The world is surely coming to an end!!

Philosophy & Religion Forum

The world is coming to an end!! Did you all ever stop to think and realize that??? You need to get your life right so that you will be with God!
P.S. If you're not of christian belief, do not reply!!! I don't need anybody arguing whether i'm right because, I know I am! Read Revalation!! It'll tell you!!!

Moved to religion.

what do you mean by moved to religion????????

Well, this was in American Idol, where it was off topic. It was moved to Religion which is the proper forum for this discussion.

Well...It's never off topic to bring up God!! But, for the record I did find a Religion message board....

Danyelle, it just had nothing to do with American Idol. It was moved so you would not be bombarded with posts telling you it is off topic. In Religion, you will find people who want to discuss the subject.

Ooh ok! I thought you were trying to get smart or what not! I thought i posted it up under New Thread but, iight..It's cool!

Nope. I am not one to cop an attitude. Just here to help. Enjoy your time here at INReview.

thanks and I surely will!

Godbless you Dannyelle Holy Jesus loves you and all His childen who search for him and His Father. Fear God and nothing this world dishes up. If we fear Him and respect His Holy word Jesus commands His Angels to encompass and protect us forever. ST Vincent

Jesus is not your father Vince!!!!

WHERE did Jesus ever say he is your father???

God created you, God created Jesus. God and only God is our creator do not associate partners with him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Excuse me Raven...But, God is the father! If you look anywhere in the Holy Bible it'll tell you that..I don't know what you've been reading but, if you're looking in the Koran or some other paper back book with unimportant words in it..The something is surely wrong with you.. Because, God has said that anyone that doesn't believe in him with surely go to hell....And any Man born of a woman will surely die!!!So you can take that Jesus is not your father and Shove it!

raven, you tend to use a lot more !'s than are really necessary. I know you're passionate, and I fully respect that, but using so many exclamation points leads to people believing you're angry, when you're really just passionate about your expression.

Jesus is our savior, through the authority placed in him by God the Father, and through Jesus' death on the cross. In the respect that he's given us life anew and the chance at salvation, Jesus is in a sense, our father. If you want to get literal about who God created, then we should refer to Adam and Eve, and no other human being. Everyone else is supposed to have come directly from our earthly parents, not God's creative hand. God got the ball rolling in the fashion he wanted when he created TWO individuals: Adam and Eve. So, God didn't directly create me. He's not my father either. My father is a 55+ yr old man who has many faults and will one day pass away, but I love him anyways.

Ok, I'm going to stop this right now.

NO MORE DEGRADING OTHER PEOPLE'S RELIGIONS!!

If you have nothing but angry words to say about another religion, KEEP IT TO YOURSELF if you can't articulate it without showing contempt. This is a place for religious DEBATE, not angry insult-hurling towards people with different convictions than your own.

Danyelle, you're new, and I don't mean to come off as gruff, but I've been here awhile and I've seen enough of this type of argument. DO NOT attack another religion out of contempt. I'm christian also, and I don't appreciate it when others attack my religion, so the Golden Rule that christians live by shows me that I shouldn't do it either.

Just try to be more careful with how you express yourself in the future, so that everyone can be comfortable and feel like this is a good place to express themselves in a respectable way.

Danyelle tell me is Jesus God??

And is he the Only God???

I'll shoove my comments anyway as you seem like an individual who is not prepared to listen to anyone else anyway, so it will be a waste of time talking to you!!

But tell me then???

How many creators are thier Danyelle???

Did Jesus make you and me??

God did directly create you!! I'm not really sure in which context you were trying to state your point..But.... Genisis 1:27says " God created man in his own image, in the image of God He created Male and Female. Then God blessed them and said to them Be fruitful and multilply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves on the earth...
To break it down...God has supplied you with the essential tools for your mother and father to create you!
The Bible says God is a father for the fatherless and a mother for the motherless he is a friend for the friendless...It's not a mental thing..You can't just see God as your father..You have to feel it spiritually! You have to understand that God is with you at all times! he knows things that you don't even know about yourself..Right now God is my father....My father died 6 1/2 months ago.! I am only 16 years old and my (biological) father was my best friend..But, what I had to realize was that God is going to be with me forever..I just have to accept that in my heart..You have to have a spiritual relationship with God in order to know that he's there...He puts things in your life good/bad to let you realize and understand that he's with you! If you were to ask God to give you patience he's going to put you in a situation that requires alot of patiece so that you can learn how to be patient..If you ask God to hold your tongue (keep you from saying nasty things) he's going to put you in a situation where it would be best if you kept your mouth closed...Anything that you go through i'll say this...Anything that doesn't kill you will definitely make you alot stronger..And if you abandon God he will surely abandon you!!! If you don't have a Bible get one before it's too late... There's No perfect way to interpret the Bible as long as you believe in your heart that Jesus died on the cross to save the souls of you, me, your enemies, your friends, and everybody else I may have left out you are already in...You have to believe it in your heart...Not know it in your head! Read your Bible as often as you can! And have a relationship with God..He will surely talk to you! It's only if you listen.. Alot of people have different interpretations of the Bible but, you have to pray before you read the Bible so that he has his way with you and has you to understand his words the way he would have you understand them!

I didn't mean to offend anyone! I am very sorry! God is our creator! As I have interpreted the Bible there is only one creator...Which is he who created us! I am not trying to put down religions! And in the Bible it says to treat others how you would like to be treated therefore...I am sorry if I offended anyone else with any other religion other than what my beliefs are... But, to you Raven I do believe that God is the only creator I don't worship idols, I don't worship humans or anything else besides God!

Danyelle, I'm sorry for your loss. However, you cited the exact passage I thought of when I said that God didn't directly create me. I was born because my mother and father conceived me. I live because of them, who live because of their parents, and the cycle goes back to the two originals that God DID create by hand: Adam and Eve. God is their father, they are our ancestors. In THAT respect, God created me, because He created the first humans. But, God didn't form me with his own hands. He gave Adam and Eve the ability to multiply, just as the verse you quoted says. God supplied them with the tools to create life, which is part of being created in God's image. Adam and Eve did the rest, and so on down the line until I was born, and I've done the same by having a daughter.

When I pray to God and ask Him to give me patience, he opens my eyes to be more RECEPTIVE to opportunities to build my patience. The trials don't come BECAUSE I prayed. My frame of mind changes when the trials come, and I feel more resilient towards those trials because I sought patience, and the trial now becomes my OPPORTUNITY, and no longer do I look at it as only a burden and a frustration in my life. THAT, to me, is part of the power of prayer.

Oh, and I understand your fervor. Thank you for being considerate towards other people's religious views.

Ok just one last question from me!

Ok you say God is one and it is he alone who created you!

But who is Jesus then in relation to God?

Is he GOD to, but if he is also God then thier are two Gods??

So in relation to what vincent was saying that Jesus is his father!!

In context to God the creator, who is the creator then?

I know you will say Jesus had a part of God within him!!
But did Jesus not say all of us have a part of God within us, making Jesus like the rest of us, in terms of I mean a human!

Therefore the only reason I said what I said, is because I know Christianity teaches the belief of one God only, but the belief in trinity makes you beleive in three Gods!!

Trinity is not even mentioned in the bible so where did that come from????

Personally, even though you probably ask this to Danyelle, I would submit that maybe Jesus is the one who is GIVEN authority over all of humanity BY God the Father? And this would be due to two things:

1) Jesus was at the right hand of God as it says in the bible, and had a countenance in heaven before the earth was made that put him above all others except God the Father.

2) Jesus gave up heaven for a time, to come to earth and save all of humanity by living a sinless life so that He could be a suitable sacrifice (like a blemish-free lamb) when he died for the sins of humanity.

Does this sound reasonable raven?

So was Jesus just a sacrificial God? (not intended in an offensive manner of any sort).

Or are you telling me he was not God!

Also how would him dying erase all your sins!!

Say a christian, commits a sin, is he or she then forgiven, so is it ok for them to sin because they believed in Jesus!!!

Also you say his dying saves humanity, but if he was to die would'nt it have been better if people stopped sinning full stop after he died?

But yet majority of the world is still fuelled with sin!!

Another thing I need to ask you Sierradaddy, Jesus said he did not come to change the law, if I am right the Jewish Law includes not consuming flesh of the swine but yet christians started to do so why is this, also Jewish law which Jesus did not come to change included circumscision as it is part of the law, then why did christians stop from doing so?

I quote his own words: 'THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO DESTROY, BUT TO FULFIL. FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED .'(Mathew 5:17-18). In other words he had not come with any new laws or regulation he came only to fulfil and revive the old laws.

Which Law was Jesus talking about? GOD'S Law (10 commandments) or Mosaic Law (Leviticus stuff)? I believe he was talking about God's law, but I could be wrong. I dont't remember that passage as well as I should. I'll look it up a little later on.

Also, regarding Jesus as God, I personally believe that Jesus came out of God, and was created in a sense, but I doubt it was like any other created being, and I also think that whether Jesus is OFFICIALLY God or not isn't the issue, nor is it really that important. By that, I mean to say that even if Jesus didn't sustain himself and even if Jesus has a beginning where God does not, it really is of no consequence, because if God saw fit to give Jesus authority over Earth as I believe, who are we to argue with God's decision? How can we possibly see things in a better or more appropriate light than God? That's my take on it.

I don't believe that Jesus was a sacrificial God, and I'm not sure if even THAT matters either. But, I think that Jesus is the LEGITIMATE authority over earth, and that this was an appointment BY GOD, as it says in the bible.

The bible talks about sacrificing unblemished lambs in the old testament, as an atonement for sins. This was to symbolize and point towards the Messiah, who would take away the sins of the world, and bring salvation to all those who would accept God into their hearts and live a life in agreement with God's law. Jesus was the messiah and was the only sinless person, so his sacrifice on the cross was the same as the old testament atonement rituals. This, to me, is the basis of the christian religion on a whole. Jesus' sacrifice ALLOWS for us to be saved at the judgement day, because our death penalty has been paid by an unblemished sacrifice in the form of the sinless Jesus.

Now, relating to Christians and their ways... I can't say that I'm pleased with Christianity as it stands in this day and age. I call myself a christian, but I've lived a life that seems quite different than what I understand many christians to have lived. I grew up going to church on SATURDAY, as it states for us to REMEMBER the SABBATH day, which is the 7th day, in the 4th commandment. I grew up not eating any pork or seafood. I didn't eat any birds other than turkey and chicken. I didn't eat any fish that had teeth. No bacon, no seafood such as crustaceans or octopus/calamari. No snails... No sushi. No land animal with 4 legs that was not cloven-hooved and didn't chew it's cudd (beef, lamb, sheep, veal, and pretty much nothing else, although I think I could've eaten some venison and bison/buffalo...). So, much of the Mosaic law I was raised to obey to some extent, but christianity so to speak doesn't seem to practice the majority of mosaic law, and I can't say one way or the other whether that's a breach of God's law. I'm just not sure. I do feel, however, that a lot of compromises have been made in Christianity that God is not pleased with, and never wanted.

Hope this helps...

Oh, one more thing...

I know you're contesting the idea of the Trinity. I agree that it is an INTERPRETATION ONLY, and not directly mentioned in the bible as such. There IS mention of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, especially in the passage that says something like, "Go ye therefore, and preach to all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and The Holy Ghost" That seems to be where the interpretation of the Trinity has its roots. I'm not one for the Trinity as God. I see the Holy Spirit as being God's character of righteousness, which both the Father and the Son share. Not that they require it as a source of power, but that they both see things from the same righteous viewpoint. They both have the same character. That's what I think the Holy Spirit is. The personification of God's righteous character and power, which Jesus also has. Whether that's because God gave him power really doesn't matter.

Thank you sierradaddy I will not ask any further questions as I have already asked more then I said I would!!!

But you have given reasonable answers!!

I could further argue that Jesus was said not to be the only sinless man in the bible:

"Old testament says there were 4 people who never sinned, so the Midrash and Talmud tells us, these were Benjamin (youngest son of Isaac), Amram (Moses's father), King David's father (i think) and one other ."

This I found in another thread "what would you do" in the world religion forum, You don't have to give me any further answers if you wish not to do so!!

But its just these things have popped up in my mind!!!

Just to touch on the sinless men in the bible...

I am unaware of other sinless men. I think that it could be argued that Enoch might have been sinless, but I can't be sure. Also, from what I remember growing up, the story of the young Samuel might have been another...

However, those other sinless men (if they were in fact sinless) were not given the duty of being the sacrifice for humanity's sin. Only Jesus was given this task.

Oh, and it's been fun debating with you, raven. Thanks for asking the questions. It challenged me to think a bit deeper than I usually do on the subject, to see if my line of thinking really covers the majority of the holes I usually find in other theories and interpretations...

No that is good all of us should think about our beliefs and how much they make sense to us or not!!

If you do not not question, then you are practicing with blind faith.

Therefore if you think about these things then it only makes you faith stronger and allowes you to work out the rights from the wrong!!

The search for GOD is always a good thing, and questioning your own faith helps one to understand if they are right or wrong!!

But one question of mine you still have not really answered, and that is!!

That Jesus said God was within all of us as he was within Jesus, does that not make Jesus Human like us?

I personally belive Jesus to be a prophet of God!!
A very highly regarded prophet!!

I would like you to have a look at a thread I started in the world religion Forum which is:

"The gospel of Barnabas, lets research it"..

Tell me what you think??

There are many kinds or flavors of the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit that created creation (like Wisdom) is also man's, meaning human beings are vessels of this type of Spirit, allowing them dominion over other creatures. Does that make him a God?

Only if the same Spirit FILLS the person, a son of man could become a son of God.

This is why Jesus had to be filled with the Holy Spirit - the spirit of God is upon him. Just like prophets --- the spirit of God is upon them when they declare things for God as his messenger of warning or hope. That is why in our prayers - we declare that God is in his angels and in his saints....

However, the implication is that SATAN can also be among men- those who do his bidding. This is because men have free choice to follow or not to follow the Will of God. So, if ever Satan rules the world, it is because men allow themselves to be led into sin. They make poor choices or decisions as authorities, or the multitudes follow wrongful authorities. What is wrong is sin because it would result to death and destruction.

Following the Will of the Father leads to eternal Life.

But Jesus never differed himself from the rest of the people, he never said he was God!!!

He did say that all humans had the spirit of God within them and so did he, and he did not differ himself!!

Not necessarily. It could mean that Jesus was letting us know that EVERYONE has the same access to God, and that just because he APPEARS special to men, and has what seems like a greater connection to God than the rest of them, doesn't mean that all don't have the same access and can't have the same kind of relationship.

I think that it would mean more to show that all can have a rich relationship with God, which is part of Jesus' duty as the fulfiller of prophecy and God's law.

By the way raven, I don't recall that verse. Can you provide it? The one that shows that Jesus said that?

Also, on the Barnabas thread. I think it is interesting. I have a desire to read the "lost books" that were removed from the Bible. They may have the ability to clear up some other things, or strengthen my current convictions. Thanks for sharing it.

Ok I have to go now but please do have a look at the thread I started in the world religion forum "The gospel of barnabas, lets research it".


Thank you very much for your answers Sierradaddy and your contribution Tvee, look forward to debating with you again!!

Bye for now......

I will give you the quotes!

They are there, as many christians are the ones that have told me of this!!

So I will find them!!

Like I said before...Everybody has their own way of interpreting the Bible...No human can say "It's wrong" or "It's right" It's God who interprets what his words are! Nobody is wrong...Alot are probably right but, we can't say who's wrong and who's right! But, futhermore...All of us are Christians and of God..However SierraDaddy...You stand out to me! I like the way you think..But, to Raven I feel that anything I say you are going to try and challange what I say! I don't know everything but, it's called an interpretation! Or rather ( on earthly terms) OPINIONS! *They're just like butt-holes! Everybody has one and is entitled to one*..I don't know the Bible Cover to Cover but, I do understand many things in the Bible and I am understanding more and more everyday! My mother however is a minister/co-pastor and I understand things alot more than my friends! I don't know everything so don't challange everything I say...I am 16! And 16 year olds are entitled to an opinion as well as an interpretation of everything. I don't know everything but, I do understand and I can find out most things!
No hard feelings just stating my feelings! I am pretty sure that I have people on here who are older than me and also I am sure that there are those on here who may feel that I am surely clueless about the world and God and possibly many things around me but, I do understand most things that come my way.
The exclamation points aren't suggesting the I am arguing it is just suggesting that I am trying to firmly get my point across without disresprect!

I have a question! How was there no sinless man in the Bible besides God?? I thought that we lived in a world of sin...(I am only asking in search of an answer! Not to argue!!)I'm asking because, I don't know the answer.

I've been trying to figure out why all men seem to sin, even with our sinful nature, but Jesus didn't, even though he was exposed to the same temptations that we are, and he was born into humanity, which probably means that he was closer to having a sinful nature, even if he didn't actually SIN.

So far, I've not been able to come up with a satisfactory opinion on that. We are SUPPOSED to be able to conquer sin completely, which means that we SHOULD be able to live a sinless life from birth. Maybe the reason no one has is because of the lack of trust, or the part of human nature that requires the DEVELOPMENT (or in this sense, RE-development) of relationships. We tend to be hesitant to trust the virtues of someone or something that is new to us, and with our sinful nature, it must be hard to believe in something or someone that has only good intentions for us and won't let us down. I don't know about you, but even my PARENTS have let me down numerous times. The thought of someone having no hidden motives and promising me great things can be sometimes hard to swallow, when I'm bombarded with a totally opposite reality all day long. Maybe that has something to do with it...

I think it goes back to Sunday School basics. "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Romans 3:23

I think that part of being human is sinning. As Christians we strive not to, but when we do we pray and ask the Lord for forgiveness, then try to do better. I don't think it is possible to live a life completely free of sin. God gave us all free will. We are not perfect, so we will make bad decisions from time to time.

I don't know fuscia. Who know as believers that God's gonna try His hardest to help us stay free from sin, so any shortcomings to that effect can be placed squarely on OUR shoulders. If God's doing His part, then why do we still fall short after we've committed ourselves to Him? I think it's gotta be a trust issue. I don't like it when I'm a passenger in a car someone else is driving, save a few select individuals who I KNOW and have grown to trust (like my father, who I fashion my driving habits after). Still, even when my FATHER does something on the road that I don't expect of him, I feel my foot trying to slam through my make-believe brake pedal on my passenger-side floor. I want to take control of things because I feel my father's done something to make me feel uneasy trusting him at that time. I think that we sin because we begin to doubt God, and while He leads us through the path that He sees is best for us, we at times get uneasy in trusting Him, and want to control the car ourselves. I think that if we were less uneasy and more ready to let Him be in control, we absolutely COULD live a sinless life from birth, while on earth and while this age of sin persists. I think that part of our sinful nature IS our doubt in God's ability to lead, and that's why none have been able to live a sin-free life.

Doubt has to be part of the equation. I won't argue that. I do believe that satan temps us as well. Let's face it, many sinful things are fun, so some people from time to time subcome to the temptation. Arrogance, pride, these things contribute to us walking down the wrong path as well.

I am just one of those who does not believe that we can lead a sin free life, but that is just my own odd view. I believe that Jesus was the only one never to sin and he is and will remain the only one to lead a sin free life. He was perfect, and we are not. I do try to be the best person that I can and not sin, but when I do, I pray right away and try not to do it again.

Hello all here, I am thankful that I have found a truly great forum here.
Jesus said that His Father is greater than He. Jesus is Gods Son born of truly Virgin Mary hence'' Son Of God'' God is one. Titles Ancient of days, King Of Peace.
Book of Enock states that Angel Urial took Enock great grandfather of Noah to Heaven. while there to meet God Enock states who is this person next to God. He has the appearance of a Holy Angel full of Grace and truth.
Angel Urial replied '' this is the elect one who will save mankind from their sins and will reveal the treasures of Heavan to mankind'' ''and all who trust in Him will be saved. Further it states that The Lord of Hosts ,The Ancient one created all the Universe through His elect one His Son . This Enockian book is the first Bible written by the earthly family of Enock , Noah and his families before and after the deluge. From this family in the new world came Abraham and his decedants the Hebrews and Arab nations and us Gentiles. To confirm what I have just told you remember what Holy Jesus said.. ''Before Abraham was ...I Am'' and the priests replied 'but you are not even 50 years old'' Abraham lived around 1900 bc. I have seen God The Son fellow Christians and all here. I first received His spirit in 1988 after losing 2 beloved sisters. in 1999 after enduring what I can only describe as a modern day persecution of myself my faith and bodily strength grew weak. I hung on to Jesus screaming and crying to Him during my ordeal. I use to scream ''Jesus save me '' into a cushion so my neighbours would not hear me. One day after a crying session without warning I was before His throne.. I saw a KIng with a crown dressed in white sitting on a chair looking at me. He had no beard was approximately 35 years old. When I fell before Him and was allowed to look in His eyes I saw infinity and endlessness I beleieve I saw His Father... My family does not believe me and think I am insane. but since then I have spent my life helping the poor and helpeless have also given practically all my money to needy people. I am not saying this to brag..only to show some evidence to you forum people that I came in contact with God and His son Holy Jesus.......''The pure in heart will see God'' but I consider myself a sinner and a struggling Christian ...ST Vincent...I call myself Saint Vincent as all of us in Christ living or in Gods Bossom are living Saints............

When Jesus declared that God alone is good, he meant it. Moreover, he asked his apostles to pray with him so that they would not fall into temptation.

Man is always under testing - he must exercise free choice and sometimes, he can't help but make mistakes. Even a delay in doing good is a sin. You know the phrase, justice delayed is justice denied.

You and I belong to this age, and we all must strive to overcome the temptations. However, there is safety in heaven. Yup, the idea of heaven as a place of rest is really because there is no more testing but assurance of light (truth) and real power (holy spirit).

Therefore, only the saints in heaven could really claim they are SAFE. Saints in the making suffer from temptations also, and so do everyone else living on Earth alike. Lucifer was closest to God but he denied the Will of God - his only sin (pride) lead to more sins (evilness and destruction).

SO, if you think you're safe already, think again... no one living in human conditions is completely safe - even Jesus agonized before his passion - just think of that! Pray fervently that you overcome the world (all attractions and trappings of this life) as Jesus had. The certified saints worked harder to be faithful during death.

I hope you just treat this only as a side comment, not a personal criticism.

There are many different opinions there but, I do understand the main view...But, I haven't understood yet how God didn't sin if he was in the same world as us and going through the same temptations as us! Is this the type of question that will never be answered or rather should I ask questions about it? Because, my mom has always told me that I shouldn't question God but, i'm just kinda confused thats all!

That makes Jesus our King - he was truly sinless until the end... He had faith, courage, endurance, patience and faithfulness. He was truly HOLY, the son of the living God! He had great SPIRITUAL strength making him our Spiritual King.

For the rest of us humans, we cannot truly compare but putting his burden on our shoulder makes our own crosses seem a lot lighter and easier to bear - don't you think so? What a delight... a perfect sacrifice to let us live despite the disappointment, troubles, pains or toils of earthly life. (from my prayer)

Messiah Jesus was sinless because as written in the prophets'' He is filled with the Holy Ghost without measure'' We are given the Holy Ghost measured out to us according to our loyalty and faith.. Jesus Christ is the only human to walk this earth filled without measure...as only the one true Son Of God has to be..
ST Vincent a sinner but cleansed by the blood of Holy Jesus.

Danyelle if you realise Jesus was not God but a man, then it will make more sense to you!!

No offence to the beleiving christians here, but Jesus and God have a seperate identity, thus meaning they are not one but two seperate beings!!!

When you call both God you are making two Gods!!!

Vincent you say

"Jesus Christ is the only human to walk this earth filled without measure".

You did realise you used the word Human here!! Jesus was a human, he was not God, a human and God are two different identities and when you realise this it makes more sense!!

Sierradaddy here are some quotes from the bible that say we also have the holy spirit within us if we want it to be with us:

1 Thessalonians 4:8 - He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Isaiah 63:11 - Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Moses also had the holy spirit as Jesus did.

Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Therefore like Jesus other men also have the Holy spirit within them!!
Making us like Jesus, we are all Children of God and following are quotes from the bible telling us that exactly:

Matthew 5:9 - Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Luke 20:36 - Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

John 11:52 - And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Romans 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

John 3:10 - In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Nice stuff raven. So, could you say that maybe Jesus was our big brother, who showed us the way to be holy while on earth to the best of our abilities? Wouldn't you say that he was THE most important prophet, if you believe him to be just a prophet? How could the words and teachings of the only universally accepted sinless man be less important than any other?

I agree that we all have access to the Holy Spirit, and I don't think that Jesus was PRIVILEDGED with more access because of who Jesus was. I think that Jesus EMBRACED the spirit of Holiness like no other person has, and clinged to it his whole life, not once being so removed from it that he committed a sin. Even when God withdrew his presence from jesus on the cross when the sins of the world were apparently heaped upon Jesus, Christ didn't sin.

Raven, Jesus did not sin. He was not a mere prophet, he was God's son. The only sinless one ever to walk the earth. You will never believe that, just as I will never believe Mohammed was a prophet. I will say that there is an excellent thread on the main page of this forum about Jesus. C.S. Lewis wrote that you either believe Jesus was the son of God, a madman or a liar. The thread was started by Twisted Wizard. Good reading.

http://www.inreview.com/showthread....7692&forumid=28

I beleive Jesus Christ has a higher status in the eyes of God then from most of mankind, but his status remains the same as the other prophets, as they taught the same things as Jesus, because the followed the same God, who obviously has the same set of rules for all his messengers, and as you can see from above Quote Moses was also privilaged with the same spirit.

Also Moses you could argue was very much on the same status as Jesus, as Jesus came not to change the Law that was given to Moses but to fulfill it, as I have given a quote in my previous post, if Jesus had a higher status, he would have brought the Law and spread it among the people!!

He was a very loved messenger of GOD and God has given a high status to all his beloved messengers!!!

Fuscia why can't you beleive Jesus to be a prophet, why should I beleive he was a liar or a madman, I certainly do not and never wish to do so!!

C S Lewis said this becuase he himself could not grasp anything other then what he had been tought since childhood. He says this so that in his head he cannot argue any further as he has told himself one right thing and two absurd things which he would never believe, thus leaving out no room for any further discussion in his head!!!

Raven you seem to have a problem with The Royal Godhead being God the Father and God the Son. Yes Jesus was a complete and total HUMAN but His spirit and mind were of a complete and total one God. ST Vincent

St Vincent as you sign yourself!!

Human and God are two different identities.
You cannot make a human a God, Was Jesus speaking to himself when he conversed with God?

Why did he need to pray to God if he was always God or part of God!!!

A seperate named individual and a seperate being from God is not God. God is one
Why emphasize the fact of thier being only one God and then confusing all of mankind by sending a part of him as another individual, Breaking God into two.

I cannot agree with this theology whatsoever..
I'm sorry to say......

Heres a quote from another one of my posts, when I was presented with the example of an egg with trinity!!!

Fuscia thank you for you comment, good example but the eggs final result is a unified being, which is the Chicken.

Now in relation to Jesus, the Holy spirit and God, well when you say Jesus is the son of God you are giving him a seperate identity, then saying God is the Father another seperate identity and then the Holy spirit another seperate identity!!

These three identities can never be unified, as a son is not and cannot be his own father!!
So if you say Jesus is God, this makes two Gods!!
and if you say no Jesus is a part of God, well he is'nt as he is a seperate being because he has a seperate identity, and by calling him God as well you are making two Gods!!
Either Jesus is God or God the father is God, who is it make your minds up!

The holy spirit is a form of a pure soul, Now God does not need a soul, he is the creator of souls, therefore the Holy spirit can never be God but only a mere hazy reflection of God's pureness, as our souls can never be anywhere as pure as God is!!!

The egg the yolk and the white, always stay togather they never seperate from one another, the trinity does not keep this form of unification at all does it!!!

Therefore However good your example of the Egg, it does not fit in with the trinity!!!

raven, you say that a human cannot be a God.

I agree. HOWEVER....

What if the son of God (Jesus), exalted to be at God's right hand in heaven BEFORE the creation of earth, chose to BECOME a human in order to fulfill his father's plan of the redemption of mankind?

What if through Jesus' sacrifice (giving up a form similar to, or the same as God's to be reshaped in the form of a human so that he might die to pay the wages of sin for mankind through transferrence of all repented sins into Jesus at the time of his death), man has access to God?

What if, Jesus was the FIRST created being, who was nurtured in a special way by God, as His Son? It has been noted in some books (I think Enoch was one of them, but it's been pulled from what is considered to be the authentic Bible sometime ago...) that there was a being that was at God's side, who was to be the savior of mankind and the one who would end the sins of man. Who is to say that Jesus wasn't that being, who then volunteered to be the one to sacrifice himself for the good of humanity, through taking the form of a human and fulfilling God's plan of redemption?

I think it's reasonable and quite possible. In fact, that's how I believe things went down.

Ok you talk of Jesus's death giving forgiveness to mankinds sins!!

Well, following are a few quotes from the bible for which man will be punished!!
Now becuase Jesus died for christians is it ok for them to commit these sins and will they be forgiven, and if not then what percentage of the worlds christians are actually going to be saved??

The quotes are:

Amos 1:3 - Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Damascus, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have threshed Gilead with threshing instruments of iron :

Amos 1:6 - Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Gaza, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they carried away captive the whole captivity, to deliver them up to Edom :

Amos 1:9 - Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Tyrus, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they delivered up the whole captivity to Edom, and remembered not the brotherly covenant :

Amos 1:11 - Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast off all pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever:

Amos 1:13 - Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of the children of Ammon, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have ripped up the women with child of Gilead, that they might enlarge their border:

Amos 2:1 - Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime :

Amos 2:4 - Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked :

Amos 2:6 - Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;

Zechariah 14:19 - This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Basically man will still be punished for his sins, be it christian, muslim, Jew or one of any other belief.
But if they follow the way of God then they will be forgiven.

You say they will only be forgiven if they follow Jesus, does that make everyone else hellbound!!

Becuase other faiths teach, by following god you are saved they do not say Jesus is our lord and they do not say that it will be through him that we will be saved!!
But only by following god's teachings we can be saved.

See this is exactly me point by making Jesus God you are creating two Gods!!

Who will it be that has the right of forgiving? Is it Jesus or is it God?

Also No where in the bible does Jesus say that by him being killed on the cross will men's sins be forgiven...

Two things, raven:

1) I said that all the REPENTED sins of mankind were put upon Jesus at the cross. The unrepented sins remain unforgiven, and cause the unrepentant persons to be at fault and they won't be saved because of it. I don't believe that we have to repent for EACH INDIVIDUAL SIN, but once we are repentantant in our hearts for our sinful ways, and make the decision to do our best to remain in line with God's will, we are forgiven of our past sins all at once.

2) I never said that the only way to heaven is by FOLLOWING Jesus. I said that He makes the way for us by being the sacrifice that we can cast our sins upon to be washed clean. When we ask GOD for forgiveness, and he accepts our repentance, the sins are placed upon the cross, which is why we can be forgiven without any death punishment. The wages of sin is death, so any who sin are destined to die. Through Jesus' death as a sacrifice, we have the chance at eternal life.

I hope that helps clear things up...

So for example if a mass murdering rapist, repents will he be forgiven for all the lives he has taken and destroyed?

If so I don't see this as very fair, one could go on and commit every sin in the book and then repent and think that he or she is forgiven!!

In your second point you say that people who dont repent will die and people who do will live on forever,
but this comment of yours I do understand, that you talk of an after life that will be eternal, but you will have to agree with me that every man and women will die in this life, no one will have eternal life in this form!!

Also why as you say does Jesus have to die to take the load of Sins upon him, what about the sins that were commited after he died, are they still all loading up on the cross, so that all the sinners who want to repent can do so, and then all thier sins will be forgiven, however evil and soul destroying those sins were!!!

Basically you are saying one can live a life of total sin now and then decide, ok time to repent, so I can get a fresh start becuase all my sins will be forgiven....

Does'nt this concept of sin breed more sin as it promotes sin, becuase it will be forgivable, and one can escape from punishment?

If not then in a sense the death of Jesus on the cross does'nt really make a difference then becuase sinners will still be punished!!

Raven's understanding of Christinianity not being really monotheistic appears to be correct, assuming that Christians worship Jesus as a Divinity. The Bible is replete with Jesus referring to God as an entity separate from himself. If some of this has been quoted before, my apologies.

Why do you call me good? No one is good--except God alone. [Mk 10:18, Lk 18:17]

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. [Mk 13:32]

And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. [Lk 12:10]

Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done. [Lk 22:42-43]

Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. [Lk 23:46]

the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son [Jn 5:22]

By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. [Jn 5:30]

I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. [Jn 8:28]

I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. [Jn 8:42]

If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who is glorifying me, of whom ye say that He is your God. [Jn 8:54]

I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. [Jn 12:49]

The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work [Jn 14:10]

If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. [Jn 14:28]

I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me. [Jn 14:31]

Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. [Jn 16:25]

I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you [Jn 16:26-27]

I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. [Jn 20:17]

As the Father has sent me, I am sending you. [Jn 20:21]

- woolfe

Woolfe, but Jesus also declared that the Father and the Son are one.

Jesus had his version of dedicating the temple... men are temples of the holy spirit and he dedicated the "church" to God for all time to come. In a prayer he said that he has given (taught) everything, and that he now dedicates the men who believe in him to God so that they may be ONE as the Father and Son are one.

This is the way to unity among men. Of course there are those who belong to the evil one and he does not pray for them. Sending the Holy Spirit to the good people is what makes them one with God.

If you can understand this, then you won't have a problem with mystery of the holy trinity. The holy trinity is not three Gods, but three persons of the same God. The world wants peace and unity? The way to go is by reconciliation with God and letting goodness and the Holy Spirit, God the Father or God the Son UNITE all.

The anti Christ would come alright - he would try to unite all but the twist is that this person would act like God and treat all else as his subjects, servants or slaves. The antiChrist would be anything like but a God who is normally independent of human help.

The true Christ unites all men by reconciling them to God the Father and letting them earn the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that created everything. The holy spirit existed long before creation. If men acquire the Holy Spirit then he truly becomes like a God since he is able to understand, develop and create or control creation... earning him dominion over living things (the Son of God & inheritor of everything) .