Israeli Settler killed by Al-Aqsa gunmen in West Bank ambush on car

Israel & Palestine Forum

Israeli Settler killed by Al-Aqsa gunmen in West Bank ambush on car

By Haaretz Service and Agencies

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/ECC6E239-2A25-46FA-8777-499D76E778E7/42036/011C6CB53C614410AFBD26B8994402E3.jpg
Jewish settlers refuse to leave Palestinian land

An Israeli man was killed and his wife was lightly wounded Sunday morning in a shooting attack near the northern West Bank village of Yabed.

The man was identified as Victor Kreiderman, 49, from the settlement of Mevo Dotan, the radio said. He was to be laid to rest Sunday at 5:30 P.M.

According to the initial investigation, the two were ambushed as they were traveling on the Yabed bypass road, around 6:30 A.M.

Shots were fired at their car as it passed between the settlements of Mevo Dotan and Shaked, the radio said. The man, identified as a resident of Mevo Dotan, sustained critical injuries and died a short while later; the woman was being treated for shock.

"Seven bullets were fired ... and one hit him in the head. He died at the scene and his wife telephoned [for help]," Moti Amir, the settlement's security officer, told Israel Radio on Sunday.

Amir said the couple had not followed procedure and set off without a military escort.

Troops were searching for the gunmen, who probably escaped to the village of Yabed.

The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an offshoot of Palestinian Authority chairman Yasser Arafat's Fatah faction, claimed responsibility for the shooting on Sunday morning.

Later Sunday Palestinians fired at an Israeli bus near the settlement of Ganim in the northern West Bank, Israel Radio reported. There were no injuries in the attack, but the bus was damaged.

A bomb was also set off on Sunday near IDF troops operating close to a refugee camp, north of Bethlehem in the West Bank. No one was injured and the device failed to inflict any damage.

IDF outposts near the West Bank settlement of Kadim also came under fire on Sunday.

Also Sunday morning, a total of five Qassam rockets were fired at Israel. Four landed inside Israeli territory, in the Negev, while the fifth landed inside Palestinian Authority-administered territory. No one was injured and no damage was caused.

Militants opened fire on IDF troops near Tarkumia, near Hebron in the West Bank, midday Sunday. No one was injured and no damage caused.

Late Saturday night, IDF troops foiled an infiltration attempt at the West Bank settlement of Bracha. An armed Palestinian who approached the settlement, which is located near Nablus, was killed.

Soldiers spotted the militant approximately 100 meters from the fence of the settlement. The Palestinian realized he had been seen and opened fire on the troops, who returned fire, killing the man.

A Kalashnikov assault rifle and several magazines were found on the militant's body.

Sources :

Haaretz - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/447070.html

Al'Jazeera - http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exe...99D76E778E7.htm

Palestinian killed in Gaza

An 18-year-old Palestinian was killed by IDF fire after throwing stones at troops in Beit Hanun in the northern Gaza Strip, Palestinian sources said Sunday evening.

On Sunday morning, a total of five Qassam rockets were fired at Israel. Four landed inside Israeli territory, in the Negev, while the fifth landed inside Palestinian Authority-administered territory. No one was injured and no damage was caused.

Militants opened fire on IDF troops near Tarkumia, near Hebron in the West Bank, midday Sunday. No one was injured and no damage caused.

Late Saturday night, IDF troops foiled an infiltration attempt at the West Bank settlement of Bracha. An armed Palestinian who approached the settlement, which is located near Nablus, was killed.

Soldiers spotted the militant approximately 100 meters from the fence of the settlement. The Palestinian realized he had been seen and opened fire on the troops, who returned fire, killing the man.

A Kalashnikov assault rifle and several magazines were found on the militant's body.

(Haaretz)

Palestinian shot dead in Rafah

Monday 05 July 2004, 4:30 Makka Time, 1:30 GMT

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/F371DFE2-1BA5-46A3-8AC1-53D0AD7587E7/42104/B6C5FF87251049E68F84598523137B66.jpg
Occupation troops have brought death to Rafah once more


Rifat Abu Amra was killed on Sunday evening as he walked through the streets of Rafah's refugee camp.

An Israeli bullet passed through the 28-year-old's neck and lodged in his head, according to Palestinian medical sources.

His death brings to 4,152 the number of people killed since the start of the Aqsa Intifada that began in September 2000 - 3,156 of whom were Palestinian.

Just hours earlier, Israeli helicopter gunships launched missiles in Gaza City and in the Nusairat refugee camp, badly damaging several workshops.

The first strike struck the northern part of Gaza City, while the second missile landed in the south-eastern Zaitun district.

A third missile was also fired on the Nusairat refugee camp south of Gaza City.

No casualties were reported from any of the strikes, but several of the buildings in industrial areas suffered extensive damage.

Al-Aqsa gunmen are not bad
but that is not enough
suicide bombers are the only way to hurt Israel
Israel got a powerfull army , palestinians got nothing
ok u will say it's a form of terrorism but it's the only logical thing to do...

Incase you haven't realized it Mikey, the wall is making it harder for suicide bombers to be "the only way to hurt Israel".

So if suicide bombings are less successful, what is your next suggestion, for Iran to nuke them?

Forgive me, I was intentionally making light of your name.

At any rate the wall is not going anywhere. If you think otherwise, then I believe you have another point of protest coming over the next century.

Secondly, I think your position is clearly obvious. You want the destruction of Israel. This is the mentality that has directly lead to the conditions in which we discuss in these forums today.

Personally I don’t believe you’re capable of rational and balanced opinion concerning this matter. Your entire region is peppered with anti-Israel propaganda. I don’t believe you know the difference to tell you the truth. It’s not that you are without some merit in your argument. It’s just that I’ve seen very few of you ever admit to any wrong doing among you concerning this matter.

Again with the same nonsense. First I was talking to Michel not you but since you weighed in on it with your continued skewed vision of the truth I’m compelled to reply.

We’ve been over the “Jewish Gangs slaughtered Palestinians” thing time again. Also this “ethnic cleansing” is ridiculous because it wasn’t the consensus of the Israeli government. You continue to ignore earlier atrocities committed by Palestinians and Arabs, some of which was the direct result in the making of these “Jewish Gangs” you so handily point out.

I ask what unfair UN partition plan? Show me the unfairness about it? What was unfair is Jordan taking ¾ of your land and leaving you all to suffer in refugee camps.

As for the “wall” it’s good for Israel’s security. I don’t suppose Palestinians would agree to anything that would make Israel safer. I don’t expect Israel to do the same for Palestinians. Facts are that the wall is more of the fruits beared from suicide bombings and mortar attacks on settlements. Not to mention bursting into Israeli homes and killing children as they sleep in their beds.

If you’re wondering how anyone can expect Arabs not to seek Israel’s destruction then you must also wonder why Israel don’t give a damn about whether any of you like the wall or not.

I thought you were talking about their decision in 1947. What unfair resolution are you referring to?

Again with the same nonsense. First I was talking to Michel not you but since you weighed in on it with your continued skewed vision of the truth I’m compelled to reply.

If you consider what i say the "skewed version of the truth" then you must seek medical and historical help.

We’ve been over the “Jewish Gangs slaughtered Palestinians” thing time again. Also this “ethnic cleansing” is ridiculous because it wasn’t the consensus of the Israeli government. You continue to ignore earlier atrocities committed by Palestinians and Arabs, some of which was the direct result in the making of these “Jewish Gangs” you so handily point out.

We havent been over anything, expect a thread about it, then we can discuss this.

The ethnic cleansing wasnt the consensus of the Israeli government is true, mainly because at the time that these incidents happened, there was no Israeli Government, Israel didnt exsist, Zionist Leaders supported this and actually ordered it to happen, expect me to prove it in the future thread.

I continue to ignore the attrocities committed by the Palestinians when it comes to these Jewish Gangs because were not discussing about why they were made, we are discussing about the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian villages.

What was their role? To protect the Jewish people? To ethnic cleanse Palestinian villages and create fear among the Palestinians ? We will see in the future thread.

I ask what unfair UN partition plan? Show me the unfairness about it? What was unfair is Jordan taking ¾ of your land and leaving you all to suffer in refugee camps.

The 1947 Plan, which gave more land (55%) to the Jews which at the time legaly owned about 7% of the land. I ask you, why should the Palestinian worry about why their brothers are getting more land when there are foreigners who are stealing their land?

As for the “wall” it’s good for Israel’s security. I don’t suppose Palestinians would agree to anything that would make Israel safer. I don’t expect Israel to do the same for Palestinians. Facts are that the wall is more of the fruits beared from suicide bombings and mortar attacks on settlements. Not to mention bursting into Israeli homes and killing children as they sleep in their beds.

You see? You only expect the good for Israel and not the Palestinians, there is a better solution than the Wall, Palestinians would agree to anything that is fair. Israel's security is not what the Palestinians are having trouble with.

If you’re wondering how anyone can expect Arabs not to seek Israel’s destruction then you must also wonder why Israel don’t give a damn about whether any of you like the wall or not.

I dont wonder why at all, they dont care about what the wall does to the Palestinians, Israel's security is the main thing for them, for them the Palestinians.....well......**** the Palestinians.

the truth is that Israel is an illegal state
this is the land of the palestinians
but the reality is that arabs can not destroy Israel
they tried many times and they still hate Israel but they failed and most of them recognized Israel
and one last thing : one day the wall will fall
just like in germany
is that clear oneofpeace ?

In your dreams Michel that wall will never fall because the hate you so eagerly boast of will never stop.

Comparing the wall to Berlin is simply more propaganda. Those on the other side are not trying to escape as it was with Germany. It's those on the outside trying to harm those on the inside.

Take your propaganda somewhere else. It's not flying here.

TWBR,
AND why do you think so many Palestinians are dying in ISRAEL?

If they would just live peacefully instead of making war on the Nation of Israel....no one would die.

But, nooooooooooooooo, the nation of Islam is waging war on Israel.... Islam is the agressor, and ISRAEL is holding their ground.
The PLO leader, oh yeah his name almost escaped me, Arafat....stated several times he wants ISRAEL in the sea.
Any nation worth its salt would fight back against this threat.
Many of the Palestinians want peace, but the nation of islam from surrounding countries doesnt want peace.

How many countries does the nation of islam want?
They have Sudan, Libya, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Qatar, Iraq--well maybe, Iran, Aghanistan--well maybe,
Pakistan, Uzbechistan, and on and on ad nauseum.

Why cant the Hebrews have a tiny tiny tiny tiny sliver in the pie?
It's extremely absurd.


MichelAoun,
Read the above and see how outlandish it is to suppose that the Hebrews cannot have a small country in a land dominated and surrounded by the nation of Islam.
It's stupid to say it is an illegal state, utterly RACIST and stupid..
I don't suppose you have a word in your language for racist because it would describe you to a tea.

Live peacefully and you won't have war at your doorstep.

TWBR,
Free speech is allowed in the USA, if you haven't forgotten.
And especially on the internet I can speak in whomevers thread I care to.

The truth hurts doesn't it? Especially when you know you are in the wrong.

Think with your brain and feel with your heart. Maybe you will get a clue one day.

Answer the questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AND why do you think so many Palestinians are dying in ISRAEL?

How many nations does the nation of islam want?

Why can't the Hebrews have a tiny tiny tiny tiny slice of the pie?

I read it. Same old propaganda.

Let me ask you this...are you personally a member of the nation of Islam?

I'll tell you I am not a zionist. I am a Christian.

And believe you me. I am not a "beginner" in this discussion.

Anyway, moving on....

I know why the Islamic nation wants Israel so bad. Jerusalem.
It's been sibling rivalry since the beginning of time--Abraham, the father of Isaac (the Hebrews) and Ishmael (Muslims). Jerusalem is the saced site for all of us...Hebrews, Muslims, and Christians.

All this talk of how the Zionists stole Israel from the Palestinians in 1947 pales in the comparison of the truth...who is the rightful heir to Abraham...Isaac or Ishmael?

The Hebrews believe the Torah which says the descendants of Isaac are the rightful heirs to the land.
The Islamic nation believes the sons of Ishmael are the rightful heirs.
The Christians follow the Old Testament...Torah.

You see, so all this fighting and bloodshed was prophesied thousands of years ago.

And it won't be long, because the end of all this will come soon.
I pray you will be on the winning side in the end.

sowhatsthetruth , u think that Hebrews must have a tiny slice , so they take the land of the palestinians and they kill them and force them to leave and that's it !! the state of Israel isn't illegal ! i am a racist and stupid :P
waw that's amazing
and the palestinians have all the arab countries to live there...
anyway all the countries are the same , because they are muslims !!!
nation of islam !!! that's your logic ?????????
one last thing : the christians don't follow the old testament
they have their new testament

MichelAoun,

In the instance of heritage under Abraham...yes the Christians follow the Old Testament. My Bible is made up of the Old and New Testaments.

Through faith in Messiah Jesus (Yeshua), Christians are adopted sons of Abraham. So we are given the same inheritance as the Hebrews through the adoption thru Messiah.

What do you know of the nation of Islam, being that you live in Lebanon? I am not being a smart alec, I am asking an honest question.

TWBR
I follow what the Bible says about this entire mess.
I outlined it for you above.
If you have a problem with it, take it up with Jehovah thru Jesus.
I am sure the Zionists as you call them, would hate me as much as you do, because I say that thru Jesus I am an adopted son of Abraham. So, dont assume I follow Zionism either.

AGAIN, Let me ask you this...are you personally a member of the nation of Islam?

If you are I don't expect you to hear the truth let alone believe it.

TWBR
I follow what the Bible says about this entire mess.
I outlined it for you above.
If you have a problem with it, take it up with Jehovah thru Jesus.
I am sure the Zionists as you call them, would hate me as much as you do, because I say that thru Jesus I am an adopted son of Abraham. So, dont assume I follow Zionism either.

AGAIN, Let me ask you this...are you personally a member of the nation of Islam?

If you are I don't expect you to hear the truth let alone believe it.

TWBR
I follow what the Bible says about this entire mess.
I outlined it for you above.
If you have a problem with it, take it up with Jehovah thru Jesus.
I am sure the Zionists as you call them, would hate me as much as you do, because I say that thru Jesus I am an adopted son of Abraham. So, dont assume I follow Zionism either.

AGAIN, Let me ask you this...are you personally a member of the nation of Islam?

If you are I don't expect you to hear the truth let alone believe it.

Screw what the Bible says, its so mest up, ill support the ORIGINAL Bible, but for now, the Bibles which Christians have right now are mest up.

Now, im not a member of the Nation of Islam, mainly because im not Black.

For those who are wondering, the Nation of Islam is a the false Black version of Islam.

TWBR
you said:
For those who are wondering, the Nation of Islam is a the false Black version of Islam.


No, that is a huge lie.

Answer this then... what is the Islamic jihad? I don't know of the Black nation of islam claiming this. You've caught yourself in another lie.

AGAIN, So, what is your belief system? I really doubt you are a peace loving hippie type.

You said:
ill support the ORIGINAL Bible, but for now, the Bibles which Christians have right now are mest up.


Where did you get this "original Bible" and where can I obtain one? Are you calling the Koran the original Bible perhaps? The Koran written only hundreds of years ago, not centuries like the true old and new testaments.

No, that is a huge lie.

Answer this then... what is the Islamic jihad? I don't know of the Black nation of islam claiming this. You've caught yourself in another lie.

AGAIN, So, what is your belief system? I really doubt you are a peace loving hippie type.

No its not a lie, its a false religion made by Blacks with a false Prophet which is Elijah Mohammed.

Its called the Nation of Islam aka NOI.

Come and take a look at their website : http://www.noi.org

There is the Nation of Islam and there is Islam.

Both can be similar in someways, same God, and some same teachings, but the Nation of Islam is false and Islam is not.

I am a proud follower of Islam.

Where did you get this "original Bible" and where can I obtain one? Are you calling the Koran the original Bible perhaps? The Koran written only hundreds of years ago, not centuries like the true old and new testaments.

Well the truth is, that the Original Bible is very similar to the Quran, but its not the Quran, the original Bible is the same Bible which was a book which was written by Jesus's apostles which had all of Jesus teachings.

As time went on, corrupt Christians adopted beliefs that Jesus never taught and added them to the Bible, Jews also did this to the Bible.

Did you know that the Bible forbids the consumption of Pork?

Finally, you admit you are islamic. Sorry, for calling it the nation of islam....but islam is still a nation. The Bible that you despise so much says that the descendants of Ishmael will have A nation. He blesses the descendants of Isaac with MANY nations.

And Islam is a violent religion. AGAIN what is the Islamic jihad? Answer this please.

The Bible is both the old and new testaments. The Old Testament is made up of the Torah-the law, the major and minor prophets, and the poetry. The new Testament was written by Jesus apostles.
The Old Testament was written thousands--about 6--years ago. The New testament was written about 1900 years ago.

And yes, I know the Torah forbids pork eating. But it also had 612 other laws that dont apply to me. When Jesus came to earth, he changed the rules, because he Himself IS the law. Jesus says He came to fulfill the law. Peter, one of the apostles, was commanded by God to end the prohibition of pork eating.

Christians are not saved by their actions or their works or by blind following of regulations of laws and regulations----legalism.
We are saved by believing in Jesus and his sacrifice for our eternal life.

Understandable confusion here regarding the Nation of Islam issue. TWBR is correct that the only present day group referring to itself a the "Nation of Islam" are the black muslims. Sowhats is making biblical reference to Islam being granted "Nation" status.

Incidentally, there are many, MANY, sects in the Islamic religion, and it is common for muslims to view rival sects as false. Very similar to protestants and catholics who each claim the other is not true Christinianity.

- woolfe

Such displays of religious intolerance from you both SWTT & TWBR.

First SWTT, thought ideologies may remain at root, we cannot deal with societies like they did in biblical times. In case you haven’t noticed times have changed. This is exactly what I perceive as the problem with Islamic believers. They operate on the “exact” principles of B.C. years and apply them to the present.

Truth is Israel is NOT without fault in this entire fiasco. They have much blame in this mess and need to clean up their act. I don’t believe God is pleased with their actions today. I do believe in their right to “defend themselves” however.

As for TWBR, it’s nothing but a merry-go-round with you. You continue to display some of the worst racial and religious bias I’ve ever seen, much of it rooted in hate and denial. Who gives you the right to say who is a “fake Muslim” and who is authentic? Do God give you an authenticizer or something. How dare you call black Muslims or the Nation of Islam a “fake” branch of Islam when Islam today have over 130 different factions of faith from the most extreme to the tolerant?

I am Christian myself SWTT. I understand what you are saying but those that are not Christian don’t. We don’t have all the answers and “he that hath an ear let him hear”. You cannot force our faith on those that haven’t the heart to receive it. Brush the dust from your feet.

As for Islam well there are those like TWBR and Michel here but there are those more tolerant without the extreme ideas they hold. Unfortunately most general sentiment isn’t very tolerant, hence the constant turmoil in that region.

Didn't mean to repeat some things you said Woolfe. I guess we got caught in between.

Woolf,
I agree.

oneofpeace,
I agree with much of what you said.
The only thing I differ from you is this.
Times have not changed. This war of religions has gone on since the beginning.
As Christians we are taught that we are not to aggressively kill another from a false religion. I do not, however, tolerate their ideology. I will say they do not have the truth.
And the Bible is not a revisionist book. That is like saying what so many politicians are saying today...the Constitution wasnt written for times like this and needs to be revised...then revise it, with an amendment, but that has only happened 27 times.
No, the Bible is an eternal book and if you truly study it, it warns of these times with clarity.


I still want to know from TWBR...What is Islamic jihad?

I know any more discussion of the truth of Christianity with him is throwing pearls before swine, but I still want to know from TWBR...What is Islamic jihad?

Of course I will agree with you on the bible SWTT but you have to understand that it’s there for those to accept or reject. We cannot make them accept our faith or beliefs. It is viewed very negatively in the ME and some of those nations will put you to death for converting to it.

I believe the bible is very relevant to our times but times have indeed changed. In fact, the Old and New Testament has differences in them based on times and current cultures. But you’ve made a good point, hence the old adage “the more thing change the more they stay the same”.

The problem with religious intolerance is when those in the 21st century want to apply the customs of 500 B.C. I believe extremists that bare the Islamic symbol is very good at this and it’s causing much of the conflict in that region.

As Christians we are taught that we are not to aggressively kill another from a false religion.

Sowhats: I am curious in light of this remark what you make of the Crusades?

- woolfe

OOP,

I am not afraid of speaking of Christianity to anyone. I will speak about Jesus a couple of times to see where they stand. If I see, they are adamant against hearing the truth, like I said I wont cast pearls before swine.
I have heard the same threats from satanists in this country, you know the ones who kill in the name of satan. Wasnt afraid of talking to them about Jesus either, but those who did not want to hear I let it go.
This whole idea of forcing and making people believe in a certain religion is ludicrous. I couldn't do it if I tried. I can only speak the truth and if they listen well then its between them and God.
Islam however, seeks to force their religion thru bloodshed. Just look at whats been happening in Sudan. Its not new. Since the 90's Muslims have been kidnapping Christian children and "making" them Muslim. Not that that can ever truly happen but they sure try. No one talks about whats actually happening in Sudan. Its not politically correct to address this. Madeline Albright skirted the issue and the only reason the US is involved now is because Europe with Blair and Chirac at the helm called the US on it, and want us to help the Sudanese.
Its not political bloodshed in Sudan, its religious.

What is your definition of religious intolerance?

Woolf,
I am studying the crusades.
Its hard with manmade history books to find out what actually happened. Because its very easy to revise history to suit your own ends.

From what I have seen, the Crusades are alot like today. Radical Islam seeks to overtake the world and force people into becoming Islamic thru violent means. When people fight back, they cry persecution.
Study what happened in Spain during this time and you will get some clarity on the situation.

The Inquisition, however is another story....it was flat out wrong.

The crusaders weren't really Christians. If you want to know more about this, ask me. They wore his symbols, had no access to the Gospels.

The only intolerant religion left in the world is Islam. All over the world, they are killing non-Muslims. Whether it be Jews in Israel, Christians in Iraq, Hindus in Kashmir, more Christians in Chechyna, or Buddists in Indonesia, they are "slaying the infidels" - taking after their prophet.

The crusaders weren't really Christians. If you want to know more about this, ask me. They wore his symbols, had no access to the Gospels.

Could you give me a source on that, that they had no access to the Gospels? Where did these people hear about Jesus if they had no access to the Gospels?

The only intolerant religion left in the world is Islam. All over the world, they are killing non-Muslims. Whether it be Jews in Israel, Christians in Iraq, Hindus in Kashmir, more Christians in Chechyna, or Buddists in Indonesia, they are "slaying the infidels" - taking after their prophet.

I'd say they're the most intolerant of the major religions at this moment in history, but religious intolerance exists everywhere.

- woolfe

Michel,
You blurted:

the old testament is nothing to the christians but history
the new testament is everything to them"

Wrong. Way wrong.

You live in a country full of and surrounded by Islamics. And you dont even know who they are?
Do you live in a cave? Maybe its just a language barrier.

OFP, could you do me a favor, and no longer talk about me, thanks.

You guys go have fun sharing your ignorance. Im here to be entertained.

TWBR,

AGAIN, in your own words please oh "wise" one...

WHAT IS ISLAMIC JIHAD?

and how do they relate to the intifada?

On another thread, we are still awaiting your version of 9/11 and the Zionist connection.

Why are you so afraid to answer these simple questions?

I am not afraid to answer any question, i just dont like to waste my time for people like you.

Since you seem to love the Pro-Israeli bias, why dont i get the pro-israeli BBC profile of the Islamic Jihad :

Who are Islamic Jihad?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1000000/images/_1004099_bombap300.jpg
The group has carried out a string of attacks against Israelis

Islamic Jihad is a mysterious presence among militant Palestinian groups.

The faction has a small support base. Unlike the far bigger Hamas, which runs schools and hospitals, Islamic Jihad has no real social or political role.

The group is based in the Syrian capital, Damascus, and its financial backing is believed to come from there and Iran.

Islamic Jihad is committed to the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel through holy war. It also opposes pro-Western Arab governments.

The Palestinian Islamic Jihad originated in the Gaza Strip during the 1970s.

Assassinated leader

It traditionally tries to carry out attacks against Israeli targets on the anniversary of its murdered leader Fathi Shaqaqi in Malta in October 1995.

The group operates primarily in Israel and the occupied territories, but has also carried out attacks in Jordan and Lebanon.

Other than Thursday's bomb attack in central Jerusalem, the most recent attack by Islamic Jihad took place on 17 July this year. A suicide bomber killed two Israeli soldiers in northern Israel.

Have fun.

Oh guys, give me time on the Zionist connection to 9/11, me and some friends are in the middle of researching.

TWBR,

Come on guy....I asked for YOUR description of Islamic Jihad. I could find this story anywhere....

Again, IN YOUR OWN words....what is Islamic Jihad? How does it relate to the intifada?

You obviously rely on internet news for every opinion you hold.
I am interested in what YOU think, not the media.

The Christians don't follow the Old Testement, they merely believe in it.

For example, they don't keep kosher, observe the Sabbath like Jews, to them the New Testament replaces it and they only have to follow the 10 commandments. So Michael, you're actually right.

sowhatsthebullsh*t, do me a favor, and dont ask me any more questions or talk about me.

better yet, ignore button works fine.

AZ2004, Michel,

There is more to the Old Testament than the law. The Torah is only the first five books...there are 33 other books in the Old Testament.
The major and minor Prophets, for example, Isaiah, Ezekial, Daniel, Zechariah...
are prophetic of today and the future.
The book of Psalms is used in many of our songs.

No where in the New Testament does it say Christians are to follow the 10 commandments. The ten commandments are only 10 of 613 laws. If we had to follow one of those edicts we would be obligated to follow them all.

No, the apostle Paul gave a more stringent list of sins. And like I said, Christians arent saved by following a list of rules and regulations we are saved by believing in Jesus. Obeying Him is a result of salvation, though as humans we fail sometimes.


Michel and TWBR,
If you blokes don't want to share your beliefs and views that's cool.
It just gives us more fodder to speak of you by the actions we see coming from Islam. And that ain't pretty.

So if you disobey all the laws but still have faith, then you're saved?

- woolfe

The logic in your question is skewed:

"So if you disobey all the laws but still have faith, then you're saved?"


First, which laws are you talking about, here Woolfe99?

The laws of the Torah found mainly in Leviticus?
These laws deal alot with burnt-offerings and sacrifices, consecration of priests, what to eat, what to wear, laws prohibiting certain sex acts, etc.

When Jesus sacrificed Himself on the cross for our sins, it ended the need for legalism and adherance to the law. He became the sacrifice for everyones sins.
Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. He fulfilled the law on the cross.

The Bible says "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

I am not saved by what I do, but I am saved by placing my faith in Jesus and His work on the cross. Jesus paid the debt for my sins, so they will not be held to my account. My sins...past and future...are forgiven.

Salvation brought a change in my spirit. My spirit is now eternal and I am a new creation.
My flesh still has the tendancy to sin. When I was saved, God did not abolish my flesh. My Spirit struggles with my flesh every day, and will continue to do so until I leave this world.

Paul gives a more stringent list of sins than the law....
Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred....wrath, murders....etc.

I obey Christ and the doctrine of the apostles because I love Jesus for what He has done for me...not because of my own rightousness, or because I fear death.
I have eternal life and nothing I do, no demon, no human being can take that away from me.

Some Christians and Catholics disgust me, they swear that they are followers of Jesus, but they go to night clubs half naked, they have sex with people who they only met once, they buy porn magazines and videos, and more.....

For TWBR there is no hope. He has been indoctrinated by his propagandist friends. His ranting spews hate and intolerance much like his people and is at the core of the conflict there in the ME.

I find it funny how he doesn't want the world to judge Islam by the violence and beheadings Muslims perform but post a statement such as this in these forums. But I've grown to expect such nonsense from the likes of him and his cronies.

I've asked you several times, this is not a bashing forum, DO NOT TALK ABOUT ME, thank you.

If you participate in this forum then you are judged by your words. You are certainly not beyond mentioning.

I suggest if you don't want your name brought up here, you stop posting (such nonsense). You know what they say. Out of sight, out of mind.

Just because your brain is not able to recognize whats the truth and whats not, doesnt mean that mine cant, and everytime i post, i try as hard as possible to show the truth, so dont critize me or see my posts as false because you dont have the same views and beliefs as i do.

Woolfe,

You said:
Suppose you have faith in Jesus because continue to commit these various sins you refer to because you are too weak. Are you still saved?

First off. In both the old and new testaments it teaches that those who are weak, they are made strong in God. God really cant work with someone who feels strong in themselves...who believes they are sufficient in only themselves. Though he has been known to humble many people. Nebuchadnezzar, for instance, the King of Babylon.

Yes, salvation is eternally secure.

The Bible teaches that believers who continue in sin will suffer the consequences in this life...some will lose their physical lives to keep them from continuing in sin.

I have seen this on several occasions. There was a pastor in town who was having sex with the women in the congregation. He was confronted by the congregation with these allegations. Shortly, after he was confronted, he protracted a rare skin disorder where all of his skin came off his body. His body was bare raw. You can imagine how painful that was. It took a long time for him to recover. He has stopped the shinangans, but has never repented of his wrongdoing to this day. Many of his congregation are coming into our church.

Another: the son of one our elders was saved, yet he was a drug addict. He died of a drug overdose at a young age.

Another: My friends son is saved and was a drug addict and pedophile. He is doing time in prison.

The lesson here is...if we were perfect we wouldn't need Jesus.


Also, the Bible teaches that those who continue in sin and have wrong motives will lose rewards at the Judgement seat of Christ. Our works will be either qualified as wood, grass, and straw....or as gold purified in the fire.
Those whose works are as gold will be rewarded greatly...those who are as wood, grass, and straw...well their works will burn up in the fire. Heaven is still their reward and that is a great reward, considering the alternative.

TWBR



Pretty soon these "friends" of yours will try to convince you to pack explosives on your torso and walk into a shopping mall.

I told you it wouldn't be pretty.

Woolfe,

Interesting questions indeed!

Your first question:
Doesn't this cause people who are weak to sin? What I am saying is that if you believe, then you know that if you sin you are going to be absolved. It's like a get-out-hell free card.


The Bible teaches that Christians are "translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God's dear son."
It's like if someone who had lived in the previous government of Iraq had moved to the USA and had become a legal US citizen. He is no longer under Iraqi laws, but is allowed the full freedoms and liberties of a US citizen. If he breaks US law, he suffers the consequences of legal action and imprisonment. He no longer faces, however, the punishment afforded him under previous Iraqi laws.

Also, Christians are "born into the family of God." A Christian cannot become "unborn" if he sins. An unruly child, however, will face the chastisement/discipline of a loving Father, but he will not face His wrath.

Also, it says "What shall we say? Shall we remain in sin, so that Grace would abound? We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it?"
Here, then, the prescence of the flesh is not an excuse for walking in it.


Your second question:
"Why would God reward a believer who constantly treats his fellow man poorly, and not a non-beliver who is a paragon of virtue?"


To pose a question...."Why would God.....?"
is like a clay pot questioning the motives/actions of the potter, the one who formed the pot. Who are we as mere mortals to question a divine God and his dealings with people? It's truly His business.

I'll still try to give an answer to the intention of your question.

Bible says, "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." Filthy rags here refers to rags used to stop the flow of menstral blood. A pretty graphic description of what we (both Christians and non-believers) do in our flesh.

Without being regenerated and made a new creature a "paragon of virtue" is still a slave to sin. They cannot please God no matter what they do. Their works are not Godly, they are still works of the flesh.

A non-believer is in rebellion against God. As a result, he can never please God while in this state. Anything he does is done to profit himself, not to give glory to God.

TWBR the conversation is useless with this kind of people

Thats why i have the ignore button.

Yea whatever, keep on running your mouth, i don't really care what you have to say about me.

The point is you don't care period. That's why you don't even attempt to find any truth. Just anything and everything that support your absurdities.

Stand Up Comedian, thats what i think of you.

"The history of Islam, which was my special area of study, could only be characterized as a river of blood"

--Mark A Gabriel, phd
former professor of Islamic history at AL-AZhar University, Cairo, Egypt
formerly Islamic, now a Christian

From his book: Islam and Terrorism