I think the Israeli government is brutal...

Israel & Palestine Forum

I am against the actions of the Israeli government because I don't think it protects the people, Israeli or Palestinian. I think their actions just make the violence worse.

Am I anti-Semitic for thinking this way? Personally I don't see how being against Judaism or Jewish people has anything to do with my comments, but I often seen people cry anti-Semitism when someone expresses such a position.

Inner City Blue, you are one of the lucky ones, the ones whose brain work properly.

Your actually able to notice the brutal Israeli government, do you also see the occupation as brutal?

I consider the occupation brutal because it just hurts the people. The militants love that occupation is going on, because they will always have potentials to carry out suicide bombings.

If you are an unemployed Palestinian male, young and impressionable, and you are considerably immobile due to blockades, you can easily be convinced to go and blow yourself up as a few do (remember a large percentage don't).

Now let's say they ended this occupation, then the militants wouldn't have those impressionable young men because they would really have no reason to join, and if the militants are as they like to call themselves freedom fighters, then they would stop their campaign of death, which just kills innocent civilians.

No no, Inner you are judging the Militants without knowing them, like all Palestinians, for Israel to stop the occupation is a dream come true for them.

These Militants, they dont always target civilians, its a fact that, most of the time they do attack the Military, like Preston Likely, has proved, if these Militants had the same weapons as the Israelis, then their target would not be the civilians.

I see that you are neutral on this subject, you condem both sides, for leading a campaign of terror and death.

Inner City Blue, since i just posted something on the same subject, here , did you know that some of the Israelis who have been killed which Israel considers as civilian casualties are armed and they terrorize the Palestinian civilians whenever they can?

I suggest you go take a look at the thread i just gave you.

TWBR,

Please spare us the propaganda...
the "I am Allah's messenger...I kill the infidels....if they do not want to be killed...I will still try to kill them. Look how Israel is barbaric, they do not want to be killed. They persecute us when they do not let us kill them."

Look how ticked off Islam got when we invaded Iraq. We came thousands of miles to overthrow Sodom. Multiply that by a million times and you will know how upset ISRAEL is that islam vows to throw her into the sea.
The difference is that ISRAEL will hold her ground.

Can't you speak for youself on the subject? we keep giving you ample opportunities, but all you do is cite propaganda on the internet.

When you single out the State of Israel to its own standards, yes, you're an anti-semite.

Of course he's not anti-semitic, and of course he's singling out the state of Israel.


Merkava, in case you haven't noticed, this is the ISRAEL/PALESTINE FORUM. That means we discuss Israel on this forum, not other countries (except perhaps Arab countries). Why does criticising the Israeli Government make you anti-semitic? It's ridiculous!

AZ2004,

Criticizing the Israeli government is not anti-semitic.

Supporting the Islamic terrorists (either by word or deed) who target innocent citizens, men, children and women of Israel is Anti Semitic.

And to get semantic on you,

Both Arabs and Israelis are semites. They are both descendants of Shem....where the word semite originated.
And these Islamic terrorists sacrifice their own women and children for some "greater" cause.

So, they are anti-palestinian, anti-arab as well. They just don't regard human life as very important in any form.

Innercity:

Welcome to the Israel/Palestine forum.

A few points.

First of all, I agree that Israel's ending of the occupation will ease tensions and and provide fewer recruit for militant groups. I do not believe it will end terrorism.

Be aware that Arab terrorism against Jews and Israelis has been going on since WWI. It continued through the 1950's and 1960's with Fedayeen border raids on Israeli settlements. This while Jordan occupied the West Bank and Egypt the Gaza strip. It continued throughout the middle 1960's through the middle 1980's with the PLO's activities, including airline hikackings and the kidnapping and murder of 11 Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics. The Intifadas of the last 15 years are only the most recent manifestation.

As to the attitudes of the militant groups themselves, you've heard one view. Here is what the militants themselves say. Take Hamas, the group responsible for the majority of suicide bombings.

This is the charter of Hamas:

Two-state solution?

"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life derives from Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine , for under the wing of Islam, followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms, conflict arises, corruption is rampant and wars will break out."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up ."

OK, no two-state solution. How about a single but secular state?

"As to the objectives: discarding the evil, crushing it and defeating it and vanquishing it so that so that truth may prevail, homelands revert [to their owners], calls for prayer be heard from their mosques, announcing the reinstitution of the Muslim state . Thus, people and things will revert to their true place and Allah is our helper.

The problem, says Hamas, is that an outsider dared set foot on Islamic land:

"Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he sets foot on the land of the Muslims. And this becomes an individual duty binding on every Muslim man and woman; a woman may fight the enemy even without her husband's authorization, and a slave without his masters' permission.
This [principle] does not exist under any other regime, and it is a truth not to be questioned."

Peaceful solutions?

"[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement . For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."

"There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility ."

The nature of the "enemy" (Jews). You just have to read this one:

"For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.

As regards local and world wars, it has come to pass and no one objects, they were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it. "

There's more, much more.

http://www.hamasonline.com/indexx.p...hamas_convenant

Read it and make up your own mind.

Its so ridicolous that you use the Hamas website, thats so weak....

Thanks Woolfe99.

You cited:
The nature of the "enemy" (Jews). You just have to read this one:

"For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there."


Woolfe99, this is straight out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Hitler used this false document to give false pretense for gassing the Jews in WWII.
Its posted all over KKK sites, www.nwowatcher.com/, any site which pertains to Jew hating...references this. It's complete rubbish.

So I am not surprised that Islam believes in and incites its people to believe these lies and propaganda.

You used Hamas! That was even worse, you probalby dont get my point......

I must say I have a lot of problems with Arafat because he is a weak and mediocre leader. He is not taking the high road, but hey most leaders don't. I think Arafat could do so much for his country but he doesn't do anything, partly because of resources, but mostly because of pride.

I think pride is the biggest issue here. Both sides have too much pride. Making any real concessions to them shows weakness, but that's just ignorant. The result, Arafat is not quite as active as he could be with peace protests or trying to stop militant groups (I don't think he controls them). Israel just snubs it's nose at the international community and makes they occupation that much worse with collective punishment.

A lot of Israel's actions breed hatred. My friend is the cousin of the chief negotiator on the Palestinian side, Saeb Erakat. They want peace, they don't want people fighting and dying. But they also understand that Israel makes it hard with their military. My friend was taken out of his car along with his family and had gun stuck in their faces. His brother was almost beaten up and detained because they accused him of having a fake American passport (they were going to tear it up). Blowing up a set of homes because of tunnels, or destroying the home of a suicide bombers family, will breed hatred.

Someone has to take the high road, and I think people are looking toward Israel to do this because they are the occupying force, and if they continue their actions, it will backfire in the worst way given time.