Zionism Is The Root Problem

Israel & Palestine Forum

Presented by Rabbi Yisroel P. Feldman of Neturei Karta Int.at the rally hosted by the New England Committee to Defend Palestine, to protest the "Boston Celebrates Israel Festival" in Boston, Mass. on Sunday, June 15, 2003


Rabbi Feldman

With God’s help may the words that we speak here today sanctify God’s name and may it bring peace and brotherhood amongst His creations.
A – salaam aleikum


We have come to Boston today to protest the celebration of the founding of the blasphemous and heretical Zionist state taking place here. We represent Torah true Jews who remain loyal to authentic Judaism, who know that the root cause of the conflict and instability plaguing the Middle East, and hence the entire world, is the heresy against G d called Zionism, and the heinous crimes committed in the name of its illegitimate “State of Israel”.


Zionism! An ideology that is antithetical to Judaism, one fomented by unabashed atheists, heretics and even some ostensibly “religious” collaborators who have sold their souls to the irreligious Zionists for money and power.


The founding of the Zionist state is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Torah, which forbids the establishment of a Jewish state and commands Jews to remain in exile until they are released therefrom by G-d himself, without any human intervention, at which time all nations of the world will live together in peace, and serve their Creator in unity.


Two thousand years ago, at the time of the Temple’s destruction, the Jewish people were forbidden by the Creator (Tractate Ketuboth 111a)

To go up en masse to the Holy Land
To rebel against the nations
To in any way attempt to end the exile
Jews faithful to the Torah are enjoined by the Torah to conduct themselves as loyal, upright and grateful citizens in their host countries throughout the world.


The Torah commands us to emulate G-d and to be compassionate. We are forbidden to unlawfully expropriate land, to subjugate or to oppress another people. Therefore we protest and mourn the murder, deportation, subjugation, and oppression of the Palestinian people by the Zionist hooligans who invaded their homeland, in violation of the Torah, and have caused so much needless suffering. The list of their crimes is endless.


The cause of the past, current and, G-d forbid, future suffering is the aforementioned rebellion against G-d. The tragic and seemingly intractable conflict in the Middle East is directly attributable to the wicked actions of the Zionist regime against the indigenous population of Palestine, against whom the Zionists have been waging war for more than a century. Thus, the only solution to bring about peace and harmony is not more war and strife, but rather regime change in historic Palestine! The Torah’s solution to this dilemma would be for the world community to actively work towards the dismantling of the illicit Zionist regime and the restoration of full Palestinian sovereignty over the whole of Palestine. We firmly believe that such a solution would not result in Jews being slaughtered indiscriminately by the Palestinians. In fact, the very existence of the Zionist state endangers Jewish lives because it constitutes an open rebellion against G-d. Only when the Palestinian people return to their homeland as a sovereign nation and only when the scourge of the racist Zionist occupation has been removed from the sacred soil of Palestine will Jews and Arabs once again live in peace and harmony, as they have done for so many centuries, prior to the inception of Zionism some 100 years ago. Only when the Palestinian refugees are allowed to return to their native soil will there be peace in the Holy Land!


It is a hollow mockery and a desecration of everything sacred to Judaism that the Zionist heretics base their specious claims to the Holy Land on the Bible, justifying their mass invasion, colonization, expropriation and displacement of the native inhabitants of Palestine, who, according to the Torah, are entitled to sovereignty over the whole of their native homeland.


By establishing the “state of Israel”, the Zionists have openly rebelled against the will of G-d’s and the laws of the Torah and thereby have caused immense pain and immeasurable suffering to both Jews and non-Jews. At occasions like this where people celebrate the establishment of the state of “Israel”, Torah true Jews lament the invidious attempts by the Zionists to transform Judaism from a religion into a secular, hypernationalistic and fundamentally racist creed and their sinister efforts to uproot the Torah’s teachings from the Jewish people.


We mourn the pernicious effects Zionism has had on the Jewish people and the Holy Land, including the ongoing desecration of the Sabbath, the introduction of immodest dress, and immoral media into Jewish society, and a litany of violations against many of the laws of our faith, not the least of which is the commandment to be compassionate toward our fellow man.


The United Nations acquiesced to the establishment of the Zionist state in the aftermath of World War II with good intentions of providing assistance and shelter to persecuted Jews. Yet Zionism and Israel have been a curse and source of suffering for the Jewish people ever since! Where else have so many Jews died since World War II if not in the Zionist state? All because of the craven ambition of the Zionists for power in their brazen defiance of the teachings and values of Judaism! Anyone with even the slightest knowledge of history and current events knows that the Zionist state has been one of the greatest tragedies for the Jewish people, creating conflict with Muslims and Arabs, with whom Jews have lived in peace and harmony for many centuries throughout the world from Morocco to Iraq, from Casablanca to Baghdad!


Judaism is not Zionism! Judaism is the faith of the Jewish people in G-d and His Torah. Zionism is the racist anti-Jewish ideology of a band of gangsters who managed to deceive so many Jews into thinking that only they can protect Jews from external threats to their existence. These criminals are known to have actively encouraged anti-Jewish feeling throughout the world in order to compel Jews to immigrate to the Zionist state as a safe haven. Need we remind ourselves of what the Zionists did to fool Jews in Yemen, Iraq and Egypt into moving to their state by planting bombs in synagogues, assassinating innocent Jews and beguiling G-d-fearing Jews with their false proclamations that the Messianic era had arrived and that the promised ingathering of the exiles had begun?


Anti-Jewish prejudice is the lifeblood of Zionism! Without it, Zionism could not survive! Zionism seeks to label anyone opposing its policies as “anti-Semitic,” which is utterly false, both logically and factually!


We implore the Jewish people to return to G-d and His Torah, to totally disavow the blatant heresy of Zionism and its so-called “State of Israel”. Repent and return! G-d and his Torah are waiting for you. Only in this manner will G-d stop punishing us. Only with the Jewish people's collective rejection of Zionism will the tragic reports of carnage and terror in the Holy Land cease.


We beseech the Muslim community not to make the tragic mistake of equating Judaism with Zionism. You must know that they are in fact two extreme opposites. Do not accuse the Jewish people of being Zionists. Do not accuse the Jewish people of being your enemies. The fact is that the Jewish people commiserate with your suffering. The Jewish people truly feel your pain. We are totally embarrassed, horrified, and pained by the actions of our wayward brothers. Let us recall our past friendship and let us work to restore it.


We plead with the honorable leaders of the great powers to carefully consider the underlying reasons for the anger and conflict in the Holy Land! It is of the utmost urgency that leaders realize and acknowledge that the true source of this is the injustice committed the creation of a Zionists State!


We who are loyal to our Torah and the teachings of our authentic rabbis throughout history pray and yearn for the speedy and peaceful dismantling of this Zionist State of “Israel”. We anxiously await the day of messianic redemption when the entire world will serve G-d in brotherhood and harmony.


As the prophet Isaiah says (11:9):
“For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the L-rd, as waters cover the sea.”


And as the Psalmist declares that one day all nations will unite in the service of G-d (Psalms 102:23):


“…when the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the L-rd.”
And finally, as Jews each year on Rosh HaShannah express their desire for mankind to recognize the Creator and to worship Him in brotherhood and unity


“…and they will be joined in one united group to do Your will wholeheartedly.” Amen.

Here are some more great Jews:

Adiv Abramson (orthodox Jew): “For believing Jews, Zionism is anathema to our religion, indeed to our very being. Real Jews do not want to take over Palestine. Real Jews wish to live in peace with all peoples, especially our Arab/Muslim cousins. Real Jews commiserate with the suffering of the Palestinian people at the hands of the satanic Zionist Reich.”

Rami Elhanan (father of a victim killed by a suicide bomber): “The suicide bomber was a victim – the same as my girl was. Of that I am sure.”

Derek Tozer (Israeli thinker): "The official policy of the government [of Israel] is unequivocal. Arabs like the Jews in Nazi Germany are officially 'Class B' citizens, a fact which is recorded on their identity cards."


Great find.

As a Palestinian this Rabbi and all at Naturei Karta who share the same logic as many other Muslims, Christians and non-believers will hold a special place in the hearts and minds of all those who long for peace and justice in the holy land. United we are strong and united we will win inshallah. I have e-mailed Naturei Karta expressing my appreciation that authentic torah obiding Jews are speaking out against Zionism and its violent and corruptive nature. I expressed to them my warmest friendship and supoort for their cause in helping to liberate Palestine from the corrupting force of the Jews faith.

I hope you ALL find this article interesting!!!!

From me Salam Shalom PEACE ON EARTH! (FREE PALESTINE!)

Hey antizionist ARE YOU FOLLOWING ME??? HEHE

So, do the Jew hating Islamic fascists differentiate between a zionist child and a Jewish child before blowing them up?

Do Zionists have a "Z" on their forehead or something so that you can tell the difference before killing?

And when Arafat vows to push Israel into the sea...
Does he make allowances for the Jews to be saved from destruction and just vow to murder the zionists?

Hardly. Splitting hairs to justify violence...that's all you are doing DVSBlue.

Yes Arafat may want to see Israel destroyed. But Israel according to even Arafat does not represent Judaism. And for you to claim that I am justifying violence is rediculous. I am promoting peace and understanding and educating Zionists like yourself the imporence of uniting for peace as these Jews are united with the Palestinians for freedom and justice. It seems to me Zionists like yourself do not want to believe in tolerence and understanding and therefore opt for the other "solution" WAR HATRED AND VIOLENCE!

Anyway below is a letter from Yassir Arafat to these peace loving Jews who represent real Judaism. The original letter (YES A COPY OF THE ORIGANAL) can be found at: http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Doc...LettertoNKI.pdf


To: Rabbi Moshe Hirsch
Minister for Jewish Affairs
Palestine Authority, Jerusalem
Yasser Arafat
President of the State of Palestine
Chairman of the Executive Committee of the PLO
President of the Palestinian Authority

Dear Rabbi Hirsch:

Further to our recent telephone discussion, on behalf of myself, the Palestinian
Authority and the people of Palestine I wish to express my deepest thanks to you and all the many Ultra-Orthodox Jews worldwide, both
laymen and rabbis, for their expressions and demonstrations of heartfelt sympathy for the ongoing suffering of the Palestinian people in Palestine at the hands of the Israeli government. No words can express how it makes us feel to know your community has spoken up throughout the world on our behalf.
These expressions are priceless examples of the long-standing and abiding
relationship between Jews and Arabs reaching back hundreds of years, and enable the entire world to see the stark contrast between the eternal and beautiful values of Judaism and those embodied in aggressive Zionism. These demonstrations and expressions are of critical importance in enabling the Palestinian people and Arabs worldwide to see this crucial difference so that everyone understands that the actions of the Israeli state do not reflect anything rooted in the traditions, beliefs and laws of Judaism. This is vital in emphasizing that there is no conflict between Jew and Arab. Again, Rabbi Hirsch, please transmit our best wishes and prayers for true peace and harmony to your entire community worldwide.

Ramallah in: April 23, 2002
Yours truly, and to many Jews who supported us
PALESTINE LIBERATION ORGANIZATION
Palestine National Authority
The President

The only reason I can say I am a zionist, is because I believe the Jews should be afforded the country of Israel. Saying that Israel is not a Jewish state is absurd propaganda.

I want peace as much as you do. As long as Arafat (who is an Egyptian) says things like Israel should be pushed into the sea...
there is going to be bloodshed.

This bloodshed began as soon as Israel became a nation in 1948. The Arabs in the region and those that came from faraway countries waged war on Israel.
And it has been going on since to varying degrees.

I know there are Jews and Palestinians who want peace, but as long as the terrorist groups go into Israel with semtec strapped to their midsections, there will be ramifications to these actions.

The Arabs in the Holy Land were upset with the British for making a deal with the Jews. And this anger exhibits itself in violence and bloodshed by the Palestinians.

The IDF goes out of their way many times to limit the deaths of innocent Palestinians while going after the terrorists. The media is so biased against Israel that it is always blown out of proportion and made to make Israel look like the bad guys. Jenin for instance, the media made the action look like a bloodbath where thousands had died. This was a lie. Only a few hundred died.
This anti-Israel propaganda goes on every day. Besides the United States, the whole world is against Israel.

I would urge your people to stop the bombings and kidnappings...and quite possibly there could be peace.

But I don't see this happening, and alas, there won't be peace in the region without divine intervention.

The whole debate of Zionists and Jews is baloney. Any Jew who is not a Zionist is not a true Jew. Like I said before, when the suicide bombers go into Israel...they bomb indescriminately...they don't think "Jews" and "Zionists."

ITS THE OCCUPATION STUPID!

YOU SAY:

"I would urge your people to stop the bombings and kidnappings...and quite possibly there could be peace."

THE TRUTH IS:

The Israeli army (IDF) routinely shoots Palestinian children in the head, demolish homes, uproot olive groves and other sources of Palestinian income while at the same time reduce Palestinian towns and cities into open air ghettos. These acts of brutality and Zionist supremecy as well as the IDF'S shooting spree has transpired since the 1980s, with a dearth of sustained outcry from the "international community" or the Western media, who do not consider it terrorism.

Imagine however if these same soldiers were German and the children he was they were killing and the houses they were destroying and the land their were stealing were Jewish, would his act then be considered terrorism? Of course!

Or what if these soldiers had been a white southerners in the U.S. and the children they were shooting and the land they were stealing and the lives they were destroying were American black youths? Would the soldier's actions not be considered terrorism? Certainly.

Palestinians boil with rage in the face of this double standard. There can be no doubt that Palestinian children are a sub-human species in the eyes of the West. The Israeli troops can gun them and their parents down with near impunity and the West treats it as business as usual, the "inevitable result of sectarian hostilities."

But when the Palestinians take revenge on the Israelis for these murders, by bombs or others means, suddenly the whole machinery of condemnanion and outrage is brought to bear on the Palestinian killers of Israelis. Everyone is expected to "speak out" and "not be complacent" in the face of the "terror attacks on the Jewish people."

This sly racism informs the media establishment's reporting on the Middle East. Arab blood is cheap. Israeli army terrorism against Palestinians is met with overwhelming complacency in America. When Israelis shed the blood of Arab children, the West shrugs.

Attacks on Jewish or Arab civilians are equally heinous, part of an endless cycle of tragic violence which can only be averted when the Israeli aggressors who have stolen the Palestinians' land and shot thousands of them to death, begin to treat them as human beings with inviolable human rights.

The murder of adult Palestinian civilians and Palestinian children must cease being business as usual. It is state terror pereptrated by the Israeli government and made possible by YOUR American tax dollars, weapons and munitions.

hAVE the courage and integrity to call it terrorism and condemn it in the halls of Congress and the columns you media newspapers as forcefully as you condemn the crimes of Hamas against Jewish civilians. Otherwise our talk of human rights and safety for Israelis is little more than hypocritical RACISM; a cover for Israeli supremacy--concern only for the suffering of a "Master Jewish Race" and not for the native Arab semites. Such behavior is the real "anti-semitism."

DVS there is so much in your posts that is skewed and incorrect, I don’t think I can respond adequately without it being very lengthy.

What is painfully obvious when hearing Palestinians speak of their crisis is why they endure so much hardship. They lay blame squarely at Israel’s feet when initially it was them that started the violence through rejection of compromise and hatred of Jews.

If you want me to post my points I can but I will have to start from the beginning from the 1800’s. Claims of stealing your land were made then and was totally inaccurate. In fact all land acquired was done so legally by the Jews prior to the 1948 war and the violence between your people and theirs over that land started in the 20’s with Arabs killing Jews and Jews fleeing for their lives.

I don’t subscribe to all of Israel’s tactics but you have the common view of events there as most Arabs and Palestinians do. It’s so jaded and one sided, I don’t know how to began with you.

You sound like a Nazi and you should be shot if you think that Zionism is a problem. Israel has helped so many parts of the world with their technology. China gets most of their technology from Israel. Israel has the most fertile land in the region. Israel provides jobs for arabs as well as jews. The US imports most of the fruits and vegetables from Israel because it's all natural. So you tell me, how is Zionism a problem if it helps the world with it's resources?

lol I should be shot? Question who sounds more like the Nazi when you make comments like that? Not going into exports i would like to remind you that the Israel is responsible for the destruction of countless olive groves in Palestine as well as countless farms and fruit compounds, which the Israelis have destroyed thus reducing the average Palestinian into poverty and desperation. Now tell me how is Zionism NOT the problem. Also note that Israel is one of the worlds leading Arms traders in thus promoting violence and war in every corner of our planet. Also while the USA go on attacking Iraq over its ALLEDGED WMD'S Israel holds one of the largest stockpiles of nukes in the world! Now if Zionism is not a problem you tell me what is. If Iraq was a threat to the world and they proved to not have had any WMD's after UN expections what kind of a threat is "Israel" when the very people in power are right wing racist Arab haters who would love nothing more than to see their Arab neighbours reduced to dust!! FACT Zionism has left a trail of destruction behind it and had laid the foundations for more destruction within its path.....

Also note it may supply resources to "other" countries but at whose expense? THE PALESTINIANS this is exploitation and state sponsored slavery! While you destroy everything the Palestinians have in the West Bank and Gaza the acerage Palestinian is forced to work in "Israel" where they are underpaid and treated like second class citizens.... the list goes on.......... I know of a Palestinian farmer whose Oranges are grown and picked in the West Bank.... When they are packed up and ready to go i.e. be exported the Israelis print a "MADE IN ISRAEL" label on it. This only happends if those exporting the goods dont destoy the products Just because they are made by Palestinians. There are many written articles documenting the destruction and defamation of Palestinian products being exported out of "Israel". Sources provided on request!!! NOW STOP THE ZIONIST BULL***T

Listen here, who ever the hell you are......Palestine does not exist. Before 1948, there was nothing in that region. Us Jews built Israel from scratch and made it an international source of development and research. Cures for diseases have come from world renowned doctors and hospitals based in Israel. My father lived an extra 2 years with a brain tumor thanks to medication developed in Israel by an Israeli doctor. I'd like to see you fight that argument. Go ahead!!! My father is no longer here, but that medication is still helping more people around the world with that same tumor. Now that's what I call progress.

Instead of finding differences between the Israelis and the Palestinians, why don't you look at the similarities? The food we eat, the language we speak, the culture itself. Why not co-exist? If the Palestinians and Israelis were to work as a team, we'd be an amazing and powerful country....even more than now.

REFUTING THE ARGUMENT THAT THERE WAS "NOTHING IN THAT REGION"

There are two variations of the theme of "Zionists making the desert bloom" in Zionist literature. One derives from the myth that Palestine was uninhabited, hence a "desolate wasteland" that Zionist colonists settled and developed. A second variation, found in the novels of Leon Uris, would have it that Palestine was once a rich and fertile land, a land, indeed, of milk and honey, but centuries of Arab and Turkish neglect transformed it into "stagnated swamps and eroded hills and rock-filled fields and infertile earth ... a land that lay bleeding and fallow [until] Jews rebuilt it." [Uris, Exodus, pp 216, 266; see also hisHal, pp. 17, 39 et passim.]

Nothing could be further from the truth. A British missionary who visited Palestine in 1859 described its southern coastal area as "a very ocean of wheat." This testimony is confirmed by a British consul in Jerusalem, James Finn, who wrote that "the fields would do credit to English farming." And a German geographer, writing of Palestine's economy during the twenty years preceding Jewish colonization, reported that it had "experienced a remarkable economic upswing" based on agriculture, resulting in a favorable balance of international trade. Even U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, an ardent Zionist, wrote of his visit to Palestine in 1919 that the view from the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem was more beautiful than California and that "all yet say that northern Palestine is far more beautiful" - a quote readers should keep in mind as they note the number of Palestinian locations in northern Palestine destroyed in 1948. This is particularly true of the Jaffa area. Here the famous Jaffa orange groves produced 36 million oranges in 1880, of which 19 million were exported to Europe and elsewhere. [For references on the above quotes, see M. Hallaj's "From Time Immemorial: The Resurrection of a Myth," in The Link, vol. 18, #1.]

Another question if there was "nothing" there before 1948 how were over 400 villages destroyed that year? The fact Israelis cannot accept is that their country is only 50 years old and that the Palestinians were there long long before them and actually have something which we could call a culture. The so called "Culture in "Israel" today has also been stolen from the Palestinians i.e. the food we eat our Music style etc... How can a country and a people with 50 years of history in Palestine actaully have what we can call a culture? And how can 750000 Palestinians forced from their homes in 1948 not constitute a peoples who were in Palestine before 1948? Are you that stupid Rishon77? there are two problems here you are either 12 years old and have no idea what your talking about or you are mentally retarded. And i think i know which one you are

Palestine, ALWAYS consisted of PALESTINIANS. It was inhabited by indigenous Arabs for centuries. In 1914 there were 570,000 Palestinian Arabs in Palestine and 80,000 Palestinian Jews, most of whom had entered Palestine after 1860 [See C. Smith, Palestine and the Arab Israeli Conflict, 1988]

When the reality of these Palestinians could no longer be denied, Zionists resorted to another myth: that the Arab population of Palestine was not made up of indigenous Palestinians but of immigrants from neighboring Arab countries. While some immigration did take place, recent Israeli researchers (e.g., Tom Segev, Benny Morris and Simcha Flapan) have concluded that it never constituted more than 8 percent of the Arab population in 1914. [See S. Flapan, The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, Pantheon Books, 1987; also The Link, vol. 23, #4: "What Happened to Palestine?" by M. Palumbo.]

The denial of Palestinian existence (Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir once told Life magazine "There is no such thing as Palestinians") constitutes what Columbia University Professor Edward Said calls an act of "extended ethnocide", whereby Palestinians are "threatened with death before being permitted birth."

And rishon im sorry to hear about your father May Allah give him mercy and rest his soul..

Since when did China or any other country borrow technology from the Palestinian people? Since when did medical research done by an Palestinian help cure a disease? I'm not saying that Palestinians are not smart people, but you have to give credit where credit is due. I'm sure there are plenty of accomplishments that the Palestinian people developed over the years as well. Why can't we put two heads together and end this conflict. Haven't enough people died so far? Is this what your plans for the future have in store? A future of hatred and separation? I want to know what your plan is to solve this issue. You seem to be a person full of rage. Why don't you use this rage and passion and come up with some sort of idea that helps both sides?

Haha read this pasted article,

In a recent letter (April 29/00) written to National Public Radio (Rev.) G. Simon Harak challenges this myth when it was once again mentioned by Maxine Davis on the radio show "The Savvy Traveler." Below you can read Mr. Harak's letter.

Dear Savvy Traveler,

In her Feature Story "postcard" which is mostly about India, Maxine Davis wrote about her parents' travels, reminiscing, "My parents saw Israel when it was still desert and Japan before cars."

I can understand the part about Japan without cars, but at exactly what point in time did her parents see Israel when it was "still desert?"

It couldn't have been in 1946. That was the year that Walter C. Lowdermilk, Assistant Chief of US Soil Conservation Service, examined Palestine, and compared it to California, except that "the soils of Palestine were uniformly better" [_Palestine's Economic Future: A Review of Progress and Prospects_ (London, UK: Percy Lund Humphries and Co., Ltd., 1946), 19-23.

It couldn't have been in 1945, when Palestine had over 600,000 dunums of land planted with olive trees, producing nearly 80,000 tons of olives, and accounting for 1 percent of the olive oil production for the WORLD [_Statistical Abstract of Palestine, 1944-45_ (Department of Statistics, Government of Palestine), 225], and produced nearly 245,000 tons of vegetables [_A Survey of Palestine_, for the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, Vol.I, 325-26].

It couldn't have been in 1943, when Palestine produced 280,000 tons of fruit, excluding citrus fruits [_Statistical Abstract of Palestine, 1944-45_, 226].

It couldn't have been in 1942, when Palestine produced nearly 305,000 tons of grains and legumes [_A Survey of Palestine_, Vol.I, 320].

It couldn't have been in 1939, when Palestine exported over 15 million cases of citrus fruit [ _A Survey of Palestine_, Vol. 1, 337].

But maybe Ms. Davis's parents went to Israel/Palestine more than 60 years ago. Could it have been "a desert" then, I wonder.

Well, they couldn't have gone in the early 1900s and found a desert, because Moshe Dayan pointed out that "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages . . . There is not one place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population" [_Ha'aretz_ Interview, April 4, 1969_].

It couldn't have been in 1893. That was the year the British Consul advised his government of the value of importing trees from Jaffa to improve production in Australia and South Africa [quoted in Marwan R. Beheiry, "The Agricultural Exports of Southern Palestine, 1885-1914," _Journal of Palestinian Studies_ Vol. 10, No. 4, 1981, p. 67]

It couldn't have been in 1887, when Lawrence Oliphant's visit to the Esdralon Valley prompted him to marvel at the "huge green lake of waving wheat, with its village-crowned mounds rising from it like islands; and it presents one of the most striking pictures of luxuriant fertility which it is possible to conceive" [quoted from Ibrahim Abu-Lughod, ed., _The Transformation of Palestine_ (Chicago, IL: Northwestern Press, 1971), 126].

It couldn't have been any time between 1856 and 1882, because the German geographer Alexander Scholch found that in those years, "Palestine produced a relatively large agricultural surplus which was marketed in neighboring countries," and to Europe [Alexander Scholch, "The Economic Development of Palestine, 1856-1882," _Journal of Palestinian Studies_ Vol 10, No. 3, 1981, 36-58]. And in 1859 a British missionary described the southern coast of Palestine as "a very ocean of wheat," observing that "the fields would do credit to British farming" [quoted from James Reilly, "The Peasantry of Late Ottoman Palestine," _Journal of Palestine Studies_, Vol. 10 No. 4, 1981, p. 84].

It couldn't have been in 1856, when Henry Gillman, the American consul in Jerusalem, suggested that Florida citrus growers could learn from Palestinian grafting techniques [Beheiry, 75-76].

And really, it couldn't have been any time during the 18th or 17th centuries. French economic historian Paul Masson acknowledges that during that time, imports of wheat from Palestine saved France from numerous famines [Beheiry, 67].

Could it have been earlier then? Apparently not.

In 1615, Englishman George Sandys described Palestine as "a land that flows with milk and honey," with "no part empty of delight or profit" [quoted in Richard Bevis, "Making the Desert Bloom: An Historical Picture of Pre-Zionist Palestine," _The Middle East Newsletter_, Vol. 2, Feb.-Mar., 1971, p.4].

In the late 10th century, a visitor wrote, "Palestine is watered by the rains and the dew. Its trees and its ploughed lands do not need artificial irrigation. Palestine is the most fertile of the Syrian provinces" [Guy Le Strange, _Palestine under the Moslems_ (Beirut, Lebanon, Khayat, 1965), 28.]. Before he died in 986 AD, Muqqadisi, who lived in Jerusalem, told of Palestine produce that "was particularly copious and prized: fruit of every kind (olives, figs, grapes, quinces, plums, apples, dates, walnuts, almonds, jujubes and bananas), some of which were exported, and crops for processing (sugarcane, indigo and sumac)" [quoted in Walid Khalidi, _Before Their Diaspora_ (Washington, DC: Institute for Palestine Studies, 1984), 28-29.

It seems, then, that Ms. Davis is "remembering" a "desert" land that never existed.

The point is, of course, that she (and with her, you) are just propagating a Zionist fabrication that the Zionists "made the desert bloom," and so "deserve" the land from which they expelled the Palestinians.

I hope that next time, you will not inadvertently invite us to travel to lands that never existed, and uncritically accept a mythology that underwrites ethnic cleansing.

We travelers need to be more "savvy" than that, don't you agree?*

*Most of this information can be found in Issa Nakhleh, _Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem_ (New York, NY: Intercontinental Books 1991).

Sincerely yours,

(Rev.) G. Simon Harak, S. J. <gsharaksj@hotmail.com>

Baltimore, MD


AND CONSIDER THIS DAMNING QUOTE IN 1891:


Ahad Ha'Am (Russian Jewish thinker): "We abroad are used to believe the Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed ..... But in truth that is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains .... are not cultivated."




Rishon you should review some of your beliefs.

Listen sir,
I'm not going to fight or argue with you on the eve of the jewish new year, Rosh Hashana. It is a very important holiday. All I want is peace and for our people to live together in harmony. That is all.

Peace my brother, peace.....

There is no heat sir. Just relax and go with God my brother. Breath in and breath out....nothing but love and nothing but peace......

What ever. If you can reply intelligently to my evidence, please do so because the whole point of forums is debate, and if not then just accept you were wrong about that particular issue.

You are still confusing church and state as the same thing.

Don't you freakin' realize that 'Palestine' was the name the Romans gave to that province of their empire? That there were no Muslims, and certainly not any Christians at the time 'Palestine' became a Roman garrison? That almost ALL the citizens of Palestine were some sect of Judaism?

You really are idiots. The Jews were ALWAYS in Palestine about as far back as even the Romans could remember. Christians didn't come along for quite some time after the Romans (I think about 30+ years after Joshua Ben Solomon, a.k.a., Jesus, was crucified), and the Muslims didn't even exist until about 500 years more after that. Therefore, even the Christians have more of a claim to Palestine than the Arabs. The Arabs didn't have a nation back then, they lived like nomads in the desert. So how a religion founded by people with no land can claim an ancient Roman province founded and settled by Jews before the recording of time is really beyond me.

Actually it's not. I know exactly why you people are so confused. It's because you can't get your heads out of the Koran and Torah long enough to take a look at what really happened. Especially the Muslims who seem to forget that Palestine and Jews existed at least hundreds of years before they did. You know, maybe that's why Muslims are so angry - they have no past, no great accomplishments, no great nation they can claim they came from - in essence, they have nothing to attribute anything good to because they have never bothered to create something of their own.

I could be wrong - I think like a Roman after all =)

So basically what you're saying is that my grandparents who are Holocaust survivors in their 80's, who have heart conditions, who just buried their son......will have to move back to Lithuania where they originally came from?

Did I say that once? How dare you put words in my mouth. NEVER will I accept the Palestinian right of return it will mean the end of my people's state. PLEASE stick to the topic and debate to the points I ACTUALLY RAISE.

who are "your people" ?

Jews you idiot. Now can you reply to my points or not? Your evading tactics are tiring me out.

i must say, this back and forth thing u 2 r doing is really funny.

Rishon, at first you sounded like a hippee, then you got angry, now u r avoiding questions.
a little advice: if you want to be respected in this forum you MUST know what u r talking about and you MUST be able to back up your claims. INreview is not a shouting match, it is (at least should be) a civil debate.

AZ, im getting a bit confused. true antizionism would accept the right of return as universal law. now, im all for the whole 2 state thing, and i disagree with a great many things that the israelis r doing, but in these forums what i am trying to do is prove, or convince, that israel truly does have a basic right to exist. judging by your 2nd 2 last post, u agree with me.

unlike dvs (I REALLY dislike that guy), az, you seem to know what u are talking about, that's y i enjoy debating with you. But as a fellow jew, I would appreciate it if u looked into the different forms of zionism.

labor, cultural, religious, political, and revisionist are some of the major forms, and it seems to me like you only disagree with the revisionists, as i do. this group was led by ZE'ev Jabotinsky, a militant cahrismatic leader who formed the hagganah, and later the more extremist Irgun. Revisionists wanted to conquer palestine through military might, and through total expulsion of hostile people, who to them were all non-jews.

I htink you would agree with many aspects of the other types of zionism, particularly cultural and maybe labor. look into it, see what you can find, and maybe u will be inspired to change your mind.

then again, maybe not. im out.

Look, this is to all of bastards in this freakin' forum:

I'm an Israeli and proud of it. If you insult my country, you better pray that I don't bump into any one of you on the street. I will live and die for Israel, no matter what it takes. This forum is completely useless because whether you're stating facts or fiction to back up your claims, you're not helping the matter any. I was out there on the gvul ha tzafon (northern border) guarding my country from any a**holes who mess with my country. When the hell have you people ever done. All you do is sit here and type your crap.

Let's see the Palestinians win a gold medal at the Olympics and then we'll talk.

I'm outa here.......

I have a REAL life defending my country.

rishon, i have tears rolling down my eyes, such a beautiful post...

YEAH RIGHT, Israel can lick my balls.

You got no balls. I'd love to see you fight out in the battle field instead of typing your freakin' response. I challenge any one of you either in the battle field or out on the street. You're probably too fat to even get out of your chair.....

When you actually make a difference in the REAL world, then you should be allowed to post a message.

Lol, you made me laugh, thanks.

lol. oh,rishon, you make me laugh.

i returned about a month ago from israel to my home in america. I've been there and seen it. I took a mini-bootcamp, and ive been an economic zionist.
im all for israel.

but, i can tell you hold the stereotypical no-nonsense israeli attitude. let me enlighten you.

first off, challenging sumbody 2 a duel is below stupid. when has brawn truly defeated brains?
**please dont answer this

ok, so you have fought on the gront lines, just like almost every other israeli. And you claim this forum is useless. I completely disagree.

to keep israel safe and existent, it is the duty of those who suport it to argue with the naysayers and the anti-zionists. while you may be defending it physically, ppl like woolfe, sowhat, oneofpeace, israel, and myself are defending it intellectually, which i believe is just as important.

if you have nothing to say, dont say anything at all.

...uh oh...he's gonna be angry...that's what i get for being a common-sense moderate...

Arandomguy, I completely understand your point of view. It's just that when I hear people insulting my country, I get very upset. I'm not as good with words as you guys.....that's why I stick to my Uzi and let the intellectuals debate all they want. I'm glad you support Israel.....we're on the same team buddy.

Rishon77 do you have a split personality?

Also why are you so angry such signs show defeat....

LIE? The only liers here are you guys