Why the Anti-war movement was right! - Post-9/11 Era

Why the Anti-war movement was right!

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Posted by: Search4Truth

HUFFINGTON: Why the Anti-War Movement Was Right

By Arianna Huffington, AlterNet
April 16, 2003

The Bible tells us that pride goeth before the fall. In Iraq, it cameth right after it.

From the moment that statue of Saddam hit the ground, the mood around the Rumsfeld campfire has been all high-fives, I-told-you-sos, and endless smug prattling about how the speedy fall of Baghdad is proof positive that those who opposed the invasion of Iraq were dead wrong.

What utter nonsense. In fact, the speedy fall of Baghdad proves the anti-war movement was dead right.

The whole pretext for our unilateral charge into Iraq was that the American people were in imminent danger from Saddam and his mighty war machine. The threat was so clear and present that we couldn't even give inspectors searching for weapons of mass destruction – hey, remember those? – another 30 days, as France wanted.

Well, it turns out that, far from being on the verge of destroying Western civilization, Saddam and his 21st century Gestapo couldn't even muster a half-hearted defense of their own capital. The hawks' cakewalk disproves their own dire warnings; they can't have it both ways.

The invasion has proved wildly successful in one other regard: It has unified most of the world – especially the Arab world – against us. Back in 1991, more than a half-dozen Arab nations were part of our Desert Storm coalition. Operation Iraqi Freedom's "coalition of the willing" had zero. Not even the polygamous potentates of Kuwait – whose butts we saved last time out and who were most threatened by whatever threat Iraq still presented – would join us. And, I'm sorry, but substituting Bulgaria and the island of Tonga for Egypt and Oman is just not going to cut it when it comes to winning hearts and minds on the Arab street.

In fact, almost everything about the invasion – from the go-it-alone build-up to the mayhem the fall of Saddam has unleashed – has played right into the hands of those intent on demonizing our country. Islamic extremists must be having a field day signing up recruits for the holy war they're preparing to wage against us. Instead of Uncle Sam wants you, their recruiting posters feature a different kind of patriotic image: an American soldier ill-advisedly draping the American flag over Saddam's face.

The anti-war movement did not oppose the war out of fear that America was going to lose. It was the Bush administration's pathological and frantic obsession with an immediate, ****-the-consequences invasion that fueled the protests.

And please don't point to jubilant Iraqis dancing in the streets to validate the case for "pre-emptive liberation." You'd be doing the Baghdad Bugaloo too if the murderous tyrant who'd been eating off golden plates while your family starved finally got what was coming to him. It in no way proves that running roughshod over international law and pouring Iraqi oil – now brought to you by the good folks at Halliburton – onto the flames of anti-American hatred was a good idea. It wasn't before the war, and it still isn't now. The unintended consequences have barely begun to unfold.

And the idea that our slamdunk of Saddam actually proves the White House was right is particularly dangerous because it encourages the Wolfowitzes and the Perles and the Cheneys to argue that we should be invading Syria or Iran or North Korea or Cuba as soon as we catch our breath. They've tasted blood.

It's important to remember that the Arab world has seen a very different war than we have. They are seeing babies with limbs blown off, children wailing beside their dead mothers, Arab journalists killed by American tanks and bombers, holy men hacked to death and dragged through the streets. They are seeing American forces leaving behind a wake of destruction, looting, hunger, humiliation, and chaos.

Who's been handling our war PR, Osama bin Laden? The language and imagery are all wrong. Having Tom DeLay gush about our "army of virtue" at the same time we're blowing up mosques is definitely not sending the right message to a Muslim world already suspicious that we're waging a war on Islam.

Neither is Ari Fleischer's claim that the administration can't do anything to keep Christian missionaries – including those who have described the Islamic prophet Muhammad as a "demon-possessed pedophile" and a "terrorist" – from going on a holy crusade to Baghdad. You think the Arab world might take that the wrong way? If there is one thing that could bring Sunnis and Shiites together, it's the common hatred of evangelical zealots who denigrate their prophet.

And it doesn't help to have the American media referring to Jay Garner, the retired general Don Rumsfeld picked to oversee the rebuilding of Iraq, as "viceroy." It reeks of colonial imperialism. Why not just call him "Head Bwana?" Or "Garner of Arabia?" I didn't realize the Supreme Court had handed Bush a scepter to go along with the Florida recount.

The powerful role that shame and humiliation have played in shaping world history is considerable, but something the Bush team seems utterly clueless about. Which is why the anti-war movement must be stalwart in its refusal to be silenced or browbeaten by the gloating "I told you so" chorus on the right. On the contrary, it needs to make sure that the doctrine of preemptive invasion is forever buried in the sands of Iraq.

Especially as the administration, high on the heady fumes of Saddam's ouster, turns its covetous eyes on Syria. I give it less than a week before someone starts making the case that President Assad is the next, next Hitler.

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Posted by: Diogenes

quote:
Originally posted by Search4Truth
HUFFINGTON: Why the Anti-War Movement Was Right

By Arianna Huffington, AlterNet
April 16, 2003

The Bible tells us that pride goeth before the fall. In Iraq, it cameth right after it.

From the moment that statue of Saddam hit the ground, the mood around the Rumsfeld campfire has been all high-fives, I-told-you-sos, and endless smug prattling about how the speedy fall of Baghdad is proof positive that those who opposed the invasion of Iraq were dead wrong.

What utter nonsense. In fact, the speedy fall of Baghdad proves the anti-war movement was dead right.

The whole pretext for our unilateral charge into Iraq was that the American people were in imminent danger from Saddam and his mighty war machine. The threat was so clear and present that we couldn't even give inspectors searching for weapons of mass destruction – hey, remember those? – another 30 days, as France wanted.

Well, it turns out that, far from being on the verge of destroying Western civilization, Saddam and his 21st century Gestapo couldn't even muster a half-hearted defense of their own capital. The hawks' cakewalk disproves their own dire warnings; they can't have it both ways.

The invasion has proved wildly successful in one other regard: It has unified most of the world – especially the Arab world – against us. Back in 1991, more than a half-dozen Arab nations were part of our Desert Storm coalition. Operation Iraqi Freedom's "coalition of the willing" had zero. Not even the polygamous potentates of Kuwait – whose butts we saved last time out and who were most threatened by whatever threat Iraq still presented – would join us. And, I'm sorry, but substituting Bulgaria and the island of Tonga for Egypt and Oman is just not going to cut it when it comes to winning hearts and minds on the Arab street.

In fact, almost everything about the invasion – from the go-it-alone build-up to the mayhem the fall of Saddam has unleashed – has played right into the hands of those intent on demonizing our country. Islamic extremists must be having a field day signing up recruits for the holy war they're preparing to wage against us. Instead of Uncle Sam wants you, their recruiting posters feature a different kind of patriotic image: an American soldier ill-advisedly draping the American flag over Saddam's face.

The anti-war movement did not oppose the war out of fear that America was going to lose. It was the Bush administration's pathological and frantic obsession with an immediate, ****-the-consequences invasion that fueled the protests.

And please don't point to jubilant Iraqis dancing in the streets to validate the case for "pre-emptive liberation." You'd be doing the Baghdad Bugaloo too if the murderous tyrant who'd been eating off golden plates while your family starved finally got what was coming to him. It in no way proves that running roughshod over international law and pouring Iraqi oil – now brought to you by the good folks at Halliburton – onto the flames of anti-American hatred was a good idea. It wasn't before the war, and it still isn't now. The unintended consequences have barely begun to unfold.

And the idea that our slamdunk of Saddam actually proves the White House was right is particularly dangerous because it encourages the Wolfowitzes and the Perles and the Cheneys to argue that we should be invading Syria or Iran or North Korea or Cuba as soon as we catch our breath. They've tasted blood.

It's important to remember that the Arab world has seen a very different war than we have. They are seeing babies with limbs blown off, children wailing beside their dead mothers, Arab journalists killed by American tanks and bombers, holy men hacked to death and dragged through the streets. They are seeing American forces leaving behind a wake of destruction, looting, hunger, humiliation, and chaos.

Who's been handling our war PR, Osama bin Laden? The language and imagery are all wrong. Having Tom DeLay gush about our "army of virtue" at the same time we're blowing up mosques is definitely not sending the right message to a Muslim world already suspicious that we're waging a war on Islam.

Neither is Ari Fleischer's claim that the administration can't do anything to keep Christian missionaries – including those who have described the Islamic prophet Muhammad as a "demon-possessed pedophile" and a "terrorist" – from going on a holy crusade to Baghdad. You think the Arab world might take that the wrong way? If there is one thing that could bring Sunnis and Shiites together, it's the common hatred of evangelical zealots who denigrate their prophet.

And it doesn't help to have the American media referring to Jay Garner, the retired general Don Rumsfeld picked to oversee the rebuilding of Iraq, as "viceroy." It reeks of colonial imperialism. Why not just call him "Head Bwana?" Or "Garner of Arabia?" I didn't realize the Supreme Court had handed Bush a scepter to go along with the Florida recount.

The powerful role that shame and humiliation have played in shaping world history is considerable, but something the Bush team seems utterly clueless about. Which is why the anti-war movement must be stalwart in its refusal to be silenced or browbeaten by the gloating "I told you so" chorus on the right. On the contrary, it needs to make sure that the doctrine of preemptive invasion is forever buried in the sands of Iraq.

Especially as the administration, high on the heady fumes of Saddam's ouster, turns its covetous eyes on Syria. I give it less than a week before someone starts making the case that President Assad is the next, next Hitler.



A very interesting and encouraging posting Search4Truth--and as you are a New Yorker--it becomes more poignant for its cool-headed analysis as to the real criminals of this new contract killing diplomacy. We in Britain are bracing ourselves for blanket-bombing bullsh!t of propaganda to obliterate the truth of this war. My personal hope is that Blair will be pursued for his betrayal of the British people and removed from office, however I do understand that an honest politician is as rare as birds' teeth.

Good luck your end.
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Posted by: DaveDom

A war in 1991 that killed much of his army and destroyed much of the military! An uprising betrayed by the US, crushed, killing another quarter of a million men! 12 years of UK and US bombing anything that moved in the north and south! 12 years of sanctions degrading an already smashed military (and that killed half a million children!) Then just in case, weapons inspectors are sent back in for one last check!

Safe to go in now? Yep, they're defensless - lets BOMB!!!

I'd like to know why Blair is always so enthusiatic about waging war? Why he is such a fan of the right-wingers in the US. Why he joined the Labour party if he's a neo-conservative, thatcherite, neo-liberal at heart?

We have WMD in Britain. Any chance of a regime change?

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Posted by: Search4Truth

Don't worry DaveDom

GOD WILL JUDGE THEM ALL

we will have the last laugh.........I promise

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Posted by: Bebert

quote:
Originally posted by Search4Truth
HUFFINGTON: Why the Anti-War Movement Was Right

By Arianna Huffington, AlterNet
April 16, 2003

The Bible tells us that pride goeth before the fall. In Iraq, it cameth right after it.

From the moment that statue of Saddam hit the ground, the mood around the Rumsfeld campfire has been all high-fives, I-told-you-sos, and endless smug prattling about how the speedy fall of Baghdad is proof positive that those who opposed the invasion of Iraq were dead wrong.

What utter nonsense. In fact, the speedy fall of Baghdad proves the anti-war movement was dead right.



hmmm... I begin to understand how GWBs' administration see the new internal justice : ORDEAL.

Ordeal was an ancient system of justice...

Since God made us victorious in this battle, the right IS with us !

With ordeal, we dont need the UN, we dont need the International Criminal Court, no need to ratify international treaties...

Welcome to the XXIst century.
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Posted by: DaveDom

quote:
Originally posted by Bebert


hmmm... I begin to understand how GWBs' administration see the new internal justice : ORDEAL.

Ordeal was an ancient system of justice...

Since God made us victorious in this battle, the right IS with us !

With ordeal, we dont need the UN, we dont need the International Criminal Court, no need to ratify international treaties...

Welcome to the XXIst century.


You've hit the nail bang smack on the head there, mate.
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Posted by: frenchfries

quote:
Originally posted by Search4Truth
HUFFINGTON: Why the Anti-War Movement Was Right

...
It's important to remember that the Arab world has seen a very different war than we have. They are seeing babies with limbs blown off, children wailing beside their dead mothers, Arab journalists killed by American tanks and bombers, holy men hacked to death and dragged through the streets.....


Brilliant!
History will judge first.
God will judge after...
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Posted by: Charles

What a party you folks are having!

Great!

Yeah! Me too.

* * *
Look deeper boys!

I like how Huffington combined the dead kids, wailing mothers, and slaughtered clerics in one sentence with America!

And please, please. Stop using this international law argument. When there is no formal established code that applies to a particular context, the court relies upon precedent. When the US led an attack on Serbia for Kosovo, the French and Germans were gung ho. There was no UNSC resolution authorizing this (Russia would have vetoed - duh). So in fact France and the others have absolutely no qualms about using military force without UNSC authorization... Add to this the fact that 1441 was far stronger than the resolutions against Serbia in Kosovo.

Sorry. You can blow out the candles now. Its time for bed.

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Posted by: Grimminick

The Serbian-Bosnian conflict was totally different than Iraq. Civil war had erupted with genocida; activities reported - the UN went in. The attack on Iraq was entirely unprovoked committed by the dtrivew of one country to wage war at any cost and suck in a few allies on the way.

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Posted by: Rambo

quote:
Civil war had erupted with genocida; activities reported - the UN went in.


It was NATO that went in... without UN approval.


quote:
The attack on Iraq was entirely unprovoked


My a*ss. But you should know that. Or wait.. maybe not... you pump your head full of garbage all day long from those things that you call 'books' that you read.
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Posted by: Grimminick

I was referring to the UN peacekeeping forces in conjunction with references to the UN in previous posts.
Those things called "books" really do exist Rambo. Go in to one of your shops usually called "bookshops". Try something easy at first, perhaps from the children's section and work yourself up to small print.

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Posted by: Rambo

quote:
Those things called "books" really do exist Rambo


I have no doubts that they exist. I have no doubts that there have been books written on how to screw a chicken, too.

In either case, they're garbage.
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Posted by: Diogenes

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles
[B]What a party you folks are having!

Great!

Yeah! Me too.

* * *
Look deeper boys!

I like how Huffington combined the dead kids, wailing mothers, and slaughtered clerics in one sentence with America!


Your sensitivity is as flawed as your discernment of the different roles of UN and NATO played in Bosnia and Iraq.

"Look deeper boys!" What garbage skip are you looking deeper into?

I think you are deficient in the analytical department and wouldn't be able to distinguish the difference between a boiled egg and a bulldozer.

Are you and Rambo class-mates?

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Posted by: Rambo

quote:
I think you are deficient in the analytical department and wouldn't be able to distinguish the difference between a boiled egg and a bulldozer.


Analytical department? That's not for you to decide since your thoughts, mouth, and fingers are hard wired to the right side of your brain.

When exactly was it that you were behad by the illusion that the USA regarded the UNSC as the end-all when it came to military operations?
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Posted by: Charles

quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charles
[B]What a party you folks are having!
Great!
Yeah! Me too.
* * *
Look deeper boys!
I like how Huffington combined the dead kids, wailing mothers, and slaughtered clerics in one sentence with America!
Your sensitivity is as flawed as your discernment of the different roles of UN and NATO played in Bosnia and Iraq.
"Look deeper boys!" What garbage skip are you looking deeper into?
I think you are deficient in the analytical department and wouldn't be able to distinguish the difference between a boiled egg and a bulldozer.
Are you and Rambo class-mates?


Excellent!

Regarding boiled eggs and bulldozers, I still would posit the fact that France and Germany supported US led military action in KOSOVO without ANY UNSC resolution in support. Am I wrong?!?!?!?

So please delete all references throughout your posts to some respect for "international law" or "legal" basis for the current French position. Drop it. Get it out. Forget it. Delete it. Its just plain wrong.
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Posted by: nowar

Charles, I do not try to find excuses to France and Germany, but there was a war in Kosovo and if I remember - will try to find the official doc - NATO has been given the right by UN to enforce the agreement between FRY and NATO and another agreement - signed in Belgrade - which was included in two UN resolution about Kosovo/Balkans ......

But, again, there was a war and a genocide there which was not the case in Iraq one month ago .....

Another thing is if I remember well, under Clinton administration there has been a vote in US, by US, for US, giving the right to US gov to overthrow Saddam ...... long before the real start of that war and long before having a coalition to back it ......


Anyway, you all say that US gov decided to change, maybe France and Germany too .............

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Posted by: Charles

quote:
Originally posted by nowar
[B]Charles, I do not try to find excuses to France and Germany, but there was a war in Kosovo and if I remember - will try to find the official doc - NATO has been given the right by UN to enforce the agreement between FRY and NATO and another agreement - signed in Belgrade - which was included in two UN resolution about Kosovo/Balkans ......


OK. Please let me know if I'm wrong or didn't have my facts straight on Kosovo intervention without explicit UNSC authority to use force.

quote:
But, again, there was a war and a genocide there which was not the case in Iraq one month ago .....


I think Saddam killed in more people in Iraq than the serbs in Kosovo. Call it what you will...

quote:
Another thing is if I remember well, under Clinton administration there has been a vote in US, by US, for US, giving the right to US gov to overthrow Saddam ...... long before the real start of that war and long before having a coalition to back it ......


Dunno. Clinton or Bush? Which war? If it was Clinton in the mid 90's then it shows our weakness at the time for not acting immediately - perhaps out of concern for what the "world" thought? Or maybe Monica was a pacifist...

quote:
Anyway, you all say that US gov decided to change, maybe France and Germany too .............


Maybe. The US certainly has altered policies from a context of cold war confrontation, to the current state of affairs. Very specific changes that can explain new policies.

I'm not what major global geopolitical changes have occurred since Kosovo - late 90's (other than the US becoming a neo-fascist invader, killer of babies, etc.). But sure France/Germany has right to take any position they want. Lift sanctions against Iraq under Saddam, keep sanctions without Saddam, suspend sanctions cause they look cynical/stupid otherwise, etc. Whatever...
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Posted by: Diogenes

quote:
Originally posted by Charles


So please delete all references throughout your posts to some respect for "international law" or "legal" basis for the current French position. Drop it. Get it out. Forget it. Delete it. Its just plain wrong.


Sorry Buster,
You don't just wish it away because you do not want to acknowledge it--but 1441 required another resolution through the UN before military action became the only way to treat with Iraq.
The notion of international law as is the raison d'etre of the UN is to prevent an act of aggression by one state or country upon another.
The US pushed the UN aside in the case of Iraq, because it chooses to use the UN only when it is of little consequence--then it declares the UN indecisive and weak.
These are the bullyboy tactics of gangster diplomacy--sort of thing that was popular in Germany circa 1933-1945.
The US has shown no respect for international law and so has set the standard for international anarchy and non-conventional warfare for the future.
Enjoy your adolescence.
Reply To this Message

Posted by: Diogenes

quote:
Originally posted by Rambo


Analytical department? That's not for you to decide since your thoughts, mouth, and fingers are hard wired to the right side of your brain.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still have the ability to decide what it bullsh1t and what is relevant. Yours is the former--there saved you thinking about it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When exactly was it that you were behad by the illusion that the USA regarded the UNSC as the end-all when it came to military operations?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What the hell is "behad" when it's not with you?

The USA are not the prime movers on anything--not UNSC or international law--it is the group of gangsters in Washington who are leading the USA into hell and breaking all the rules.

What goes around comes around Dummy.

Be careful with the bulldozers--you may find the tracks a bit of a mouthful.
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Posted by: nowar

I said that I will try to find the docs for the UNSC ....


ABout Saddam, yes he killed people, everybody knows that and nobody did something to stop him .... but there was a WAR in Kosovo .....

Now this war as been "justified" by the "get rid of Iraq WMDs", enforcing 1441:

quote:
Al Jazeera: I would like to put it to you straight away the issue between you, the Bush Administration, and Iraq is not weapons of mass destruction. It is for you -- how to get rid of Saddam Hussein and his regime.

Rumsfeld: Well, wrong. It is about weapons of mass destruction . It is unquestionably about that . And the fact that for many years now the Iraqi regime led by Saddam Hussein has not been willing to cooperate with the United Nations resolutions. And the issue you cast as between the Bush Administration and the Iraqi government is really not the right construct. This is a matter that the world community has addressed. That is why there have been 16, now 17 resolutions by the United Nations Security Council. The last one was unanimous.

This is not a U.S.-Iraqi issue. This is an issue between the United Nations and the international community and a government that has consistently refused to stop its weapons of mass destruction program.



About the vote:

quote:
Al Jazeera: About trafficking with terrorist networks, I'll come to that later if I may. But if we look back, we find that three American Administrations -- George Bush, Sr., first Clinton, second Clinton -- when they were asked about the purpose of the sanctions regime against Iraq, whether it is to get rid of Saddam Hussein and change the regime in Iraq, they almost swore on the Bible saying that the purpose is not that, it is only for weapons of mass destruction. Now you say that you would like to see Saddam Hussein gone.

Rumsfeld: I think the world would like to see him gone. What happened in the second Clinton Administration, I think you're factually a little off, in the second Clinton Administration the Congress passed legislation that favored regime change in Iraq and the President signed it. So President Clinton and the United States government in toto decided that the only way to get Iraq to cooperate would be for Saddam Hussein to leave and his behavior in the intervening period has suggested that that was correct, and President Bush has followed on the policy of President Clinton.


...... by US, for US, long time ago ........ the war was already decided, whatever Saddam was ready to do or not .....


quote:
But sure France/Germany has right to take any position they want


Two thing: that's where the "you are with us or against us" come .... you have the right to take any position as long as it goes in US gov direction .... you go on the other one, face the consequence .....
that's what you call having the right to take any position they want ?? One guy has been kicked out some days ago because he was acting like that ......

About France/Russia:

quote:
France sides with US by supporting call to lift sanctions
By David Usborne in New York
23 April 2003


France proposed suspending sanctions against Iraq as soon as possible yesterday. The move seemed aimed equally at boosting the speed of reconstruction and mending some of the damage done to relations between Paris and Washington in the run-up to the war.

The surprise initiative came from the French ambassador to the UN, Jean-Marc de La Sabliθre. While America also urged an end to the sanctions last week, Russia and some other Security Council members would like to wait until UN inspectors have certified Iraq free of banned weapons.

"We should immediately suspend the sanctions," M. de la Sabliθre said after a meeting of the Council in New York. He added that the UN's oil-for-food scheme, which pays for humanitarian supplies from Iraq's crude oil sales, should be adjusted, "with a view of a phasing out of this programme".

Soon after the ambassador spoke, the French Foreign Minister, Dominique de Villepin, reasserted the new French position during a visit to Turkey. "We believe, of course respecting the international legality, we should as fast as possible try to lift these sanctions," M. de Villepin told reporters.

Before the outbreak of hostilities in Iraq, France and Russia were leading the anti-war camp in the Security Council and the bitter arguments left a deep chill on US-French relations. By siding with Washington now on this issue, France may be hoping to start a thaw.

When asked about the French manoeuvre, the Russian UN ambassador, Sergei Lavrov, said Moscow was "not at all opposed to the lifting of sanctions". But he said Russia still wanted UN inspectors to certify that Iraq had been disarmed of all weapons of mass destruction, as required under UN resolutions. "What we are insisting on is that Security Council resolutions must be implemented," he added.

France still spoke also last night of the need for UN inspectors to return to Iraq to help verify any evidence of weapons of mass destruction that might be found. M. de La Sabliθre said the presence of the UN inspectors, headed by Hans Blix, would be vital "so that the Iraqi disarmament could be internationally verified".

America remained cool on the idea of giving Mr Blix and his teams any kind of role in Iraq in seeking the banned weapons. This reflects the view of many in the Bush administration that the UN should be kept out of post-conflict Iraq as much as possible.

But the US ambassador publicly welcomed the shift from France on suspending sanctions, which were first imposed when Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990. Saying that the measures should be suspended as soon as possible, he added that the US was looking "to working together with the delegation of France and other delegations towards that end".

But diplomats said that it was likely to be at least a month before any agreement on ending sanctions is likely to emerge from the Council, which faces many other wrangles over Iraq. Not least will be overcoming US hostility to Mr Blix returning to Iraq. Without a compromise, Russia and others may hold up progress on sanctions.

The UN also faces long talks on the oil-for-food programme. Many Council members hostile to the war on Iraq are likely to favour maintaining the scheme – and thus UN control of Iraq's oil revenues – for some time.


......
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Posted by: Charles

quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes

Sorry Buster,
You don't just wish it away because you do not want to acknowledge it--but 1441 required another resolution through the UN before military action became the only way to treat with Iraq.
The notion of international law as is the raison d'etre of the UN is to prevent an act of aggression by one state or country upon another.
The US pushed the UN aside in the case of Iraq, because it chooses to use the UN only when it is of little consequence--then it declares the UN indecisive and weak.
These are the bullyboy tactics of gangster diplomacy--sort of thing that was popular in Germany circa 1933-1945.
The US has shown no respect for international law and so has set the standard for international anarchy and non-conventional warfare for the future.
Enjoy your adolescence.


LOL. I guess you didn't read my post very closely - buster...

My point was that it seems to me hypocritical, cynical, and worthless the argument that France put forward that US/UK action in Iraq was against International Law when just a few years ago France supported US led military action in Kosovo without explicit UNSC approval. Of course the UNSC never would have approved it because Russia would have vetoed any military action against their brother Serbs. So, please, delete it, remove it, forget it, etc. (although we are still waiting the results of nowars research into the matter to verify whether or not there was a UNSC resolution authorizing military action in Kosovo).

In any case, I think 1441 was plenty for me.
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Posted by: Americaaah

quote:
Originally posted by nowar


ABout Saddam, yes he killed people, everybody knows that and nobody did something to stop him ....



Hey noworth, WHO did nothing to stop the Dictator?

Now that the war is over, France is changing its tune toward the U.S. because they would like a piece of the 'action' in Iraq. Yeah, and I would like a threesome with Tiffani Thiessen and Uma Thurman but let me tell you, it just ain't gonna happen!

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Posted by: nowar

quote:
Originally posted by Americaaah


Hey noworth, WHO did nothing to stop the Dictator?




you should read when you quote a post from someone

oops, sorry, I forgot that you are still searching

how's your brother ? you know, Rambo ,re-oops, of course you can't ..... re-sorry
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Posted by: Americaaah

quote:
Originally posted by nowar



you should read when you quote a post from someone

oops, sorry, I forgot that you are still searching

how's your brother ? you know, Rambo ,re-oops, of course you can't ..... re-sorry


What on earth are you babbling about, noworth?


___
Now that the war is over, France is changing its tune toward the U.S. because they would like a piece of the 'action' in Iraq. Yeah, and I would like a threesome with Tiffani Thiessen and Uma Thurman but let me tell you, it just ain't gonna happen!
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Posted by: Diogenes

How strange that no WMDs have been found to date?
How odd that the coalition forces do not wish an independent body (especially) the UN to assist in the search for WMDS, yet know full well, that everyone who has some experience of political chicanery will suspect "a plant" after such a passage of time?
How strange that Iraq was supposed to be an IMMEDIATE threat to the US and UK?
What has happened to all the information gathered from satellite surveillance and spy-on-the-ground sources that made the evidence for WMDs so incontrovertible and urgent?
How convenient that the Pentagon declared this war to be one where "psychology" and "propaganda" will play a major part?
Whose intelligence and credulity is being tested beyond reason in this "let's write history before it arrives" age of the Superliar Power?
How did this dangerously aggressive and threatening Iraq become a defenceless, third-world power overnight, requiring only two of the ten divisions deployed, to subdue?

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Posted by: DaveDom

quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes
How convenient that the Pentagon declared this war to be one where "psychology" and "propaganda" will play a major part?

How did this dangerously aggressive and threatening Iraq become a defenceless, third-world power overnight, requiring only two of the ten divisions deployed, to subdue?


The psychology and propoganda were aimed squarely at the American and British public. And a great job it did too. For a moment there I was convinced that Iraq had huge stockpiles of planet endangering armed and ready WMD! Then I woke up and was shocked to find America was dropping some smirking mother of all bombs onto a country that had been starved and bombed and sanctioned for over a decade. No contest really.
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Posted by: Rambo

quote:
How strange that no WMDs have been found to date?


Strange? There's nothing strange about it all given that the search for them has only just begun.

Your head has become infiltrated by paranoid delusions from all those bad LSD trips.


quote:
The psychology and propoganda were aimed squarely at the American and British public


No sh*it.... from the scum bag maggot carnage, like yourself.
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Posted by: frenchfries

quote:
Originally posted by Charles


OK. Please let me know if I'm wrong or didn't have my facts straight on Kosovo intervention without explicit UNSC authority to use force.



No, you are right.

But 3 days after the first strikes, Russia, with Bielorussia, asked the UN counsil to condemn the Kosovo's intervention. On 15 members, 2 only disagreed: China and Namibia.
This intervention was motivated by pure humanitarian reasons and was a successfull attempt to stop a war .

Regarding Iraq, how many members supported USA ?
Are you going to say seriously that war on Iraq was motivated by humanitarian reasons too?
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Posted by: Diogenes

quote:
Originally posted by Rambo


Strange? There's nothing strange about it all given that the search for them has only just begun.

Your head has become infiltrated by paranoid delusions from all those bad LSD trips.




No sh*it.... from the scum bag maggot carnage, like yourself.


Natural history is proved wrong--you Neanderthals didn't die out--your language has regressed a little wildly, but can just be understood.

Not thinking yet though, that's bad news for your survival.

Now buy some gloves--this'll stop your knuckles getting grazed on the sidewalk.

PS. In a millennium or two you might even subscribe something intelligent for others to consider. OOO! OOO! Raaammbohh
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Posted by: Charles

quote:
Originally posted by frenchfries


No, you are right.

But 3 days after the first strikes, Russia, with Bielorussia, asked the UN counsil to condemn the Kosovo's intervention. On 15 members, 2 only disagreed: China and Namibia.
This intervention was motivated by pure humanitarian reasons and was a successfull attempt to stop a war .

Regarding Iraq, how many members supported USA ?
Are you going to say seriously that war on Iraq was motivated by humanitarian reasons too?


It sounds to me that the intervention in Kosovo was even more strongly opposed than Iraq. In Iraq the UNSC didn't make a peep.

No resolutions to condemn the act. Or did I miss it because the media forgot to mention it to the brainwashed American public?

Was there a UNSC resolution condemning the USA? so I guess if we want to get back to this issue of legality, US/UK actions would only be illegal if the UNSC said they were. I don't think they ever did.
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Posted by: Americaaah

quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes


Natural history is proved wrong--you Neanderthals didn't die out--your language has regressed a little wildly, but can just be understood.

Not thinking yet though, that's bad news for your survival.

Now buy some gloves--this'll stop your knuckles getting grazed on the sidewalk.

PS. In a millennium or two you might even subscribe something intelligent for others to consider. OOO! OOO! Raaammbohh


It is perfectly obvious that no one on this thread is going to be swayed by anything either side fires off in the form of 'evidence.' Minds are made up and as pointless as these arguments are, they are just as mesmerizing to read.

That said, GO, U.S.A.

___
"Sometimes, There's No Substitute for U.S. Might"
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