Because 'toking'=drug. There is not such thing 'casual toking', either you dont do it at all or you become addicted. First you do it once in a month, then on the weekends, then everyday... Then you move on to heavier drugs.... There is much higher chance you are going to become a drug addict than an alcoholic.
What the hell are you talking about? Alcohol is waaaaaaaaaaaay more addictive than weed. Some people do what you describe, some people keep it once a month. Marijuana is not a "gateway drug," alcohol is. Almost everybody drinks before they smoke. Some people never smoke weed, some people stop at weed. And yes, some people move on to heavier drugs. But it all started with alcohol, not weed.
Yes, but there aren't too many alcoholics - not as many as drug addicts, who lose their jobs and destroy their lives. People get addicted to drugs much faster than to alcohol, marijuana destroys their brains.
If you seriously believe that, I'll bring up some statistics. There are far, far more alcoholics that drug addicts. But actually an alcoholic is a drug addict, their drug just happens to be legal.
Now imagine yourself a nation of 30 million where like 15 million smoke the ****. See what i am getting at?...
I seriously doubt that many people would smoke. Maybe a small percentage of people who don't smoke would start if it became legal, but for the most part it would be the same number of people smoking, they'd just be doing it legally.
I have very strong suspicion that those in the parliament who want to legalise marijuana were paid by the organised crime, so that they could make more money without risking their lives to the justice.
probably true. And that's what made alcohol prohibition fail.
if you want to argue that drugs are bad, okay. But if you want to argue that alcohol is not a drug, that's stupid and hypocritical. It destroys the brain just as bad, if not worse than marijuana.
And about kids doing drugs: I don't know how big of a problem this actually is, but believe it or not, legalizing weed would make it harder for kids to get drugs.
When I was 15, it was damn near impossible for me to get alcohol, or even cigarettes. You had to get your friend's sister's friend's friend who knew someone who was 21 to get it for you.
All I had to do to get weed was ask somebody at school. Legalize it, and it becomes regulated. It'll be just as hard to get a hold of as alcohol. This isn't speculation, this is speaking from experience.
What the hell are you talking about? Alcohol is waaaaaaaaaaaay more addictive than weed.
First of all, it depends on each person's life conditions, like family, work, social aspects, etc. Second, alcohol is a widely accepted product, be it French wines or German beers or Russian vodka (ill go into this a little later). Third, weed is more addictive because of the mental damage it does to those who use it, like lazyness, inability to study and work as effectively as before, and in the long term, schizofrenia and other mental illnesses. I spoke with hospital nurses and paramedics, who told me what weed really is and how it kills people - maybe no physically but mentally.
Yes alcohol is very addictive, especially if consumed when having personal problems and at a background of unhappy family/social/professional life. But, prohibiting alcohol has led to massive death of alcoholics who started drinking inappropriate and low-quality alcohol containing substances like deodorants (USSR) and underground-made whiskey (USA). People drank, drink and will drink, no matter what.
Some people do what you describe, some people keep it once a month.
Yes. So it's ok for some percentage of marijuana users to become finished cocaine (or other heavy drug) addicts? Is it ok for those who stay with weed to become stupid?
Marijuana is not a "gateway drug," alcohol is.
Yes it is a gateway drug, i personally knew guys - sportsmen, carrying healthy lifestyle, etc. - and girls to go down the ladder in a matter of few months. Imagine yourself meeting a friend after 6 months and finding out that he regularly uses cocaine. I felt sorry for him, he used to be a water polo player - and was achieving good results. This is just one person i personally know who started with WEED and ended in a hole.
Almost everybody drinks before they smoke.
Wrong. Since it's harder to get drinks than weed, most kids - sometimes at the age of 14-15 - smoked marijuana before starting tobacco or alcohol.
Some people never smoke weed, some people stop at weed. And yes, some people move on to heavier drugs. But it all started with alcohol, not weed.
Alcohol is a completely different kind of 'drug', it's not a drug like marijuana or anything else. Alcohol makes one feel brave and superior, sharpens sex drive, and so on. Marijuana takes you to a different world with it's own thoughts and it's own enjoyment, while alcohol makes you closer with people around you. Lets put it this way: addiction to alcohol has nothing to do with addiction to drugs like marijuana.
If you seriously believe that, I'll bring up some statistics. There are far, far more alcoholics that drug addicts. But actually an alcoholic is a drug addict, their drug just happens to be legal.
I am talking about Canada - probably the picture is different in the States and varies across different parts of it. Alcoholism is a problem number one in Russia, and the only solution - as i see it - is to improve people's quality of life.
I seriously doubt that many people would smoke. Maybe a small percentage of people who don't smoke would start if it became legal, but for the most part it would be the same number of people smoking, they'd just be doing it legally.
Maybe not 15 million, but at least 40% SMOKE MARIJUANA ALREADY. Teachers, policemen, doctors (!), scientists - mature, responsible family people smoke drugs. Unebelievable? Better believe it, i've seen it with my eyes. Sometimes i had no idea and would never think that these people smoke drugs, until i get into their crew.
probably true. And that's what made alcohol prohibition fail.
Mafia gained their first millions selling alcohol to ordinary people who want to drink. These millions were used to bribe government officers to get their cover, and then when the executives in the White House understood that prohibition brought more harm than benefit they lifted the law. But it was too late, organised crime had the money and power to move on drugs, prostitution, etc. Did you read about Chicago and NYC of 20s-40s? Very interesting reading, i can advise you a few books if you want.
if you want to argue that drugs are bad, okay. But if you want to argue that alcohol is not a drug, that's stupid and hypocritical.
Alcohol is a drug, but it's a different type of it. And casual drinking causes NO addiction - unlike marijuana.
It destroys the brain just as bad, if not worse than marijuana.
True.
And about kids doing drugs: I don't know how big of a problem this actually is, but believe it or not, legalizing weed would make it harder for kids to get drugs.
The problem is big, and it's good if it's considered to be a problem at all. You look at this from a different perspective, i think we shouldn't legalise weed to make it harder for kids to get it, but we should enforce anti-drug laws much harder to prevent anybody from getting it.
When I was 15, it was damn near impossible for me to get alcohol, or even cigarettes. You had to get your friend's sister's friend's friend who knew someone who was 21 to get it for you.
All I had to do to get weed was ask somebody at school. Legalize it, and it becomes regulated. It'll be just as hard to get a hold of as alcohol. This isn't speculation, this is speaking from experience.
It should be impossible to get for everybody, not just kids.
Alcohol is a completely different kind of 'drug', it's not a drug like marijuana or anything else. Alcohol makes one feel brave and superior, sharpens sex drive, and so on. Marijuana takes you to a different world with it's own thoughts and it's own enjoyment, while alcohol makes you closer with people around you. Lets put it this way: addiction to alcohol has nothing to do with addiction to drugs like marijuana.
PCP makes you feel brave and superior as well. Feeling brave and superior from a substance, imho, is not a good thing.
Oh and a word of advice: alcohol does not sharpen your sex drive, it just makes you feel like your sex drive is sharpened go hang around people who are drinking, but don't drink. Just observe. It's really quite sad (but funny), and you'll see that alcohol is just another drug.
Marijuana kind of does take you to another world yeah. It's more intellectual than marijuana. You think of stuff you normally wouldn't think of. It gives you brand new perspectives and lets you know that there are many different ways of thinking.
But in the end, let's not kid ourselves. Booze and reefer are ultimately wastes of time and money. You drink to let loose and have a good time, you smoke to relax and veg out. Some people prefer alcohol, some people prefer weed. All drugs are different kinds of drugs. Opium is different than weed is different that alcohol is different than cocaine is different than... whatever.
Alcohol is a drug. There is no way around that. It produces artificial feelings. It destroys brains cells. Alcohol users are also less-productive than pepole who don't use it. If you use it, you are a drug-user. If you think you are any better than users of other drugs, you are lying to yourself and you are a hypocrite.
PCP makes you feel brave and superior as well. Feeling brave and superior from a substance, imho, is not a good thing.
What is PCP? And yes, feeling brave from a substance is not a good thing, but what's even worse, those who do use the substance dont understand it and keep on using it.
Oh and a word of advice: alcohol does not sharpen your sex drive, it just makes you feel like your sex drive is sharpened go hang around people who are drinking, but don't drink. Just observe. It's really quite sad (but funny), and you'll see that alcohol is just another drug.
I have been hanging around with alcoholics, people who drink casually, drug addicts, and so on and so forth. Yes for some people alcohol is a drug and they are addicted to it like hell, but far less than drugs like marijuana. And yes, alcohol does sharpen your sex drive, and helps you achieve the goal. Denying that is childish and/or hypocritical.
Marijuana kind of does take you to another world yeah. It's more intellectual than marijuana. You think of stuff you normally wouldn't think of. It gives you brand new perspectives and lets you know that there are many different ways of thinking.
Yeah I smoke. "Typical drug addict's opinion?" That's so stupid. I mean, what you said is right. But you said the same kind of stuff about alcohol. So that makes you a drug-addict, and you're defense of alcohol is a "typical drug addict's opinion."
The reason we use substances is because we like the way it makes us feel. I know weed is drug. I know it's not an "herb." But having done a good amount of drinking and a good amount of smoking, trust me, Alcohol is a drug. And not only is it a drug, it's a pretty hefty drug (especially liquor). Very dangerous. How many fights are because of alcohol consumption? How many spousal abuse are because of alcohol consumption?
PS: alcohol helps you achieve your goal of getting laid only if the person you are trying to get with is drunk too
The only reason alcohol is legal is because there are so many people who do alcohol that it is impossible to prohibit it. It's not because it's not as harmful.
Watch somebody throwing up on themselves and tell me it's not a drug.
Watch a girl go home with some guy she's never met before and tell me it's not a drug.
Watch frat boys try to load girls full of liquor and get them into their room and tell me it's not a drug.
Watch two otherwise normal people get into a brutal fight that ends in one of them getting his head smashed on the floor and having to be hospitalized, all because one called the other a "***" and tell me it's not a drug.
Watch someone who can barely stand up tell other people they're not drunk and then get in their car and tell me it's not a drug.
Watch somebody go drop 40 bucks in one night at a bar, and tell me it's not a drug.
See all these idiot potheads walking around with pot leaf caps and tshirts, and 4:20 and whatnot? What about people with Budweiser caps and talking about "It's Miller time!"
And what about a "beer bong?" I think that there should give it away. It's A DRUG!!!!!!!!!!
Dekka00, of course booze is a drug. I don't know what mrJukovtette is talking about. He lives in some world I've never heard of. I used to smoke pot and do mushrooms and speed but don't anymore because like virtually everyone else I know I got bored with the stuff and was fed up with the paranoia (and even beer makes you paranoid if you do it for long enogh).
Beer's by far THE worst problem drug in Britain. I haven't got the statistics but it's something like the major factor in 75% of violent crime, theft and domestic violence.
As for hard-drug addiction, which is a problem because of the crime to get the money to buy it, I think we're moving in the right direction in Britain, where we want to make it a medical problem not a criminal problem so that the prison's aren't overflowing with idiots that just happened to get addicted to something.
In the end the most dangerous drug is of course cigarettes, killing a staggering 120,000 people a year in the UK.
h@ts said this in post #8 : Beer's by far THE worst problem drug in Britain. I haven't got the statistics but it's something like the major factor in 75% of violent crime, theft and domestic violence.
H@ts....
Alcohol is also the leading cause of domestic violence in the states.
omg........ i had almost this exact conversation with someone just a few weeks ago. imo, alcohol is FAR more dangerous than weed. and i dont think weed is as addictive as alcohol. i've never seen anyone going into convulsions because of a lack of marijuana!!
anyhow, no need to be redundant. you pretty much summed it up Dekka.
"Typical drug addict's opinion?" That's so stupid.
No it's not. Most drug addicts come up with these 'new ways of thinking' or 'new feelings' stuff. Nothing new.
Just a friendly advice: quit drugs.
I mean, what you said is right. But you said the same kind of stuff about alcohol. So that makes you a drug-addict, and you're defense of alcohol is a "typical drug addict's opinion."
I am not addicted to alcohol whatsoever, and many-many other people who drink are not addicted either. I agree that alcohol is addictive, but marijuana is much worse.
The reason we use substances is because we like the way it makes us feel. I know weed is drug. I know it's not an "herb." But having done a good amount of drinking and a good amount of smoking, trust me, Alcohol is a drug.
Excessive drinking has killed a lot of people. But alcohol is not a drug in usual understanding of that word; it's different in terms of physical affection, addiction, and so on. You can't compare alcohol and weed, for example.
And not only is it a drug, it's a pretty hefty drug (especially liquor). Very dangerous. How many fights are because of alcohol consumption? How many spousal abuse are because of alcohol consumption?
A lot. How many car collisions are because of alcohol? Murders? etc. etc. You have to drink responsibly and control yourself.
The only reason alcohol is legal is because there are so many people who do alcohol that it is impossible to prohibit it. It's not because it's not as harmful.
Exactly. And as a kind of social activity, alcohol is a cool way to spend your time. What's better than a beer after work, watching TV in the comfort of your home?
Watch somebody throwing up on themselves and tell me it's not a drug.
I said already: dont mix drinks, and dont eat chinese food when drinking, and you will be fine.
Watch a girl go home with some guy she's never met before and tell me it's not a drug.
Watch frat boys try to load girls full of liquor and get them into their room and tell me it's not a drug.
It has nothing to do with drugs. Quite opposite, when affected by drugs, women are less likely to desire sex.
I know, it's so stupid to make a girl really drunk so that she doesnt even understand what's going on. Still has nothing to do with drugs.
Watch two otherwise normal people get into a brutal fight that ends in one of them getting his head smashed on the floor and having to be hospitalized, all because one called the other a "***" and tell me it's not a drug.
You have to control yourself. Personally, ive never had a fight when drinking, however i've seen a lot of guys do that. Really i dont understand why would get drunk and fight. Just stupid.
Watch someone who can barely stand up tell other people they're not drunk and then get in their car and tell me it's not a drug.
Watch someone who can barely speak, can't walk or stand at all, and still want to 'roll another one' and tell me it's not a drug.
If you drink too much, you are going to have problems like smashed car, suspended licence and costly fines. What's your point?
Watch somebody go drop 40 bucks in one night at a bar, and tell me it's not a drug.
Watch somebody spend 40 bucks every damn day to buy marijuana and tell me it's not worse than alcohol.
See all these idiot potheads walking around with pot leaf caps and tshirts, and 4:20 and whatnot? What about people with Budweiser caps and talking about "It's Miller time!"
Both of them are stupid.
And what about a "beer bong?" I think that there should give it away. It's A DRUG!!!!!!!!!!
What's beer bong?
btw: PCP is 'angel dust.' I think you snort it or something. Makes people feel invincible. Takes like 7 cops to detain them sometimes.
omg........ i had almost this exact conversation with someone just a few weeks ago. imo, alcohol is FAR more dangerous than weed. and i dont think weed is as addictive as alcohol. i've never seen anyone going into convulsions because of a lack of marijuana!!
Marijuana is just the beginning. You haven't seen many sides of this life.
anyhow, no need to be redundant. you pretty much summed it up Dekka.
I dont even know why am i wasting time trying to convince drug addicts (phewwww) that drugs are bad. Not only these people smoke, they actually defend what they are doing - yes we smoke the ****, and proud of it. Unbelievable.
to say that you are trying to convince "drug addicts" that drugs are bad is just a silly statement.
Why is okay to come home after work and have a few beers but not okay to come home after work and get high? getting high has no worse affect than coming home and having a few beers. both activities are relaxing. I know a lot of people who get high occasionally, i know a lot of people who get high maybe once a week. i know A LOT of people who cant come home after work and NOT have a beer or two or three.
saying that alcohol is not a drug in the usual sense of the word is definetly an unfounded statement. a drug is a drug is a drug is a drug. some may be worse than others but alcohol is every bit as much a drug as weed is. i smoke cigarettes and nicotine IS drug. it may be legal. it may not get me "high" or "drunk" but it is an addictive drug nonetheless.
personally, i would rather see someone smoke a joint and enjoy a few hours of relaxation then for someone to drink a six pack and start acting out loudly and obnoxiously.
you state that people should drink responsibly and that goes for weed. if it is done responsibly than it poses no more risks than alcohol. a responsbile adult knows when to stop drinking and a responsible adult also knows not to experiment with addictive drugs, i.e heroin, coke, etc etc.
i am 29 years old, and have gotten high only a handful of times my entire life. NEVER have i had the desire to do any other drug, other than alcohol. and the handful of times i have been high, i have been in way more control and aware of everything around me than when im out drinking.
i am a mature woman who sustains my own household, cares for my children, works everyday from 8 - 5 in an excellent position. i consider myself to be a great mother and no one can convince me that because MAYBE once a month, when my kids are with their dad, i get high that makes me a drug addict or a bad person.
I am not addicted to alcohol whatsoever, and many-many other people who drink are not addicted either. I agree that alcohol is addictive, but marijuana is much worse.
Alcohol is far far FAR more addictive to marijuana. For example, you can get phsyically dependent on alcohol, but not marijuana. (Yes you can get psychologically addicted, but you can get psychologically addicted to sex or TV as well.)
quote:
Exactly. And as a kind of social activity, alcohol is a cool way to spend your time. What's better than a beer after work, watching TV in the comfort of your home?
MrJukoVette said this in post #12 :
Yep, agree with someone defending drugs. Let some more 15 yos read this and think it's perfectly ok to do DRUGS.
Its not about defending drugs Juko, I dont do drugs...I cant in my business...its about you saying that marijuana is more addictive and honestly there are so many car accidents attributed to drinking and driving...its really easy to say people should drink wisely, but its not realistic....people drink, and then they get in the car and drive...alcohol is worse than marijuana...in the way people perform tasks...now I agree that marijuana lowers the reflexes...but the odds of accidents happening on pot are less to occur than with alcohol.
.........
Alcohol is also the leading cause of domestic violence in the states.
I wonder, what do you understand by 'violence'?
Juko...I work in the criminal justice field....fact is, most domestic violence is caused from alcohol....you can coin the phrase violence...but domestic violence is violent also....many woman have been killed from their drunk husbands, adn vice versa, and even many police officers who have been called to the scene have been killed...its one of the leading causes of officer deaths (alcohol and domestic disturbance (or violence to coin the phrase right)). The thing is...you need to look it up for yourself and see what domestic violence is...since you ask me what my understanding of violence is, it seems you dont understand what domestic violence is..I can give you a few true cases of officers killed in the LOD after responding to a domestic call when the husband or wife has been DRUNK, not smoking pot...but drunk. Or I can give you examples of husband or wives being killed while the other is drunk...it happens but it mostly happens on alcohol...you can argue it all you want...but I know the facts on this one.
Just look it up domestic violence and alcohol....But for now...here is an example:
Domestic disturbance ends in death
ottawatomie County investigators spent most of the weekend conducting background investigations of Tina Springwater, a 40-year-old Wichita resident suspected of killing her boyfriend at the Country Stampede campgrounds Friday evening.
Most of the evidence was collected from the scene Friday night, including a blood-stained, 3-1/4 inch knife, said Gerald Schmidt, Pottawatomie County investigator.
Background investigations will delve into the two peoples' lives in Wichita. In the meantime, authorities will conduct a search of the 1978 Volkswagen bus the couple drove to Manhattan.
The murder was the result of a domestic dispute, according to statements collected from witnesses and the suspect, Schmidt said.
Springwater stabbed her boyfriend, then sought help for him as he lay dying, Schmidt said. She was then arrested. She will be arraigned Monday in Pottawatomie County Court.
Springwater is expected to be charged with the second-degree murder of David L. Shoop, 35, also of Wichita. Second-degree murder refers to a murder that is not premeditated, Schmidt said.
"It was probably the result of drinking and quarreling -- another case of 'alcohol rears its ugly head,'" he said.
Springwater referred to Shoop as "her boyfriend since February" in statements to police, Schmidt said. Both lived in Wichita and had come to Manhattan for the Country Stampede event. Schmidt said the dispute was unrelated to the event.
"If it hadn't happened here, it would have happened in Wichita," he said.
Springwater was accompanied by her three children, who are now in custody of the eldest, a 23-year-old man.
The stabbing took place between 8:45 and 9:45 p.m. Friday in the campground area, just south of the main stage, next to the water, according to police reports.
Witnesses said they saw the couple arrive early Thursday evening. They had been drinking and arguing since arriving, and many campers were advised by other campers to stay out of the couple's way, Schmidt said.
Shoop and Springwater were overheard arguing about a lost ticket Thursday. There was pushing and shoving, according to witnesses, and Shoop was seen striking Springwater.
Witnesses also said Springwater had left the area once, then returned.
The fighting escalated, and witnesses said they saw Springwater strike Shoop in the left side of his chest with a blunt-looking object, Schmidt said.
"Witnesses saw her walk up and do what looked like a stabbing motion," he said. "He was walking around for a while, then he finally laid down and died."
This corresponded with a puncture wound investigators found on the body, which had cut vein leading to the heart.
Apparently, no person realized she had stabbed Shoop, Schmidt said.
R.J. Evans Mortuary in Westmoreland performed the autopsy. The investigator said the stab wound itself was not large, but Shoop apparently struggled, moving left and right, which aggravated the wound, Schmidt said.
Shoop was pronounced dead upon arrival at Memorial Hospital. A pathologist Saturday morning said the wound was consistent with a knife.
Investigators recovered a 3-1/4 inch knife they believe was used in the stabbing.
Springwater, after stabbing Shoop, yelled to him, "You see what happens? I'm not a *****. I told you I'm not a *****," witnesses told police.
She then went to the Volkswagen and began to throw objects from it. After that, she found a police officer, asked him for help and reported she had stabbed Shoop.
mystic i am not defending alcohol or denying existence of alcoholism or accidents happening due to affection of alcohol. My point is, casual drinking is acceptable. Smoking drugs is not.
SO what if there is a woman who killed someone while being drunk. OK, she probably wouldn't do it if she was sober, but she must have some kind of mental problem. Why dont i kill anybody when drunk?
Anyways. I dont feel like developing this topic anymore.
I don't know if you missed my question earlier, or just didn't want to answer, so I'll ask again: How old are you?
at least tell me if you just don't want to answer so I'll know if you saw the question.
You either have not had much experience in life or just haven't been around illegal drugs at all, but you obviously don't know anything about them.
I don't roll joints everytime I want to feel good about myself any more than you pop a beer everytime you want to feel good. There are people who get out of hand with both weed and alcohol, but I think you will find that in both departments they are the minority.
The big question is: if alcohol is such a huge contributing factor to crime, why the hell isn't it illegal?
Dekka00 said this in post #22 : The big question is: if alcohol is such a huge contributing factor to crime, why the hell isn't it illegal?
Heh! I give you an "A" for asking the question of the day!!!
Alcohol is a contributing factor in many cases of crime...not all..but many! With the amount of people that die every year from drunk driving accidents, you would think this alone would make it an issue.
Its a great question Dekka....I would certainly love to know the answer to it or have some sort of an answer myself.
MrJukoVette said this in post #26 : I see, it's too difficult to answer.
First you say you dont want to develop this topic and now you are back yelling because we havent answered in a specific time frame....the minute you stopped saying you wanted to talk about it, I stopped coming on here...yet here you are all eager to get back into it.
First off...yes I know my country's history....and yes, I know we had prohibition (18th Amendment) but it was legalized again in the 30's and later repealed in the 21st amendment which repealed nationwide prohibition. FYI...It gives states the right to restrict or ban the purchase and sale of alcohol. It may be legally sold in some but not all towns or counties within a state.
Whats the point of this conversation??
Point now is that it is legal NOW and most towns do not act upon this amendment...and the towns that do doesnt stop alcoholism...in fact, people will go to the closet town to buy it or drink it.
Just because alcohol was prohibited during those days..people still had it and admitted to it. It didnt stop them from having then, and now it doesnt stop them either.....all they will do is drive to the next town to have it....
MrJukoVette said this in post #24 : Mystic and Dekka, you are both american, aren't you? Why don't you know your country's history?
Name 2 countries where alcohol was prohibitied from sale and distribution and when it happened.
I don't know what the point of this question is, but I don't know any other country besides US that banned it.
I can tell you this though: the reason it didn't work is because the majority of Americans were alcohol-users. When the President is in the White House drinking alcohol, the ban simply isn't going to work. That's why it's legal. It has nothing to do with whether it's a dangerous drug or not.
I can't believe you are actually debating whether alcohol is a drug or not. ALL substance abuse, regardless of the substance, starts casual. For some people it takes off into addiction, for some people it doesn't. And to argue that marijuana is more addictive and harmful than liquor is absurd.
I've run with many different circles in my life and I've met many different kinds of people; stoners, alcoholics, heavy substance abusers, physical abusers, the clean and the sober.
One thing that has always remained a constant with every aggressive drinker I've known, is that they're more prone to violence than any chronic pot smoker has ever been.
Alcohol has played a contributing factor in many tragedies including murder, manslaughter, suicide, physical abuse, major collisions of cars, buses, trains, & planes, as well as causing ecological disasters; Exxon oil spill.
In most deadly car accidents, the contributing factor is alcohol, rather than marijuana.
Out of the two, Alcohol is clearly a far more dangerous drug than marijuana.
Thought I'd share...considering what weve been discussing...I found this really interesting.
Drunken driving is increasing, not decreasing
05/02/2004
Experts can't explain the rise, given years of public education campaigns and tougher laws. Despite it all, repeat offenders appear to be a persistent problem.
By Jeremy Kohler
Of the Post-Dispatch
Drunken driving charges against St. Louis Rams star Leonard Little last week illuminated a vexing problem: Despite nearly two decades of public education and an array of laws designed to deter drunken driving, it's not going away.
Figures released Wednesday by a U.S. agency that compiles highway safety data show that drunken drivers are a bigger menace today than any time since the mid-1990s.
"Something that should still be decreasing is increasing," said Mike Boland, president of Mothers Against Drunk Driving in St. Louis. "Most people assume things have been getting better. They're not."
A major contributor to dangerous roads, some traffic safety experts say, is the chronic drunken driver - or "persistent offender."
That's the term used by the statute that the prosecuting attorney in St. Louis County used last week to charge Little, 29, with a felony form of drunken driving. Little had pleaded guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the 1998 drunken-driving crash in downtown St. Louis that killed Susan Gutweiler.
A Ladue police officer accused the Rams standout of failing three sobriety tests during a traffic stop on April 24.
Police Officer Greg Stork said in an affidavit that Little had bloodshot eyes and smelled of alcohol. Stork also said Little admitted he had been drinking. Authorities revealed later that Little refused a breath test.
Little could not be reached. His lawyer, Scott Rosenblum of Clayton, said his client is innocent, but he would not answer questions about the case and said Little would refuse an interview.
If Little is found to be a persistent offender, then he has plenty of company. One in three people charged with drunken driving repeats the offense; people with drunken-driving convictions are involved in fatal crashes more than four times as often as the general population, said the National Commission Against Drunk Driving.
"The thing that's disturbing is that many of them are people who have been caught once, then gone through the system, and whatever has been done to them hasn't worked," said John Moulden, the commission's president.
Courts need to do a better job of ordering penalties that would deter someone from a repeat offense, he said.
Moulden said two actions tend to discourage repeaters: A suspension of driving privileges and treatment for alcohol dependency.
Little's sentence for Gutweiler's death was 90 nights in jail as part of a work-release program, 1,000 hours of community service and four years of probation.
It was not immediately clear whether Little lost driving privileges or underwent alcohol treatment, either voluntary or forced.
Little presented a Tennessee drivers license to the Ladue police officer; authorities in St. Louis County were still checking on Friday whether the license was valid.
Moulden's commission says simple jail time has been shown to have no affect on recidivism in chronic drunken drivers.
"No matter what you do, if they have a problem with alcohol, if you put them in jail or tie them to a tree and then you release them, they're going to be back into the same behaviors and problems that they've started with," he said.
"We simply don't do enough of the right things to these people to prevent them" from drinking and driving again.
That could be part of the reason why drunken driving deaths are on the rise in Missouri, Illinois and nationwide.
Last year, 15,063 people nationwide died in drunken-driving crashes, according to estimates released last week by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
That was more than any other year since 1996. The numbers had fallen by nearly 40 percent from 1982 to 1996, the highway safety agency said.
More disturbing news: Injuries from alcohol-related crashes soared 13 percent last year, the agency estimated.
Both Missouri and Illinois in 2002 saw six-year highs in the number of drunken-driving deaths. (The national highway safety agency has not yet released 2003 figures for states.)
"Everyone is very concerned about the trend, and nobody knows for sure why it's happened," said Anne McCartt, a senior research associate for the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, based in Arlington, Va.
"The truth is we are not really sure" why drunken-driving deaths are rising, she said. Perhaps the issue itself has fallen out of vogue, she said.
"In the last few years, occupant restraint and seat belts have been the focus, too. To some extent, there is a natural tendency for people to just not be able to keep up a focus on an issue for a sustained period of time."
The institute believes one way to turn things around is for police to step up checkpoints and to instill drunken drivers with fear that they will be caught. It's something most police departments used to do regularly, but less now.
St. Louis County police average one or two checkpoints a month, said Mason Keller, a spokesman. Budget cuts have kept the department from doing more.
"It's a personnel issue," Keller said. "It takes a lot of manpower, like 15 officers at a checkpoint, to crack down on drunk drivers."
I have scan-read a lot of this and I too am interested the age of MrJukoVette. Your view does seem very narrow-minded and therefore I assume you are young and/ or have little life expereince.
I am a smoker and have been for the last umm, I'd say about six years. I don't drink except socially and even then very rarely. I come home after a day AT WORK (I am not a bum) and I cook my dinner, I do my housework, I pay my bills and then I have a puff. You can come home and have AS MUCH BEER (or wine) AS YOU LIKE and you are not a threat to society, yet I come home and have ONE little cone, ONE, and I am supposedly bringing society down and contributing to the end of the world. Come on. Get real guys.
I don't drive when I am stoned, I would not get stoned before looking after someone's kids or sitting an exam or whatever. I don't even come to work when I am stoned. Yet the woman who held this job before me came to work every day drunk, she lost $25,000.00 AUS from the business and stole more money when she left (was fired) and now she has a coloscomy bag, no job, no home, her kids are being taken away from her, no partner and basically no life.
Alcohol is worse than marijuana in almost every aspect.
Alcohol contains more unnatural chemicals than marijuana (grown naturally OR hydrophonically), alcohol effects more organs and bodily functions that marijuana (both in the short-term and long-term), alcohol's side effects can be harder to come out of then marijuana ie: it is easier to "straighten up" than it is to sober up, people on alcohol cause/ commit more accidents and crimes than people on marijuana, alcoholics have a higher likelihood of being in destructive relationships, a higher liklihood of not holding down a job, a higher liklihood of not having children.
I can go on an on, but the point is:
You need to adjust your attitude to see that alcohol and marijuana are very similar in most aspects:
1) They are both drugs
2) They both change your perceptionsof the real world when you are under the influence
3) People take them both mostly to relax at the end of the day/ week
4) They both can be abused and taken in excessive amounts causing harm both to the user and potentially to people around them
4) BUT ... As long as they are done in moderation, they won't harm anyone, and that goes for BOTH alcohol and marijuana.
Your point that marijuana leads to trying harder drugs does not stand up. I tried smoking AFTER I had tried drinking. You said that most kids can get their hands on dope easier than getting alcohol. Well here most parents have liquor in the house, I don't know any parents that have dope around the house. Experimentation is normal amoung teens and ususally they experiment with what is readily available to them which in my day was your Mum's Vodka, not Dad's spliff.
If you take a look at the system in Holland and how and when it was introduced as being legal to smoke you will find that after it was legalised, the consumption actually DROPPED and consumption of harder drugs also DROPPED, especially in the younger generations. Young kids, especially now-a-days do stuff to be "cool" because it is against the law and making it legal changes their perception of it so they don't feel compelled to do it. Sure some will do it, but they will do it whether it's legal or not.
My main point in life is live and let live. If I want to have a cone at the end of the day, then why should you care? If you want to have a beer or a scotch or even Sam Bouka at the end of your day, I don't care.
Currently, we have two 'socially accepted' narcotics: tobacco and alcohol. Because of their legal status and because of tradition, the use of the both is highly widespread and causes much harm. Tobacco, maybe, causes less harm then alcohol, because it's never a reason for committing crimes.
If weed is legalised we'll have three socially accepted drugs instead of the current two, and grass will be available to children at home like alcohol drinks today.
Obviously, once marijuana is legal, no tobacco-smoker or drinker would give up drinking and/or smoking tobacco, we'd just have a large amount of weed-smokers added to the drinkers and tobacco smokers. So the health of general public would be just worse. Do we really need this?
The logic is: don't seek another trouble for your ass, legalising weed, otherwise it'll widespread that much, you'll can do nothing to it like currently nothing can be done to drinking.
Are your police inappropriate in controlling the black market?
In Russia beer consumption causes much more threat to teenagers just because it's not legally an alcohol drink. Something like Pepsi.
The reason weed is easier to get is because a drug dealer doesn't care if he's selling weed to a 21 year old or a 15 year old. A shopkeeper selling beer, on the other hand, does.
And if parents smoke weed, it doesn't matter if it's legal or illegal, the kids can still get a hold of it.
Half the time it's just people growing a couple plants in their basement and smoking it, not selling it. And there is absolutely no reason why that should be illegal.
Barbed wire said this in post #32 : Currently, we have two 'socially accepted' narcotics: tobacco and alcohol. Because of their legal status and because of tradition, the use of the both is highly widespread and causes much harm. Tobacco, maybe, causes less harm then alcohol, because it's never a reason for committing crimes.
If weed is legalised we'll have three socially accepted drugs instead of the current two, and grass will be available to children at home like alcohol drinks today.
Obviously, once marijuana is legal, no tobacco-smoker or drinker would give up drinking and/or smoking tobacco, we'd just have a large amount of weed-smokers added to the drinkers and tobacco smokers. So the health of general public would be just worse. Do we really need this?
Well tobacco can be a reason for comitting crimes. When people hold up service station, what do they take? Cash and cigarettes.
If someone smokes weed at home their kids can find it and take it whether it's illegal or not.
There already ARE a large number of weed smokers. Legalising marijuana won't increase the number of people who smoke. This has been proven in other countries where legalisation has been done.
Well, I don't know the how many people smoke grass in your country, but I guess there will be as many people as the number of tobacco-smokers today once weed is sold in groceries like cigarettes.
But I think the idea that it's difficult for kids to get alcohol is wrong.
First, a 21 y.o. person may buy alcohol from usual stories and then resell it to 15 y. olds.
Secondly, kids may give money to some alcoholic to buy booze for them for some reward.
So, if a teenager wants to get alcohol he or she will get it anyway.
People may grow poppies in their basements to get opium just like they grow grass now. They won't sell it, why should it be illegal?
If weed-smoking is illegal currently but virtually not prosecuted, so the police doesn't pay attention on it, and is already widespread that much, then legalising weed smoking may be the best choice.
I know your argument is logical, but I'm speaking from experience here. I had many attempts at obtaining weed and alcohol when I was 15 and 16, and weed is a cinch. Now as I got older alcohol became far, far easier to get, I had friends that were 21 and all.
But I think the law enforcement in Russia and US is way way way WAY different so it may not be good to compare. If you're between the ages 14-24 cops'll give you the stink-eye no matter what you're doing.
Well, that's not about law enforcement system at all.
Your statement of course is that the US law enforcement system is better, what looks right, but the US system fails to stop illegal weed trade now.
What about poor suburbs of large American cities? It seems to me there isn't any law enforcments cicties at all in places like Bronx in NY, etc. If it is so the kids there may get whatever narcotic: weed, cocain or anything else they want.
Try writing one of those about alcohol and compare. You will see.
I just pisses me off when people think they're high and mighty because they drink but they don't "do drugs." Please. You're a junkie like everyone else.
To conclude: yes, if the situation went that far that there are a large number of weed smokers then it's really better to legalise it taking into account that's not the most dangerous narcotic.
The bad thing is that once the society drank, then they drank and smoked tobacco, now they drink, smoke tobacco and weed.
What is next in the line for legalisation? Opium?
Barbed wire said this in post #39 : Well, I don't know the how many people smoke grass in your country, but I guess there will be as many people as the number of tobacco-smokers today once weed is sold in groceries like cigarettes.
I don't think that will ever happen. Even if pot is legalized, I somehow don't ever see it as something that is sold in a grocery or convenience store. It would more than likely have a hash bar setting like in Amsterdam.
Also, I don't neccessarily think it sould be legalized, maybe just decriminalized.
"""why not? it isnt the governments place to protect adults from there own decisions.""""
PROTECTED FROM OUR OWN CHOICES? Why should somebody else decide whats right or wrong for somebody? Governments decide what THEY think is good for society, but the problem is no individual could possibly embody society so nobody agrees entirely with the government. What makes a government superior to an individual. Why are we put under so much control by people who are only mere human beings like ourselves - what decides that one human-being is more 'correct' than another, its ludicrous. We should be allowed to decide what is correctfor ourselves (ok i know im promoting anarchy here). People shouldnt be told what and what not to put into their bodies i mean they allow the disgusting secretive treatment of food in the food industry - its alright to put a tumerous battery-farmed chicken in your mouth but drugs are bad mkAY.
Its kind of annoying that IF people only have one life they can't be allowed to make choices for themselves.
So much damn control!!!!!!
cue a little bit of rage against the machine...
chelktty what is the difference between legalization and decriminalization - is that the same over here in the UK?
decriminalized means you could get fined for it and it would be controlled and still illegal, but you can't get thrown in jail for it or get a criminal record for it.
As someone who has used marijuana and alcohol, I really must say that alcohol has incapacitated me on more than one occasion. I really have never known a marijuana addict. I don't believe marijuana is a gateway drug. If it were, many of our politicians, doctors and lawyers would be heroin addicts.
I've seen the sad consequences associated with alcohol and alcoholism. Study an alcoholic for a number of years, and you will see that they are not playing with a full deck of cards. They've probably burned more brain cells than they have left.
I don't touch marijuana anymore. The last few times I did, I said it would be the last time!! The marijuana that is being sold on the streets is so poisoned and loaded with too many harsh chemicals, like embalming fluid! If I ever come across marijuana that is "pure", I may consider having an occasional "moment".
If government legalizes marijuana, they can control the harvesting and "manufacturing" of it. That would pretty much guarantee its "pureness". Not to mention, the government would reap the financial rewards.
The last time I checked, my brain cells and mental stability were completely in check. I wish I could say the same for the people who have slowly killed themselves by using alcohol for a number of years.
The marijuana that is being sold on the streets is so poisoned and loaded with too many harsh chemicals, like embalming fluid! If I ever come across marijuana that is "pure", I may consider having an occasional "moment".
Over here you can grow two plants and possess up to 25g without getting a criminal record you just have to go to a group counselling thing = lame smack on the wrist
in Virginia if you grow it is considered "Possession with intent to distribute" even if it's only one plant unless you can somehow prove you were growing it for private consumption. But you are guilty until proven innocent on that charge. It's jacked up. They can even seize your house if they want.
Dekka00 said this in post #54 : They can even seize your house if they want.
They can sieze your house here too, but you have be growing a fair amount of weed. Some pensioners recently were caught, they were like 70 and 80 years old, and their son had been growing in their roof space, they said they didn't know it was there, but that's debatable. They had their house taken away.
schmiggens said this in post #31 : I have scan-read a lot of this (...) Sorry if I blabbered on a bit.
Good on ya - your entire message is quite inline with what I was looking to respond with.
It's disturbing when people form an opinion of something that somehow gets firmly rooted and won't be swayed by ANY additional input, no matter how compelling & reasonable that input may be compared to how UNreasonable their original basis for opinion was.
A couple things that I will add follow:
1) nobody in their right mind would encourage kids to use substances of any kind; none of us who favor the legalization of marijuana do.
2) anyone who does not believe that intoxication can change your perception of the world and profoundly affect an individual's outlook on life is clearly someone who has no basis for an opinion. My suggestion to you is to immediately go smoke weed until you are sufficiently high (a full joint perhaps if it's your first time) so that you can actually speak from experience rather than ignorance. You have my personal guarantee that you will not become addicted from that one joint and you will have an experience to cherish for a lifetime if you never go back to it again. Be mindful of your attitude/mood and who is with you when you try for the first time as your altered perceptions can add a whole new depth of meaning to the things around you, for better, or for worse. In the meantime, please refrain from spreading ignorance. It's not becoming.
3) Even for substances that have a chemical means for addiction, not everyone is suceptible. I've been smoking weed for years, at my peak usage a couple times a month, and now a couple times a year. I can put down more alcohol than most people walking and still make my own way to the bathroom. But something about my chemistry makes these things completely non-addictive for me. I can get completely loaded/trashed one night and the next day I'm fine (possible hangover expections depending on what the flavor of the night was).
4) Even substances that are statistically considered "gateway drugs" (such as alcohol and cannabis) don't necessarily lead to harder drug use. Education is a key part of this. I have a decent education and am familiar with various chemical compositions of drugs such as lisurgic acid, various phetamines (ecstacy included) and heroin and have decided consciously that those things are not for me. I will stick to natural experimentation only such as firmented alcohols, weed and I'm working my way up to try a shroom trip one day. It's my business and nobody elses'. Why should anybody have the right to tell me I can't do these things? If I am not walking into the situation ignorantly and am not approaching it for the wrong reasons, then where is the error in my ways?
4) It's not only escapism, truly. In many cases, the whole concept of "drug abuse" is actual abusive use, often deriving from escapism. There is a whole other class of users out there: those who enjoy the experience for what it is.
I could go on, but the topic is exhausting when talking at the closed-minded.
the_way_it_is said this in post #50 : I really have never known a marijuana addict.
I know addicts. Some of them are harmless daily smokers. Others are excessive abusers who are causing significantly harmful effects to themselves. Count yourself lucky that you don't have any friends who you care about and who have taken a turn down the wrong path, but don't think for a minute that they're not out there just because you have never known any..
quote:
I don't believe marijuana is a gateway drug. If it were, many of our politicians, doctors and lawyers would be heroin addicts.
It is a statistical fact that it is a gateway drug for serious, hardcore substance abusers, believe it or not. But the numbers aren't lying to you. The fact is that hardcore drug users who get high for the first time from pot and then try to smoke "even more" to see if they can get "even higher than that" find that they hit a plateau and must seek other avenues to get higher. That's when their friends start making recommendations and pot has served as a "gateway" for their interest in getting higher. It is considered a gateway because it is where a lot of these types of abusers start: with the harmless option that they could walk away from if they didn't like it.
Being a gateway drug however, does not necessarily equate to future hardcore abuse. Just as heavy drinkers start with a perpencity towards alcoholism even before they have their first drink, heavy drug abusers have a perpensity for substance abuse before they ever hit that gateway. This makes the statistic more reflective of the perpensities of the nature of people in general moreso than that marijuana or alcohol are either particularly worse than the other as "gateways".
But make no mistake: pot IS regarded as a gateway drug because of these statistics. The politicians and lawyers and everyone else whom you refer to who ahven't progressed to harder drugs have not because they are not abusers. I think you may also be underestimating the level of drug use among people with money though. Coccaine is REAL big still where there's money flinging around.
When I first posted in this thread, I believe I was a little too eager and willing to acknowledge that marijuana has not been a gateway drug for a lot of people. I know very well that there are many people in this world whose usage of marijuana has led and will lead to the usage of other/more potent drugs. I have to agree with you that it is a matter of susceptibility. I am one of the lucky ones. I have always had the ability to know when it's time to slow down. Other people aren't built that way. I would be the biggest fool on earth to stand by my claim that most of our doctors, lawyers and politicians would be heroin addicts if marijuana were a gateway drug. Shamefully, I have known of a few doctors who do indulge in drugs such as cocaine, all of whom started experimenting with marijuana at a younger age.
I do stand by my stance on the legalization of marijuana, but I believe it does require government regulation. Although I still say that I have never known a marijuana addict, I have come across a few addicts of other substances who willingly admit that a marijuana high just doesn't do it for them anymore. At one time, I thought that those people, based on my personal abilities and restrictions, were weak. I now know that is not the case and that addiction is a very serious and immobilizing disease for the people who are unfortunate enough to be afflicted by it.
When being faced with the question of whether marijuana is a gateway drug, our only honest answer can be the same answer we offer when being faced with the question of why some people become alcoholics and others don't.
In my original post, I believe I was trying to paint a very pretty and somewhat deceiving picture of marijuana. The government regulated wine I was drinking that night must have gone to my head and dulled my senses.
the progression from marujana to harder drugs may only be an inherent facet of its illegality.
The fact that a lot of people who turn to drugs do it because they feel they are breaking free of rules, or being 'bad' means that any soft illegal drug could be a gateway drug to a harder substance. if alcohol was illegal it would be a gateway drug...
Drug taking as rebellionism is pretty damn silly- people shouldnt be so weak that they let someone else define for them what right and wrong are - and so need to 'rebel'. When i do something that some people think i shouldnt do i dont consider it rebellionism - just making a choice. I just have a different belief system to them (if any) and never raise any single viewpoint above my own free thaught.
a person doesn't get addicted to marijuana. its impossibe to be physically addicted to it, if u don't believe me go to counseling and they tell u that. it is a phsycological thing.
brokenhalo689 said this in post #62 : a person doesn't get addicted to marijuana. its impossibe to be physically addicted to it, if u don't believe me go to counseling and they tell u that. it is a phsycological thing.
As I understand it, this is correct. It's not an actual chemical addiction like other drugs.
Self-abuse in any form isn't smart, really. Consider all the other things that people do to themselves which are not regulated, but result in profound life changes:
* poor diet
* no oral or physical hygiene
* lack of physical activity
* smoking
* drinking
* driving dangerously
* anger management problems
* depression
I mean really.. what's one more thing to add to the list in the scheme of things that lets people destroy their own lives however they see fit?
* substance abuse
Of course, under careful moderation, any of these problems can be contained or reversed as desired. But that desire has to be there. This is where the phrase "responsible users" comes from.
I dont know if I agree with the whole "pot makes people stupid thing."
One of our best friends owns a multi-million dollar company and the guy smokes pot pretty regularly...his company continues to flourish more and more all the time....
The guy is completely intelligent...and smoking pot hasnt changed that.
One of the cities in my state...Columbia, Missouri...has just changed the laws to be the first in the state to do this..they voted to decriminalize pot for medicinal purposes....AND have even lowered the penalties if one gets caught with a small amount of recreational pot....Im pretty sure it will be probably be challenged though, as state laws cannot become more liberal than federal laws....they can become more harsh, but not more liberal.
But its really just an example of how people might start thinking of it differently.
I wouldnt say that if they said it was strictly only for medicinal purposes, but the fact that they also lessened penalties on recreational...Im thinking maybe that people see it that way...of course, I dont know...thats just my opinion.
I guess I still go back to alcohol, and wonder...which one of them is the lesser evils of the two. Personally, I wouldnt want to drive on the road with either one on the road....but if I had to choose, Id rather have the person smoking pot, and not the drunk person driving on the road at the same time as me.
from what was said earlier about it making u stupid...im a sophomore in college and i smoked from 7-9 grade almost everyday and at least once a week for the next couple years and now only once in awhile. it has never affected me in school, i never had below a 3.3 in high school and below a 3.2 in college and i didnt' even study in high school and barely study now. if pot made me stupid why am i not stupid.
[QUOTE]sowhatsthetruth said this in post #64 : Makes your brain like tar though. Actually puts resins between your neurons.
Not a very smart thing to do, unless you actually LIKE being stupid. [/QUOTE
Safer than alcohol or cigarettes. Where do you get your um...facts?
AA says I am an alcoholic, but I am really just a drug addict. I believe that alcohol is one of the worse drugs there is.
"Drug" addicts with alcohol in their arsenal attend AA and not NA because alcohol is more dominant than their other chemical dependencies.
Maybe due in part to my addictive nature, I became hooked on alcohol by the time I was 14. I tried other drugs briefly but alcohol was my true love. Just having a few social drinks without getting addicted never happen for me.
An addict is an addict because they are an addict. There is no worthwhile excuse.
After a quarter of a century, 2004 is my first full year drug free
14theroad said this in post #73 : AA says I am an alcoholic, but I am really just a drug addict. I believe that alcohol is one of the worse drugs there is.
"Drug" addicts with alcohol in their arsenal attend AA and not NA because alcohol is more dominant than their other chemical dependencies.
Maybe due in part to my addictive nature, I became hooked on alcohol by the time I was 14. I tried other drugs briefly but alcohol was my true love. Just having a few social drinks without getting addicted never happen for me.
An addict is an addict because they are an addict. There is no worthwhile excuse.
After a quarter of a century, 2004 is my first full year drug free
Congrats! My Dad, through the grace of God and AA is sober now for over 11 years. Good luck to you man!
Maybe not 15 million, but at least 40% SMOKE MARIJUANA ALREADY. Teachers, policemen, doctors (!), scientists - mature, responsible family people smoke drugs. Unebelievable? Better believe it, i've seen it with my eyes. Sometimes i had no idea and would never think that these people smoke drugs, until i get into their crew.
It has nothing to do with drugs. Quite opposite, when affected by drugs, women are less likely to desire sex.
I'm in total agreement with you Dekka!
There is no worthwhile excuse.