Court: fence violates int'l law, must be dismantled

Israel & Palestine Forum

Court: fence violates int'l law, must be dismantled

By Aluf Benn, Haaretz Correspondent

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/73E6C68A-108F-4FEB-85E9-6F316542511F/42439/C82CB9F0868F4B40A6D4561698082244.jpg
Israel's barrier will trap thousands of Palestinians

The International Court of Justice will rule on Friday that the separation fence contravenes international law, that it must be dismantled, and that compensation must be paid to the Palestinian owners of property confiscated for its construction, according to documents obtained by Haaretz.

The decision will be officially made public at 4 P.M. Friday under the heading, "Legal implications of the construction of the barrier in Palestinian occupied territory."

The court has ruled that on the basis of the material available to it, "[it] is not convinced that the specific course Israel has chosen for the wall was necessary to attain its security objectives." Fourteen votes favored the decision and the sole opponent was the American Judge, Thomas Buerghenthal.

It then says: "The wall, along the route chosen, and its associated regime, gravely infringe a number of rights of Palestinians residing in the territory occupied by Israel, and the infringements resulting from that route cannot be justified by military exigencies or by the requirements of national security or public order."

"The construction of such a wall accordingly constitutes breaches by Israel of its various obligations under the applicable international humanitarian law and human rights instruments."

In support of Judge Buergenthal's opposition, the Dutch Judge, Pieter Kooijmans, rejected the call for all countries to act against the project.

The Hague court ruled that it had jurisdiction to render an opinion on the issue of the fence. The justices conducted a lengthy analysis of the legal situation and of the history of the Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Parts of the fence constructed within the Green Line were not included in the court's decision.

Most of the justices believed that in building the fence, Israel violated international humanitarian law, by infringing on Palestinians' freedom of movement, freedom to seek employment, education and health. Israel violated international treaties it had signed which deal with these topics, the ruling states.

The International Court in the Dutch capital, The Hague, was asked to deliberate on the issue of the security fence by a United Nations General Assembly resolution of last December, and its decision will be presented to the world body.

Prior to the release of the decision, Israeli sources said they were unsure of the court's ruling. However, European sources said that on the basis of information available to them, the legal opinion would be "negative and critical" of Israel.

PA Chairman Yasser Arafat on Thursday said he had full confidence in the International Court. "I believe the court in the Hague is capable of stopping the construction of the fence that damages our people," he said in Ramallah.

For its part, the Defense Ministry has carried out changes on the official map delineating the route of the fence according to the ruling of the High Court of Justice. The changes run along the section of the fence northwest of Jerusalem, and in parts near Qalqilya, Modi'in and southeast of Jerusalem near Gush Etzion.

According to the map made public by the Ministry of Defense, there are many changes from the original route of the fence, and all are meant to alleviate the pressure on the Palestinian population in those areas.

However, the new map also shows the intention to build the fence around the Ariel salient, linking the largest settlement in the West Bank, with Karnei Shomron and Immanuel, to the Green Line.

Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization have prepared their public relations and diplomatic offensives in anticipation of the decision. The PLO representative in the United Nations, Nasser al-Qidwa, and diplomats from Arab countries at the UN, plan to request an emergency session of the General Assembly where the results of the court's decision will be presented.

It is expected that the Palestinians will seek operative application of the court's conclusions, in case Israel refuses to adopt the recommendations of the International Court.

Israel has already prepared its response, assuming that the court will be critical of Israel. Israel will seek to block the issue from reaching the Security Council, with the assistance of the United States. Israel is also hoping that most EU countries will not support the Palestinian move as they opposed bringing the matter before the ICJ.

Sources -

Haaretz - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449395.html

Al'Jazeera - http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exe...F316542511F.htm

So? They've already determined that bombs don't kill people.

Meaning...therefore, what? Why should anyone be concerned with what the ICJ says - what enforcement does it have?

This is something new? The UN (of which the ICJ is essentially a part) long ago picked sides in this dispute. So Israel will have yet another UN Resolution against it? Darn.

If that fence were conclusively proven to have saved 1,000,000 Israeli lives and nothing happened to the Palestinians except that one stubbed his toe on it, the ICJ would tell them to take it down. The ICJ is a political body, not a court of law, and it always has been.

Nothing happening here, but same old, same old.

- woolfe

Absolutely Woolfe it’s politics here. These resolutions by the UN and decisions like this are motivated by those who sit in UN Council condemning Israel in the West Bank while killing their own by the thousands.

Does this ruling even strike any resemblance to balance? I can see them saying the wall is wrong for plowing through Palestinian land and should be rerouted. But it simply declares the wall “illegal” period and says Israel must tear it down. Even though it’s proven to be very effective in prevention of suicide attacks among their people.

Israel will undoubtedly ignore this ruling and they should. I will agree that the wall that runs into Palestinian territories are illegal, but they have a right to build that wall on their own territory.

Yes, the question should properly be focused on where the wall runs, not the idea of the wall. And I agree it should be rerouted where it is splitting up villages and so forth. The article above actually mentions that Israel is doing just that, imperfectly I'm sure.

The fact is the fence has saved Israeli lives, and will in the long run save Palestinian lives as well. Every suicide bomber who gets across Israel's border and hits his mark invites an Israeli retaliation that will likely kill more people than the bomber did. I am sympathetic to the troubles it causes with property damage and freedom of movement, and that should be minimized, but saving lives trumps those considerations.

- woolfe

Woolfe you took the words right out of my keyboard. I was going to post that the wall will inevitably save Palestinian lives because of less attacks there.

I honestly think that the reason for resistance to that wall in part is because of its effectiveness at stopping attacks against Israelis. Militants and their supporters would rather attack than lend any real credibility to it as a deterrent.

perhaps the wall will virtually stop suicide attacks. Perhaps in a few years Israeli anger and fear will die down. Perhaps they will elect a new leader. With the wall finished, perhaps they will pull out of occupied territories. Perhaps Palestinians will stop supporting terrorism, and the terrorists will be bewildered. Perhaps this wall will bring peace.

Well it's stopping terrorists anyway.

BUILD THE WALL!

The barrier will never be removed unless Israel chooses to do so. If an attempt is made to do so by anyone else, you do not want to know what is going to happen to known enemies of Israel.

I think the wall does nothing for protection. Terrorism isn't fought with guns and bombs, but with education. If they spent the amount of money they spend on walls and tanks, on peace efforts that would just end the occupation and create a joint security force along with trips across the borders that bring Israelis and Palestinians together, then you would see a decline in violence. If you keep the rhetoric of protection and fighting terrorism, then death is the only thing to accept.

Inner City you are wrong. The wall has indeed reduced suicide attacks in Israel. Remember the first wall went up around Gaza before this security fence was being built and suicide bombings dropped there drastically. This fence being built has only added to the logic that it is indeed protective.

You mention education. I agree, however educated by who Israel? Any such thing coming from them is inheritably rejected by Arabs/Palestinians.

AZ is it Israel’s responsibility for Palestinian ghettos? If the fence is built on Israeli land, they have every right to do so. Their first priority is to the safety and welfare of their own citizens.

Settlements dismantled in the WB and Gaza will not bring peace. This didn’t start with Israel’s occupation in these territories and logic dictates it wouldn’t end there. I believe Israel should give it back on principle but expecting peace for it is a lofty goal I’m afraid.

The fence has been proved effective against suicide bombings, however against rockets there’s been more work to do. The fence run inside Palestinian territories to create a buffer zone. Unfortunately it’s not in the interest of peace to build it on Palestinian land.

I’m not surprised at the World Court decision here. They are made up of mostly pro-Palestinian people as is the UN. All resolutions are always onesided and never hardly raise issue with Palestinian behavior detrimental to the peace process. In that being as much I’m not surprised the US will veto any resolution before the UN concerning this wall as it probably will reflect the decision by the World Court. It too lacks any balance whatsoever.

Suicide Bombings must be stoped in another way.

Israel's "Security Wall": Another Land Grab, PLO-NAD (July 2003)

The following map was produced by the Jerusalem Task Force of the Negotiations Affairs Department of the Palestine Liberation Organisation.

http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/uploads/wall-nsu680.jpg

Higher resolution image is available at - http://www.nad-plo.org/maps/Qalqilya_land_grab.htm

Source :
Electronic Intifada

For more information on Israel's Apartheid Wall come here - Electronic Intifada : Israel's Apartheid Wall

yeah I don't understand why they are building outside the borders that's just gonna cause more troubles down the road. I wonder if it is simply a matter of engineering? I want to know more.

Dekka, good thing that you notice it, if you want to know more, check out the link that i just provided, Electronic Intifada is a TRUSTED source.

Electronic Intifada : Israel's Apartheid Wall

well if you look in no place does it go past more than a few kilometers so I'm wondering if it's as simply as a technical issue. I need to see some topographic maps or something. Just curious.

The green line is not an internationally recognized border. It's that simple. Israel is building that wall within Israel's land.

Here is a great flash by Gush Shalom

Gush Shalom : No Separation No Security Only Land Grab

The Wall will stop the creation of a Palestinian State, and the violence will just continue....

what?? how does the wall stop the creation of a Palestinian State?

well I think the hubbub over the wall is friggin' ridiculous. It demonstrates how people work for an agenda, not for peace.

The only, only argument any sane person can make against the wall is that it's on disputed territory. It's not anymore inhuman than me closing and locking my door to keep burglers out.

Websites? Everyone's got websites.

"After scores of suicide bombings and daily terrorist attacks against its civilians that have killed more than 850 people and wounded thousands more since September 2000, Israel’s unity government decided to construct a security fence near the northern part of the pre-1967 “Green Line” between Israel and the West Bank to prevent Palestinian terrorists from infiltrating into Israeli population centers. The project has had the overwhelming support of the Israeli public which sees the barrier as vital to their security.

There is actually nothing new about the construction of a security fence. Many other nations have fences to protect their borders (the United States is building one now to keep out illegal Mexican immigrants). Israel has similar barriers along its borders with Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. In fact, a fence already surrounds the Gaza Strip and not a single suicide bomber has managed to get across the Gaza barrier into Israel. Ironically, after condemning Israel's barrier, the UN announced plans to build its own fence to improve security around its New York headquarters.

Israel is Forced to Act
The Palestinians committed themselves in the Oslo accords and in the road map to dismantle terrorist networks and confiscate illegal weapons. After more than 10 years of negotiations, and a mounting toll of Israeli civilian casualties, however, it became clear to the Israeli people that the Palestinian Authority (PA) made a strategic choice to use terror to achieve its aims and that something had to be done to protect the civilian population.

'It obliges us to establish a barrier wall which is the only thing that can minimize the infiltration of these male and female suicide bombers,' said Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, who has emphasized that 'the fence is not political, [and] is not a border.'

Some Israelis oppose the fence either because they fear it will constitute a recognition of the 1949 armistice line as a final border. Jews living in the West Bank, beyond the planned route of the fence, in particular, argue that they are now being left relatively unprotected and worry that they might be forced to relocate behind the fence if it does become a political border in the future.

Making Terrorism More Difficult

Before the construction of the fence, and in many places where it has not yet been completed, a terrorist need only walk across an invisible line to cross from the West Bank into Israel. No barriers of any kind exist, so it is easy to see how a barrier, no matter how imperfect, won't at least make the terrorists' job more difficult. Approximately 75 percent ofthe suicide bombers who attacked targets inside Israel came from across the border where the first phase of the fence was built.

During the 34 months from the beginning of the violence in September 2000 until the construction of the first continuous segment of the security fence at the end of July 2003, Samaria-based terrorists carried out 73 attacks in which 293 Israelis were killed and 1950 wounded. In the 11 months between the erection of the first segment at the beginning of August 2003 and the end of June 2004, only three attacks were successful, and all three occurred in the first half of 2003.

Since construction of the fence began, the number of attacks has declined by more than 90%. The number of Israelis murdered and wounded has decreased by more than 70% and 85%, respectively, after erection of the fence.

The success of the anti-terrorist fence in Samaria means that the launching point for terrorists has been moved to Judea, where there is not yet a continuous fence.

Other Benefits
The Green Line is crossed by numerous dirt roads and it is impossible to patrol it. Many Palestinians take advantage of these roads to come to work illegally in Israel or to get between parts of the Palestinian administered territories to avoid checkpoints. Some also cross to carry out terror operations and theft. Since 1994, Palestinians, sometimes in cooperation with Israeli middlemen, have stolen thousands of automobiles as well as farm machinery and animals.1

Israelis living along the Green Line, both Jews and Arabs, favor the fence to prevent infiltration by suicide bombers and by thieves and vandals. The idea has gained increasing support with the general Israeli public, which now overwhelmingly supports the construction of the fence.

Planning the Route

The route of the fence must take into account topography, population density, and threat assessment of each area. The fence is scheduled to be built in stages. Phase A of construction, which is nearly complete, will measure approximately 85 miles from Salem to Elkana. Phase B will run about 50 miles from Salem to Tirat Zvi.

Phase C of construction incorporates Jerusalem. During the “al-Aqsa intifada,” more than 30 suicide bombings have targeted Jerusalem. A total of 90 terrorist attacks have killed 170 people and injured 1,500 in the capital. As part of the “Jerusalem Defense Plan” approved in March 2003, building also has begun around three parts of the capital city, which has been the most frequent target of suicide bombers. When it is completed within the next few months, the length of this section of the fence will run about 40 miles around the municipal boundaries of the city. A portion between the southern side of Jerusalem and Bethlehem is already finished.





Phase D will span approximately 93 miles from Elkana to Ofer. In addition, several special sections of the fence will protect specific areas and populations. An inside fence of 15 miles will protect the road from the airport to Jerusalem. A fence around the town of Ariel will stretch about 35 miles and a 31 mile section will traverse the road between Ariel and Kedumim. A 32-mile span will go from Jerusalem to Gush Etzion, another 19 miles will surround Gush Etzion, and the fence will continue an additional 58 miles to Carmel.

The planned route was approximately 458 miles; however, the plan has been repeatedly modified and, in February 2004, the government announced its intention to shorten the route and move the barrier closer to the 1949 armistice line to make it less burdensome to the Palestinians and address U.S. concerns. The announced changes included the dismantling of a small stretch of fence east of Kalkilya to make movement easier for residents going into the West Bank. The government cancelled plans to build deep trenches to protect Ben-Gurion Airport and Route 443 from Modi'in to Jerusalem because of concern about the impact on the Palestinians in the area. The changes would make the length of the barrier less than 400 miles.

This is the largest infrastructure project in Israel's history. The cost of the entire fence is approximately $1.6 million per mile and, when completed, is expected to have cost about $1 billion. As of May 2004, approximately 140 miles of the fence has been completed.

A High-Tech Fence
Although critics have sought to portray the security fence as a kind of "Berlin Wall," it is nothing of the sort. First, unlike the Berlin Wall, the fence does not separate one people, Germans from Germans, and deny freedom to those on one side. Israel's security fence separates two peoples, Israelis and Palestinians, and offers freedom and security for both. Second, while Israelis are fully prepared to live with Palestinians, and 20 percent of the Israeli population is already Arab, it is the Palestinians who say they do not want to live with any Jews and call for the West Bank to be judenrein. Third, the fence is not being constructed to prevent the citizens of one state from escaping; it is designed solely to keep terrorists out of Israel. Finally, only a tiny fraction of the barrier (less than 3% or about 15 miles) is actually a 30 foot high concrete wall, and that is being built in three areas where it will prevent Palestinian snipers from around the terrorist hotbeds of Kalkilya and Tul Karm from shooting at cars as they have done for the last three years along the Trans-Israel Highway, one of the country's main roads. The wall also takes up less space than the other barriers, only about seven feet, so it did not have a great impact on the area where it was built.


This diagram shows why a wall is being built in a few specific
places where Palestinian snipers have terrorized motorists.

Most of the barrier will be a chain-link type fence similar to those used all over the United States combined with underground and long-range sensors, unmanned aerial vehicles, trenches, landmines and guard paths. Manned checkpoints will constitute the only way to travel back and forth through the fence. The barrier is altogether about 160 feet wide in most places.

The land used in building the security fence is seized for military purposes, not confiscated, and it remains the property of the owner. Legal procedures are already in place to allow every owner to file an objection to the seizure of their land. Moreover, property owners are offered compensation for the use of their land and for any damage to their trees.



Politics

The construction of the fence has been slowed by political divisions over the precise route. The most controversial aspects of the project are decisions regarding the inclusion of Jewish settlements. Israel wants to include as many Jews within the fence, and as few Palestinians as possible. To incorporate some of the larger settlements, however, it would be necessary to build the fence with bulges inside the West Bank. The Bush Administration understands Israel's security arguments regarding the need for the fence, but does not want it to prejudge negotiations or to threaten the possibility of creating a contiguous Palestinian state and therefore has pressured Israel to restrict construction to the area along the pre-1967 border, or as close as possible to it. The so-called “Green Line,” however, was not an internationally recognized border, it ws an armistice line between Israel and Jordan pending the negotiation of a final border. Building the fence along that line would have been a political statement and would not accomplish the principal goal of the barrier, namely, the prevention of terror.

Most of the fence runs roughly along the Green Line. The fence is about a mile to the east in three places that allows the incorporation of the settlements of Henanit, Shaked, Rehan, Salit, and Zofim. The most significant deviation from the 1967 line is a bulge of less than four miles around the towns of Alfei Menashe and Elkanah where about 8,000 Jews live. In some places, the fence is actually inside the “Green Line.”

U.S. pressure has forced Israel to make some changes in the route and, at present, the biggest controversy relates to the question of whether to build the fence around the Ariel, a town of approximately 20,000 people, the second largest Jewish settlement in the territories. To incorporate Ariel, the fence would have to extend approximately 12 miles into the West Bank. In response to U.S. objections, Israel is considering alternatives what would put Ariel outside the main security fence, but with some other fence around it.

Another place where it is necessary to deviate from the 1967 border is near Ben-Gurion International Airport. The fence must be placed far enough away from the airport to prevent terrorists from threatening civilian aircraft. This requires a band of territory of approximately six miles.

Palestinians complain that the fence creates “facts on the ground,” but most of the area incorporated within the fence is expected to be part of Israel in any peace agreement with the Palestinians. Israeli negotiators have always envisioned the future border to be the 1967 frontier with modifications to minimize the security risk to Israel and maximize the number of Jews living within the State. When the Palestinians stop the violence and negotiate in good faith, it may be possible to remove the fence, move it, or open it in a way that offers freedom of movement. Israel, for example, moved a similar fence when it withdrew from southern Lebanon. The fence may stimulate the Palestinians to take action against the terrorists because the barrier has shown them there is a price to pay for sponsorsing terrorism.

The Palestinians will also benefit from the fence because it will reduce the need for Israeli military operations in the territories, and the deployment of troops in Palestinian towns. Onerous security measures, such as curfews and checkpoints, will either be unnecessary or dramatically scaled back.

Inconvenience Versus Saving Lives
Every effort is being made to exclude Palestinian villages from the area within the fence and no territories are being annexed. The land used in building the security fence is seized for military purposes, not confiscated, and it remains the property of the owner. Legal procedures are already in place to allow every owner to file an objection to the seizure of their land. In addition, Israel has budgeted $22 million to compensate Palestinians for the use of their land. As of September, Palestinians had filed $2.2 million in compensation claims.

Israel is doing its best to minimize the negative impact on Palestinians in the area of construction and is providing agricultural passageways to allow farmers to continue to cultivate their lands, and crossing points to allow the movement of people and the transfer of goods. Moreover, property owners are offered compensation for the use of their land and for any damage to their trees. Contractors are responsible for carefully uprooting and replanting the trees. So far, more than 60,000 olive trees have been relocated in accordance with this procedure.

Despite Israel's best efforts, the fence has caused some injury to residents near the fence. Israel’s Supreme Court took up the grievances of Palestinians and ruled that the construction of the security fence is consistent with international law and was based on Israel’s security requirements rather than political considerations. It also required the government to move the fence in the area near Jerusalem to make things easier for the Palestinians.

Though the Court’s decision made the government’s job of securing the population from terrorist threats more difficult, costly, and time-consuming, the Prime Minister immediately accepted the decision and began to reroute the fence and to factor the Court’s ruling into the planning of the rest of the barrier.

The security fence does create some inconvenience to Palestinians, but it also saves lives. The deaths of Israelis caused by terror are permanent and irreversible whereas the hardships faced by the Palestinians are temporary and reversible."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...eace/fence.html

- woolfe

"After scores of suicide bombings and daily terrorist attacks against its civilians that have killed more than 850 people and wounded thousands more since September 2000, Israel’s unity government decided to construct a security fence near the northern part of the pre-1967 “Green Line” between Israel and the West Bank to prevent Palestinian terrorists from infiltrating into Israeli population centers. The project has had the overwhelming support of the Israeli public which sees the barrier as vital to their security.

I already notice garbage on the first sentence, it says :

After scores of suicide bombings and daily terrorist attacks against its civilians that have killed more than 850 people and wounded thousands more since September 2000

Ok, the first mistake is that the Palestinians dont attack the Israeli civilians daily, however, it could be said that the IDF gets attacked daily, but they said civilians .

The second mistake is that it includes the Security Forces (IDF and other), according to IDF statistics it says that since the begining of the Al'Aqsa Intifada 969 Israelis have died.

676 were civilians, for some reason which is not surprising, the Israelis decided to include armed settlers which die fighting with the Palestinians and die by being attacked by the Palestinians, it doesnt happen much, but it happens, and they should not be considered as civilians. So i wonder, out of the 676 Israelis that have died were armed settlers.

Third mistake, it calls the attacking of the IDF as terrorist attacks , i thought that it wasnt terrorist attacks because it attacks the military? 293 Israeli soldiers aka. war criminals have died since the begining of the al'aqsa intifada.

There is so much garbage, give me days to finish the rest......

[QUOTE]TWBR said this in post #35 :


Ok, the first mistake is that the Palestinians dont attack the Israeli civilians daily, however, it could be said that the [B]IDF gets attacked daily, but they said civilians .

Wrong. The attacks took place daily for a long time. Most of them were thwarted. You're thinking about successful attacks, not attacks.

The second mistake is that it includes the Security Forces (IDF and other), according to IDF statistics it says that since the begining of the Al'Aqsa Intifada 969 Israelis have died.

676 were civilians, for some reason which is not surprising, the Israelis decided to include armed settlers which die fighting with the Palestinians and die by being attacked by the Palestinians, it doesnt happen much, but it happens, and they should not be considered as civilians. So i wonder, out of the 676 Israelis that have died were armed settlers.

Fair point. The Palestinians have included such people as the suicide bombers themselves in their own statistics! So fudging numbers a bit is not unique to either side.

Third mistake, it calls the attacking of the IDF as terrorist attacks , i thought that it wasnt terrorist attacks because it attacks the military? 293 Israeli soldiers aka. war criminals have died since the begining of the al'aqsa intifada.

This is a semantic point, but the definition of terrorism is:

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

I have no problem with narrowing the definition some to exclude targeting military, which you might term "guerilla warfare" instead.

Bugs you, doesn't it? Reading stuff like this. How about them referring to the West Bank and Samaria and Judea, instead of the West Bank? It irritates me as well when I read stuff from your websites that calls suicide bombers "martyrs" and refers to Israel as "that Zionist entity" instead of by its internationally recognized name. Two can play at the propaganda war.

There is so much garbage, give me days to finish the rest......

Try responding to the substantive points in the article, not just the semantic ones. There is so much word play propaganda on your websites that most of the time I just ignore it.

- woolfe

InnerCityBlue,
you said:
"If India decided to build a wall in the Kashimir region, you know a lot violence would come out of it because there's a land dispute there, so it's not wise to build something that can breed violence."

Where have you been lately?
As we speak India is building a security fence to keep out Islamic terrorists in Bangladesh. And guess who is helping them build it? ISRAEL.
In fact Israel and India now have closer relations because of it. India has some
of the most intelligent people in the world in their country. My company does business with them every day. And they have nuclear weapons. Israel will have a very good alliance in India.

So, where is the UN in all of this? Why aren't they breathing down India's neck?
Furthermore, why isn't the UN involved in the fence in a SW portion of the USA to keep out illegal Mexican immigrants?

Where was the UN when the Berlin Wall was up?

Come to think of it...my adjoining neighbour has a security fence...I think I'll call the UN tomorrow am sharp to see if I can get them to tear down their security fence. I'm tired of not being able to use their BBQ without their permission.

Rock on Sharon!! Rock on!!

Found some more security fences existing today.

What about the security fences in Northern Ireland,
the borders of

Thailand/Malaysia
Kyrgyzstan/Uzbekistan
Kuwait/Iraq
Turkish Cyprus/Greek Cyprus
Saudia Arabia/Yemen
the DMZ in N Korea and S Korea ?????????????

Here are the details:

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/publ...m?doc_id=211945

yah and don't forget the Great Wall of China from back in the day to protect them against the Mongols

This is not helpful posting, but I am sick of long winded explanations on this topic. The fence is proper. Nothing more on this please.

Time for the ignore button, the more you talk, the more headaches i get.

Woofle, besides the first paragraph, the article just talks about how the Wall will save lifes and some other things.

I say, Build the wall all you want, but on Israel's land and go along the 67 Borders so Peace can be achieved, thats all i have to say.

You are seriously deceived if you think Arab issues are about pre-1967 borders and peace will be achieved by it. This didn't start there and the violence will not end there.

I didnt say that it was the ONLY thing that could help bring peace.

However you do admit it was violence that lead to Israel occupying these territories. So why do you think that peace will have a chance if they give them back?

67 War? When Syria put its troops along the Syrian border?

Let me make it plain.

The major beef (presently) is that Israel is occupying land beyond pre-67 borders. Palestinians NOW want this land to create a state of their own. If Israel gives back the land, why do you think this would ease tensions?

Are you aware that militants were bombing Israelis long before 1967? In fact the reason they lost these territories was because of hostilities. At that time they had these territories and Israel offered them more land for peace and they refused.

Now they lost and they want the spoils back. Now they suddently want to make a state out of the land they had in the first place. Now you somehow believe that "all militants want is 67 borders back".

I bet those militants can sell you sand in the middle of the desert.

Are you aware that militants were bombing Israelis long before 1967? In fact the reason they lost these territories was because of hostilities. At that time they had these territories and Israel offered them more land for peace and they refused.

Before 1967, there was no Intifada, and the things were very different that what they are now, if you want to back then, then i can do the same and will not be pretty.

Now you somehow believe that "all militants want is 67 borders back".


All militants?I do? According to what?

A period that is often overlooked is 1948-1956, where the Palestinians formed groups of Fedayeen which made border raids into Jewish settlements and Kitbutz's. Israel went into the Sanai in 1956 in part to get rid of these terrorist training camps. After the Sinai war, the situation eased a bit until the formation of the PLO in 1965.

- woolfe

I was waiting to spring that one on him Woolfe. He didn't respond yet.

What I find so disingenuous is how they pretend these hostilities are over the West Bank and Gaza.

It will always inherently be overlooked by pro-Palestinians because it simply sheds light on the truth. What is really at play here and it doesn’t fit their idea of Palestinians being victims of Israeli aggressions.