Palestinians "Routinely" Celebrated 9/11

Israel & Palestine Forum

In keeping with TWBR's clippings from propaganda websites, I thought I'd share with you all these photographs of Palestinians celebrating 9/11.

Oh, and the only conclusion to be drawn is that Palestinians "routinely" celebrated 9/11.

http://www.yesha.org.il/islam.htm

- woolfe

Apparently, Palestinian women "routinely" murder their daughters to restore family honor:

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwas...rld/7255549.htm

- woolfe

Sadly, it also appears that the Palestinians "routinely" kill Israeli soldiers when the soldiers are giving food to elderly Palestinian women:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...p=1078027574121

News of what Palestinians "routinely" do becomes more and more grim all the time. Apparently, Palestinian women are now repeatedly luring teenage Israeli boys over the internet, then shooting them when they show up to meet them:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003...s&oneclick=true

Link requires registration. Article below:

"A Palestinian woman who lured an Israeli teenager to his death through internet flirtation was yesterday jailed for life by an Israeli military court.

A transcript of the three-judge panel's ruling said freelance journalist Amne Muna exploited 16-year-old Ophir Rakhum's "yearning for love" to forge an emotional bond with him through their internet chats, which she used to tempt him to a meeting in Jerusalem.

According to the charge sheet Muna - who was aged 24 at the time of the killing in January 2001 - picked up Rakhum in a car in Jerusalem and drove him the short distance into the West Bank, where two accomplices were waiting.

They ordered Rakhum out of the car, and when he refused, they shot him dead, the indictment said.

At the start of her trial, in March 2001, Muna declared herself proud of what she did.

She said she carried out her actions "for the sake of the Palestinian people" and to avenge the deaths of Palestinian youths killed in clashes with Israeli soldiers.

She was convicted last month.

AP"

Those pictures could have been Palestinians celebrating something else, so it really doesnt work out well.

and

Who cares about dancing Palestinians? Where they dancing in NYC filming the events and getting arrested for it?"

Yes, they "could" have been celebrating anything. IDF soldiers who have killed Palestinian civilians "could" have killed them by accident, or the civilians "could" have actually been killed by Palestinians in a firefight.

Who cares what "could" have been. If it's posted on the Web, it MUST be true, right?

Its the same report in all links, just copied it and paste it.

I just finished reading down to the end of that article. It's sickening. The woman will only get 3-5 years in prison because protecting the family honor is considered a mitigating factor?

And the whole community shunned the family after it was discovered the daughter was pregnant, which caused the mother to snap?

Ugh.

I shouldn't be posting about this so flipply. It isn't funny.

- woolfe

Here's another one on the same subject - honor killings.

Relevant clip:

"Every year, dozens and probably hundreds of brutal "honor killings" of Palestinian women and girls – most of whom are virtually blameless – go unreported, according to an anthropologist's recent study.

In a story for World and I magazine, James Emery says women in the communities of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Israel and Jordan are killed by male kinsmen in an attempt to protect the reputations of their families.

Emery says the women "are murdered in their homes, in open fields and occasionally in public, sometimes before crowds of cheering onlookers."

Most occur among Muslims in poor, rural tribal areas or among uneducated urban dwellers, he says, although the practice is not explicitly condoned by the Islamic holy book, the Quran.

In the feudal, patriarchal societies of the Middle East, writes Emery, "honor is based on what men feel is important, and reputation is everything."

"Unfortunately," he says, "thousands of women have been killed in the name of honor because imagination and rumors are as important as actions and events."

When a girl's chastity is in question, he says, her family feels the shame, even if she is raped or the rumors prove unsubstantiated.

"A woman shamed is like rotting flesh," a Palestinian merchant told Emery. "If it is not cut away, it will consume the body. What I mean is the whole family will be tainted if she is not killed."

Emery says the reasons for honor killings include allegations of premarital or extramarital sex, for refusing an arranged marriage or attempting to obtain a divorce, or simply for talking with a man. The murders normally are carried out by fathers, husbands, brothers, uncles, cousins or sons.

Among Palestinians, all sexual encounters, including rape and incest, are blamed on the woman.

"The issue of consent is irrelevant when it comes to honor killings," says Marsha Freeman, director of the International Women's Rights Action Watch. "It has to do with the woman being defiled. It completely objectifies the woman as being about her sexuality and purity. It makes her not human."

Under the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, at least 25 "official" honor killings occur each year, says Emery, but the actual number of deaths is much higher.

Because honor killings are accorded special status, murderers serve little or no jail time, the anthropologist notes. Some men convicted of premeditated murder serve as little as three months and are treated as celebrities by family and friends upon release.

Emery has done extensive research in Palestinian communities and has lived and traveled overseas for a number of years. He is an expert witness on Asian and Arab culture in civil and criminal cases and a lecturer on Middle Eastern terrorism.

He says the murder of females in the Middle East is an ancient tradition that began prior to the arrival of Islam in A.D. 622. Arabs sometimes buried infant daughters to avoid the possibility they would later bring shame to the family, Emery notes.

In the case of Rofayda Qaoud, the mother will appear before a three-judge panel on Dec. 3. She says her husband, Abdul Rahim, urged her not to do it, and said the Quran forbids "honor" killings. The Knight Ridder account says Rofayda gave birth to a healthy boy last Dec. 23, who has been adopted by another Palestinian family.

Honor killings committed in the heat of passion generally carry a light term – six months to one year in jail. Qaoud's premeditated act is likely be earn her a stiffer sentence – perhaps three to five years, said the report. Yet the fact that she was attempting to save her family's honor means she's not guilty of premeditated murder, which can get the death penalty. The two brothers are serving minimum 10-year jail sentences for raping their sister. "

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/a...RTICLE_ID=35663

- woolfe

I spoke with a Muslim about this and she said that still does happen, no doubt.
But, it is a pre-islamic middle eastern tradition of family honor.
This is NOT supported by Islam, and is horrible.

Please do not associate 'honor' killings with Islam.

Holy Qu'ran 5:32 "...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people..."

Logan.

That's well and good Longanc, that Islam does not offficially endorse honor killings. Because the issue here is not religion per se, it is Arab culture. And it's a culture that views women as chattel whose lives are not of equivalent value to those of men. That is the real core of the problem, not the honor killings. Those killing are just one extreme manifestation of a far deeper problem.

As to whether any of this is bound up with Islam or whether it all dates back to Arab culture before Islam, frankly, to coin a phrase, "I don't give a crap." It is what it is.

- woolfe

TWBR still doesn't get why you posted this stuff.

I found these quotes from something called the "Hadith." I am unfamiliar with Islamic scripture. If anyone can clarify what the Hadith is, I'd appreciate it.

"Mohammed asked some women, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?" The women said, "yes," He said, "This is because of the deficiency of the woman's mind. " Vol. 3:826


Mohammed to women: "I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you." Vol. 2:541"

Mohammed said, "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers are women. "

Mohammed said, " Bad omen is in the woman, the house and the horse."

Mohammed said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."

sounds like Mo had some lady troubles

sounds like my dad

I try and stick to using the Qu'ran since I find similar troubling things in the hadiths. I do agree that this is a problem and needs to be address. The hadith is not the word of god but rather Mohammed and his life, which by Islamic terms, Mohammed was not God, he was not perfect. Let us stick to the Qu'ran.

Also, the bible puts man 'above' women so the Qu'ran would not be the first.


In India children are killed if they are of the wrong sex; In China, the same; In Brazil children are not helped in life if they are thought to have a bad omen attached to them; Worldwide children die daily from treatable diseases; In the Middle east 'honor' killings is practiced.

These are all horrible things. All Things that need to change.

It is all mis/un-education that is the root of these problems.
Let us all do our part to help those we can.

www.yourhelp.4t.com

Also, just a quick note, honor killings did occur elsewhere, this practise ... i think ... is mostly attached to small trible/village groups who have to live by thier name in order to live or thier family will be disowned and left out of the trading community ... in a sense let out to die. This was a way to stop that.

Now I am definity not saying that this is okay, just as you are, looking from some answers to a terrible thing.

Logan.

are you sure? you see what he's getting at right?

Yes i do, and what he used is pretty retarted.

yes it's retarded. that's the point. He's just doing the same thing that you do.

I made like one thread about it and its very true.

it's the "routinely" part man. It's ridiculous.

So even with the tons of reports of it happening, the word routinely doesnt fit it well?

there can be tons of reports, but if it only happened once or twice, that's not "routine"

how about this:

Palestinian men routinely rape Palestinian women.

You aren't gonna deny that are you? It happens at least once a day. Obviously, that's the common practice.

If its true, then yes, you can say that it routinely happens.

With what was said to me by wolffe, I agree.
There is a problem, this type of thing should not occur.
The problem is not tradition, I did not say 'well its just a tradition its okay'
I said it had roots in an old tradition that is wrong and should end.

Devildogg, is there any mention of honor killings in the Qu'ran?

Logan.

Logan your making a mistake by asking Devil.

Whose Honor? Muslim Women and Crimes of Honor

"Honor" Killings: Condemnations Are Not Enough

Heres what Muslims have to say, and they provide verses from the Quran to support their claims.

I don't read TW's links but I would guess that there isn't any Quranic passages in the article as he says. I could be wrong
It is viewed by you as a mistake for someone to ask me TW because I will tell the truth. And the truth is Islam's worst enemy. Should he listen to a 20 yr old who isn't even familiar with the Hadiths? My immediate answer is no, logan, but I will look into it.

His articles are actually interesting reads. There are some quotes in their from the Qu'ran and Hadith. Interestingly, both authors take the attitude that honor killings are not permitted in Islam, but neither author sweeps the problem under the rug. Both claim that the problem is massive and afflicts the Islamic world far more so than anything else. The explanation they proffer, which I think is plausible, is that Islamic cultures are based on the primitive notion of shame - that people kill family members to absolve themselves of shame.

A shamed based system of morality is one entirely based on community approval for one's conduct. If the community does not approve, the person feels shame. However, there is generally no sense of "guilt" (as we have in the west) for conduct that is not seen or perceived by others. That's the difference between a system based on shame and one based on conscience. The western, Judeo-Christian world used to be based on shame. The development of a conscience based morality system was probably the result of the influence of Protestantism and Judaism in the west.

The problem in Islamic cultures, and certain other cultures in less developed areas of the world, is not just with basing morality on community approval (i.e. shame). In theory, the shame could be directed at the boys who raped the girl, instead of the girl herself and her family. There then would be no honor killing. The problem is in a culture that doesn't respect women, for whatever reasons, whether it is religious or cultural, or some of both.

One of the authors is a westerner, and the other a moderate Arab. Both loudly condemn the activities. Unfortunately, their attitudes don't seem common in the Arab world.

- woolfe

The family that has the boy that raped the girl should have to kill the boy to restore THEIR honor...

if you ask me

The attackers should die not the victims.

The issue was raised earlier that my quotes regarding the role of women in Islam were from the Hadiths, not the Qu'Ran. However, I just found several quotes from the Qu'Ran that pertain to this issue. There appear to be several different translations of the same passage:

"Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Rodwell's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)


"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other , and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them . Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme." (Dawood's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other , and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great." (Pickthall's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them . If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great." (Arberry's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them ; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. (Shakir's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)


"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other , and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them ; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

Yes it is disapointing.
I do agree there is a sense of male superiority in many religions.

He that holds the pen holds the power

Men wrote the books, is this justification? No.

Are men superior? No.

Do I think religions are wrong with this issue? Yes.

It's fair to say that many religions are patriarchal and misogynistic, but does the Bible state that men are "superior" to women and that disobedient women should be "beaten" by their husbands? I honestly don't know, since I don't read the Bible often.

I do know of at least one other religion that has similar attitudes towards women, and that is the Mormon religion.

In any event, regardless of what the books say, the status of women in Islamic societies is deplorable compared to the west.

- woolfe