4 Palestinians shot dead in seperate Incidents

Israel & Palestine Forum

IDF kills two Palestinians in territories

By Arnon Regular, Haaretz Correspondent and Haaretz Service

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/FA67FDE4-D0F3-4C96-99F0-AA5804D0BE8F/39485/5F9B57F2F67F4010AD83D8DF73F0BC26.jpg
Israeli soldiers shot at a group of rock throwers

Israel Defense Forces troops shot dead a Palestinian youth at the Farun village south of the West Bank city of Tul Karm on Monday during a protest in the area.

He was identified as Omar Farah, aged 19.

In the Gaza Strip, IDF troops shot dead a 17-year-old Mohammed Nabahan in Khan Yunis, close to the Neveh Dekalim settlement late Sunday night.

According to the IDF, troops in the area saw a "suspicious looking" figure at the Khan Yunis cemetery, and opened fire at him.

But, witnesses said Troops had opened fire on a group of Palestinian protesters who had been seen approaching a neighbouring Jewish settlement.

Paraplegic killed

Earlier Sunday, troops shot dead a wheelchair-bound Palestinian at the Qalandiyah checkpoint, north of Jerusalem.

Military sources said that the troops tried to disperse a violent protest in the area, which was disrupting repair work at the Atarot airport. According to the sources, the troops fired warning shots, which hit the wheelchair-bound Palestinian.

The Binyamin brigade was investigating the incident.

But medics said that Arafat Yaqub was shot in the head when troops opened fire on stone-throwing demonstrators near a checkpoint at Qalandiya refugee camp, north of Jerusalem.

Also, today, IDF troops killed 24-year-old mentally retarded man in West Bank, east of Tul Karm

Any other sources on this event? If this is true, then Israel have taken a new all-time low. Killing mentally retarded men? Killing two teenagers? I would like to know more details...although from this post, it certainly looks bad for Israel. If this is true, then Israel are once again in disgrace.

Links :

Haaretz - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...sID=0&listSrc=Y

Al'Jazeera - http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exe...A5804D0BE8F.htm

Washington Post - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...3-2004Jun7.html ( More information on Arafat Yaqub )

They open fire on youths throwing rocks, how is that not terrorism?

From what I've read from your sources, Israel have definitely committed an act of terror, I condemn it no ends, surely none of the Zionists on this forum can defend these murderous acts?

Well I guess I have to interject some subjectivity here since it’s terribly lacking at this point.

First, it is a fact, not only in this area but over the world that clashes of this sort result in the deaths of some unfortunately innocent people. I do not believe the IDF intentionally shot the man in the wheelchair.

As for the rock throwers, why put yourselves in that position? Are you saying that rocks cannot kill? Sure they’re no match for military weaponry however they are still engaging in dangerous behavior that can result in severe injury or death. Do you not see the size of those rocks?

See, this is my problem with your posting and many like it that litters these forums. We have Palestinians throwing rocks at Israeli troops and when one of them ends up getting injured or killed, you want to call it terrorism? It’s not like they are on their way to the market and suddenly a soldier guns them down. I guarantee if someone was throwing rocks at you and you had a gun, sooner or later you’d wind up shooting.

You pick at a bully as you describe them, then when you get you’re a$$ kicked you call it injustice? These are the facts plain and simple. If the rock throwing never had occurred, then the killings would not have occurred. Your inability to see any type of balance here doesn’t make you right or wrong for that matter…. just blind.

Don't mention it devildog

Good points from both oneofpeace and TWBR. Oneofpeace made a good argument, at the end of day what do Palestinians expect if they start on the "bully?" And then they complain when the bully hits back.

However, I think TWBR made a very good comeback. I think what he was basically trying to say, in his own little way, is that rocks versus tanks aint very fair. It is like me pushing somebody, and then that person putting me in a coma for it. Why did I push that person? Because he had trapped me in my own house (or what used to be). I know this little scenario isn't really a fair representative of the conflict, but it illustrates my point. As TWBR rightly said, the IDF soldiers shouldn't be there. According to the UN, and international law, their occupation is illegal. They are occupying the West Bank and Gaza Strip illegally. The Palestinians have rocks and suicide bombs. They have tried peaceful rallies; doesn't seem to work, and the IDF have actually shot at them before. When they commit themselves to a suicide bomb, it is simply counter-productive and an act of terror. I would think throwing rocks was logical; it is a physical and meaningful act of resistance, and let's face it; they're not exactly gonna kill the Israeli soldiers doing it.

Israel need to change their policies. Golda Meir said, "I can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. What I can't forgive is them making us kill theirs" (or something along that lines).

This begs the question: If the current Israeli policies are forcing them to kill children; isn't it about time they have a serious rethink of them?

It's difficult to say what's happening with these incidents without being there on the ground. Both sides will put their spin on it. There have been many cases where there were gunmen around when people were throwing rocks, and other incidents where there may not have been but the IDF thought there was. When you're in a situation where rock throwing can at any time turn into shooting, the tension is heightened to the point where people sometimes die when they shouldn't. That said, I do agree that at times Israel's responses are disproportionate.

While I have no doubt that the IDF is making its best efforts in the vast majority of cases to avoid unncessary killing, the following argument does make some sense:

"Israel need to change their policies. Golda Meir said, "I can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. What I can't forgive is them making us kill theirs" (or something along that lines).

This begs the question: If the current Israeli policies are forcing them to kill children; isn't it about time they have a serious rethink of them?"

Viewed in isolation, the logic of this argument is hard to deny. But the problem comes when you examine Israel's options. There seem to be essentially three, with all else being variations of these:

1. Continue doing what they are doing.

2. Stop doing what they are doing but do nothing else.

3. Give the Palestinians the pre-1967 borders (or something very close) AND stop doing what they are doing.

The anti-Israel side of the debate will favor option 3. But is Israel guarenteed that the terror attacks will stop if they make these concessions? Given that Hamas does not support a two-state solution and opposes the peace process, what guarentees does Israel have? The worst thing that can happen to Israel is that they give the Palestinians what they want and the terrorism continues unabated, or subsides for a short time then picks up again with a vegeance at some point in the future. The terrorists will always find some kind of pretext if they are determined to continue.

So what I am saying is, that in order for Israel to rethink its "policies" that are putting it in the position of killing non-combatants, what do the Palestinians need to ALSO do to assure Israeli security? Any suggestions from the anti-Israel side?

- woolfe

[QUOTE]The anti-Israel side of the debate will favor option 3. But is Israel guarenteed that the terror attacks will stop if they make these concessions? Given that Hamas does not support a two-state solution and opposes the peace process, what guarentees does Israel have? The worst thing that can happen to Israel is that they give the Palestinians what they want and the terrorism continues unabated, or subsides for a short time then picks up again with a vegeance at some point in the future. The terrorists will always find some kind of

Well I don't agree with them demolishing the wall or any interdiction zone that protects Israeli borders. You can't say that Israel should not root out terrorists activiely, and also must reduce its border security.

I think the big problem with the wall building is that it isn't just one wall. There is a wall to protect Israeli borders and then their are walls and other kinds of security to protect the settlements. Both are causing the Palestinians some problems, but I think the Palestinians have to learn to live with whatever measures Israel wants to take to secure its own borders. Removing most of the settlements will in the long run solve the other part of the problem.

I do agree that Israel has to learn to restrain itself so that a single terrorist cannot veto the peace process. But I cannot favor Israeli restraint when the attacks are as frequent as they are now. The PA needs to make a massive commitment to rooting out the terrorists within its own boundaries. Not just a few piecemeal arrests for PR purposes, but actual on the ground intelligence and police work. With the assistance of Israel if necessary.

And another thing must happen before the Palestinians will get a viable state - we must have a Labour government in Israel. Because no Likud government will ever offer the Palestinians anything close to even what Barak offered at Taba.

- woolfe

Woolfe, you may have missed it because TWBR's post started a new thread, but I responded to your point so can you please respond back? Thanks.

First off AZ, I'd appreciate you attributing your posts to the sources from which they come instead of passing them off as your own:

http://www.arabmediawatch.com/modul...article&sid=429

Now I will respond to the points made by the author you have quoted.

The basic assumption behind the Israeli claim that Arafat and the PA "must do more" to stop attacks on Israel is that the primary role of the Palestinian Authority is not to work for the security and well-being of the Palestinian people, but rather to guarantee the security and safety of Israeli occupation forces, settlers and civilians

Your author misses the point. Putting down the terrorists IS protecting Palestinian security, not just Israeli security. You yourself made the point that Israel's policies of responding to Palestinian terrorism are resulting in the deaths of Palestinian non-combatants. They are also causing problems in other areas, e.g. house destruction, wall building. The Intafada has deciminated the Palestinian economy and it is a roadblock to any deal that would create Palestinian sovreighnty. So looking at this as asking the Palestinians to help Israel is a short-sighted and rather jaundiced view. Putting down the terrorism is in the best interests of both parties involved.

The Palestinian Authority is not a sovereign state, but a quasi-authority which at the height of its power was only given control over 17.2% of the Israeli occupied West Bank (so called "Area A" under the Oslo and subsequent accords). Even Israel with all its military and economic might could not guarantee its own safety when it controlled every inch of the West Bank. Over the past 18 months, Israel has systematically attacked all the facilities of the Palestinian Authority, including police stations, prisons and intelligence headquarters, and killed and assassinated many Palestinian security officers. Hence while crippling and killing the Palestinian security forces, Israel makes the ludicrous demand that these same forces go out and work on Israel's behalf.

Israel's actions against a few PA officials were BECAUSE those officials were supporting the terrorists. Oops. Israel has supplied intelligence information to the PA to help stop the terrorists. In one case, Israel supplied a list of known terrorists to the PA. When Israel infiltrated certain PA establishments in its offensive around February of 2003 (when Arafat was isolated in his compound), they discovered that the list was supplied to the Al-Aqusa Martyr Bridages (part of Arafat's Fatah movement) to help the Brigades identify individuals to assist them in their terrorism operations.

What is needed is a REAL commitment from the PA to stop the terrorists. They will need assistance from Israel in the form of intelligence and training to do it. Where it is true that Israel has not been able to stop the terrorists completely, the PA, though militarily weak, does have advantages in this regard. They have intelligence and connections on the ground that Israel does not have. The point is that this has to be a joint effort, with Israel interdicting its borders and the PA, with Israeli assistance, rooting out the terrorists in its own land. If the efforts are not completely successful, at least the PA would have acted in good faith and the peace progress can proceed.

"Israel has further undermined its own claim that Arafat is "in control" of all the violence, by continuing to demand that he act while he is a prisoner of the Israelis in two rooms of his Ramallah headquarters, with no outside contact, no electricity and barely enough food and water. "

This again ignores the reason Arafat was isolated to begin with. In any event, he is no longer isolated, and in theory at least others are supposed to be controlling the PA now. It's a bit of a Catch-22 to blame the terrorism on Israel's efforts to stop it. If the terrorism had not started, none

The suicide bombings which have followed the brutal Israeli re-invasions of almost every major West Bank town since late March 2002 prove conclusively that there is no level of violence or ruthlessness that either Israel or the Palestinian Authority can employ that will eliminate those determined to answer the suffering of millions of Palestinian civilians under decades of Israeli military occupation by inflicting suffering on Israeli civilians.

What is needed here is a cooperative effort, not total success. Israel needs to know that the PA is a partner in the struggle to combat terrorism before concessions will be made.

"The only way to end suicide bombings and other kinds of Palestinian violence is to end the extreme violence of the Israeli military occupation which produces and fuels both Palestinian resistance against the occupation forces and violent attacks against Israeli civilians. Absent a political process explicitly designed to end the occupation, there is little reason to believe that such attacks can or will end ."

Considering the fact that the terrorists either oppose the peace process totally or view it as an interim means of taking a portion of Palestine without giving up their end aim of destroying Israel, I have grave doubts that any peace process will be a long term solution without the cooperation of the PA.

Religious terrorists who are on a God-given mission to destroy a country that they view as a satanic abomination will not be persusaded to stop what they are doing. As Hamas has stated repeatedly, this is not a war for the liberation of the Palestinian people. It is a war to liberate all "Islamic lands" from the presence of non-believers.

- woolfe

Hamas to attend Cairo talks

Wednesday 09 June 2004, 21:38 Makka Time, 18:38 GMT

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/0B6E5B4F-1756-47E1-85D9-5417A1A12446/39741/7B1A276F8B604EE5AE4C714E99CCBDEA.jpg
Hamas and other groups are to discuss Israeli plans for Gaza

Hamas and other Palestinian groups plan to meet Egyptian officials to discuss Egypt's proposals to help stabilise Gaza after any Israeli withdrawal, says Hamas' top official in Lebanon.

News that Palestinian resistance groups will gather in Cairo comes as a member of Hamas was killed in clashes with Israeli forces in Gaza on Wednbesday.

"Hamas and other Palestinian groups will meet with the Egyptians in Cairo, though the date has still to be fixed," Osama Hamdan told Reuters in Beirut on Wednesday.

Egypt has offered to help promote order in Gaza after a pullout, which the Israeli cabinet approved in principle on Sunday based on a plan put forward by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

Hamdan said Palestinians did not want anyone to interfere in the way they planned to run Gaza after a pullout.

Palestinian President Yasser Arafat said on Tuesday he had accepted the Egyptian proposals to help in Gaza, including reforms to Palestinian security forces. But the extent of reforms agreeable to him was not known.

Israeli opponents of Sharon's pullout plan fear Hamas would take over Gaza in the event of a withdrawal and use it for attacks on the Jewish state.

Ceasefire possible

Hamas has said it could suspend attacks from Gaza if Israel quit the whole of the strip, but Hamdan stressed any withdrawal must be unconditional.

"If Sharon wants to pull out of Gaza, let him pull out unconditionally," he said. "But if he wants us to pay a political price, we are not prepared to do so. If that is the case, let the resistance continue, and eventually he will be forced to pull out."

And after you negotiate with Hamas, which one of the 40 other orgs there Israel has to negotiate with to bring peace?

Hamas is in no position to make demands on Israel. They need to find a way to keep their leaders safe since they're having a hard time doing that. Maybe you can go over there and join the outfit. I'm sure you'd be a welcomed sight. Maybe they can even give you a new vest to wear. Only problem is that you can only wear it one time.

Israel should only negotaite with the main orgs like Hamas and Al'Aqasa Martyrs.

What about Islamic Jihad, Force 17 and Fatah. Since Arafat is the founder, I figured Fatah was a "main org".

So Israel has to negotiate with 20 different authorities? You don't see any absurdity in that logistic TWBR?

Let the PA clean up their own mess. You cannot negotiate any peace agreements with 20 heads to a body. It has not nor will not work. It's just more of the lunacy demands from the idiots that keep your people bogged down in ghettos among dust bunnies and flies.

With the mentality such as you subscribe to, I don't see anything getting better for your people anytime soon.

It doesnt have to, it has to negotaite with the main ones, and the PA has to help.

But since the PA is corrupted, then its very hard.

I don't see anything getting better for your people anytime soon.

Has there ever been anything better for my people?

Heres how Israel responds to Al-Aqsa Martyrs chief, Zacharia Zubeidi, promise that he would halt terror attacks if IDF forces withdrew from the violence-torn West Bank city and settlements in the area, Israel just killed killing the local leader of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Khalil Marshud, and another member of the group.

Israel sure does work for Peace......

Do you have a source on that assassination? I ran the name and it comes up with nothing on google. Perhaps you misspelled.

I just made a thread about it.

And you call me brainless? What happened with the last peace agreement or were you too wet behind the ears to remember? Not only did Israel have to bargain with the P.A. but Hamas and about 3 others and their off shoot orgs whom did not want to accept the bargaining process as it went forth.

I think before you post your unqualified opinion you should do some more research. As it stands now, I don't think you're doing any. Just accepting the words of some biased individuals in one of your other forums.

Was the peace agreement fair? Could you provide me links about it?