponry and supplies, as if something supernatural had scared the living daylights out of them. Good things often befall bad people (and vice versa), but never in miraculous fashion.

The anti-Zionists often point out that the early Zionist leaders were all secular, whereas the Orthodox Jewish leadership opposed the movement. Since I don't know much about the people themselves, I will happily take the anti-Zionists at their word; they're probably right anyway, or at least pretty close. There is no doubt in my mind, for instance, that Theodor Herzl knew little or nothing of Ketubot 111a or pikuach nefesh. But we don't reject an idea just because it comes from an unsavory source. The anti-Zionists will readily grant that the Jehovah's Witnesses are right about the oneness of G-d, despite their many errors on other doctrinal issues. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, so it is perfectly conceivable that the Zionist leaders, despite their secular lifestyle, were nonetheless right about Zionism.

The website http://www.jewsnotzionists.org makes the claim that Adolf Hitler offered to take monetary ransom for the lives of Jews living under his rule, provided that they not immigrate to Palestine, and that the Zionist leadership cruelly rejected the offer, choosing instead to sacrifice their people's blood on the altar of Zionism. This is the only place I have ever read such a claim, but let's take it at face value. Does anyone really believe that Hitler would have kept his word? He was a manic-depressive who consulted astrologers regarding his war tactics and who killed subordinates who questioned his judgement. The kind of person who would kill six million Jews and five million others, just out of pure hate, will have no qualms about lying to further his goals. That ransom money would have gone toward Hitler's war effort, with the result that many more Jews would have been killed.

The claim is also made that the Zionists fomented anti-Semitism in Arab countries, even to the point of bombing a synagogue in Iraq and blaming it on the Iraqis, to induce the local Jews to emigrate to Israel. Since these countries are not paragons of due process of law, we will never know if the Jews who were convicted were actually guilty. But even if they were, that is a black mark against the people themselves, not their ideology.

As I said before, I will not condemn Jewish anti-Zionists for their beliefs. The issues involved are complex, and we humans are prone to error. But error it is, and hundreds of thousands of Jews are needlessly remaining in exile because of it, subject to the whims of whatever anti-Semites live among them and both physically and psychologically powerless to defend themselves against it. Ketubot 111a backs up its prohibitions with the threat of a mass slaughter of the Jewish people if they disobey, yet the act which allegedly violated the prohibitions - Israel's declaration of independence - was followed not by disaster (which seemed certain at the time), but by miraculous deliverance. The redemption is not complete, nor will it be until the Messiah comes; but there is no question that G-d has performed a great kindness to the Jewish people.
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Posted by: Merkava

Lastly, trying to say that Neturei Karta represents Judaism, is like trying to say Al-Queda represents Islam.

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Posted by: DvsBlue

ummm.... I dont believe Al-Queda preach peace, freedom and justice for ALL. I believe a closer analogy would be comparing Al-Queda and Zionism. They both incite hate and violence I would prefer Naturei Karta if i were Jewish...

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Posted by: DvsBlue

ummm.... I dont believe Al-Queda preach peace, freedom and justice for ALL. I believe a closer analogy would be comparing Al-Queda and Zionism. They both incite hate and violence I would prefer Naturei Karta to represent my faith if i were Jewish. At least they take the Torah seriously.... Just a thought

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Posted by: DvsBlue

ummm.... I dont believe Al-Queda preach peace, freedom and justice for ALL. I believe a closer analogy would be comparing Al-Queda and Zionism. They both incite hate and violence I would prefer Naturei Karta to represent my faith if i were Jewish. At least they take the Torah seriously.... Just a thought

I think the above comment was not well thought out what do the rest of you think?

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Posted by: DvsBlue

JUDAISM:

believes in One G-d who revealed the Torah. It affirms Divine Providence and, accordingly, views Jewish exile as a punishment for sin. Redemption may be achieved solely through prayer and penance. Judaism calls upon all Jews to obey the Torah in its entirety including the commandment to be patriotic citizens.

ZIONISM:

rejects the Creator, His Revelation and reward and punishment. Among its fruits are the persecution of the Palestinian people and the spiritual and physical endangering of the Jewish people. It encourages treasonous, dual loyalty among unsuspecting Jews throughout the world. At its root Zionism sees reality as barren and desacralized. It is the antithesis of Torah Judaism.

"There is a vile lie, which stalks the Jewish people across the globe. It is a lie so heinous, so far from the truth, that it can only gain popularity due to the complicity of powerful forces in the "mainstream" media and educational establishment."



"Zionism has spent the past century strategically dispossessing the Palestinian people. It has ignored their just claims and subjected them to persecution, torture and death."

"Judaism is the belief in revelation at Sinai. It is the belief that exile is a punishment for Jewish sins."

"Zionism has for over a century denied Sinaitic revelation. It believes that Jewish exile can be ended by military aggression."

"We are saddened day in and day at the terrible toll of death emanating from the Holy Land. Not one of them would have occurred if Zionism had not unleashed its evil energies upon the world."


NEED I POST MORE?

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Posted by: Merkava

quote:
DvsBlue said this in post #5 :
ummm.... I dont believe Al-Queda preach peace, freedom and justice for ALL. I believe a closer analogy would be comparing Al-Queda and Zionism. They both incite hate and violence I would prefer Naturei Karta to represent my faith if i were Jewish. At least they take the Torah seriously.... Just a thought

I think the above comment was not well thought out what do the rest of you think?


You don't have to repeat yourself 3 times.

Using the Neturei Karta as an example of Jewish thinking is similar to using the Taliban as an example of Islamic thinking, except that there are only about 1000 people who belong to NK. Calling them a minority would be an insult to minorities.
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Posted by: antizionist2004

What about atheist or non-religious anti-zionists such as myself? And don't say I am an isolated case because I know quite a few like me. Did you know a recent JC poll concluded that a staggering 80% of British Jews are against Sharon's policies? And this was taken before the proposed Gaza-pullout.

And NK do not stand alone, here are some interesting websites, some from religious and some from secular Jews.

http://www.jatonyc.org/
http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm
http://www.gush-shalom.org/english/index.html
http://www.eccmei.net/j/orgs.html
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

That fourth link I gave you has plenty of other links that can take you to Jewish websites against Israel.

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Posted by: Arandomguy

regardless, anti-zionist jews are in a minority. i am zionist, but by no means does that mean i agre with sharon's methods. Just as many americans disagree on many bush doctrines.

Believe it or not, zionism and judaism are separate things. Judaism affects peoples views on israel in many many ways. To try to justify the abolitiment of zionism based on the word of a group of zealous anti-zionists is folly. Conversely, to justify zionoism based on its support from the jewish community is also folly. I know im straddling both sides of the issue, but the fact remains that people are free-hinking human beings. Jehovah's witnesses are of similar ilk. I know the following because my dad converted to a witness for about 10 years. Jehovahs witnesses do not believe in the cross, as a symbol. They believe (and are supported by evidence) that jesus was really born in what is 4 BC. They also believe that 'normal' christians are terribly wrong regarding religious law.

My point is that this discussion itself is useless. the Torah, just like the Quran and Bible, is open to interpretation.the entire talmud and gemmorah is discussion and interpretations of text.

please, both sides, stop bantering about which people support what. to each is own.

peace

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Posted by: Sean Kelly

quote:
DvsBlue said this in post #6 :
ZIONISM:

rejects the Creator, His Revelation and reward and punishment. Among its fruits are the persecution of the Palestinian people and the spiritual and physical endangering of the Jewish people. It encourages treasonous, dual loyalty among unsuspecting Jews throughout the world. At its root Zionism sees reality as barren and desacralized. It is the antithesis of Torah Judaism.
(...)
NEED I POST MORE?


Yes please: post more. It would help me a lot if you, an anti-zionist, could re-spin your description of Zionism from their point of view so that I can better understand. As you've described it above, no person in their right mind would say, "hey yeah that sounds like a great Idea - I'm going for it!" What it sounds like is a description from someone full of contempt. So, with all due respect and with only the intent of learning here, I would request that you sum up the same from their perspective, however wrong it may be in your mind, for the benefit of others.
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Posted by: IsraelIs4Ever

quote:
antizionist2004 said this in post #8 :
What about atheist or non-religious anti-zionists such as myself? And don't say I am an isolated case because I know quite a few like me. Did you know a recent JC poll concluded that a staggering 80% of British Jews are against Sharon's policies? And this was taken before the proposed Gaza-pullout.



Here we have AntiJew trying to commit a fraud here. He tries to tie atheist or non-religious anti-zionists with a supposed poll (one he has never actually provided proof of) where supposedly 80% of British Jews are against Sharon's policy as if those 80% are all Jew hating athiest antizionists. Your hatred of Israel isn't about Sharon but the very existance of Israel. Trying to say that therer are quite a few Brits like you by using this poll is a fraud. But even if 100% of British Jew were Jew hating Jews like our very own AntiJew what does that really mean? British Jews account for l1% of all the Jews in the world. This poll means nothing. I still want see proof of this poll antiJew. Why not provide proof of it?
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Posted by: antizionist2004

quote:
Here we have AntiJew trying to commit a fraud here. He tries to tie atheist or non-religious anti-zionists with a supposed poll (one he has never actually provided proof of) where supposedly 80% of British Jews are against Sharon's policy as if those 80% are all Jew hating athiest antizionists. Your hatred of Israel isn't about Sharon but the very existance of Israel. Trying to say that therer are quite a few Brits like you by using this poll is a fraud. But even if 100% of British Jew were Jew hating Jews like our very own AntiJew what does that really mean? British Jews account for l1% of all the Jews in the world. This poll means nothing. I still want see proof of this poll antiJew. Why not provide proof of it?


Firstly, I use this poll to show that there are a lot of Jews that are unhappy with Israel at the moment. This accounts for the majority.

Secondly, its very hard for me to prove that - its a newspaper not a website. However, if you doubt it for what ever reason I'm sure they have a website why don't you find it and email them asking about it. Its called "The Jewish Chronicle."
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Posted by: IsraelIs4Ever

quote:
antizionist2004 said this in post #12 :


Firstly, I use this poll to show that there are a lot of Jews that are unhappy with Israel at the moment. This accounts for the majority.

Secondly, its very hard for me to prove that - its a newspaper not a website. However, if you doubt it for what ever reason I'm sure they have a website why don't you find it and email them asking about it. Its called "The Jewish Chronicle."


No you used the poll to try and con people into thinking there are a lot of Jew haters like you in Britain. That's why you added the bit about the poll to support your statement What about atheist or non-religious anti-zionists such as myself? And don't say I am an isolated case because I know quite a few like me.

You are a bad liar antiJew. At least try and come up with some excuse that is plausible. Now if you are going to quote some poll you should have the decency to provide proof of it instead of tell me to go find it myself. It's your poll, you go find it Chump.
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Posted by: IsraelIs4Ever

Interesting study that was found by the Jewish Chronicle about British antisemitism.

About one in five Britons is moderately anti-Semitic, would be unhappy with a Jewish prime minister and considers that Jews wield too much power, according to a poll published by the Jewish Chronicle in London on Friday.

The poll also reveals that one in seven Britons believes the Holocaust has been exaggerated, while a minority – 37 percent – believe Jews have made a "positive contribution" to British society.

In an interview with the Jewish Chronicle, Home Secretary David Blunkett expressed "deep concern" at the numbers who believe the Holocaust is exaggerated.

He found the result "worrying and disappointing. It means people are prepared to set aside not only the evidence, but the overwhelming emotion that goes with it.

"They delude themselves into believing that the Nazis are not what we know them to be, and this is very depressing."

Lord Greville Janner, chairman of the Holocaust Educational Trust, told the paper it was "tragically sad that in... the greatest anti-Nazi country in the world, there are people who don't believe in the Nazi horrors." But he was surprised that the numbers who believed that Jewish suffering had been exaggerated were "so low, given the anti-Semitic, racist element present in this country."

A spokesman for the Conservative Party, which is led by a Jew, Michael Howard, described the 18% who would be unhappy with a Jewish prime minister as "very sad indeed... Politicians should be judged only on their policies and their party's beliefs. Religion is of no relevance."

And a spokesman for the Commission for Racial Equality said the poll results came as "no surprise at all. We have seen a rise in anti-Semitic feeling."

Israeli analysts, however, took a more positive view of the poll.

Professor Dina Porat, director of Tel Aviv University's Stephen Roth Center for the Study of Anti-Semitism, described the results as "very good," particularly as Britain topped the league for anti-Semitic and violent attacks against people and property for a three-year period in the Nineties.

Professor Robert Wistrich, head of the Hebrew University's Vidal Sassoon Center for the Study of Anti-Semitism, was also sanguine about the results.

Noting that the poll shows between 15% and 20% of Britons have some prejudice against Jews, he said it was "a better result than many Jews might have expected." But he added that if the poll had included a question about Israel, "this would have changed the results radically."

The poll found that working-class pensioners were most likely to harbor anti-Semitic sentiments. Some 24% of 65-plus age group believe Jews have too much influence, compared to 15% in the 25- to 34-year age range.

Despite Holocaust education programs in virtually all schools in Britain, some 19% of 18- to 24-year-old Britons believe the Holocaust is exaggerated, compared to 20% among the over-65s.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...d=1074841785670

You must be one of the 1 in 5 AntiJew. You are at least mildly antisemitic.

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Posted by: antizionist2004

quote:
Now if you are going to quote some poll you should have the decency to provide proof of it instead of tell me to go find it myself. It's your poll, you go find it Chump.


But the difference is, I know it exists because I remember reading it with my own eys. You are the one in doubt so you should find it, I don't have to prove anything to you. As it so happens, I WILL look on their website for it, and if its not there I'll email them to send me the article.

PS: I remember reading that article you posted in the newspaper a while ago, it was basically showing how little a chance Michael Howard has of becoming the next Prime Minister. Luckily, the fact he is Jewish is not actually very well-known he does not publicise it, and stays clear of any debate about the Middle East and rarely comments on it.
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