The Muslim Arab war cry of ‘right of return’ tugs at the heartstrings of liberals and the media. Unfortunately, no one seems to realize that this ‘right of return’ demanded by the Muslim Arabs is not a true right of return, nor do they want it to be applied universally. So let’s examine this whole idea of ‘right of return’ in the harsh light of fairness and see who gets to return where.
According to the Muslim Arabs, there is no time limit on the ‘right of return.’ I happen to agree. Anyone who was forced from their homes (forced -- not voluntarily left) should be allowed to return. Also, according to the Muslim Arabs, one’s descendants inherit the right of return. I agree wholeheartedly.
Therefore, let’s examine the Muslim Arab version of ‘right of return’ in light of the latest Arab Summit held in Tunis recently. Cagily, perhaps too cagily, the wording in the preamble of the ‘Tunis Declaration’ seeks to lull the world into thinking that they are a bunch of peace-loving, law-abiding non-fascist, non-aggressive, non-dictatorships and non-tyrannies whose only goal is sweetness and light and not world domination and subjugation to Islam (1). And while the actual points made in the declaration push a decidedly biased agenda contrary to the preamble, the preamble itself is part of this declaration, so let’s apply it in the evenhanded manner in which they want the civilized world to believe is their goal. (In other words, let’s make them put their oil money where their mouths are.)
In the preamble, the following is declared: "Reaffirming our attachment to the founding principles of the Arab League and the objectives of its charter, as well as the noble humanitarian values consecrated by the United Nations' charter and all provisions of international legality."
How blithely they toss that off. Maybe they figured that no one would look up the Arab League Charter. However, I did and learned that it is based upon an earlier agreement, from 1944, called ‘The Alexandria Protocol.’ (2)
Now the Alexandria Protocol is a very interesting document that seems to contradict the image that the Arab League tried to project at their May 2004 pow-wow. In this Alexandria Protocol, section 5 is called ‘Special Resolution Concerning Palestine and states the following: "...providing for the cessation of Jewish immigration, the preservation of Arab lands, and the achievement of independence for Palestine." (So how come no Arabs were screaming about occupation and humiliation, and demanding their own State of Palestine from 1948 to 1967, when Egypt ruled Gaza and Jordan controlled Judea and Samaria?)
Notice that the date of this Alexandria Protocol, on which the Arab League is based, and upon which the 2004 Tunis Declaration cites as their basis (albeit convolutedly), comes before the UN mandate creating Israel. This means that the UN Mandate nullifies the above-quoted section, which oh-so-diplomatically called for the prevention of a State of Israel and the prevention of Jews returning to their aboriginal homeland.
One can see that the 2004 Tunis Preamble is meant to confuse because it endorses a Judenrein Middle East by reference to some long forgotten documents (in Western memories but certainly not Arab‘s), and yet calls for "...humanitarian values consecrated by the United Nations' charter and all provisions of international legality."
So let’s look at those ‘humanitarian values’ cited in the 2004 Tunis Preamble, which reference UN mandates and international law. Since they do not specify anything in particular, I am choosing to look at the 'UN Fact Sheet No.9 (Rev.1), The Rights of Indigenous Peoples' (3).
One does not even need to read the meat of this; the first sentence of the introduction is enough. It states "An objective...is the promotion and protection of the rights of indigenous people."
And while the Arabs occupying Israeli land in Gaza, Judea and Samaria are bellowing about ’occupation’ and committing genocide-bombings to prove they are indigenous (despite their own statements to the contrary (4)), one of their respected own proved last year that the Jewish people are the aboriginal inhabitants. (And the Tunis Declaration of 2004 states its support of the rights of indigenous people by its endorsement of UN and international law.)
To refresh your memories, this highly respected Arab is Dr. Nabil Hilmi, Dean of the Faculty of Law at the University of al-Zaqaziq. He made a statement in the August 9, 2003 edition of the Egyptian weekly al-Ahram al-Arabi that he takes as fact the Bible’s account of the Exodus. Because of this, he proposed suing every Jew on the planet for a bajillion dollars to pay for The Exodus. The suit, he said, "...is based on what is written in the Torah. It can be found in Exodus, [Chapter] 12, verses 35 through 36…"(5)
This means that one of the Arab world’s leading scholars takes as fact The Hebrew Bible and is willing to present it as incontrovertible evidence in a court of law. This also means that he can be the chief witness for the Jews of today who are the descendents of the indigenous people (as proven in that incontrovertible book of historical fact -- The Bible) in not merely what is now called Israel, but also Jordan, parts of Syria, Lebanon and other places.
Therefore, if the Arab League really means what it says, they should immediately evacuate all the lands stolen from the Hebrew peoples, and return and restore our holy sites, to include, in the disputed territories and Israel: the entire Temple Mount in Jerusalem, the 38,000 tombstones on the Mount of Olives removed by the Jordanians for use as paving stones and urinals, The Tomb of Joseph, The Cave of the Patriarchs, and The Tomb of Rachel (6). And while they’re at it, let them return Medina to the Jews! (7)
(4) "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism." Zahir Muhsein, PLO executive committee member, in an interview with the Dutch newspaper "Trouw" March 31, 1977 and http://www.paktoday.com/expert.htm
Israel is but 2% of the entire ME which is primarily Arab. Why these nations who sit and complain about Palestinian conditions refuse to accept these refugees is beyond reason.
When Jordan had the West Bank, they created these refugee camps. At that time these refugees weren't given full citizenship from 48 - 67. They couldn't vote until after the war of 67. This was a right Israel gave to them after the war.
There are many issues among Arabs I can bring up that somehow contradicts all their concern about Palestinians and their living conditions. Those Palestinians should be living in the surround Arab states by now. In that not being the case, there's no excuse.
oneofpeace said this in post #6 : When Jordan had the West Bank, they created these refugee camps. At that time these refugees weren't given full citizenship from 48 - 67. They couldn't vote until after the war of 67. This was a right Israel gave to them after the war.
The Palestinians in the occupied territories, AFAIK, have no right to vote in Israeli elections. If you are referring to what came at of Oslo in 1993 - that they gained the right to have their own elections - then yes.
IsraelIs4Ever said this in post #5 : Now that we won't be interupted by you again perhaps other people would like to comment.
How can anyone call on Israel to accept 5 million Arabs when that would mean the end of Israel? It is unrealistic and will never happen.
here is the question about all the problem
how could a people's right mean the end of a state ??
there is 2 possibilities :
1- this is not a right but bullsh!t
2- the state is illegal
only one possibility is right
there is only 1 truth , and it says that ISRAEL IS ILLEGAL !!
the land of palestine is for the palestinians
how could a people's right mean the end of a state ??
this is not a right but bullsh!t
I would think that even you coud see how it could mean the end of a state. If 5 million arabs were allowed to relocate inside Israel, it would mean that Israel would no longer be a Jewish state. It would be an arab state. They would outnumber Jews. How difficult is that to understand?
quote:
the state is illegal
Nothing illegal about it. Israel is soverign country afforded all the rights of any other nation.
IsraelIs4ever it seems that it is difficult for u to understand me
i didn't ask my question to hear an answer from a smart person like u !!
i asked my question to expose the problem and i answered myself but u didn't notice or u don't want to notice my dear friend u are denying the contradiction between a people's right and the state of Israel
ur logic says that Israel is legal and there is a right of return , there is no contradiction , but if they return that means the end of Israel , so let them live in the arab countries
i tell u once again : only one possibility is right , the other is wrong !!
here is the question about all the problem
how could a people's right mean the end of a state ??
there is 2 possibilities :
1- this is not a right but bullsh!t
2- the state is illegal
only one possibility is right
there is only 1 truth , and it says that ISRAEL IS ILLEGAL !!
the land of palestine is for the palestinians
Illegal under what body of law? Be specific please.
I think everyone in this situation has to give a little.
1. Middle east countries don't care about the Palestinians. Its just a common convenient excuse to unitedly hate Israel.
2. Anyone *****ing about Israel stealing land, should then tell Israels neighboring countries to stop attacking Israel then. Israel taking their land is a consequence of attacking them. Seems like an excellent deterent to me.
3. Palestinians have to form a reasonable governement, and rid itself of any terrorist organizations. Its only keeping them down and hurting them.
4. Israel has to give a little. Allow Palestinians freedom and access to former areas, and jobs. Take down the wall, (which has proven to stop over 90% or terrosist attacks since its inception), but this I can only ask of them to do, once terrorist actions cease. Israel has to learn as well as Palestinians, to just coincide with one anothers race. Illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinians lands MUST come down. I truly believe any Israeli who disagree's with this is just being selfish. I can't see that action as being fair.
For once I agree with Michel, it will never happen this way. Why, because there is no logic when dealing with Arabs on this issue. Irrationality and uncompromising will is the order of the day for many of them. Michel is a prime example of such and the only way to restore any sort of peace is for that wall to go up,… just as it has.
Whether or not it’s in Palestinian territory can be remedied afterwards through political means.
The wall has to go up, there is no other option to quail the violence.
Once the violence has diminished, the negotiations must start
Whatever births from negotiations, the wall can never come down because any agreement will inevitably be rejected by Palestinian militants.
Unfortunately I do not believe that peace can be achieved between these two nations nor with most of Israel’s neighboring Arabs. The hate being systemically embedded in Arabs children will ultimately prove to be their own demise and possibly that of the entire region but I don’t think they would even care as long as they can take Israel with them.
Make no mistake about it. Read Michel’s posts and his words. This is the attitude of those in the region concerning Israel. From very young ages they are taught to passionately hate Israel. For many of them, nothing short of Israel’s demise will ever satisfy their appetites. It is this same insatiable appetite that has created the dire conditions for Palestinians today and from what continues to be demonstrated, they’ve learned very little from their past mistakes.
Sure, there’s plenty of blame to go around. But how do you negotiate with the nonnegotiable? How do you compromise with those whom refuse to compromise? In this Michel is right. It is only but a dream, a dream that is fueled by hopes resonating from a nightmare.
oneofpeace said this in post #25 : For once I agree with Michel, it will never happen this way. Why, because there is no logic when dealing with Arabs on this issue. Irrationality and uncompromising will is the order of the day for many of them. Michel is a prime example of such and the only way to restore any sort of peace is for that wall to go up,… just as it has.
Whether or not it’s in Palestinian territory can be remedied afterwards through political means.
The wall has to go up, there is no other option to quail the violence.
Once the violence has diminished, the negotiations must start
Whatever births from negotiations, the wall can never come down because any agreement will inevitably be rejected by Palestinian militants.
Unfortunately I do not believe that peace can be achieved between these two nations nor with most of Israel’s neighboring Arabs. The hate being systemically embedded in Arabs children will ultimately prove to be their own demise and possibly that of the entire region but I don’t think they would even care as long as they can take Israel with them.
Make no mistake about it. Read Michel’s posts and his words. This is the attitude of those in the region concerning Israel. From very young ages they are taught to passionately hate Israel. For many of them, nothing short of Israel’s demise will ever satisfy their appetites. It is this same insatiable appetite that has created the dire conditions for Palestinians today and from what continues to be demonstrated, they’ve learned very little from their past mistakes.
Sure, there’s plenty of blame to go around. But how do you negotiate with the nonnegotiable? How do you compromise with those whom refuse to compromise? In this Michel is right. It is only but a dream, a dream that is fueled by hopes resonating from a nightmare.
i am in total agreement with your thinking,,and its a shame.......
1. Middle east countries don't care about the Palestinians. Its just a common convenient excuse to unitedly hate Israel.
Not sure about that one, probably true in most cases.
quote:
2. Anyone *****ing about Israel stealing land, should then tell Israels neighboring countries to stop attacking Israel then. Israel taking their land is a consequence of attacking them. Seems like an excellent deterent to me.
What about settlements? And why should Palestinians compensate for wars between Israel and the surrounding Arab countries?
quote:
3. Palestinians have to form a reasonable governement, and rid itself of any terrorist organizations. Its only keeping them down and hurting them.
Agreed - but can they afford civil war? It's a lot easier said than done.
quote:
4. Israel has to give a little. Allow Palestinians freedom and access to former areas, and jobs. Take down the wall, (which has proven to stop over 90% or terrorist attacks since its inception), but this I can only ask of them to do, once terrorist actions cease. Israel has to learn as well as Palestinians, to just coincide with one anothers race. Illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinians lands MUST come down. I truly believe any Israeli who disagree's with this is just being selfish. I can't see that action as being fair.
At least you've got an open mind, which can't be said for a lot of Zionists here. I applaud you for that.
What about settlements? And why should Palestinians compensate for wars between Israel and the surrounding Arab countries?
Well you should have read a couple times in my earlier posts that I state that Palestinians shouldn't lose their land. But this brings me back to the point of other countries really don't give a ratts butt about the Palestinains land, its just a common reason to hate Israel. I mean, why protest Israel when Lebanon refuses Palestinians to own land even from marriage? Lebanon has hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in refugee camps. For them and other countries to complain of Israel is only one thing. Hypocritical.
quote:
Agreed - but can they afford civil war? It's a lot easier said than done.
[/B]
What, a war against Israel is less risky?? This almost sounds like just trying to excuse terrorism. They should just denounce terrorism, and I'd say they're on the road to freedom.
Well you should have read a couple times in my earlier posts that I state that Palestinians shouldn't lose their land. But this brings me back to the point of other countries really don't give a ratts butt about the Palestinains land, its just a common reason to hate Israel. I mean, why protest Israel when Lebanon refuses Palestinians to own land even from marriage? Lebanon has hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in refugee camps. For them and other countries to complain of Israel is only one thing. Hypocritical.
The only reason I mentioned settlements is that you said the only reason Israel takes land is because of Arab countries invading Israel. Clearly, this is not the case with settlements. There has not been an Israel-Arab war for over 20 years now, yet the settlement activity is still on the increase.
I would also like you to comment on why you think it is fair that the palestinians should compensate land as a result of wars involving Israel and the Arab countries surrounding it.
And you mention the fact that Lebanon refuses palestinians land even through marriage, yet you leave out the fact Israel passed this very same law last year.
One last thing. The treatment of the Palestinians by the Arab countries is another matter and if you want to discuss it more open up a new thread on it. Two wrongs don't make a right. Now please stick to the subject.
quote:
What, a war against Israel is less risky?? This almost sounds like just trying to excuse terrorism. They should just denounce terrorism, and I'd say they're on the road to freedom.
Even if they denounced it more often, it wouldn't change anything. They can't stop Hamas they are the group with all the money and weapons and they are growing very fast. The Palestinians don't rule themselves so they can't do anything about it. If Israel gave statehood to the Palestinians then perhaps they could start cracking down on terror. But until that happens, and Israel remains in control of them, then nothing will happen. Until Israel give them their state the Palestinians will stick together and wouldn't dare risk civil war.
The Gog from Magog war that is alluded to in the Qur'an was prophesized by Ezekiel, Isaiah, Daniel, and John 600 to 1200 years before Muhammad dusted off Qusayy's religious scam and perpetrated his fraud on humanity. The war is started when Islamic nations sign a treaty with Israel in the spirit of Hudaybiyah. According to the predictions, the spirit that possessed Muhammad , will turn on Islam. Five out of every six Muslims will die--and the dogma of Islam along with them. A half a billion non-Muslims will also die.
Hudaybiyah is the treaty that Mo broke with the Meccans. He, of coarse had a Qur'an revelation that states that all treaties between Muslims and Non-Muslims are not binding on the Muslims. In ’98 Arafat said on Egyptian Orbit TV, “My signature on the Oslo accords was a setup, just like Muhammad’s non-belligerence pact with Jewish tribes at Hudaybiyah.’ Arafat told his audience, ‘When Muhammad’s forces grew strong enough, he reneged on the pact, and surprised and slaughtered the Jews. Muhammad established the principle that lies and the disregard of signed agreements are legitimate acts if they are committed for the glory of Islam.’”
Muslim nations have violated every agreement they’ve signed—in fact, they take pride in doing so. Islam is built on deceit and deception so to trust them may be a death sentence. Israel knows what they are doing. They seem to be the only ones who do. It's a situation that must be handled within AZ. I don't think one should expect the world to continue to tolerate their non sense. It is a terribly sad situation. Their oppression is a direct result of Islam, and yet another reason to expose and reject it.
Your opinions on Islam are redundent and unrealistic. Islam has proven to be the greatest realigion to have ever blessed the earth by purity simplicity and clarity. I however see this as besides the point. The right of return for Palestinians to their ancestral homland is beyond debate it is an unconditional request that will in the end meterialise. This goes for ALL Palestinians both Muslim and Christian this is not just a Muslim problem it is a Arab problem and I believe that Israel in the end is doomed. History will prove that ALL those who have illegally colonised Arab land will in the end loose just as the crusaders did. This is not wishful thinking this is fact. Israels only protector is the USA and History also teaches us that all superpowers in the end will fall the same will apply to the united states once this happens i am afraid that what people call Israel today will once again become Palestine. I say this not out of hatred for the Jewish people on the contrary Palestine and the Arab nation have in history been the true protectors of the Jewish and Christian faith Zionism has destroyed this....
Your opinions on Islam are redundent and unrealistic. Islam has proven to be the greatest realigion to have ever blessed the earth by purity simplicity and clarity. I however see this as besides the point.
I completely agree with his views on Islam. Just because Islam has lots of followers doesn't mean it's peaceful. It simply reflects the fact that Islam is devoid of choice.
Bukhari V4B52N260: “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’”
quote:
The right of return for Palestinians to their ancestral homland is beyond debate it is an unconditional request that will in the end meterialise. This goes for ALL Palestinians both Muslim and Christian this is not just a Muslim problem it is a Arab problem and I believe that Israel in the end is doomed. History will prove that ALL those who have illegally colonised Arab land will in the end loose just as the crusaders did. This is not wishful thinking this is fact. Israels only protector is the USA and History also teaches us that all superpowers in the end will fall the same will apply to the united states once this happens i am afraid that what people call Israel today will once again become Palestine. I say this not out of hatred for the Jewish people on the contrary Palestine and the Arab nation have in history been the true protectors of the Jewish and Christian faith Zionism has destroyed this....
An interesting analysis..in fact a lot of it makes sense, in your opinion how long will it be till America is no longer a superpower able enough to fully support Israel?
You cannot compare Islam (A religion) with (Israel a country). Islam as a religion does not support terror. Individuals who abuse and use their religion as a reason for terror however is another issue. The majority of Muslims are normal people believe me i am one of them.
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"
Unfortunatly some muslims have indeed transgressed the limits. The world media only ever focuses on the evils done by Muslims. The fact remains what we today call the "Christian" world consists of very few people who actually believe the Christian faith. On the contrary the majority of those in the Muslim world are strong believers in their faith. Thus any evil done in the muslim world will be carried out by someone who believes he/she believes the teachings of Islam. I cannot say the same for the western world where murder rape theft and sinning in general and the collapse of humane social practice is commonplace. Because none of these people have the faith in anything we cannot attribute their violent or criminal nature with any faith.... although these acts you find in the west are just as disturbing as a muslim killing somone in the name of religion..... I hope you understand what im getting at. In the end evil is not based on religion or faith but is based on an individual with the insanity to carry out such acts....
"...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people...(The Noble Quran, 5:32)"
In the eyes of Allah all innocent "souls" are scared to Allah thus as Allah tells us the murder of his children is condemned in the most caustic of terms:
"It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things); And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just. God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong. (The Noble Quran, 60:7-9)"
DvsBlue said this in post #34 : Your opinions on Islam are redundent and unrealistic. Islam has proven to be the greatest realigion to have ever blessed the earth by purity simplicity and clarity.
They aren't my opinions. Read and you will find the truth also. Islam is the worst fraud ever bestowed on humankind. Period! If you wish to engage about this topic, go to the proper forum and I will show you where you are wrong.
I however see this as besides the point. The right of return for Palestinians to their ancestral homland is beyond debate it is an unconditional request that will in the end meterialise. This goes for ALL Palestinians both Muslim and Christian this is not just a Muslim problem it is a Arab problem and I believe that Israel in the end is doomed.
After reading about the false relgion of Islam, you should pick up a Bible. It will tell you that Israel will win the Magog war regardless of the assault from Muslims.
History will prove that ALL those who have illegally colonised Arab land will in the end loose just as the crusaders did. This is not wishful thinking this is fact.
Who is ILLEGALLY colonising Arab land? Which land? I don't suspect you know the history of the people known as Palestineans.
Israels only protector is the USA and History also teaches us that all superpowers in the end will fall the same will apply to the united states once this happens i am afraid that what people call Israel today will once again become Palestine.
When was it EVER Palestine?
I say this not out of hatred for the Jewish people on the contrary Palestine and the Arab nation have in history been the true protectors of the Jewish and Christian faith Zionism has destroyed this....
That was a joke, right? If not, I can't imagine a more ridiculous comment.
You cannot compare Islam (A religion) with (Israel a country). Islam as a religion does not support terror. Individuals who abuse and use their religion as a reason for terror however is another issue. The majority of Muslims are normal people believe me i am one of them.
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"
Unfortunatly some muslims have indeed transgressed the limits. The world media only ever focuses on the evils done by Muslims. The fact remains what we today call the "Christian" world consists of very few people who actually believe the Christian faith. On the contrary the majority of those in the Muslim world are strong believers in their faith. Thus any evil done in the muslim world will be carried out by someone who believes he/she believes the teachings of Islam. I cannot say the same for the western world where murder rape theft and sinning in general and the collapse of humane social practice is commonplace. Because none of these people have the faith in anything we cannot attribute their violent or criminal nature with any faith.... although these acts you find in the west are just as disturbing as a muslim killing somone in the name of religion..... I hope you understand what im getting at. In the end evil is not based on religion or faith but is based on an individual with the insanity to carry out such acts....
"...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people...(The Noble Quran, 5:32)"
In the eyes of Allah all innocent "souls" are scared to Allah thus as Allah tells us the murder of his children is condemned in the most caustic of terms:
"It may be that God will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For God has power (over all things); And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just. God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong. (The Noble Quran, 60:7-9)"
I hope this sheds light somehow...
Tell ya what I'll give you a chance here to prove your point. Here are some quotes from the Islamic scriptures that "distress" me, please answer them.
Qur’an 2:96: “And you will find the Jews the greediest of mankind for life and greedier than the idolaters.”
Qur’an 2:171: “The likeness of the disbelievers is one who shouts to one who cannot hear. They are deaf, dumb, and blind. They make no sense.”
Qur’an 3:85: “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who are losers.”
Qur’an 5:63: “Why do not the rabbis and the priests forbid their evil-speaking and their devouring of illicit gain? Verily evil is their handiwork.”
Qur’an 6:39: “Those who deny Our revelations are deaf and dumb in darkness. Allah will send these people astray.”
Qur’an 9:5: “Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, lie in wait and ambush them.”
Qur’an 33:19: “The disbelievers – Allah makes their deeds fruitless.”
Qur’an 51:56-57: “I have created jinn [demons] and men only to worship Me. I do not want anything from them.”
Bukhari V3B48N826: “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”
Bukhari V4B52N260: “The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’”
Bukhari V6B60N473: “Every created soul has his place written for him either in Paradise or in the Hell Fire. His happy or miserable fate is predetermined for him.”
Bukhari V9B89N256: “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is a black Ethiopian slave whose head looks like a raisin.”
Ishaq 281:“The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.”
Tabari VII:6: “When the Apostle came to Medina he was fifty-three.”
Tabari IX:128: “When the Prophet married Aisha, she was very young and not yet ready for consummation.” This is how it happened:
Tabari IX:131: “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”
Ishaq 327: “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”
WOW antizionist thats alot to take on seeing as im not an Islamic scholor I will take quotes you have given me an analyse them to the best of my ability and return to you with an answer Please be patient as you have posted many many quotes which for some I have no answer as im not really an Islamic scholor so bare with me antizionist First I will like to answer devildog....
YOU SAID:
"They aren't my opinions. Read and you will find the truth also. Islam is the worst fraud ever bestowed on humankind. Period! If you wish to engage about this topic, go to the proper forum and I will show you where you are wrong. "
I SAY:
Bring it on I will be happy to debate this subject with you expect a mail from me soon as i believe Islam is the truth and the light to salvation. Even your bible predicts the comming of Islam and the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) your own bible proves Islam authenticity. This however is another point I will get back to you on that one so expect an e-mail from me soon....
YOU SAID:
"After reading about the false relgion of Islam, you should pick up a Bible. It will tell you that Israel will win the Magog war regardless of the assault from Muslims."
I SAY:
I have picked up the Bible and have compared many passages both in the bible and the holy Quran. It has only made my faith in Islam even stronger... Also note I will mail you in response to ALL your opinions on Islam first i will like to deal with the Palestinian issue as such an analysis of Islam is beyond the scope of this one forum i.e. I have a lot of typing to do.
YOU SAID:
Who is ILLEGALLY colonising Arab land? Which land? I don't suspect you know the history of the people known as Palestineans.
I SAY:
Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately after its boundaries and its characteristics - including its name in Arabic, Filastin - became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance. The history of Palestine begins with the history of the cannanites up until the present day. The Jews are only a small chapter in the history of Palestine as the Jews really didnt have what we can call a civilisation as they ruled over only a FRACTION of ancient Palestine for a limited time.The kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their claim on Palestine, endured for only about 73 years as opposed to the Arab Muslim rule which is over 1500 years old. There is more of an Islamic Christian and Roman character to Palestine than there is Jewish Character although the Zionists are attempting to Judaize the land. Therefore the Zionists cannot base a claim on 73 years of History remember the history of the prophets from Abraham to Mohammed is the history and heritage of the Muslims also. If we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David's conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at a 414 year Jewish rule as opposed to over 1500 Arab Muslim rule (not mentioning the earlier Arab tribes which existed in Palestine way before any religion of that area). Palestine has always had an Arab majority before the Zionist colonialist conquest of the land which saw the uprooting of 1000's of indiginous Palestinians from their ancestral homeland. If you require more evidence to refute the founding Zionist myths of "Israel" I will be happy to answer any questions you may have as i am sure history has all the answer for me.
YOU SAID
"When was it EVER Palestine?"
I SAY:
Read what i have stated above!
YOU SAID:
"That was a joke, right? If not, I can't imagine a more ridiculous comment."
The Palestinians are those people who reside in Palestine and who have a history in Palestine Palestinians are thoese who decend from the civilisation which were once founded in ancient Palestine these include: Pagans, converts to christianity, decendents of the Arabs, Greeks, persians, Samerians and canaanite tribes (as many countries people are made up of different historic civilisations). These civilisations were additions to the parent tree of canaan. The Arab invaders of the 7th century made muslim convert of many natives although many christians and Jews kept their faith. These Arabs intermarried with the natives with the result of the complete ARABIZATION of Palestine (LIKE MOST OTHER ARAB COUNTRIES WHICH WERE ARABIZED) thus we cannot tell where the canaanites leave off and the Arabs begin.
Therefore Mr.Devildog the Palestinians are the decendents of the civilisations which existed in Palestine you will be suprised to know that some Palestinians are decendents of the crusaders some are of Hebrew Jewish origin some Pagan the Christian Palestinians are also an integral part of Palestinian society. need i say more?
That is ludicrous. Ilah is the Arabic word for "god". Allah is his name. Yahweh is the name of the God that inspired the Hebrew Bible.
"allah" in Hebrew means oak tree or something. Ask AZ, he speaks it.
Bring it on I will be happy to debate this subject with you expect a mail from me soon as i believe Islam is the truth and the light to salvation.
And I believe that you know next to nothing about Islam.
Even your bible predicts the comming of Islam and the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) your own bible proves Islam authenticity.
Yahweh is His name. He mentioned it over 6800 times!! But you won't find Allah, Muhammed, Mecca, Ka'aba, Qur'an etc. one single time mentioned in the Bible. But you are correct when you say that Yahweh tells us of the coming of Islam. Through his prophets He told us that an angel of light( Gabriel) would give false witness( Qur'an) to a false prophet( Muhammed). And through prostration prayer and taxation would wreak havoc on the earth. Perfect match for Islam.
"Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible is Elah the name of God. It is the name of a man and the name of an oak tree. (Pictorial Ency. of the Bible, Zondervan, Grand Rapids, MI, USA, Vol. 5.)"
To me you seem to enjoy making claims without substantiating them. ever heard ofStrong's Concordance, we read the following regarding 'elahh' :
Result of search for "elahh ":
426 'elahh el-aw' (Aramaic) corresponding to 433; God:--God, god.
CASE CLOSED I got my source from http://www.answering-christianity.com/allahorigin.htm If you wish to read this article do so. The article contains a much more indepth review of the history and meaning of Allah. Christian missionaries like you always seem to miss things out. Fear of the truth maybe? And if you look up the true meaning of oak in Hebrew you will find "Allah" is only part of the word another thing i believe you should know...
Result of search for "allah":
427 'allah al-law' A variation of 424:--oak.
So much for you refuting my claims
"The Encyclopedia Britannica (1992) on the same topic states:
Allâh is the standard Arabic word for "God" and is used by Arab Christians as well as by Muslims."
Note Arab Jews also used Allah to refer to God....
This subject has been beat to death. I suggest you go back and read the posts. Ilah is used throughout the Qur'an. Allah is just a name of a Pagan rock idol.
That's probably the biggest generalisation I've heard from anyone on this forum. Those remarks were unacceptable and purely racist. Becker you should be ashamed of yourself.
Stick around for another 20-25 years and you will see it. Do you see the "war on terror" stopping by then? It happens after a peace treaty. Everything is unfolding exactly the way it must for this to happen as it was foretold. We must remain ignorant of Islam and we are right on course.
And AZ is correct. Arabs are not the problem. Islam is.
devildog said this in post #55 : Stick around for another 20-25 years and you will see it. Do you see the "war on terror" stopping by then? It happens after a peace treaty. Everything is unfolding exactly the way it must for this to happen as it was foretold. We must remain ignorant of Islam and we are right on course.
And AZ is correct. Arabs are not the problem. Islam is.
