I read one message here about American patriotism. I personally have a few points that I hope all Americans might consider. I think it would be beneficial for all Americans to begin rethinking their way of life, their belief systems and so many other aspects of their culture. I am not saying that American patriotism is a bad thing. But like anything, this can be carried to extremes. It is this extreme behavior that is the most worrisome for me.
When I read messages on the internet or see Americans standing proudly, I get a queasy, uneasy feeling. I am saying this because as a Canadian, I would really like to reach out to Americans with a sincere and honest message. America has the most powerful military. Many Americans see no problem with carrying guns. With waging wars on smaller countries. With threatening other countries who do not subscribe to their ideals, their beliefs and their goals.
And it's so much more than this. It's teaching your children to recite the pledge of allegiance in the morning in school. An even more shocking and disturbing image is that on TV, a religious program I saw showed a minister praying for the "duty" that the soldiers were performing in Iraq to oust Saddam Hussein. I personally think that going into another country and killing people has little to do with christian love. Jesus taught to love your enemies.
But I digress. I think it is ultimately about American patriotism that I am trying to get at. Americans SEEM to be totally obsessed and absorbed by the patriotism they have for their country. Almost a "messianic" love for their country. It seems to me that Americans (well, many of them I've seen posting on the internet and so on) have absolutely no doubts whatsoever about thier government and their way of life.
But as an observer, I see so many things about the US that just don't make sense. The violence that is so prevalent there is probably the main point. It just seems as if this is something that is just accepted. There is no going back. No way to fix it, therefore, it is just accepted. There is also plenty of poverty there as well.
I'm not trying to say Canada is just the bees knees either. We have crime and poverty, heavy taxation, unemployment, pollution, corrupt politicians. We have seperatism and racial hatred. The French and English don't always get along. But I do think we have a better way of looking at things.
You know, someone once said that in Canada, we're not "doers" we're "observers". I think this is certainly true. We keep a low profile and we don't want to upset people or other countries. We just want to work and live and survive and hope that we don't ruffle anyones feathers. That we are "observers" is probably the biggest difference between us and your country. We also tend to have less trouble that way most of the time.
So, please. Listen to someone who would like to see the whole world become a better place. Listen to someone else's point of view and think about what they are saying. One message on this forum read:
"We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives "every" citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But
once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE..."
Please try to understand that this is not good foreign policy. I bear no personal ill will to the US, but I can only see darker days ahead for your nation.
Look, I'm sure that Americans are annoyed with everyone saying how terribe they think the US is. I think this is a very important point and this is probably the main reason for Americans resenting people from other countries. But I do know that the US is a beautiful country with many wonderful people in it. You have a great economy, a big music industry, the movies and so many other wonderful adavantages over most nations of the world. You have a wonderful climate and can pick a fresh orange right off the tree if you live in Florida. In Canada, we have cold winters with ice and snow and our summers are really short.
The truth is, you have so much to be thankful for that I think many take it for granted that it will always be there. Your government has always said that "America is the greatest country in the world".
So how do you want your country to be remembered? For War or Peace? Tyranny of Freedom? I personally can see that living in many places in the US would not make me feel like I was free. Overpopulation, smog, violence, murder... it all sounds so depressing.
I would humbly ask that you as well as many other Americans really stop and think about what other nations might actually have to say. That for once, you look deep down inside and ask yourself if you believe in American ideals because you were taught them, or if you think that maybe all of this patriotism isn't such a good idea?
I know I am long winded, but I am really trying to go somewhere with all of this. I would hope that you would look deep down inside yourself and for one single moment, for just one time ask this of yourself and your country, that maybe, deep deep down, that there may be the slightest chance that the US isn't so "right" after all? That waging wars on unseen terrorists isn't such a good idea? That the TV and the President are only telling you what you want to hear? That maybe the problem isn't just everyone else, but that maybe the US is part of the problem too? Isn't there just the tiniest shred of doubt in your government? Do you never ever question it's actions? Can your faith really be this blind? I agree that Saddam had to go, I just don't agree with the method.
The only way for this world to survive is for each and every one of us to put down our prejudices and childish fears and look at ourselves and ask if we are really right after all. And that maybe for once, someone might take an interest in what their neighbor has to say. We all need to live together as this world gets smaller and smaller. We also need to listen to each other if we are to make any sense out of all the madness.
I don't know, maybe you'll just think I'm a crackpot who doesn't know what he's talking about. Have I made any sense? Will just one person out there start to re-think "The American Dream"? I don't know if this message will help at all, but I am really trying to extend the alm leaf to those who think that the war and guns and invading other countries is the answer. The real truth comes in asking the question.
but I don't think they will listen, I notice that most americans take it as an insult when other countries give them advice, regardless if it is sincere or not
When I read messages on the internet or see Americans standing proudly, I get a queasy, uneasy feeling.
Why do you get this feeling? Americans have a lot to be proud of. Every American should stand proudly. We are hard workers and the most productive country in the world.
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Many Americans see no problem with carrying guns. With waging wars on smaller countries. With threatening other countries who do not subscribe to their ideals, their beliefs and their goals.
The right to keep and bear arms is part of our constitution. It is one way that we Americans insure our freedom. Just remember that to live free comes at a cost. This is the land of the free and the home of the brave. "Without the brave, there is no land of the free."
Another thing, We do not threaten countries that are peaceful to us. If we are threatened, we will defend ourselves and we have every right to. Amendment II (The United States Constitution)
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
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And it's so much more than this. It's teaching your children to recite the pledge of allegiance in the morning in school.
I proudly (and every American should) pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands. One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
What the hell is wrong with pledging allegiance to your nation?
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You know, someone once said that in Canada, we're not "doers" we're "observers". I think this is certainly true. We keep a low profile and we don't want to upset people or other countries. We just want to work and live and survive and hope that we don't ruffle anyones feathers. That we are "observers" is probably the biggest difference between us and your country. We also tend to have less trouble that way most of the time.
If America took that stance, we would have been invaded years ago. If feathers are ruffled by us, it usually means that our feathers were ruffled first and why should we allow someone to ruffle our pretty feathers? I mean come on... America... an observer.??? We are definately doers. We are not in a popularity contest for world approval. We make things happen and we take care of our national interests. Question: If Canada were invaded or had something terrible happen to it, who do you think would be the first to avenge it? The good ol' U.S.A. that's who. Just because you do not approve of this war, don't tell this country how to take care of itself. We have been here over 200 years and are doing just fine without you.
I have no problems with Canada. Infact, I am rather fond of my neighbor to the north. I think that everyone would like to live in peace. The best way to have peace is to make someone think twice before doing something they might regret. Peace through strength. Just make sure that you know that the same strength that I speak of keeps your land safe as well. I have faith that the CIA and other intelligence in America have way more info than you or I. We are doing the right thing by getting rid of people who pose a threat to our way of life. Like I said before, Freedom comes with a price. If you are not willing to fight for the most precious thing in life, Why do you live? Think about it.
Let's just say that your mother is the most precious thing in the world to you. If someone threatened to kill her, would you take action against it and try to prevent it or would you just let her die so as not to piss off who wants to kill her.
Well the U.S.A. is my mother and I will do what it takes to keep her alive. Even if it means pissing a few people off.
Well, let's see. Your premise is that many nations view our pesident and nation as a war-mongering cowboys. While the polls in the country which we just "invaded" would undountedly come out in favor us. A curious situation - eh?
I've travelled to over 25 countries throughout the world, including Canada. Do you know what I've learned? The vast majority of people I've met, including Canadians, are very patriotic to their homeland.
So why, as Americans, do we not have the right to be patriotic to our homeland? And yes, we take great pride in the fact that our forefathers (who, by the way, all came from foreign cournties) built what is one of, if not THE, greatest country on the planet.
Also of interest is a recent international poll in Dec. 2002 which indicates that a majority of people in the world are uncomfortable with the United States being the only superpower in the world. However, the majority also indicated that they would rather have the US as that superpower than any other country.
And by the way, I hope you've been watching news. If you watch the news and interviews with all of our soldiers, you'll notice that, although they take great pride in begin American, all of them, to the man, are showing nothing but respect for the Iraqi people and their country. They also indicate that they are willing to risk their lives to protect the Iraqi people and free them from a despotic regime.
Is the this behavior of a self-centered country with over-zealous patriots?
With our military supremecy, we could easily destroy Iraq with overwhelming force and turn it into a wasteland. However, we put our own sons and daughters at greater risk to wage war in a way which minimizes the impact on the Iraqi people and their country.
In fact, after watching how we have conducted this war, I have even more pride in my nation than ever. Not because we can mow down a ruthless dictator with incredible military technology and skill, but because we are a country which builds the character
of our citizens (as reflected by our soldiers) which can respect and show compassion for a people half a world a way with a completely different culture.
First: Canadians would could do with a little more patriotism. The only thing we seem to get upset over is if someone says something bad about our hockey or our beer. In Canada we seem to give up our traditions in order that we don't offend someone. What do I mean by that? In many schools in the GTA we no longer have "Christmas" plays & assemblies. Now we have "Winter Festivals". Why? Because we don't want to offend people of non-christian religions. The Canadian Mint decides to change the song "12 Days of Christmas" to "12 Days of Giving". Why? Because good Canada doesn't want to offend anyone. You can't say "Merry Christmas", you have to say "Happy Holidays". Do you think Americans would change their customs and traditions just in case they MAY offend someone?? I make a bet they wouldn't! Yes, some Americans go over the top with patriotism, but Canadians sure could use some.
Second: It is pretty easy for us to be "observers" when you know you that your friend and neighbour is the toughest kid on the block. It is easy for our government to take the moral high ground, when we know the Americans will protect us. The Canadian government has depleted our military so badly, that it is a joke. Most countries around the world could kick our butts. A few years ago the Canadian government cut the military budget so that we had a standing army of only 60,000. The sad thing is that our recruiting is so bad, the pay is so bad, that we could not even recruit enough people to reach 60,000. But hey, why do we need a military when we can let the Amercians spend the money on theirs? The simple fact is, America could never allow Canada to be invade, because it could not risk having an enemy parked on it's border. Our government knows this, and suddenly we have become "observers".
Well the U.S.A. is my mother and I will do what it takes to keep her alive. Even if it means pissing a few people off.
You don't understand OnenationunderG.
Usa used to be the big brother, protecting other countries.
GI's were the good guys, fighting fo freedom, against fanatism.
Your country was a model of democracy..
But that was the past.
The big brother is now arrogant , dangerous, unpredictable. Intimidating third world countries. Trying to split Europe. Refusing UN approval. Acting against laws.
You are no more the good guys. You are mercenaries, lead by a dangerous guy.
I hope you can see how hypocritical you have been. By engaging in your little diatraibe and not respecting US culture and US patriotism and telling us how morally superior your coutnry is, you youself are engaging in the very act of which you accuse us. It seems that arrogance is not a uniquely American trait.
Any else reminded about Jehovahs Witness' when they read some americans trying to justify themselves? (Apart from the bad language.........fundamentalists jehovahs witness'!)
I have taken the time to answer your questions. Albeit thy are short answers.
Do you ever feel unpatriotic? NO
Do you feel guilty about that? NO
Do you feel your children are safe from gun violence in school? YES
Do you feel safe walking the streets at night? Absolutely
Has someone you know been affected by gun violence? NO
Do you think violence is the answer to problems? NO
Did you know that 42% of Americans are convinced that Saddam Hussein was behind the attacks on the World Trade Center and not Osama Bin Ladden? I don’t pay attention to Opinion Polls.
Did you know Osama Bin Ladden hates Saddam Hussein and refers to him as "Infidel"? Yes, but you and I also know he has sent his soldiers to training there.
Would you rather kill someone or die first? I will kill for my country and to protect my family.
Do you read the New Testament or the Old Testament? I’ve read both.
What is your religious belief system like? I was brought up Christian but I am also a realist.
Do you think that War on Iraq was a Christian thing to do? This is not about Christianity or Islam so I don’t believe it is a relevant question.
Would you be willing to wage war on American soil, endangering the lives of your families and friends? We have already waged war on Terrorism and my family and friend’s lives are in jeopardy.
Have you seen the footage on TV of the dead children in Iraq? How does this make you feel? I feel the same as seeing dead children in the U.S. or anywhere else. Every country has lost their share of children in the pursuit of freedom.
Does your government always tell you the truth? Of coarse not, they are still human and for that matter neither does any other country’s government.
Did you know North Korea is developing Nuclear Weapons? Do you know why? Because they are threatened by being a government of oppression and feel they need to protect their beliefs from democratic and freedom loving people. This suites the paranoid thinking of a government that rules with an iron fist instead of diplomacy.
Do you think Nuclear War could never happen? Absolutely.
Do you think "Might Makes Right"? Of course not.
These are just questions about important issues. No one has to answer them. They are here for you to think about. I expect no one to answer them.
Is violence the solution? It is sometimes necessary.
Why is our world so violent? Because we are human beings who are natural predators in the animal kingdom. This is why we eyes in the front of our heads. It is so we can see our prey. Man has always been violent and will always be violent. To think that we can change our genetic make-up is absurd.
Do you believe in God?
See above.
Do you believe in loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek? I believe in treating people with respect and in turn demand respect.
Do you think America is really a "Free" country? Yes I do but, each person’s view of freedom differs. If you are a criminal, you may not think so. If you are a respectful and decent human being, then you may think so.
What is "Freedom"? Freedom is, not having to worry about having you tongue cut out for criticizing the government.
Freedom is, not having to worry about being jailed for not having my presidents picture displayed in my home.
Freedom is, being able to pick my career path go to college and not have it decided for me by my government. I.e. Russia.
Freedom is, being able to attend and witness in any religion I chose.
Freedom is, being able to pick the media to which I may get my information and not having it spoon-fed to me by a government run media.
There are a million reasons to search for freedom. Unfortunately some Americans on this board take for granted what they actually do have.
Does "Freedom" really exist? It exists in my heart and I am happy. You can never take my freedom because I won’t let you.
Originally posted by ickle With our military supremecy, we could easily destroy Iraq with overwhelming force and turn it into a wasteland. However, we put our own sons and daughters at greater risk to wage war in a way which minimizes the impact on the Iraqi people and their country.
Theoretically you could but in reality this is plainly wrong! The American people would not put up with turning Iraq into a wasteland. You would get no where near the death tolls of Vietnam before the war was stopped by protest at home (I hope).
50,000 dead US troops
2 Million dead Vietnames
The government knows any large casualties and it would get kicked out of office immediately. It is the reason you cannot use nukes unprovoked.
I am not a patriotic fanatic. I do trust my government to act in the best interest of my country. If they don't, they will be held accountable.
So with all the white noise generated by the media, fanatics on both sides, and the dull humm of the fence sitters, I rely upon my own ability to reason, my experience, and my FIRM belief that my government is far more trustworthy than Iran, Iraq, Libya, China, the French, etc.
Is that patriotism? Even though my government may not be perfect, its much better than most others. The US bears a huge responsibility for the security and safety of much of the world. We have for the last 60+ years. Many countries don't bear this burdon, and its associated costs, and can sit comfortably on the sidelines.
One thing I still don't get - How is it that the French can call the American's arrogant? Is that not a lark? The French... calling the Americans... arrogant!?! Whew!
So after a Frenchman says something like that, I automatically know that everything he thinks or says has little value.
Now if the Frenchman were to say: "Look you stupid uncultured American fool, with your Hollywood, fast food, and uncouth ways, I don't like you and don't want you going to Iraq because we have business interests there. If you try to do it, I will oppose you at every turn and rejoice at every stumble you make. If you succeed it will be a death knell for our influence in the region. I will promote a wave of popular opinion against you, create fear and disgust, and ride that wave to return France to its rightful position of preeminence in Europe and the world."
If he said that I would at least respect him for his honesty.
The only reason we Canadians can be "observers" is because the Americans are protecting our defenseless country. Look at how the Americans always stand together during a crisis, no matter who they are, we can't say the same about Canada.
Now if the Frenchman were to say: "Look you stupid uncultured American fool, with your Hollywood, fast food, and uncouth ways, I don't like you and don't want you going to Iraq because we have business interests there. If you try to do it, I will oppose you at every turn and rejoice at every stumble you make. If you succeed it will be a death knell for our influence in the region. I will promote a wave of popular opinion against you, create fear and disgust, and ride that wave to return France to its rightful position of preeminence in Europe and the world."
If he said that I would at least respect him for his honesty.
Well, sorry to disapoint you once again, but this will never happend, because it would be lies to say that we have business interests in Iraq.
You are really pathetic thinking of that.
HOW THE HELL COULD IT BE MORE FINANCIALLY INTERESTING TO MAKE BUSINESS WITH IRAQ THAN WITH USA, GB AND AUTRALIA?
Seems you never made business mate...
Admit it or not, We stand for what we believe is right, even if that means beeing dishonest for you. (I don't want to alarm you, but in that case Canada, Neutral Belgium, Ireland, Germany, Austria, Neutral Switzerland, Greece, Turkey and France are all dishonest, with Spanish, Mexican, and a British and American citizen opposed to war. Go and get some more weapons, the world is populate with dangerous and dishonest people! )
Regarding Medias, Europe is lucky for that. If youdon't believe your government, just switch to a foreign channel. Swiss medias ar interesting, or Italian or Spanish medias too. They are either against, and it's good to see ther arguments, or either neutral:we have the choice
Iraq 1 was justified, Afghanistan was justified, IRAQ 2 was not justified, and still now, the world is still waiting to see your WMD...
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The right to keep and bear arms is part of our constitution. It is one way that we Americans insure our freedom. Just remember that to live free comes at a cost. This is the land of the free and the home of the brave. "Without the brave, there is no land of the free."
Another thing, We do not threaten countries that are peaceful to us. If we are threatened, we will defend ourselves and we have every right to. Amendment II (The United States Constitution)
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
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*To have to carry a gun means that you need it. That shows a lack of feeling secure amongst US people. BRAVE is not to carry a gun. BRAVE is not to need one.....
*N.Vietnam,Panama,Chile,Greece. Were this countries attacking USA? Why then they either have beeen attacked or had their goverments replaced by military coups supported by USA?????
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If America took that stance, we would have been invaded years ago. If feathers are ruffled by us, it usually means that our feathers were ruffled first and why should we allow someone to ruffle our pretty feathers? I mean come on... America... an observer.??? We are definately doers. We are not in a popularity contest for world approval. We make things happen and we take care of our national interests. Question: If Canada were invaded or had something terrible happen to it, who do you think would be the first to avenge it? The good ol' U.S.A. that's who. Just because you do not approve of this war, don't tell this country how to take care of itself. We have been here over 200 years and are doing just fine without you.
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Nobody invaded Switzerland.
And as you say you have only been here for 200 years and your histrory is very small to look back and learn from mistakes. Look in some older civilizations Greek,Roman,Chineze,Egyptian with thousands of years presence in this world to learn what they did good and what bad....
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Well the U.S.A. is my mother and I will do what it takes to keep her alive. Even if it means pissing a few people off.
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Does your mother carry the bigest oil reserves in the world
(please dont take it personall about your mother.I dont know the lady.)? Why USA didnt attacked Turkey when they invaded cyprus(1974)????
There are numerous UN resolutions on that case. I will tell you why.Unfortunatelly for Cyprus it doesnt have OIL..[/B][/QUOTE]
Well, sorry to disapoint you once again, but this will never happend, because it would be lies to say that we have business interests in Iraq.
Ooops. I thought the French did business with Saddam and had lot's of contracts under the UN Food for oil program.
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You are really pathetic thinking of that.
uh - huh.
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HOW THE HELL COULD IT BE MORE FINANCIALLY INTERESTING TO MAKE BUSINESS WITH IRAQ THAN WITH USA, GB AND AUTRALIA?
Wasn't it a Frenchwoman who said she wanted to have her cake and eat it too? I suppose the French think they can do business with whomever they want. The French have a contract an 800,000,000.00 contract to feed US Marines, and you are historically one of the largest western arms/equipment suppliers to Iraq.
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Seems you never made business mate...
I would never be os arrogant as to compare my business savvy with that of yours...
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Admit it or not, We stand for what we believe is right, even if that means beeing dishonest for you. (I don't want to alarm you, but in that case Canada, Neutral Belgium, Ireland, Germany, Austria, Neutral Switzerland, Greece, Turkey and France are all dishonest, with Spanish, Mexican, and a British and American citizen opposed to war.
I'm sorry, could you please clarify what you belive is right.
Saddam is right and the US is wrong? Saddam good/US Bad...
The UNSC should not enforce its ultimatums?
Saddam complied with 1441 (immediately, unconditionally, completely)?
It was ok for France to help the US (at last) and use force in Kosovo without a UNSC resolution, but its not OK for the US to use force in Iraq to enforce a UNSC ultimatum?
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Go and get some more weapons, the world is populate with dangerous and dishonest people! )
The world is full of dangerous and brutal regimes. You seem to prefer it that way. OK.
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Regarding Medias, Europe is lucky for that. If youdon't believe your government, just switch to a foreign channel. Swiss medias ar interesting, or Italian or Spanish medias too. They are either against, and it's good to see ther arguments, or either neutral:we have the choice
We get the same thing in the US. I watch Canadian news and every night you can even watch the arab media coverage!
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Iraq 1 was justified, Afghanistan was justified, IRAQ 2 was not justified, and still now, the world is still waiting to see your WMD...
I doubt very much that you would change your mind even if we found WMD. Being French means never having to say you are sorry...
Of course, if ANY other country in the world had thought that Saddam was in compliance with UNSC resolutions, they could have come out and said it. But that would require bravery of course. Why did France sign 1441 that condemned Iraq for non-compliance if France thought that Saddam was in compliance? If poor Saddam didn't have WMD, he did a god awful job of proving it to the world over the 12+ years following Res. 687. No UNSC members ever came out and said he was in compliance. Wouldn't it have been easier if he had invited in thousands of inspectors and pro-actively disarmed in 1991? Big mistake by Saddam. He probably just figured that the UNSC would never enforce its resolutions anyway. Oooops.
Originally posted by OneNationUnderG
Another thing, We do not threaten countries that are peaceful to us.
America has helped topple POPULAR democratic governments and replaced them with some of last centuries most horrific regimes. Every heard of South American CIA trained death Squads that ruled using the subtle tactics of murder, rape and torture.
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One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
You have probably the most unequal society in the world. Check the gap between rich and poor.
BUT and this is an enormous but, America is also a great country and the majority of people are like people everywhere good and honest. Britain is also a great country but I can accept we have done and probably will continue to do some horrendous things. Your rosy unquestioning view of America is dangerous.
America has helped topple POPULAR democratic governments and replaced them with some of last centuries most horrific regimes. Every heard of South American CIA trained death Squads that ruled using the subtle tactics of murder, rape and torture.
Do tell...
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You have probably the most unequal society in the world. Check the gap between rich and poor.
I prefer equal opportunity to equal distribution.
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BUT and this is an enormous but, America is also a great country and the majority of people are like people everywhere good and honest. Britain is also a great country but I can accept we have done and probably will continue to do some horrendous things. Your rosy unquestioning view of America is dangerous.
Lot's of reasonable people on both sides have been polarized by this issue. Bottom line is I am far more likely to believe what my government and independent analysts and media say to what Saddam, Chirac, the Libyan's, Chinese, etc., have to say on the matter. Call me patriotic I guess.
I really can't be bothered. Go to the library and read a book.
Charles: I prefer equal opportunity to equal distribution.
Do you honestly think a man like Bush would have become president if he wasn't born into a hugely rich and powerful family. (Actually scrap that, I forgot about Ronald Readen. If he can make it there, he can make it anywhere, it's up to you...)
Charles: Call me patriotic I guess.
Patriotism is fine but it's far more complicated than the kind of message I'm getting from you.
I really can't be bothered. Go to the library and read a book.
Charles: I prefer equal opportunity to equal distribution.
Do you honestly think a man like Bush would have become president if he wasn't born into a hugely rich and powerful family. (Actually scrap that, I forgot about Ronald Readen. If he can make it there, he can make it anywhere, it's up to you...)
Charles: Call me patriotic I guess.
Patriotism is fine but it's far more complicated than the kind of message I'm getting from you.
LEt's start by not being naive and thinking that the world or any person or any government is perfect.
Please provide me with an example of any country as large, as ethnically and culturally diverse, that provides MORE equal opportunity.
Our Sec State is African American. Some of our top generals are African American. Dr. Rice is African American AND a woman. They attended and graduate from top schools. That general fellow (can't recall name) was the first African American to graduate top of his class at West Point. These are top notch people with excellent careers.
In short, I think its pretty clear that your ability to achieve success in our society is heavily dependent upon your god given abilities, discipline, and ambition. I don't think our society is perfect, but I don't think that smart hard working people are doomed to fail because of artificially established barriers. America to be sure has one of the most open societies in the world.
There are many countries and regimes that stand juxtaposed to our values. This is a source of conflict. We are never going to be truly chummy with brutal dictators as we are with our frineds the Brits. Just won't ever happen. Take a look at the regimes we have opposed in the past. There is a fundamental difference in values: Hitler, USSR, China, NV, NK, etc. Take a look around the world and you can bet that our enemies are the ones who oppose our values. Don't be morally bankrupt and fail to make a distinction between the US historic support of individual freedom and openness on the one hand, and regimes that demand individual subjugation and oppression in all its varied forms on the other hand. These value systems do not have the same intrinsic worth.
PS - I've read a few books - lol. My favorite is "Go dog go!". Have you read it?
LEt's start by not being naive and thinking that the world or any person or any government is perfect.
We agree on something
Please provide me with an example of any country as large, as ethnically and culturally diverse, that provides MORE equal opportunity. Our Sec State is African American. Some of our top generals are African American. Dr. Rice is African American AND a woman. They attended and graduate from top schools. That general fellow (can't recall name) was the first African American to graduate top of his class at West Point. These are top notch people with excellent careers.
America is a big country and I'm not arguing
Don't be morally bankrupt and fail to make a distinction between the US historic support of individual freedom and openness on the one hand, and regimes that demand individual subjugation and oppression in all its varied forms on the other hand. These value systems do not have the same intrinsic worth.
I didn't even try. I never mentioned anything about freedom. But freedom's a big and complicated issue.
America is just as good as any dictatorship at hiding the brutality it carries out in other countries. And most of the time, Americans don't even know it's going on. You may be a free but what does that matter when your media has stopped even pretending to "tell it like it is."
Thankfully there are plenty of Americans who have begun to not believe the bullsh*t they are being spoonfed. In fact Seattle protests against the WTO was probably the first time I'd heard about globalisation so much credit to them for that. America has a great history of protest. Long may it continue
America is just as good as any dictatorship at hiding the brutality it carries out in other countries. And most of the time, Americans don't even know it's going on. You may be a free but what does that matter when your media has stopped even pretending to "tell it like it is."
What "atrocities" are currently being undertaken by the USA that we do not know about?
I thought you could at least come up with the US support for contras against the Sandanistas (of course you would ignore Sandanista support for what were they called? FMLA? and their atrocities....
first off america vs iraq? who here has beat the piss out of a 4 yr old, probaly not to many of you. comparing their armies and weapons thats what the states is doing. be as patriotic as you want....in YOUR country. if patrism is killing millions of innocent people, yes a say millions add it up nagasaki hiroshima bagdad, should i keep going? if you step on everyones toes they are bound to step back sometime, and read the definition of terrorism, how do u think those people in bagdad feel, saying goodnight to their family and it is always a possible goodbye. have a heart.
crazychris - good point. This was all realized by the fact that we knew we could easily take them. Would we have taken this action if Iraq had Russia's military power...I think not.
Threerandot - thank you...I agree with everything you said. Heightened Patriotism can be bigotry in reverse. The bigot says a certain group is inferior, and is predisposed to attack the other. The patriot will say that they themselves are superior, and is ready to attack the other. The core concept of patriotism is very understandable - to defend one's self - the self now being the country. But the problem lies in a hyper-sensitive defensiveness, and little or no concern about the righteousness of the government's actions. The patriot has more of a blind faith that it'll support whatever the government does - especially if it's in regards to war. The greatest example of a patriot is the soldier himself - he is trained and brainwashed to hate the guts out of the enemy, and most importantly - to follow orders. This requires a faith that whatever the boss is doing must be the best thing possible. Every country on this earth has patriots, I'm sure. So the "best thing possible" comes down to not what the underlying reasons for the battle are, but simply to defend the country. So right = defend the country. And when the gray area of defending vs. offending is crossed (like the U.S. may have), then both sides are simply fighting to survive. They're both doing what's "right" according to the patriot. Winning, or proving one's self right, is then measured by who side had less death.
There's never been a war started by a government that didn't believe that what they were doing was just and right. It's impossible. Have you ever heard of a country declare war, with them making a statement that they know they're doing the wrong thing? Of course not. It's not a matter of riteousness, it's a matter of selfishness. Countries attack each other for personal gain. There is never any other reason. As we "mature", but only just enough to start to recognize this, we make attempts to have better reasons for aggression. Hence the threat of WMD, and then the better yet war marketing of "Iraqi freedom". It's also like the bully on the playground pushing around the smaller kid because he knows all the other kids are looking, and they'll all see that he's not one you want to **** with. Bush said it today (4/15)...paraphrasing, "let this Iraqi victory show evident that America should not be messed with".
So the deep rooted self-centered mentality that we’ve developed (that no other animal has) has disillusioned us into fighting destroying others in cases where the physical danger may be very low, but the ego is greatly threatened. Read Hitler’s speeches to the German public during his rise, and it’s not surprising one bit why he came to power. He had a beautiful way of boosting the German citizen’s ego after a crushing defeat of WWI. The human ego is extraordinarily powerful, and it is the evil in man. The ego is a hyper-selfishness that no other animals have. Other animals will defend themselves under immediate threat. But no other animal judges! No other animal considers the concept of right or wrong, moral or immoral. No other animal punishes. A lioness who’s lost her cubs to hyenas will mourn her cub’s loss, but will not seek revenge. Revenge is solely the product of the human ego.
The ego lies to us and tells us that we are superior to everyone else. It has us take credit for talents instilled in us from birth. Whenever we are judgmental, we are comparing that person to ourselves, using ourselves as the reference (or at least including ourselves in a group), and saying something like “you idiot”. Well, our egos love that, because it’s really telling us, “I’m not like that, I’m better”. This is the sole motivation of the ego – to have us believe that we are superior. And it no problem whatsoever lying to us to achieve that. In fact, it has no other choice – it has to lie. We look at easy examples of people who do horrible things to others, and instead of acknowledging that they are sick, misinformed, misdirected, etc., we call them bad. Though I’m not a Christian, the bible has a great truth in it when it says “forgive them, for they know not what they do”. This is so important because it tells us why we should forgive them, but more important still, why they did it! The fact is is that whenever we doing something “wrong”, hurtful, self-centered, ego based, etc, we are doing it because, and only because we don’t know what we’re doing. Everything we do, we feel is right at the moment we are doing it. When we drop our ego, look at ourselves, we then sometimes (too rarely) realize that we were being selfish, immature, vengeful, and then we hopefully make amends. Remember, it is impossible to say to another person, “you’re being selfish” without being selfish too. In effect, the person is saying, “see, you’re just thinking about your own best interest, what about mine?”. It’s like saying, “don’t think about you, think about me”…perfectly self-centered.
So patriotism, just one of the thousands of products of the ego, has a somewhat sincere attempt of self preservation, but it’s greatly distorted, and based on a lot of bad information. Mental conditioning that originated in Man thousands of years ago (just read the bible) that has become our “nature”. But our nature is largely the product of conditioning. Go to any other country, live in it awhile, and you’ll see the variations in the mental conditioning. People in other cultures don’t get mad at the same things, don’t value the same things, and simply don’t react the same way as others…all conditioning we acquire from all our peers and the previous generation. I say this because we can learn a lot of good from this. Spend some time in France or Switzerland and you’ll find qualities (and deficiencies) that we don’t have – simply because they were mentally wired differently by their culture.
Having lived in France for several months, I was able to see Americans much differently. I didn’t like what I learned. This wasn’t something that I was able to realize by traveling through a country for a week on vacation. I, an American myself, had no idea how gluttonous Americans are. Our rich country of opportunity, and the mental conditioning, that money has such tremendous value, has us striving headlong for material wealth. But I also saw that Americans are gluttonous in many other ways as well. Americans suffer from obesity, alcoholism/addiction, addiction to money and addiction to fear - like other countries cultures have simply not implanted in them. Let me tell you objectively, and I am an American, and am including myself in this statement, that comparatively speaking, Americans are a very self absorbed, self-centered, addictive people. We’ve been conditioned into thinking that the key to happiness and the solution to our problems are money, food, chemicals, respect, and a wide variety of other things that we can get or ingest.
It’s the self-centeredness! John Lennon said in his song, “Imagine there’s no countries”. Without explaining it, he saw that peace lies in the realization that we are all the same, all equal. True peace is only achievable by a neutral position or condition. Peace is the balance, it’s neither a positive force nor a negative one, not superior or inferior. Positive and negative forces have a draw of energy to them – they are a restriction of free flow. Peace is freedom is neutrality. There is no such thing as “freedom at a price”. But if there is, the price is relief of self. When we realize fully that true happiness, peace, freedom are achievable by selfless giving, not by getting, then we will have evolved one big chunk.
I thought you could at least come up with the US support for contras against the Sandanistas (of course you would ignore Sandanista support for what were they called? FMLA? and their atrocities....
Examples. Most of these have been pretty well documented by myself and others on this board many times, but I will go through a few.
Lets start with Guatemala. Guatemala had a democratically elected, social democratic government. They favoured unions and helping the poor people of their country. One of the measures they took, was to take away land from the united fruit company. This was land not actually used by the company, and the government offered compensation to the tune of the amount the company had claimed the land was worth for tax purposes. This land was to be given to the poor peasants. In retaliation for this, the US funded, trained and armed militia to stage a coup, during which the US bombed Guatemala city. Tens of thousands of Guatemalan people died in the ensuing fighting and civil wars. Over a hundred thousand more have been slaughtered by the US backed dictatorship since.
All of this for a bananna company.
Chile also had a democratically elected leader till the US replaced it with a vicious and cruel dictator. September 11th came the American terror network to bomb and kill Salvador Allende. You might think the fact that this 1 day saw an almost identical number of dead people as America's september 11th would make 911 1973 just as etched into people of the world's mind as 911 2001. You might also find some irony in the fact that the then US installed dictator Pinochet was equally as brutal a dictator as also US installed dictator Saddam, but was great friends with the US. Chile was not a threat economically or militarily, but more ideologically.
"I don’t see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist because of the irresponsibility of its own people." — Henry Kissinger, "national security" adviser to Nixon, referring to Chilean voters in 1970. That is what America thinks of democracy.
Venezuela is another nation whereby the US is currently attempting its old tactics of replacing democracy with dictatorship. The US backed the failed coup against Chavez, so basically watch this space. I cannot see Bush and co just taking this lying down, since Chavez actively trades with Cuba, and is increasing the 1% oil slice in order to pay for social programs for the massive percentage of poor people. ExxonMobil and Phillips Petrolium are 2 companies that certainly do not want this to happen, and are major Bush contributors.
If you need any more examples, I can provide more detailed explanations of agression in places such as Laos, El Salvador, Iran, Vietnam, Cuba etc etc.
Examples. Most of these have been pretty well documented by myself and others on this board many times, but I will go through a few.
Lets start with Guatemala. Guatemala had a democratically elected, social democratic government. They favoured unions and helping the poor people of their country. One of the measures ........................, I can provide more detailed explanations of agression in places such as Laos, El Salvador, Iran, Vietnam, Cuba etc etc.
You left GREECE out mate. For those that dont know in 1974 the goverment was overthrown by a military coup that was supported by USA(For those who will question even that see Foreign office files for 1974). People were killed and tortured. At the end we had the Cyprus tragedy that has its roots also on this military coup. Do you need more proves...?????
Ooops. I thought the French did business with Saddam and had lot's of contracts under the UN Food for oil program.
DID. As you said. 15 years ago. Rumsfeld made go his business with Iraq a bit longer, as you certainly know...Oil is awfully expensive in France: we should make a bit more business to lower the price. Thanks for your idea mate.
Why do Allies troops find US weapons and no French weapons in Iraq?
quote:
Originally posted by Charles
I suppose the French think they can do business with whomever they want. The French have a contract an 800,000,000.00 contract to feed US Marines, and you are historically one of the largest western arms/equipment suppliers to Iraq.
Sorry mate, french food tastes better than burgers!
quote:
Originally posted by Charles
I'm sorry, could you please clarify what you belive is right.
Saddam is right and the US is wrong? Saddam good/US Bad...
Saddam is wrong and dangerous.
Bush is wrong too, and dangerous too.
Is that clear enough?
quote:
Originally posted by Charles
The UNSC should not enforce its ultimatums?
No, but USA has no right to speak and decide for UNSC.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles
Saddam complied with 1441 (immediately, unconditionally, completely)?
Never. But this can't justify a US war.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles
It was ok for France to help the US (at last) and use force in Kosovo without a UNSC resolution, but its not OK for the US to use force in Iraq to enforce a UNSC ultimatum?
That's something new... I will investigate and come back to u.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles
The world is full of dangerous and brutal regimes. You seem to prefer it that way. OK.
Felt safer with a dictator of a third world country, than with a cowboy in Washington. Bur I prefered Clinton:its less dangerous to play with girls than with weapons.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles
We get the same thing in the US. I watch Canadian news and every night you can even watch the arab media coverage!
can't speak for Canada but you sure need to watch it more. But Arab medias are not neutrals. Swiss are.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles
I doubt very much that you would change your mind even if we found WMD. Being French means never having to say you are sorry...
Still waiting to see chemicals mate. And other proofs, this time not coming from a student's essay... Beeing French etc... please stay polite.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles
Why did France sign 1441 that condemned Iraq for non-compliance if France thought that Saddam was in compliance? If poor Saddam didn't have WMD, he did a god awful job of proving it to the world over the 12+ years following Res. 687. No UNSC members ever came out and said he was in compliance. Wouldn't it have been easier if he had invited in thousands of inspectors and pro-actively disarmed in 1991? Big mistake by Saddam. He probably just figured that the UNSC would never enforce its resolutions anyway. Oooops.
France , as US and other countries, signed it, and let the work be done by inspectors- thanks to US military presence- who confirmed that they were disarming Iraq. If Inspectors said : war is necessary, than no discussions and lets war begin...THEY DECIDE.
Russia's Military Power? What power would that be?
The Russian military is a total joke. The only thing to wreckon with in regards to Russia is its nuclear weapons.
Actually, I wasn't sure. I knew they had a big military at one point, but thought maybe it was diminished now. My point being another large, formidable military power. However, I wouldn't call nuclear weapons a joke.
Originally posted by threerandot Hello to America from Canada:
I read one message here about American patriotism. I personally have a few points that I hope all Americans might consider. I think it would be beneficial for all Americans to begin rethinking their way of life, their belief systems and so many other aspects of their culture. I am not saying that American patriotism is a bad thing. But like anything, this can be carried to extremes. It is this extreme behavior that is the most worrisome for me.
When I read messages on the internet or see Americans standing proudly, I get a queasy, uneasy feeling. I am saying this because as a Canadian, I would really like to reach out to Americans with a sincere and honest message. America has the most powerful military. Many Americans see no problem with carrying guns. With waging wars on smaller countries. With threatening other countries who do not subscribe to their ideals, their beliefs and their goals.
And it's so much more than this. It's teaching your children to recite the pledge of allegiance in the morning in school. An even more shocking and disturbing image is that on TV, a religious program I saw showed a minister praying for the "duty" that the soldiers were performing in Iraq to oust Saddam Hussein. I personally think that going into another country and killing people has little to do with christian love. Jesus taught to love your enemies.
But I digress. I think it is ultimately about American patriotism that I am trying to get at. Americans SEEM to be totally obsessed and absorbed by the patriotism they have for their country. Almost a "messianic" love for their country. It seems to me that Americans (well, many of them I've seen posting on the internet and so on) have absolutely no doubts whatsoever about thier government and their way of life.
But as an observer, I see so many things about the US that just don't make sense. The violence that is so prevalent there is probably the main point. It just seems as if this is something that is just accepted. There is no going back. No way to fix it, therefore, it is just accepted. There is also plenty of poverty there as well.
I'm not trying to say Canada is just the bees knees either. We have crime and poverty, heavy taxation, unemployment, pollution, corrupt politicians. We have seperatism and racial hatred. The French and English don't always get along. But I do think we have a better way of looking at things.
You know, someone once said that in Canada, we're not "doers" we're "observers". I think this is certainly true. We keep a low profile and we don't want to upset people or other countries. We just want to work and live and survive and hope that we don't ruffle anyones feathers. That we are "observers" is probably the biggest difference between us and your country. We also tend to have less trouble that way most of the time.
So, please. Listen to someone who would like to see the whole world become a better place. Listen to someone else's point of view and think about what they are saying. One message on this forum read:
"We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives "every" citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But
once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE..."
Please try to understand that this is not good foreign policy. I bear no personal ill will to the US, but I can only see darker days ahead for your nation.
Look, I'm sure that Americans are annoyed with everyone saying how terribe they think the US is. I think this is a very important point and this is probably the main reason for Americans resenting people from other countries. But I do know that the US is a beautiful country with many wonderful people in it. You have a great economy, a big music industry, the movies and so many other wonderful adavantages over most nations of the world. You have a wonderful climate and can pick a fresh orange right off the tree if you live in Florida. In Canada, we have cold winters with ice and snow and our summers are really short.
The truth is, you have so much to be thankful for that I think many take it for granted that it will always be there. Your government has always said that "America is the greatest country in the world".
So how do you want your country to be remembered? For War or Peace? Tyranny of Freedom? I personally can see that living in many places in the US would not make me feel like I was free. Overpopulation, smog, violence, murder... it all sounds so depressing.
I would humbly ask that you as well as many other Americans really stop and think about what other nations might actually have to say. That for once, you look deep down inside and ask yourself if you believe in American ideals because you were taught them, or if you think that maybe all of this patriotism isn't such a good idea?
I know I am long winded, but I am really trying to go somewhere with all of this. I would hope that you would look deep down inside yourself and for one single moment, for just one time ask this of yourself and your country, that maybe, deep deep down, that there may be the slightest chance that the US isn't so "right" after all? That waging wars on unseen terrorists isn't such a good idea? That the TV and the President are only telling you what you want to hear? That maybe the problem isn't just everyone else, but that maybe the US is part of the problem too? Isn't there just the tiniest shred of doubt in your government? Do you never ever question it's actions? Can your faith really be this blind? I agree that Saddam had to go, I just don't agree with the method.
The only way for this world to survive is for each and every one of us to put down our prejudices and childish fears and look at ourselves and ask if we are really right after all. And that maybe for once, someone might take an interest in what their neighbor has to say. We all need to live together as this world gets smaller and smaller. We also need to listen to each other if we are to make any sense out of all the madness.
I don't know, maybe you'll just think I'm a crackpot who doesn't know what he's talking about. Have I made any sense? Will just one person out there start to re-think "The American Dream"? I don't know if this message will help at all, but I am really trying to extend the alm leaf to those who think that the war and guns and invading other countries is the answer. The real truth comes in asking the question.
threerandot
Very well said.
This is what is worrying every sane, logical intellect throughout the world at this moment in history. This is what it comes down to...hegemony...not just as a concept...but as a way of life...it's Hitler's Super Nation all over again
frenchfries, I like what you're saying...thank you. It's so nice to have mature dialog, without the put-downs and slander. It often makes it easy to understand other aspects of the person's mental maturity.
Are you French? You sound more Aussie with the "mate" use.
I miss France (with that, I'm sure I'll get a few "then go back there" comments - help yourself).
Originally posted by Tdog
I miss France (with that, I'm sure I'll get a few "then go back there" comments - help yourself).
Tdog
then go back there
just kidding.
seriously though, you have to see the connection between france's apparent empathy towards the iraqis and the fact that the coalition's efforts conflict their investment interests in that country. iraq also owes france a bunch of money. billions. when that debt is removed by the coalition, france will have to pay out of it's own pockets.
same deal with russia, germany.
when has a european country's gov. ever stood up and said anything about hussein, or the regime, or the fact that iraq trains terrorists, and their people are sickly oppressed to extremes most people will not understand because there aren't any colorful photos of the 1.5 million muslims hussein and his regime have killed .
now, you tell me, how many of those do you think did something to deserve it?
they're fine as long as the oil keeps coming. and then you have countries like syria, who say noo we don't support the regime, everything we do is legit, and they have a pipeline smuggling oil. the syrian and iraqi gov. make millions upon millions in profit. meanwhile, hussein is telling iraqis that the americans are starving them because they have imposed sanctions, when he's supposed to be using that smuggled oil to get food into his country. and many organizations and religious powers are simply scared of saddam....plain and simple. they want no conflict with him, and they will not dare to speak against his 'lawful' rule [as abu abas once said]
it's ridiculous. and now canada suddenly thinks they're hardcore and tells the u.s it will not hand over any iraqi regime members or even hussein if they somehow end up in canadian hands. real intelligent thing to say. even if they don't want to support the war, what are they doing saying things like that? the american gov. is edgy right now, and statements like this are just a way to give canada some attention i think.
i feel bad for these countries because things like the boycott of french products has affected it's economy. i personally would not care enough to boycott french products but, to each their own...
i think it's interesting that many people talk about the coalition and constantly refer to it as 'america' or 'bush' or the 'u.s.' england isn't involved? austalia isn't involved? do they not have the support of many other countries, e.g spain?
when i see this over and over again in posts it becomes easy to pick out people who post just to ***** about america, and don't actually care about the conflict.
seriously though, you have to see the connection between france's apparent empathy towards the iraqis and the fact that the coalition's efforts conflict their investment interests in that country. iraq also owes france a bunch of money. billions. when that debt is removed by the coalition, france will have to pay out of it's own pockets.
I actually question this claim. My impression is that the debt is not being wiped, merely deferred. The new Iraqi government will still have to pay back thier international creditors of old, but a payment scheme will be organised so that the debts can be repaid over a period of time that the new Iraqi government will be able to afford.
Originally posted by Tdog
Threerandot - thank you...I agree with everything you said. Heightened Patriotism can be bigotry in reverse. The bigot says a certain group is inferior, and is predisposed to attack the other. The patriot will say that they themselves are superior, and is ready to attack the other. The core concept of patriotism is very understandable - to defend one's self - the self now being the country. ...
It’s the self-centeredness! John Lennon said in his song, “Imagine there’s no countries”. Without explaining it, he saw that peace lies in the realization that we are all the same, all equal. True peace is only achievable by a neutral position or condition. Peace is the balance, it’s neither a positive force nor a negative one, not superior or inferior. Positive and negative forces have a draw of energy to them – they are a restriction of free flow. Peace is freedom is neutrality. There is no such thing as “freedom at a price”. But if there is, the price is relief of self. When we realize fully that true happiness, peace, freedom are achievable by selfless giving, not by getting, then we will have evolved one big chunk.
There is never anything to fear.
Americans should FEAR the likes of Tdog. He'll turn US Soldiers into suicide bombers!
canada turned its back on us when needed so i say boycott canada, france and other so called allies that stand behind patriosm,and human rights, while in the shadows you all have your own aggendas, oil, sell of weapons, and other deals you had with iraq, while you preach the good , in the shadows your dealing in crud. And you have the right to point fingers and judge us while all your shadey dealings with saddam go on and men and women die. So before you point fingers, clean up your closet first and i say boycott them us, all of them
canada turned its back on us when needed so i say boycott canada, france and other so called allies that stand behind patriosm,and human rights, while in the shadows you all have your own aggendas, oil, sell of weapons, and other deals you had with iraq, while you preach the good , in the shadows your dealing in crud. And you have the right to point fingers and judge us while all your shadey dealings with saddam go on and men and women die. So before you point fingers, clean up your closet first and i say boycott them us, all of them
canada turned its back on us when needed so i say boycott canada, france and other so called allies that stand behind patriosm,and human rights, while in the shadows you all have your own aggendas, oil, sell of weapons, and other deals you had with iraq, while you preach the good , in the shadows your dealing in crud. And you have the right to point fingers and judge us while all your shadey dealings with saddam go on and men and women die. So before you point fingers, clean up your closet first and i say boycott them us, all of them
canada turned its back on us when needed so i say boycott canada, france and other so called allies that stand behind patriosm,and human rights, while in the shadows you all have your own aggendas, oil, sell of weapons, and other deals you had with iraq, while you preach the good , in the shadows your dealing in crud. And you have the right to point fingers and judge us while all your shadey dealings with saddam go on and men and women die. So before you point fingers, clean up your closet first and i say boycott them us, all of them
Originally posted by Enigma
I actually question this claim. My impression is that the debt is not being wiped, merely deferred. The new Iraqi government will still have to pay back thier international creditors of old, but a payment scheme will be organised so that the debts can be repaid over a period of time that the new Iraqi government will be able to afford.
well you're wrong.
the reason that you're wrong, and i already explained this, is because the iraqi people will not be responsible for paying a debt which they had no part of creating in the first place. i hope this mak
