US Foreign Policy

U.S. Foreign Policy Forum

A man is driving along and his car breaks down. He needs to get it working again.

He gets his sledgehammer out of the trunk and starts wailing away on his car.

Hey, at least he's doing something and not just opening the hood and trying to figure out what the problem is.

It's men like this guy who get things done. Men of action, not men of thought.

This analogy doesn't apply to US foreign policy even a bit. However you have an opinion - just like everybody - and we respect it.

the analogy applies very well

if you want to argue that the US is under the hood diagnosing the problem, let's argue

but you respect my opinion, and for that, I have respect.

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2004/US/07/04/fourth.wrap/top.liberty.jpg

Lets start with what 'car' refers to in real life. Hammering the car obviously is not going to make it better.

car is symbolic of terrorism/Middle East issue in general, invading Iraq being taking a hammer out and hitting the car.

Yes, you are right, hammering the car obviously is not going to make it better.

I see people saying things like "hey well at least the United States is doing something."

I posted this metaphor to show that doing something is meaningless if you don't know what the hell you are doing. Just because you are doing something does not mean the situation is going to get better. In fact, as the metaphor shows, it can actually make things worse.

us foreign policy is wrong and full of injustice
in 1990 , us let the syrian kill my people
in 1991 , us let saddam destroy the guerilla in the south
and now they are killing the people in irak
the war was wrong and unjustified
WMD ? what WMD ?? and lets say that saddam had WMD
who give it to him ? the USA !!

http://www.inreview.com/showthread....=371#post402828

http://www.fincen.gov/hr3162.pdf

The forces of fear, as seen in much European appeasement to Islamo-fascist dictators, and in the daily pronouncements of the French and German governments ("may they rot in the hell of their own making") shows us that these "Old Europeans" have learnt little from the past. Just like during the Munich Olympics in 1972, or the refusal of overflight rights to American military jets attacking Libya in response for the Pan Am Lockerbie murders, and many other examples over the last thirty years, that some Europeans are more comfortable to appease in the hope of buying another day, month, or year of "peace" at the price of a much bloodier future, and their own further moral failure.

http://www.inreview.com/showthread....=371#post402828

Curley, for god's sake, you don't actually think Europe is doing what they do to appease the terrorists do you?

I myself have been guilty of childish name-calling from time to time, but when you actually start to convince yourself that they are "pathetic Europits and terrorist appeasers" and that the US are the saviors of the world, liberator of mankind from evil, and that Europe is a bunch of pansies who are scared and are doing what the Islamofascists want out of fear, I really really start to question your sanity.

MichelAoun,

The WMD's you speak of, all over the Middle East, came from Russia and are being deployed by Iran. Saudia Arabia purchases them.
Yes, the US sold weapons in the late 70's and during the 1980's
to people ALL OVER the globe.
Why? To give them a taste of destruction.
Now those people are addicted to it.

The nation of Islam is NOT an innocent victim here. World domination has always been its stated goal thruout the centuries.

The entire middle east, except for Israel, and most of Africa...SE Asia, now Europe, Eastern Europe, France, Britain, Germany, and a large part of Russia are ALL being overrun by the nation of Islam.

islam is making a try for the USA...and when we fight back you claim....poor me they are trying to kill us. bullsh!t. utter bullsh!t

Also, your stated goal is to run Israel into the sea. And when they fight back you say....poor me, look how they are trying to kill us. bullsh1t. Utter bullsh!t!!!

I have NO sympathy for the nation of islam. They have made their bed and now they must sleep in it.

You have 2 choices....
1) come out of the nation of islam by realizing you are an
illegitmate son of Abraham...
or 2) await your fate...it won't be pretty...and there will be no 19 virgins or however you are promised.

It's your choice.

And that's the truth...so suck it up.

http://www.inreview.com

Dekka,

Unfortunately, Curley Joe is correct about Europe being extremely mamsy pamsy when it comes to the nation of islam...the terrorists. (Why is everyone so frightened of calling a spade a spade?---terrorists = the nation of Islam...guess its just not politically correct to identify your true enemy anymore is it?)

Anyway, I have a friend from Britain who moved to the US. Her father in Britain has a Christian radio ministry there. Well,
the nation of Islam sent him death threats thru various means for years...they still are. They want him to stop the Christian radio ministry.

She explained that the nation of Islam IS just that....a nation....
In Great Britain they have taken over economically and judicially.
In fact, the people of Islam do not follow the British Parliament.
In Britain, Islam has its own parliament and they follow it not the British Parliament.

She warned us to not allow the nation of Islam to overtake our country. You see wars are not solely acts of violence...it includes taking over the economy from within.

So I boycott businesses I know who are owned by people of the nation of Islam. As I stated above...they will not stop until they have dominated the world.

Oil companies....gas stations...we have American owned and non-Opec companies in my state. I frequent them.

it all sounds very KKKish to me

same tune, different instrument

Zionist conspiracy vs. Islam conspiracy. Please.

Englighten me please.
I have no idea what you are writing about.

Thanks

I am boycotting businesses who are of the nation of islam.
The nation of islam is a zealot fanatical branch of islam.
Arabs who are not a part of this fanatical group I don't have a problem with. I have worked with muslims who detest what this fanatical branch stands for as much as I do.

The nation of islam is like the KKK of the Christians.
The KKK claim to be Christian and they want to change America into a white nation and kill all others.

The nation of islam wants world domination and they want everyone to become Islamic or they will kill them. Look at a map and see how many countries are "Muslim." Their governments are based on the fanatical teachings even if their people are not so fanatical. And many of these countries hide this fervor very well and have gotten away with it. Saddam is the only one we've toppled because he was so obvious. We're still looking for Osama.

There are so many different sects of Muslims....like the Christians.

If you read the last portion of the Patriot Act, it talks about one of the sects...the Sikhs. In the PA, it says how the US wants to use them to find the terrorists. They are a peace loving people and blend in well.

Hope I cleared up my posts.

ok i understand

Michel,
It IS difficult to understand your broken English and I am sure I understand your vision of the Middle Easteners as martyrs very clearly.

WMD's? Let's just talk about weapons period.
So who IS supplying the terrorists with arms? Are they stealing our cache? Are they coming from Iran? Where did the Iranians get the weapons? Do they have weapons factories in Iran? A Smith & Wesson factory there perhaps? Come on...so where are they getting the weapons? AND who is paying for them?

Answer me this.

[QUOTE]Dekka00 said this in post #6 :

car is symbolic of terrorism/Middle East issue in general,

It can't be according to your analogy, since US driving the car means US using the terrorism issue. What happened in the past is a completely different story, everything has changed since then. The USA did attack many countries, did sponsor militants, and so on. As soon as these militants start attacking innocent americans and other people around the world, they are labeled terrorists. But it's not USA's fault that they are who they are today! Terrorism existed, exists and will exist if we dont act to stop it.

invading Iraq being taking a hammer out and hitting the car.

Invading Iraq is taking a gun out and shooting at somebody to let others know that US will not tolerate their actions. There are many reasons behind the invasions, and WMD and oil are not the important ones.

Yes, you are right, hammering the car obviously is not going to make it better.

I see people saying things like "hey well at least the United States is doing something."

I posted this metaphor to show that doing something is meaningless if you don't know what the hell you are doing. Just because you are doing something does not mean the situation is going to get better. In fact, as the metaphor shows, it can actually make things worse.

Now i see what you mean. Check this out: if powerfull western european countries like France and Germany joined US in Iraq effort, the outcome would be much better, achieved faster and with less blood. Attacking Iraq is not like doing something you dunno; yes, such a military and humanitarian mission is not easy to accomplish and it's hard to predict what's going to happen, but the goals are stated, means to achieve them are chosen, and action is taken. Since we started this whole mess, we have to finish it, and civilized countries like Canada, France and Germany and others have to help. Since they don't, it means either they dont wanna get involved - which means ignorance, which is obvious - or what's even worse, they are interested in the ongoing conflict. Free and pro-american Iraq would be 1 big hit on islamists and their terror networks, they understood it well and started 'intifadah' against americans in iraq and whoever is with them. They went against their own religion and kill muslims not to let it happen - rich, strong, peacefull arabic country in the heart of that region.

Why would they do it? American imperialism? Bolox, as my british friends would call it. Americans always paid for the oil they bought, and it was the americans - if i am not mistakes - who disagreed with western eu countries over colonization of oil-rich regions like Saudi Arabia. (US argued for giving them political and economical freedom, unlike UK and France who wanted to keep them under control.) I think, the reason behind islamist terrorism is money flow, from oil sheikhs who benefit from high prices; bastards like Yasser Arafat who already stole billions of dollars naive Eu Union gave him and spent millions on killing people; and other parties who care more about money than human lives.

And that's what the US is trying to demolish, this vicious circle of hatred, dirty money, death, retaliation, avengings, and so on.

Remember: "american imperialism" is a product of USSR's communist propaganda. If you wish to fall for it, it's your choice. But if you do, dont try discussing anything with me. People who believe in communist propaganda - or any parts of it - are stupid, IMO, and not worth debating with.

You are absolutely 100% right that a free, democratic, pro-US Iraq would be a HUGE step to "getting the car started."

We took out Saddam Hussein very quickly. I never doubted the strength of the US military. Our military is unparalleled.

Unfortunately this is more than a militaristic issue. Proving our military might does nothing.

A goal of a free, democratic Iraq, in fact the entire Middle East, we agree on.

Have we accomplished this in Iraq. Let's hope so.

Pro-US? Yeah right. We ****ed that up big time.

You said that we took out a gun and shot the people who are trying to kill us to show that we will not tolerate it? That's tyranny. Now I understand the need for self-defense. Afghanistan was that. No one dared tell us not to go there. We will defend ourselves. The Afghan people were liberated from the foreigners that had oppressed them. War is ugly but we had no other choice.

Iraq, however, is a completely different scenerio. It was Bush carrying out an agenda because the American people were already riled up for war. And now it's backfired on him. Half the people hate him, the world hates him, and the Middle East really hates him.

Yep, we hammered that car real good.

Now somebody call a tow truck.

MrJukoVette,
I am so tired of hearing communist propaganda in my own country the USA.
If I hear one more time about universal "healthcare" and social (in)security I tell you I will puke.

the United States is a democratic empire. to say otherwise is absolutely ridiculous

Dekka00 said this in post #25 :

Unfortunately this is more than a militaristic issue.

Yep. Humanitarian side of it is much bigger and more important.

Proving our military might does nothing.

Cant agree with you here. Military might doesnt help resolving Iraq's current problems, but what i meant is, the whole region is aware that USA's words are backed with tomahawks and aircraft carriers. I can bet there will be no more taliban movement or dictators like Saddam in the ME after USA's 2 recent invasions.

Have we accomplished this in Iraq. Let's hope so.

No, far from it, but much closer than a year ago.

Pro-US? Yeah right. We ****ed that up big time.

Any suggestions on how to correct this? To prevent this from happening in the future?

You said that we took out a gun and shot the people who are trying to kill us to show that we will not tolerate it? That's tyranny. Now I understand the need for self-defense. Afghanistan was that. No one dared tell us not to go there. We will defend ourselves. The Afghan people were liberated from the foreigners that had oppressed them. War is ugly but we had no other choice.

Iraq, however, is a completely different scenerio. It was Bush carrying out an agenda because the American people were already riled up for war. And now it's backfired on him. Half the people hate him, the world hates him, and the Middle East really hates him.

Yes it is a comletely different scenario. We didnt attack Iraq to kill couple of terrorists, or arrest WMDs, in the first place. Main reason was to gain an ally in this conflict, and change people's moods in that region.

Yep, we hammered that car real good.

Now somebody call a tow truck.

US called a tow-truck from the beginning. For some reason, tow-truck company refused to send a driver.

sowhatsthetruth said this in post #26 :

MrJukoVette,
I am so tired of hearing communist propaganda in my own country the USA.
If I hear one more time about universal "healthcare" and social (in)security I tell you I will puke.

Some other words and expressions widely used in Canadian propaganda that sound familiar from my years in USSR: 'community'; 'social democracy'; 'caring about each other'; etc.

Funny thing is, the more canadian government tries to make people care about each other and stuff like that, it becomes worse and worse. How do you want people to love each other if father sues his daughter, and mothers are no longer happy when they give birth a child? (liberals' achievement)

the United States is a democratic empire. to say otherwise is absolutely ridiculous

No, to say US is an empire, whether democratic or not, is ridiculous. It's a superpower, but not an empire. Those are 2 completely different terms.

how does a non-empire go from 13 to states to 50 in 200 years?

i don't give a **** who they were what i don't understand is why the US would not let them continue

Dekka00

If you listen to Pres. Bush, he doesn't care if there were no WMD's. He could not play the UN game because we don't have time to dilly dally. He would much rather take the war to the Middle East and fight them there than risk the destruction on our own soil.

Yes, a hornets nest was created...but that's exactly what was needed to be done. Islamic terrorists were not created in a vacuum...its been brewing for a LONG time. Best to draw the hornets in one place and swat them in one fell swoop, then to have to chase them all over the world. By chasing them all over the world, you risk harming the innocent citizens in those additional countries.

I respect our President for this stand.

yeah but we don't have time to screw up either.

Patience is a good thing.

Dekka,

This is how I think we should have done it. From another post:

Anyhoo I am wondering what you and Sordidmesh and any others feel about assasination squads as a means to rid the world of terrorists.

To me it makes alot of sense. Military involvement is just way too messy. And no offense to the troops, but they are made up largely of young, inexperienced, and relatively poorly trained people. Granted they are extremely strong and committed to the fight. And I am not speaking of the special forces groups either. Those guys kick major bootie.

Maybe our stronghold in Iraq could be a base for these operations.

Don't know if you have ever seen the TV show, La Femme Nikita.
Anyway, it was about a covert anti-terrorism group called section one. It was made up of people from all over the world...it had no alliances to any country or government. It gathered intel and implemented operations to stop terrorist plots
and kill the terrorists. Its sole purpose was to stop terrorism everywhere, not just for specific countries and their agendas

I am hoping there is something like this in existence today.

wouldn't bother me one bit if there were assassination squads, i'm just worried that they would get out of hand, get a little greedy

i'm not too optimistic on the general goodness of humankind.

Dekka,

I'm not too optimistic on the general goodness of mankind either.

The assassination "squads" are already a reality and have been for at least 41 years.

I'm actually being a tad sarcastic in post #38.

Just watch "The Bourne Identity" with Matt Damon.
And you MUST see the "The Bourne Supremacy" coming out this month
and also the remake of "The Manchurian Candidate" with Denzel Washington.

We are being bombarded with propaganda glorifying these assasins.

Who am I kidding?

The CIA is implicated in the 1961 assassination of Patrice Lumumba, the Congo's first democratically elected president. The CIA-backed Mobuto Sese Seko was installed as dictator of Zaire.

LOL I remember how people in Russia felt that it's really stupid to try to establish communism in Congo amd how jokes were spread about our "african friend". Patrice Lumumba, KGB man, came to power only thanks to communist network the USSR deployed in that African country.

Fortunately, USSR lost there as well.

H@ts,

What I was describing here was :
Don't know if you have ever seen the TV show, La Femme Nikita.
Anyway, it was about a covert anti-terrorism group called section one. It was made up of people from all over the world...it had no alliances to any country or government. It gathered intel and implemented operations to stop terrorist plots
and kill the terrorists. Its sole purpose was to stop terrorism everywhere, not just for specific countries and their agendas

As you can see, I described something that had no political or government agendas, including world government. It would be solely for the purpose of stopping terrorism. Including that purpetrated by the CIA.

You said:
The US has a history of backing and training militias, gorrilas, terrorists, and death squads. South American death squads used rape, torture and the mass murder of innocent civilians to get rid of governments and ideas that they and the US didn't care for. If you sell your sole to the devil for whatever reason don't be surprised when he comes back and demands it. "

I wholeheartedly agree with you here. This is one thing I am not proud of our country. If you try to go against it in this country, they will just try to kill you or call you insane and shut you up. But, in post 40 you will see that I was using sarcasm in #38. I just brought it up to see how others felt about the subject.

H@ts,

Come to think of it...your MI6 hasnt really been squeaky clean either.
Sometimes they work hand in hand with the CIA in their dirty deeds.
Judge not lest ye be judged.

BTW, saw the British House of Commons the other day in their pre war intelligence discussion. It was the first time I saw them in a serious discussion.
Like I said before, most times its a bantering of wits and brouhaha.

I would love to see the CIA completely dismantled. Somehow I doubt I'll ever see it. Anyone who tried would probably be assassinated.