Israeli Terrorists, Palestinian Victims and the Masters of PR

Israel & Palestine Forum

"Terrorist" has become a brand name in the grand American PR tradition of Kleenex and Xerox
by Michael A. Hoffman II

Copyright ©2004 by revisionisthistory.org

Think of the name "Palestinian" and what comes to mind? "Terrorism." Conjure the word Israeli and what do you think of? "Victim of terror." The images are searing: skeletal Jerusalem buses with shards of flesh and twisted metal hanging from the twisted wreckage; detailed accounts of the misery and suffering of Israeli families caught in a suicide bombing; graphic photos of the Israeli dead and injured, the funerals, the anguished faces and the heart-breaking weeping of the survivors.

But while these episodic bombings were being inflicted by Palestinian kamikazes, the Israeli military was routinely terrorizing the civilian population of Gaza and slaughtering hundreds of Palestinian civilians. Yet not a cubic centimeter of the scope of this Israeli terrorism was reported in America. For all Americans know, a few dozen Hamas terrorists have died in pinpoint "targeted killings" (assassinations) and a handful of Palestinian civilians have been "regrettably" killed, "caught in a crossfire" or "collaterally damaged" in an "air-strike."

The media's description of the combatants is also instructive. Israeli terrorists are called "troops" and "helicopter pilots" while every member of the Palestinian resistance is a "gunman." In a battle between "troops" and "gunmen" the criminological connotations of the latter will engender automatic sympathy for the former. The casualty figures, which are almost never referenced by the US media, tell another story, however. According to data compiled by Amnesty International, during the whole of 2003, Israeli terrorists ("troops, pilots") killed at least 600 Palestinians, including more than 100 Palestinian children "in random and reckless shooting, shelling and bombings."

In the same period, as a reaction to the Israeli occupation, the Palestinian resistance killed 200 Israelis, including 70 soldiers and 21 children. The Israelis killed almost five times as many children as Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Overall, for every Israeli killed, three Palestinians were killed. There will be those who will say that this is an arithmetic of slaughter that can have no meaningful symmetry; that terrorism on the Palestinian or Israeli side is equally monstrous. But an "equality of monstrosity" is not present in American reporting. The clear impression conveyed by the Establishment media is that most of the monstrosity is on the Palestinian side.

Moreover, if both occupier and occupied are equally monstrous, if both the aggressor who has the means to withdraw and end the conflict, and the victim of occupation who is nearly powerless against a relentless military machine, bear equal guilt and responsibility, what happens to the sacred mythology the West has built around the conflict with Nazi Germany, in which any act of terror committed against German armed forces or German civilians was not only justified as necessary but celebrated as a glorious act of liberation? However much Israelis may be offended by the analogy, the fact is, the Palestinians see their struggle in precisely these terms. As the Arab Knesset member Taleb a-Sana remarked with regard to the Israeli slaughter of Palestinians in May, "What happened in Rafah proves that you don't have to be German to be a Nazi."

If "Jews" in the Warsaw ghetto were entitled to resist the Nazi occupiers by any means at hand, however bloody or indiscriminate, why is this holy Allied doctrine voided when it comes to the Palestinian resistance to Zionist occupation of the Gaza ghetto?

The Israeli public relations (PR) masters have artfully transformed the slow motion genocide against the Palestinians into "the war on terror." This transvaluation is made possible in part because gruesome images of Palestinian children shot in the head or blown to bits by Israelis are seldom plastered across the pages of USA Today or Newsweek, or broadcast on the major American TV networks. On the rare occasion when they are shown, they are depicted only fleetingly.

The operant PR tactic here is amnesia: past Israeli war crimes are virtually never recalled. The mass murder and destruction in Rafah's Tel Sultan neighborhood in May 2004 is not placed in the context of the mass murder and destruction in Jenin in April of 2002. The systemic nature of Israeli war crimes and collective punishment of an entire people is thereby missed and the masses are led to believe in the "accidental" or "unavoidable" (collateral) nature of every Israeli attack on civlians. Israeli crimes appear to have no track record and are perceived as momentary indiscretions rather than policy. The American people have no way of knowing that as a matter of halacha (religious law) the influential chairman of the Yesha rabbinic council, Rabbi Dov Lior, has ruled that "the IDF (Israeli army) are allowed to hurt so-called innocent civilians."

Even when Israeli crimes are mentioned in the news they are often bedecked in ambiguous moral shades of gray and shoulder-shrugging about a "war zone" and the "difficulty in distinguishing civilians from combatants." The larger questions -- of a state's deliberate intent to punish an entire nation of people collectively; of Judaism's injunction to exterminate "Amalek" and its identification of the Arabs with Amalek; along with the propriety of devastating whole cities as a police action against selected perpetrators -- are never asked.

Hundreds of civilians were killed by the US military in the Iraqi city of Falluja last month, ostensibly as part of a search for a few dozen miscreants responsible for the deaths of four US "contractors." But the slaying of hundreds of Arabs does not register on the scale of moral outrage of most Americans. When al-Jazeera attempts to cover the bloodbath with the same level of intensity Fox News accords Israeli casualties, the Arab medium is scorned and derided for its "outrageous propaganda."

"Terrorist" has become a brand name in the grand American PR tradition of Kleenex and Xerox. Branding ensures that it is difficult to think of a generic item without conjuring the name of a particular product intended to dominate the category. The same process has been imposed upon the Middle East, where a terrorist can only be thought of as a Muslim or an Arab.

Public relations determines what is real in America and the Israeli PR machine, aided by their brethren in New York and Hollywood, continues to maintain the hallucination of exclusive Israeli victimhood, even as Arab civilians die at the hands of state-sanctioned terrorists out of all proportion to Israeli casualties. Last year over a hundred Palestinian children were dispatched to early graves by the Israeli armed forces, yet it is only their parents and siblings who bear the stigma of "terrorist." This is the genius of the masters of perusasion -- any delusion can be sold through the wizardry of their PR.

A very powerful article that raises serious questions about the morals of the Israeli Government and its army. Thanks a lot.

One thing though. As a Jew, I can point out to you that the Amelekites cannot possibly be the Arabs because in the Bible it says the entire tribe was wiped out, despite what many extremist Rabbis insist on.

I don’t think there is a finer example of biased reporting as it is in this article posted here. Would you mind posting the supporting link to this article DVS?

What I find here is the same rhetoric from Arabs we’ve heard for years and totally dismissive of some very important facts that brought about all this “oppression and Israeli terrorism” to the Palestinians.

To say that the Palestinians get no media coverage when they are being killed is complete nonsense. Arabs have made their cry quite loud concerning this plight while sitting hypocritically on their thrones killing, oppressing and marring their own and say little to nothing about it whatsoever.

At least in Israel you can get another side of the story. Try doing that in Palestine areas and the only thing you’d get is death.

Since the wall has gone up, suicide bombings have slowed to almost a complete halt. Since it would seem that the only thing Arabs understand is the word “revenge” maybe this will give them a chance to live up to their decree as being the total victims in all this violence over there because the Israelis are “occupying and oppressing” them.

When looking at current conditions, you cannot dismiss the past. It is a vital link to why Palestinians suffer today. After years of rejection and uncompromising, it only served to worsen their plight. Their leadership has been exemplary in bringing them nothing but grief and as usual they point to Israel and the West.

This article is extremely unbalanced and totally lacks any balance when speaking of the vital facts that has cause current conditions we see in that region today.

I think I'm going to be sick! I actually agree with you peace.

Yeah, occassionally you show some light in the tunnel USA1.

Just kidding!

"challenge you to show me one journalist that is able to “freely” report in Palestine areas anything that doesn’t show them in a positive light. Journalists are known for having their cameras taken from them and smashed, being shot at or beaten for showing up in some areas of Palestine by militants. And there is no such existence as “free press” there. Any of their media outlets reporting on militancy there are intimidated or shut down."

It is hard for Palestinians to have the same freedoms and social structures as the Israelis enjoy in Israel seeing as they are under occupation. This means that curfews often hinder those who work in the media from doing their Job properly as well as those working full stop (unemplyment is over 60% in the West Bank and Gaza). Schools are often shut down and University students often complain about the shelling of their Universities. On some occassions students are shot at and killed. This as well as house demolishions, random sniper killings and land confiscation contribute to a very volitile situation in the territories. I believe under the circumstances the Palestinian press are free and if what you say is true and they are not free this is only due to the fact that literally ALL PALESTINIANS ARE NOT FREE!!! They are under occupation and therefore no one is free! Given freedom I am sure the Palestinians will be a model to all other Arab states and many other countries accross the world. Question have you ever been to Palestine? I believe not so what puts you in a position to comment on what goes on in the West Bank and Gaza? As a Palestinian I know all too well our open and friendly culture towards outsiders who have come to the camps journalists, activists etc.... We are a close society where Christians and Muslims are united (as were Palestinian Jews before the Zionism) and have been from the time the Caliph entered Jerusalem in 700AD this fact alone demonstrates a tolerent and peace loving people. Given the chance of freedom and happiness I am sure we can build a country on the foundations which began from the time of the Great Caliph Omar. Your claim that the media in Palestine are threatend is false. All media outlets in Palestine are united in the struggle for liberation so who may i ask will question this united stance? I believe you have been watching too much CNN

Either you are living on another planet or you are simply disingenuous of the actual truth of that region. It is a known fact to the journalist world that not only the Palestinians but the entire Arab world is ruled by totalitarianism and they are labeled as the “arc of silence” amongst journalists.

Israeli occupation has nothing to do with their Press being free to report the truth or not and your point is total nonsense.

You speak of shelling of schools and universities yet you never seem to mention how Israel came to be in these areas and why the shelling occurs. Listening to your rendition of events would leave a person less informed of the impression that Israel is shooting randomly at Palestinians without cause, simply to maim and kill and to steal their land.

Are you just simply blind to cause and effect or what? You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you’re harboring “freedom fighters” in the name of the “freedom fighting” then you must accept what consequences come with your actions. Tunnels from Egypt, snipers shooting into settlements and bomb laboratories are the reasons why homes are being demolished.

You asked me if I’ve been to Palestine but I ask have you? You want to pass off what is common knowledge as my watching CNN? Do you not know that this past March, unidentified gunmen shot and killed Khalil Al-Zabin as he left his newspaper because he was reporting on the truthful activities in Palestinian areas?

Your pretense here is not impressing to say the least. Any media outlet in Palestinian areas that “dare” to report on the truth will face their untimely demise through violence.

If Palestinians want their freedom it could be theirs but they are held hostage by their leadership, hate is buried in their psyches from birth by their schools and parents and any idea of compromise is rejected by a chaotic society that drags people into the street and shooting them dead to cheering crowds simply because they’ve been accused of being a “collaborator”. No trials, no jury, not proof, just executed.

Last but not least, we all are receiving info from that region second hand since I don’t think you’re living on Arafat Drive either. So why all the nonsense about my ever visiting Palestine?

oh, i see... it's a "United Effort" when a multitude of terrorist organizations keep the general population in check? And when palestinians do decide to speak out against palestinian terrorism they must flee the country or travel with a huge posse of bodyguards.

The palestinians are not free. nobofdy argues that. But when blame is placed solely on Israel, ignoring both history and Islamic law, there is a problem. Jews are in a largely free society. I have never met a jew or zionist who didn't have a problem with at least a few of Israel's policies. Not the case in dictatorial Ara nations. Look at saddam's regime. any deviation from party lines warranted mutilation or death. It's the same way in many other arab countries. This is not necessarily good for free press.

I'd just like to explain a little islamic law. It's called Al-Dimmini -not sure of spelling- and it basically says this: Islam must wage a holy war against the hethens. Nonbelievers must be offered death or conversion. Christianity and Judaism, being monotheistic, are only half right in their religion. They should be allowed to keep their religion, but pay a 50% tax on their income to their muslim overseers, and must be treated like second class citizens. Also, a different law commands the muslims to retake any land that was once occupied by Islam because it is holy land. This includes Spain.

My point is not that Islam is taken word for word or that all Muslims follow it to the letter. My point is that Islamic fundamentalism embraces these tenets, and is in no way conductive of any sort of peace process or compromise, something the israelis have been willing to do for over a century.

As for number of deaths, there are some things i would like to clear up. The palestinian leadership has made a name for itself in lieing to the public about real casualty numbers. Immediately following Deir yassin, the PLO proclaimed that israel massacred 500 "innocent" palestinians. as it turns out, less than 100 were killed and almost all were militants. That's just one example. Also, the palestinians have the opportunity to recieve medical attention from the Israelis. To this day, hospitals such as Haddassa remain politics-free zones, where anybody can recieve the best medical treatment available. However, in their selfish effort to win the PR battle, palestinians rarely bring their wounded to hospitals in order to hide their real number of deaths. A huge number of palestinians every year could be saved if it weren't for this.

As for the "evil israeli soldiers who kill children and massacre civilians," There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between a palestinian terrorist who steps in a dance club line and detonates himself killing teenagers and a group of israeli soldiers accidently shooting a civilian whom a gunman is crouching behind. NEVER has israel shot into a house that has not been shooting back at them. Many horrible stories happen because militants enter an innocent palestinian home, and open fire. The israeli soldier must decide between death and possibly shooting the innocents inside.

Israel moves always in self defense. When israel was first created, a truck would be sent into a militant city warning innocents to leave. Now they have shifted to calling the militants out because previously the militants would not allow the civilian population to leave. Also, there is a shift happening now to targeted assassination rather than retaliation against militant groups and bomb-makers. This is because israel saw that the number of civilians killed by israelis (which is by the way smaller than the number of israeli civilian deaths) was too high. It then altered is strategy. Quite noble if you ask me.

Also, the PA is making a peace effort very hard and it always has. Settlements are not a barrier to peace. Sinai settlements were dismantled when Egypt made peace wth israel. the same could happen if only the Palestinians were willing to make peace. Every time a strong push for peace is made, terrorist activity is stepped up. This is mainly why many israelis have given up trying to make peace.

The palestinian leadership does not want peace, it wants Israel destroyed. THAT is the major barrier to peace. Hopefully Arafat will die soon. Perhaps a new leader will be willing to make the sacrifices needed to obtain a new state.

YOU SAY:

"And when palestinians do decide to speak out against palestinian terrorism they must flee the country or travel with a huge posse of bodyguards."

I SAY:

This is bull**** where do you get this crap from. Question again have you ever been to the West Bank and Gaza? how can you therefore feel you are able to comment on the internal realities of the Palestinian territories?

YOU SAY:

"The palestinians are not free. nobofdy argues that. But when blame is placed solely on Israel, ignoring both history and Islamic law, there is a problem. Jews are in a largely free society. I have never met a jew or zionist who didn't have a problem with at least a few of Israel's policies. Not the case in dictatorial Ara nations. Look at saddam's regime. any deviation from party lines warranted mutilation or death. It's the same way in many other arab countries. This is not necessarily good for free press."

I SAY:

Who else is to blame? And what has "History" and "Islamic law" got to do with Israels occupation of Palestinian land and the oppression of its people? Are you saying the reason for the Palestinians being under occupation has got something to do with their history and religious belief? (although Palestinian christians make up a large percent of the Palestinian worldwide population). It is funny seeing as their are numerous Palestinian factions ranging from Hamas and Islamic Jihad who are Islamic orientated in theor struggle and the DFLP, AND PFLP who are Marxist in their liberation ideology and then there is the secular PLO and Fateh!!! ALL of which question and speak out against each others policies! Do you think we are under a Taliban like regime or something? you need a reality check...

YOU SAY:

"I'd just like to explain a little islamic law. It's called Al-Dimmini -not sure of spelling- and it basically says this: Islam must wage a holy war against the hethens. Nonbelievers must be offered death or conversion. Christianity and Judaism, being monotheistic, are only half right in their religion. They should be allowed to keep their religion, but pay a 50% tax on their income to their muslim overseers, and must be treated like second class citizens. Also, a different law commands the muslims http://www.jews-for-allah.org/jewis...iftypercent.htm

I SAY:

Islamic law does require a tax of non Muslims who live in Islamic countries I agree 100%. When Islam first blessed this earth to offer for non-Muslims was at that time a great show of tolerence and mercy seeing as usually people in this position under different civilisations would have been murdered or forced to convert to the faith of their masters. The tax you speak of if both logical and sensible. Muslims are obliged to pay Sakat (Charity) it is a requirment of them in Islams docrtrine. Jews and Christians do not have Sakat thus the tax is a way of making all citizens equal in their payment of Zakat something the Christian missionaries forget to point out in order to demonise Islam. As for the myth of 50% Tax this is also a Christian and Zionist invention pure MYTH! CHECK THE FOLLOWING WEBSITE FOR DETAILS: http://www.jews-for-allah.org/jewis...iftypercent.htm
Please tell me which law tells us to Force conversions and retake all previous Islamic Lands including Spain? This is unrealistic Please back up what you say instead of just making things up to suite your own opinions of Islam.

YOU SAY:

"As for the "evil israeli soldiers who kill children and massacre civilians," There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between a palestinian terrorist who steps in a dance club line and detonates himself killing teenagers and a group of israeli soldiers accidently shooting a civilian whom a gunman is crouching behind. NEVER has israel shot into a house that has not been shooting back at them. Many horrible stories happen because militants enter an innocent palestinian home, and open fire. The israeli soldier must decide between death and possibly shooting the innocents inside"

I SAY:

Again how the hell do you know what goes on in the West Bank and Gaza Apart from the word of a few murdering Zionist Military Generals and the news stations like CNN etc... As I do not have the time to document all accounts of Israeli war crimes i suggest visiting the following page: http://www.hoffman-info.com/palestine46.html This is proof of Israeli child killers. Please do not insult my intelligence when i have infact lived and worked in Hebron, Bethlehem and Gaza and have seen things with my own eyes which would make you sick.
"Israel moves always in self defense" ********!!!!!!! is all I have to say.

YOU SAY:

"Also, the palestinians have the opportunity to recieve medical attention from the Israelis."

I SAY:

This is funny seeing as most Ambulences are sent back at check points while the patients in the back are dying. Also the Palestinian medical services often come under fire and many paramedics have been murdered. Thats why the say to be a Paramedic in Palestine is the most dangerous job so stop feeding me you crap. You are in denial!!!

YOU SAY:

"Also, the PA is making a peace effort very hard and it always has. Settlements are not a barrier to peace. Sinai settlements were dismantled when Egypt made peace wth israel. the same could happen if only the Palestinians were willing to make peace. Every time a strong push for peace is made, terrorist activity is stepped up. This is mainly why many israelis have given up trying to make peace. "

I SAY: Well not really me but you will get the point anyways!

"Barak appears to be asking for only 10% of the occupied territories. In reality, it's closer to 30%, taking into account the territories he wants to annex in the Jerusalem area and place under his "security control" in the Jordan Valley. But even worse, in the map submitted to the Palestinians, these percentage points cut the country up from East to West and from North to South, so that the Palestinian state will consist of groups of islands, each surrounded by Israeli settlers and soldiers.

"World opinion is always on the side of the underdog. In this fight, we are Goliath and they are David. In the eyes of the world [outside the US], the Palestinians are fighting a war of liberation against a foreign occupation. We are in their territory, not they on ours. We are the occupiers, they are the victims. This is the objective situation, and no minister of propaganda can change that." Israeli peace activist. Uri Avnery, "12 Conventional Lies About the Palestine-Israeli Conflict" from Palestine Media Watch, www.pmwatch.org.

ALSO

"In American coverage of the recent Camp David meetings, the American press obediently followed the Israeli and US government spin that while Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak made courageous concessions for peace, Palestinian unwillingness to compromise caused the meeting to fail.

"Never mind that Barak's 'courageous concessions' consisted of allowing the Palestinians to have joint administrative responsibility over a couple of remote Arab neighborhoods of Arab East Jerusalem - pathetic crumbs tossed on the floor which Arafat was expected to gratefully pick up." American Jewish reporter, Eduardo Cohen, from "What Americans Need to Know - But Probably Won't Be Told - To understand Palestinian Rage" from Palestine Media Watch, www.pmwatch.org

And the reason there will never be peace is because Zionism calls for the occupation of ALL of Palestine. They want it ALL and the Apartheid wall and the expansion of Jewish settlements prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt and no one with half a brain can deny this. The wall is on OUR LAND! you are attemting to isolate us. Israel wants to abandon Gaza in order to occupy ALL of the west bank thus making it part of "Israel"!!! This is why Sharon is expanding settlements and this is why the wall is stealing more Palesrtinian land while making everyday life impossible for Palestinians thus attempting to force them off their land by putting them in open air ghetto prisons!!! ETHNIC CLEANSING MAYBE?

Gandhi on the Palestine conflict - 1938

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in "A Land of Two Peoples" ed. Mendes-Flohr.

"Israeli Terrorists, Palestinian Victims and the Masters of PR"

The only true subject worth debating in this forum is....

Palestinian terrorists, Israeli victims and the masters of PR.

Two buses blown in the past two days by Islamic terrorists in Israel.
Who were the victims here, and how will the Palestinian biased world media spin this one?

Seems to me - at least this is my take after the PR bombardment - that until Hamas and the nut-jobs stop blowing up buses and cafes, then the Israelis won't stop killing Hamas and anyone else who gets in the way, ie kiddies.

I won't even try to put forward a solution to their probs but seems to me if Nelson Mandela went over there and sat between them, they'd at least listen to em. Hell, they listened to Bill ... at least for a bit ... seems they want to calm down and live together, at least most of em do ... ... gotta be a better way than all this death, yet the militants on both sides aren't actively lookin for it ... there doesn't seem to be any tolerance or give-and-take ... someone should just refute God once and for all and maybe without everlasting life in paradise they might try and make the most of their finite period in this mortal plane, plain, or the correct way you spell it.

im sorry for not making myself clear, dvs.

I returned in early august from a 7 week trip to israel. While we didnt make any class trips to the west bank, i did get a chance to visit on my free weekend.

i wasn't going to post these originally because i see personal experiences as mainly one-sided, with the person involved warping what he sees to pertain to his own beliefs.

as you may or may not know, israel has just 1 "weekend" day, saturday. I stayed for 3 days, sat. sun. and mon. I was given the opportunity to walk around with my hosts, and we started discussing israel. They decided to take me to a palestinian school. We arrived just as school was getting out. Israeli police officers and soldiers are stationed outside of many schools to discourage fights between israeli and palestinian schoolchildren. The kids came pouring out and instead of exiting immediately they ran to piles of small rocks, i guess collected during recess, and started hurling them at the israeli soldiers. I watched intently from afar as the soldiers shielded themselves. the schoolmasteres came out, and instead of telling the kids to stop, stood in the entryway, crossed their arms, and watched.

Israeli soldiers in this instance practiced restraint to an exponential degree. If evidence was found that the teachers were directing the kids to do this, israel would immediately arrest them. However, since access is retricted, they are not allowed to enter. too bad.

Now, obviously there is no way to prove this, so please dont ask for proof. Just as you have no proof that you saw "injustices" against palestinians, but i respect your experiences.

As for the press, visit here: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...papresstoc.html
and here:http://www.meforum.org/article/604

as for islamic law, i concede. but the fact remains that nder islamic law, non-muslims are to remain subordinate to muslims.

and what i meant was that israel is not the only reason that the palestinians are in their current condition. Their own leaders, and leaders of other islamic countries, played an enormous role in creating the refugee problem, and i should not be placed solely in the hands of the israelis to bail out those who decided or were told to flee their homes.

israel has never EVER "routinely" killed palestinians. that link you gave me was so rife with anti-semitism, blatant disregard for fairness, and factual ommisions. Granted, some children have been killed, but they were never fired on intentionally without warning by soldiers. Terrorists in the west bank often use tactics of beginning fire-fights in crowded areas, even going as far as dressing in civilian clothing and using human shields. After the conclusion of the fighting, palestinians always claim that israel did the killing. I remember a few years ago that in one case studies were done on a palestinian man tha found that the bullet had come from the palestinian side. thats just one example.

as for the medical attention thing, u are wrong, but i need to find my sources before i post any more about it.

as for ambulances, my teacher in israel was on guard duty in a w. bank checkpoint. He made a routine check of the ambulance and found a young boy in the back with bombs strapped to his chest. Terrorism is the reason why many ambulances r sent away or denied access. it is a defensive measure against a barbaric tactic.

as for the barak peace proposal, i sincerely doubt u have ever read it. Web sites range in their estimations between 70% and 98% of requested land on the proposal. keep in mind that even if it was "only" 70% about 15 %more would have been givven up in a matter of a few years due to a security measure against further terrorism. Also, israel offered several BILLION dollars of aid to go to displaced palestinians. Even prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia encouraged arafat to take the deal. But Arafat walked away without offering a counter-proposal, to the dismay of a previously exstatic population, to begin his intifada and perpetuate violence.

Do you even know what apartheid is??
read this:
http://www.honestreporting.com/arti...theid_Wall-.asp

the gaza pullout is not part of an attempt to colonize all of palestine. that is so ridiculous. if they wanted to they could've taken much more land following the 6 day war. but they didnt. they could've pressed the attack after the yom-kippur war, but they didn't. Israel is not expansionist. Find history that proves otherwise. And if the wall proves that israel is trying to take over the w. bank, WHY THE HELL DOES IT NOT ENCOMPASS IT.

and even if ghandi's name meant that he was a good person, he is still far from correct. The british did not "help" the early israelis. The land was purchased legally, and jews were a majority in their partition. Israel belongs to none but those who inhabit it. As i said in a different post, show me a canaanite or moabite and ill buy him or her land in israel.

oh heres another link regarding middle east press

http://www.honestreporting.com/arti...n_Continues.asp

Thanks Aran for shedding some “balance” in here. I think sometimes the pretense is stifling concerning what’s really taking place in that region.

YOU SAY:

as you may or may not know, israel has just 1 "weekend" day, saturday. I stayed for 3 days, sat. sun. and mon. I was given the opportunity to walk around with my hosts, and we started discussing israel. They decided to take me to a palestinian school. We arrived just as school was getting out. Israeli police officers and soldiers are stationed outside of many schools to discourage fights between israeli and palestinian schoolchildren. The kids came pouring out and instead of exiting immediately they ran to piles of small rocks, i guess collected during recess, and started hurling them at the israeli soldiers. I watched intently from afar as the soldiers shielded themselves. the schoolmasteres came out, and instead of telling the kids to stop, stood in the entryway, crossed their arms, and watched.
I SAY:
Ok so your point is what? That a Schoolmaster doesn’t care if the School Children throw stones at OCCUPYING Israel soldiers? What sort of vision would you like us the reader of this thread to conjure up in our heads? That these school children had the soldiers responded been any real mortal threat in the first place? Or that in your view these children were lucky to not have been shot at for throwing stones at an Israeli presence they see hindering them on a daily basis from acquiring a real and decent education among all the other oppressive sentiment on having these IOF soldiers on Palestinian land has on the Palestinians and in particular Palestinian school children. In many cases these feelings are intertwined with just having a bit of fun. Didn’t you as a school kid or friends at your school ever knock on someone’s house after school and run away? We here in the UK call it ‘knock down ginger’ remember the feeling it gave you? These kids although politically motivated in their actions get this same kind of feeling from throwing stones at IOF soldiers. (IOF MEANING ISRAELI OCCUPATION FORCES). Although for the safety of the Children the masters in my view should have swallowed their pride on this occasion as their were children involved and stopped them. But this sort of experience does not prove anything to me. Israeli soldiers can restrain themselves just as groups like Hamas can call a temporary truce.

YOU SAY:

”Now, obviously there is no way to prove this, so please dont ask for proof. Just as you have no proof that you saw "injustices" against palestinians, but i respect your experiences.”
I SAY:
That’s nice to know you respect my experiences….

YOU SAY:

” as for islamic law, i concede. but the fact remains that nder islamic law, non-muslims are to remain subordinate to muslims.”
I SAY:
Excuse me but the reality speaks for itself. In Palestine Muslims and Christians have a long history of a united struggle against the oppressive Zionist state of Israel. For American Judeo-“Christians” like yourself who consider Islam to be the chief demon of the world such FACTS are embarrassing to your false interpretation of Islamic Arab and Christian Arab unity where BOTH peoples are equal. Now under Israeli control, which claims to enforce Jewish law on the land, non-Jews are the ones who are infact inferior to Jews and are treated like second-class citizens. Thus non-Jews in Israel as is a well know FACT are subordinate to Jews. Such myths are the foundation of Christian Zionism. Your attempt to demonise Islamic rule in Palestine are deemed to fail as Israel’s history proves it is the Jews who have destroyed Mosques and Churches alike. Before 1948 there were over 400 Arab villages Most if not all had a mosque and Church. Where are the villages of 1948? Where are the historic mosques and Churches? And why after 1500 years of Islamic rule have these Mosques and Churches existed until the Zionist conquest of Palestine? i.e. were destroyed or converted into “other buildings” by the Zionist racists! Arabs in Israel are treated as second class citizens and the fate of Palestinians living in Palestine is far far worse. So before you begin to speak about Islam and its laws which you are in no position to speak about analyse the realities of the Jewish state and their intolerance for the Palestinian Muslims and Christians the MYTH of Judeo-Christianity needs to stop! The reality of the situation is that under JEWISH LAW non-Jews live as second class citizens and are often murdered for their racial background by Jewish Terrorists.

YOU SAY:

”and what i meant was that israel is not the only reason that the palestinians are in their current condition. Their own leaders, and leaders of other islamic countries, played an enormous role in creating the refugee problem, and i should not be placed solely in the hands of the israelis to bail out those who decided or were told to flee their homes.”
I SAY:
I only need to quote an ISRAELI author on such a blatant lie used to wash Israel’s hands clean of the crimes they commited against my people in order to drive them out of their land. You anger me when you claim the Israelis came in “peace” which is more or less what you are saying! History proves that Zionisms idea was to rid the land of its true indigenous people the PALESTINIANS. Such arguments are baseless lies. History on this subject is my witness:
"For the entire day of April 9, 1948, Irgun and LEHI soldiers carried out the slaughter in a cold and premeditated fashion...The attackers 'lined men, women and children up against the walls and shot them,'...The ruthlessness of the attack on Deir Yassin shocked Jewish and world opinion alike, drove fear and panic into the Arab population, and led to the flight of unarmed civilians from their homes all over the country." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."
"By 1948, the Jew was not only able to 'defend himself' but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, 'in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes'...Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that 'every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.'" Norman Finkelstein, "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict."
"During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim...[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha... The village was destroyed that night... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable." Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.


YOU SAY/ AND I RESPOND:

”israel has never EVER "routinely" killed Palestinians”.
“Granted, some children have been killed”
SOME CHILDREN! Yet again where do you come up with this garbage of “some” children! LOOK AT THE FOLLOWING CHART: http://www.d-n-i.net/al_aqsa_intifada/sld001.htm
You have a nerve watering down your comments to serve Israels murdering Army! How would you explain the death of Journalists who were “accidentally” shot in the head? Who “accidentally shoots someone in the head?
Here is a list a Fraction of those Children shot by Israeli murdering soldiers:
1) Mahmoud, 13, in the village of Sara in the West Bank. Mahmoud was shot in the head March 10, 2002 by Israeli troops, west of Nablus.
2) Bara, 14, and Aziza, 16, were killed when Israeli troops bombed their truck after their mother had picked them up from school. Two Palestinian children, ages 4 and 16, were killed in the second vehicle.
3) March 4, Israeli troops opened fire on an ambulance in the Jenin refugee camp and killed a doctor, 57 year old Khalil Suleiman. Three medics and a nine year old girl were wounded in the Israeli army attack.
4) The body of Mohammed Houmeduk, 12, shot and killed in cold blood Dec. 18, 2001 in the Khan Younis refugee camp in the Gaza Strip, by Israeli soldiers.
4) The sister of 13-year-old Mohammed Abu Libda, who was shot to death by Israeli troops
The TRUTH is over 1600 Palestinians have been murdered by Israelis as opposed to under 400 Israelis murdered by Palestinians between 2000 and 2002 alone!. That is A LOT of “accidental” or “collateral” killings would you say?
Taken from http://www.btselem.org
“2,683 Palestinians were killed by Israeli security forces in the Occupied Territories, of whom 533 were minors under the age of 18.” Again 533 MINORS! I will post the entire statistics page as a thread!
“but they were never fired on intentionally without warning by soldiers.”
Without warning? You are either really stupid or you just see Arab blood as being cheap! You are admitting here that Children are murdered intentionally because they ignore “Warning” shots? You obviously therefore know that these intentional killings are going on….
YOU SAY:
“Terrorists in the west bank often use tactics of beginning fire-fights in crowded areas, even going as far as dressing in civilian clothing and using human shields. After the conclusion of the fighting, palestinians always claim that israel did the killing. I remember a few years ago that in one case studies were done on a palestinian man tha found that the bullet had come from the palestinian side. thats just one example.”
I SAY:
Utter ********! Yet again another excuse for Israels Murders against my people!

YOU SAY:

”He made a routine check of the ambulance and found a young boy in the back with bombs strapped to his chest. Terrorism is the reason why many ambulances r sent away or denied access. it is a defensive measure against a barbaric tactic.”
I SAY:
You just have to go to the RED CROSS website to find out just how many Ambulance workers and paramedics have been murdered by Israeli terrorists. That is why the red cross and the Palestinian workers society conclude that being a paramedic in Palestine is the most dangerous Job in Palestine. Your chances of being murdered by Israeli terrorist “soldiers” are very high indeed.
For more information regarding the deliberate targeting of Ambulances please see: http://www.btselem.org/English/Obst...Testimonies.asp

YOU SAID:

” Also, israel offered several BILLION dollars of aid to go to displaced palestinians. Even prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia encouraged arafat to take the deal. But Arafat walked away without offering a counter-proposal, to the dismay of a previously exstatic population, to begin his intifada and perpetuate violence.”
I SAY:
We do not want money and Arafat was right to reject these bribes. We want our land back which is priceless. How can you continue justifying the illegal theft of Palestinian land and the cruel way we are treated at the hands of Zionist Jews!!! How can you demonise my people when infact our only “crime” was to be Palestinian. This is real anti-semitism!
YOU SAY:
Do you even know what apartheid is??
I SAY:
Indeed I do you obviously do not. This APARTHEID WALL is exactly that:
a·part·heid DEFINITION:
1. An official policy of racial segregation formerly practiced in the Republic of South Africa, involving political, legal, and economic discrimination against nonwhites.
2. A policy or practice of separating or segregating groups.
3. The condition of being separated from others; segregation.
Need I say more??????????????????????


the gaza pullout is not part of an attempt to colonize all of palestine. that is so ridiculous. if they wanted to they could've taken much more land following the 6 day war. but they didnt. they could've pressed the attack after the yom-kippur war, but they didn't.
YOU SAY:
“Israel is not expansionist. Find history that proves otherwise. And if the wall proves that israel is trying to take over the w. bank, WHY THE HELL DOES IT NOT ENCOMPASS IT.”
I SAY:
I have found it J
May of 1955 Moshe Dayan records in his diary as follows: "[Israel] must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space."
Our space? Could this be the same “space” Zionists speak of when they refer to the Biblical state of “Israel”? i.e ALL of Palestine? And why therefore has the APARTHEID WALL been built on Palestinian land if not to reduce Palestine into even more small sectioned off open air ghettos!!!!!!? If Israel was really concerned with security surely they would have build the wall on the Green Line. There is no excuse and no way to answer this question without being a LIAR!

YOU SAID:

The land was purchased legally, and jews were a majority in their partition. Israel belongs to none but those who inhabit it. As i said in a different post, show me a canaanite or moabite and ill buy him or her land in israel.
THE TRUTH IS:
In 1948 the moment the racist state of “Israel” was declared it LEGALLY owned 6% of the land of Palestine. The mandatory authority restricted after 1940 Jewish land ownership to specific Zones in PALESTINE the Jews being expansionist Zionists J continued buying within the 65% of total land restricted FOR PALESTINIANS! In 1947 when the partition of Palestine was announced it included the illegal land they “brought” which was incorporated into the Jewish state (expansionism?) After “Israel” was declared a “state” its NEW laws made it possible for the Jews to claim this land as theirs the original owners of the land i.e. the PALESTINIANS became refugees (and yet you insist on blaming anyone but the Jews?) or as the Zionists call them “absentee landlords”. This was done to stop Palestinians returning to their land and thus making them refugees! Ethic cleansing the smart way! Expansionism the smart way!

You dare equate children knocking on doors with hurling stones? talk about sanitization...

Unfortunately you missed the point entirely. Israeli "crimes" are by no means a regular occurence. They are few, far between, and as far as anybody can tell, accidental. And those soldiers revealed to have intentionally shot palestinians are severly punished. A far cry from what suicide murderers' families recieve for their crime. Im not saying my isolated experience is the be all and end all of what is happening. When in israel, i was somewhat surprised at the atmosphere. Most people I talked to on the israeli side wanted to live in peace, not kill palestinians. There is by no means a status quo directing israelis to hate palestinians.

that's something that cannot be said of the palestinians, who teach their children hatred of jews and israel. Scoolteachers encourage random acts of violence against Israelis, it's not simply child mischief.

and i would like one ounce of proof as to what legal document states that israel is illegally taking land, or that they have no claim to west bank land, or that they are an occupying force. How can you be an occupying force in your own land? that's right, you can't. And it IS legally part of Israel.

As for your repeated claims that Islam itself does not promote violence, it is still used to justify it. Again, it's all a matter of interpretation.

"It is not a mistake that the Koran warns us of the hatred of the jews and PUT THEM AT THE TOP OF THE LIST OF ENEMIES OF ISLAM... the muslims are ready to sacrifice their lives and blood to protect the islamic nature of Jerusalem and El Aksa. -Sheikh Hian Al-Adriisi excerpt of address at the al-aksa mosque

"Our hatred of the jews dates from God's condemnation of them for their persecution and rejection of Isa (jesus) and their subsequent rejection of his chosen prophet.
"for a muslim to kill a jew, or for him to be killed by a jew ensures him an immediate entry into Heaven and into the august presence of God Almighty. -King Ibn saud of Saudi Arabia

"The jews are scattered to the ends of the earth, where they live exiled and despised, since by their nature they are vile, greeady and enemies of mankind, by their nature they were tempted to steal a land as asylum for their disgrace"
"The Jews of our time are the descendants of the jews who harmed the prophet Muhammad. They betrayed him , they broke the treaty with him and joined sides with his enemies to fight him." -excerpts from palestinian school textbooks

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...ths/mf15.html#d

here's some more ways that arab/islam has demonized jews.

ill address the rest later. this legwork, which you never seem to do, is time-consuming, and it is now time for me to eat. bu bye

P.S. Can you show me a Viking, or a Saxon, or a Norman, or a Roman in England?

Okay so when are you going to answer my post? Your only answer was to try to "prove" to the world Islams "intolerence" to Jews by quoting ONE muslim. If you want to play the Quoting game we can go on forever. Unless you have answers to what i have stated in my response to your LIES I believe this debate to be over seeing as you are unable to provide anything but assumptions! as for the quoting game lets play:

1) "A partial Jewish State is not the end, but only the beginning. I am certain that we can not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country and the region. - David Ben Gurion, in a letter to his son, 1937"

EXPANSIONISM?????????? AGAIN ANOTHER QUOTE TO REFUTE YOUR FALSE DEFENSE! YES ZIONISM = RACIST EXPANSIONISM

2) "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left. - Joseph Weitz, the head of the Jewish Agencys Colonization Department, which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine, 1940"


Plan for ethnic cleansing. And i thought the refugee problem was not the Jews fault?

3)"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population. - The Koenig Report"

Wow and i thought the Jews wanted to live side by side with us!

4) "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves. - Heilbrun, the Chairman of the committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv"

And i thought it was the Jews and Christians who lived as "subordanates" under Islam. Ooops looks like i was wrong

5) "The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates. It includes parts of Syria and Lebanon. -Rabbi Fischmann, member of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, in his testimony to the U.N. Special Committee of Enquiry, 1947"

EXPANSIONISM........... AGAIN......... THIS QUOTING GAME MUST BORE YOU. I SUGGEST YOU ANSWER MY POST NEXT TIME HEHEHE

6) " don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian Child will be born in this area. The Palestinian Woman and Child is more dangerous than the Man, Because the Palestinian Child existence refers that Generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli Civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With One hit I've killed 750 Palestinians ( in Rafah, 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic Girls as The Palestinian Woman is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and Nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do. - Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956"


BUSH: "SHARON IS A MAN OF PEACE" Just like bush is a man who "loves freedom" PLEASE!!!!!!!!!

7) "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters. - Uri Lubrani, Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurions special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960"

NOW ITS YOUR TURN!!!!!!!!

Conclusion:

Without me even realizing ALL these quotes and thanks to all these Racist facist Zionists your argument has been reduced to dust. And it was the Zionists like this who made it possible.

Reduced to dust? hardly. These quotes are ridiculous. You conveniently leave out surrounding factors and relevant information about each one, a strategy frequently used by people with a smear campaign.

Here we go...

Quote #1:
"a partial Jewish state." Think about it. Gurion knew that a binational state would not work. He is right. The best thing would be 2 separate states. But that's not all. This quote comes on the wings of the Peel Commission inquiry, a disputed document that puts forward a plan for partition. In it, the Jews would recieve land starting from 10 miles sounth of tel-aviv, and stretching in a 9 mile border north, extending up and including the galillee. Arabs would have gotten more than twice tha amount, as they would have recieved the entire west bank, and extending down and spreading out to encompass the negev. Tel-aviv and jerusalem, and the are between, would remain under britissh cntrl. This quote was made in 1937, the middle of awful arab riots, in which between 36 and 39 over 500 jews were killed. By the way, about the same amount of arabs were killed in internal pwer struggles during the time.
Zionism does not equal racist expansionism.

Quote #2:
Again, this quote was made immediately following the phase-out of arab riots. Joseph Weitz is a nted labor zionist. He subscribes to the belief that land would belong to the jews if they bought it and worked it. The land could only be obtained through hard work and by making what was previously desert or wetlands into productive soil. He recognized that the Jews would need to control the land if a state was to be made. And having lived through arab death sqaud strikes and anti-semitism, he knew that if many arabs remained they would continue to be a problem... Prophetic, no?

Quote #3:
isn't this fun?
THe Koenig report was specifically for the galilee, which was one of the worst places in terms of arab terrorism. Farmland and settlers were frequently attakced by arab rioters and shelled by neighboring lebaon and syria from the golan heights. You too would feel the same way as outlined in the report if u lived in constant fear of a population that could kill you at anytime. Perhaps that is what the palestinians feel, and you yourself feel this way about zionists... can you say "double standard"

Quote #4:
Ok, again you omit critical information. This quote was made in 1983, during the brutal war in lebannon. Hizbullah was at its peak and made frequent rocket attacks against israel. The Likkud party, which did not have control of the knesset, was quick to lay blame on the palestinians. By the way, Heilbrun was reduced to political crap following this statement. His boss, mayor lahat, was an outspoken critic of harsh policies towards palestinians. And by the way, it has nothing to do with the jewish religion.

Quote #5:
Ok, this is a quote from an ultra-religious rabbi, and reflects the views of very few people. He said this to make a plea for their fair share of land. Fischman realized that his claim would be largely ignored, but he put it forward in an effort to let the ritish know that Jews truly do have an ancient claim to the land, however disputed it may be.

Quote 6&7:
Good ol' Sharon, always good for an evil quote or two. I agree all the way with you that this quote was unnecessary. I despise sharon just as much as the next guy. But what you have to realize is that sharon spent his entire life fighting the invading arab armies and carrying out the war in lebannon, which reduced his political stature to dust for a while. He became very bitter. When Arafat rejected the barak peace proposal israelis were dismayed and angry. When the intifada broke out israelis decided they have had enough, so they elected the hawkish likkud party to office. Already the likkud government is coming under fire and it is unlikely that they will retain a coalition government come next elections.
as for #7, see quotes 3 and 4.

I'm bored, but not of the quote game. I'm tired and sick of doing legwork for you. Back up your claims please, and maybe you will make coherent arguments rather than these half-truths you put forward. It's making me sick.

Continued

Qur’an 21:98 “Verily you (disbelieving Infidels), and the gods that you worship besides Allah, are the fuel for Hell, ******s for the fire! Certainly you will enter it! Had their (idols) been (real) alihah (gods), they would have kept them out of Hell. Therein, sobbing will be your lot. Breathing with deep sighs, roaring. You will hear nothing but wailing and groaning.”
Qur’an 18:103 “Say: ‘Shall we inform you of who will be the greatest losers? …Those who reject my Revelations… Hell is their reward, because they rejected Islam, and took My proofs, verses, and lessons, and those of My Messengers by way of jest in mockery.’”
Qur’an 52:9 “On the Day when heaven will heave in dreadful shaking, trembling, and mountains will fly hither and thither, woe to those who reject [me], that play in shallow trifles and sport in vain discourses. That Day they will be pushed down by force, thrust with a horrible thrust into the Fire of Hell. Unable to resist, they shall be driven to the fire with violence.”
Qur’an 40:10 “Lo, those who disbelieve will be informed by proclamation: ‘Verily Allah’s abhorrence is more terrible than your aversion to yourselves. Allah’s hatred of you is terrible, seeing that you were called to the Faith [of submission] and you refused.’”
Qur’an 40:35 “Those who dispute the Signs and Verses of Allah without any authority, grievous and odious, hateful and disgusting, is it in the sight of Allah and the Believers.’”
Ishaq:185 “Adam reviewed the spirits of his offspring. The infidels excited his disgust. I saw men with lips like camels. In their hands were pieces of fire like stones which they thrust into their mouths. They came out their posteriors.”
Qur’an 20:48 “Verily it has been revealed to us that the Penalty of Doom awaits those who reject and deny.”
Qur’an 20:100 “Whoever turns from it, he shall bear a burden on the Day of Doom. Grievous evil will the load on them. We shall gather the Mujrimun (disbeliever) blue or blind-eyed with thirst.... My Lord will blast them and scatter them as dust.”
Qur’an 21:06 “Not one of the populations which We destroyed believed: will these believe? ...So we saved whom We pleased, and We destroyed the disbelievers.”
Qur’an 21:10 “Verily, We have sent down for you a Book in which is your reminder. Have you then no sense? How many towns have We utterly destroyed because of their wrongs, exchanging them for other people? When they (felt) Our Torment, behold, they (began to) fly. Fly not, but return to that which emasculated you so that you may be interrogated. They cried: ‘Woe to us!’ Their crying did not cease till We mowed them down as ashes silent and quenched.”
Qur’an 21:98 “Verily you (unbelievers), and that which you worship besides Allah, are ******s for the Hell Fire! And come to it you will! There, sobbing and groaning will be your lot.”
Qur’an 46:20 “On that Day the unbelievers will be placed before the Fire: ‘You squandered your good things in this life and you sought comfort from them, but today shall you be rewarded with a penalty of humiliation.’”
Qur’an 59:4 “If any one resists Allah, verily Allah is severe in Punishment, stern in reprisal.”
Ishaq:249 “Fear Hell, whose fuel is men and stones prepared for the infidels.’”
Qur’an 2:39 “Those who reject and deny Our Signs will be inmates of the Hell Fire and will abide there forever.”
Qur’an 2:99 “We have sent down to you Manifest Signs; and none reject them but those who are perverse.”
Qur’an 2:71 “The semblance of the infidels is one who shouts to one who cannot hear. They are deaf, dumb, and blind. They make no sense.”
Qur’an 2:174 “Those who conceal Allah’s revelations in the [Bible] Scripture Book, and thus make a miserable profit thereby [selling it to Muhammad], swallow Fire into themselves; Allah will not address them. Grievous will be their doom.” Qur’an 2:175 “They are the ones who bartered away guidance for error and Torment in place of Forgiveness. Ah, what boldness (they show) for the Fire! (Their doom is) because Allah sent down the Book in truth but those who seek causes of dispute in the Book are in a schism of great opposition.”
Qur’an 2:256 “There is no compulsion in religion.” Qur’an 4:90 “If they turn back from Islam, becoming renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them.”
Bukhari:V5B59N572 “O Muslims, take not My enemies as friends, offering them kindness when they reject Allah, the Prophet Muhammad, and his Qur’an. And whoever does that, then indeed he has gone (far) astray. You have come out to fight in My Cause, seeking My acceptance so do not be friendly with them, even in secret.” [60:1]
Qur’an 8:12 “I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.” Qur’an 8:13 “This because they rejected Allah and defied His Messenger. If anyone opposes Allah and His Messenger, Allah shall be severe in punishment. That is the torment: ‘So taste the punishment. For those infidels who resist there is the torment of Hell.’”
Qur’an 8:20 “Those who do not obey are the worst of beasts, the vilest of animals in the sight of Allah. They are deaf and dumb. Those who do not understand are senseless.”
Qur’an 8:36 “The unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the Way of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have intense regrets and sighs. It will become an anguish for them, then they will be subdued. The unbelievers shall be driven into hell in order that Allah may distinguish the bad from the good and separate them. Allah wants to heap the wicked one over the other and cast them into Hell. They are the losers.”
Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Qur’an 8:40 “If people are obstinate, and refuse to surrender, know Allah is your Supporter.”
Qur’an 8:50 “If you could have seen the infidels when the angels drew away their souls, striking their faces and smiting their backs. The angels said: ‘Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire.’”
Qur’an 8:52 “They denied and rejected the revelations of Allah, and Allah destroyed them, punishing them for their crimes: for Allah is strict, severe in punishment.”
Ishaq:231 “Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders.”
Ishaq:363 “Say to those who do not believe you: ‘You will be vanquished and gathered into Hell, an evil resting place.’”
Qur’an 61:7 “Who does greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against Allah, even as he is being summoned to Submission? And Allah guides not the disbelievers. Their intention is to extinguish Allah’s Light (by blowing) with their mouths: But Allah will complete His Light, even though the Unbelievers detest (it). It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth (Islam), that he may make it conquer all religion, even though the disbelievers hate (it).”
Qur’an 2:104 “To those who don’t submit there is a grievous punishment.”
Qur’an 3:4 “As a guidance to mankind, He sent down the criterion (to judge between right and wrong). Truly, for those who deny the proofs and signs of Allah, the torture will be severe; Allah is powerful, the Lord of Retribution.”
Qur’an 3:10 “As for those who deny [Islam], neither their wealth nor their children will help them in the least against Allah. They shall be ******s for the fire of Hell.”
Qur’an 3:11 “The punishment of Allah is severe. So tell the unbelieving infidels: ‘You will surely be vanquished, seized by Allah, and driven to Hell. How bad a preparation.’”
Qur’an 3:26 “You [Allah] exalt whom You please and debase and humiliate whom You will. Those who believe should not take unbelievers as their friends…guard yourselves from them.… Allah commands you to beware of Him.”
Qur’an 3:32 “Say: ‘Obey Allah and His Messenger;’ If they refuse, remember Allah does not like unbelieving infidels.”
Qur’an 3:55 “Allah said, ‘Jesus, I will take you and raise you to Myself and rid you of the infidels (who have forged the lie that you are My son).… Those who are infidels will surely receive severe torment both in this world and the next; and none will they have as a savior for them.”
Qur’an 3:61 “If anyone disputes with you about Jesus being divine, flee them and pray that Allah will curse them.”
Qur’an 3:62 “This is the true account, the true narrative, the true explanation: There is no Ilah (God) except Allah; and Allah—He is the Mighty. And if they turn away, then lo! Allah is aware of the corrupters, the mischief-makers. Say: ‘People of the Book, come to common terms as an agreement between us and you: That we all shall worship none but Allah.’”
Qur’an 3:84 “Say (Muhammad): ‘We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes [of Israel], and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered, bowing our will (in Islam).’”
Qur’an 3:85 “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (Surrender), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who are losers.” Qur’an 3:87 “Of such, the reward is the curse of Allah, of His angels, and of all men, all together. Their penalty of doom will not be lightened.”
Qur’an 3:118 “Believers! Take not into your intimacy those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, and Christians). They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin. Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths. What their hearts conceal is far worse. When they are alone, they bite off the very tips of their fingers at you in their rage. Say unto them: ‘Perish in your rage.’”
Qur’an 3:141 “This is so that Allah may test the faithful and destroy the unbelieving infidels.” [Another translation:] “Allah’s object is to purge those that are true in Faith and blight the disbelievers. This is so that Allah may test the faithful and destroy the unbelieving infidels.”
Qur’an 3:150 “Soon We shall strike terror into the hearts of the Infidels, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be in the Fire!”
Qur’an 33:8 “He has prepared for the Unbelievers a grievous Penalty.”
Qur’an 33:58 “And those who annoy or malign Muslims bear (on themselves) a crime of calumny and a glaring sin.”
Qur’an 24:39 “For those who disbelieve, their deeds are like a mirage in the desert. There is no water for the thirsty. He only finds Allah, who will pay him his due in Hell.”
Qur’an 23:40 “Soon they will regret. Torment and an awful cry will overtake them. We have made such men rubbish, like rotting plants. So away with the people.”
Qur’an 24:57 “Never think that the unbelievers can escape in the land. Their abode is Fire!”
Qur’an 4:12 “Those who disobey Allah and His Messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: And they shall have a humiliating punishment.”

Why is it that it seems to be impossible for Arabs to understand that their actions are counter-productive?

Israel at times does kill innocent children. To say “routinely” kills innocent doesn’t quite describe accurately their actions, however I can see why Palestinians are saying such things.

Israel has military might over Palestinians so it’s inevitable that numbers will be in their favor when speaking of casualties. The numbers of those killed doesn’t necessarily reflect who’s right or wrong in a conflict just who’s most powerful.

The problem is learning how to wade through the propaganda and let’s face it, there’s tons of it out there intentionally designed to distort the truth. In as much Arabs will always overplay events as Israel will underplay them.

Sorry but I remain unconvinced by the websites posted here by DVS. Clearly there is NO balance on them whatsoever as the sites are pointing to deaths as the foundation of right and wrong. It squarely lays blame solely on Israel and usually that’s a very good indicator of bias.

I find that Arabs are notorious for pointing to affect and not cause and why shouldn’t they? It’s in their favor to do so. However it’s clearly obvious that the actions of Palestinians (Hamas, Brigade, etc) and support for their “resistance fighters’ has been counter productive.

Years of attacks and counter attacks has done nothing to help the plight of Palestinians. If you want different results you have to change your actions. It’s ridiculous to expect things for you to change otherwise. It’s only compounding the years of previous mistakes of uncompromising and rejection all of which also are a direct result of current conditions of Palestinians today.

DEVILDOG SAY "Who cares about Quotes".

THEN DONT POST 2 PAGES OF THEM THEM!!!!! AND DEVILDOG THERE ARE EQUALLY AS MANY IF NOT MORE VIOLENT PASSAGES REGARDING PAGANS, NON-JEWS ETC.... IN THE BIBLE.........

You didn't want someone to say that Islam was intolerant based on "one Muslims perspective", therefore I gave you hundreds of quotes from Allah to prove it. Your retort is typical.
And if you think you can find stuff like that in the same volume in the bible then you are on crack. Why do Muslims have to say that? Why can't they just stick to the Islamic scriptures and answer the content of what they say? Do you think that by providing one out of context verse from the Bible that may seem violence, then Islam wins by default? Do you want to see the quotes regarding Fighting, Terrorism, War, Jihad, Martyrdom, Militants
Murder, Thievery, Deception, Megolamania, Demons, Morality, Money, Lust, Hell, the hate for Jews, hate for Christians, Racism, Women, Stupidity, Science? I guess not.

You guys are wasting your time. energy, and intelligence.

History proves that the Evil doers have always blamed others.

You cannot prevail in an cerebral debate with brain washed brain dead people who have been brought up to hate and only to hate.

There will never ever ever be a peace treaty twixt Israel and its enemies. The enemies will agree and then ignore all they said. Been there done that. Saddam aped the same actions.

Israel should turn its focus on total war against its enemies.

US should continue total war against its enemies.

Did not the unprovoked 9/11 attack prove that?

9/11 had been planned for many years. Way before Bush got in office.

An all out offensive against the enemies of all mankind should be supported and joined by every freedom loving nation worldwide.

I cannot abide the inane views of some persons I see in IR.

These are my thoughts. They will not change and I refuse to debate with those who refuse to see the truth.

Good advice. I just have a hard time reading lies without commenting.

I see becker you are continuing to tie Iraq with 9/11 and even though I agree on your post about Israel and its enemies I don’t think it takes a genius to figure out we were wrong on Iraq.

Look, if the information that’s led us into Iraq wasn’t legit why is it that we still can subscribe to it as a just war? Maybe, just maybe becker we here in the states have our own prejudices to deal with?

The day we start fighting terrorism, I will give Bush or whomever my total support, however I believe just as most in the world believes about Iraq, we did it for the oil, just as Russia and France did prior to our invasion. For profit, very productive. For war on terror, very counter-productive. We digress.

DVS is a Palestinian. That’s like trying to tell Al Qaeda that Bin Laden is wrong. They will never ever believe it. In as much, they will always subscribe to crazy half baked notions of justified violence against the innocent. This becker is your defining point in your post.

OOP..

If my statements could not permeate the thinking of someone with your evident intelligence, then my efforts have been in vain.

I have no more to add to this subject.

I know isn't it a shame? Especially after such a noble effort to "permeate" my thinking.

I'm sure you're gonna lose sleep over it becker. None the less, you're still an ok guy, just a little misguided on some issues.