Who Our We Fighting??

Post-9/11 Era Forum

WHO EXACTLY OUR WE FIGHTING IN IRAQ??

Were not fighting Saddam loyalists, were not fighting terrorists, but were fighting Shiite & Sunni Muslims fighting for the independence of their country.

Why our we fighting these people?

How exactly is this war going to end?

I hope all of you can start thinking from other peoples perspectives. Would you like another country occupying America?
I hope you can answer this question truthfully.

Its really sad, the only people suffering from this pointless war our american soldiers and eventually american citzens from the rise in terrorism. The positives of this war, underweigh all the negatives


- rise in terrorism
- deaths of american soldiers
- loss of credibility from the world
- $150 billion dollars

Good will always prevail over evil in the end. So with that said, the right wing christians running America, and the right wing muslims causing terrorism will both eventually fall.

Rest in peace Neo Conservatives

Get real.
Wouldn't it be better to let us leave than to keep us there? They are keeping us there as an occupation and more troops will be sent because they cannot survive without misery. Without a war or battle, they would have nothing else to do. They have no other skills than war.

I truely believe that when the coalition leaves, Iraq will become an Islamic state and will be far worse that Iran. Why? As I said before, they only know war and Islam makes it right.

If Iraq becomes a islamic state it will be a much worser threat to America than the former regime of Saddam Hussein. Its real funny how things work out. Our government makes phony allegations before the war that Iraq was a threat to us, that terrorists were in Iraq, and they were a threat to their neighbours.

If an islamic state rules after the war then sadly all of these lies will turn into reality.

Obviously though, the same thing that happened in Saudi Arabia is going to happen in Iraq. Do you actually think American troops are ever going to completely withdraw from Iraq?

Their numbers will decrease as Iraq stabilizes, but there will always be troops stationed there to make sure the new Iraq "Democracy" will do America's bidding.

If the people of a region want an Islamic state, THAT IS THEIR RIGHT.

64impala,

"If Iraq becomes a islamic state it will be a much worser threat to America than the former regime of Saddam Hussein. Its real funny how things work out. Our government makes phony allegations before the war that Iraq was a threat to us, that terrorists were in Iraq, and they were a threat to their"

Really refreshing to hear a sensible American on this site.

As Preston Likely said earlier, scepticism is the microsope of the mind that we should all hold up to our governments in order to keep them in chec k.
You are brave to show such scepticism.

Just remember, the Marines are sniping civilians left and right: Women—particularly the pregnant ones—and children—the younger, the better. In fact, the small ones sleeping peacefully in their cribs or suckling contentedly in their mother's bosoms are prime targets. We are bombing old toothless Iraqi men as they kneel and pray in their holy mosques. The older and more toothless they are, the better. And the more damage that we can do to mosques, schools, homes and AMBULANCES, the more we pat ourselves on the back and earn promotion points. Shoot, man, why we're just targeting civilians by the hundreds, even thousands daily. For this is the way of the U.S. Marine. This is the way of the American soldier. This is the way of America. God bless, Allah is Great.

Curley,

Surely US marines don't shoot old toothless hags. Come on! US marines are the best in the world. God's on their side. They fight for justice and peace. The are liberators. On the side of the righteous. Thoroughly decent chaps. They always think before shooting. They always knock on the mosque doors before shooting. They stop firing when donkey's cross their path of fire. They share their water with their enemies. They always admit when they're wrong. They show humility and are never arrogant.

Sorry, I got confused for a moment - I'm confusing the US marines with Batman and Robin.

They our not fighting Saddam loyalists. Shiite Muslims are against Saddam Hussein and those are the people we our fighting.

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The U.S. casualties announced Sunday included five Marines killed when a patrol came under attack by insurgents with machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades near the town of Husaybah close to the Syrian border, the Marines said.

The fighting continued through the night, the Marines said, pitting their troops against 120 to 150 insurgents. The Marines estimated 25 to 30 insurgents were killed in the attack.

They also reported seeing women and children surrounding mortar positions but could not tell if they were there voluntarily. They said the insurgents fired at medical helicopters carrying wounded Marines from the battlefield.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast...main/index.html

The fighting today is for dominance in Government and not so much against the coalition. The sooner they can force us out, the better chance they can influence an imature government. You see, they really don't care about Iraq as a country or human rights for tha matter, it is the secular power that interests them. He who rules get's rich. It is all they know. They don't know about human rights nor do they care.
Another point if ingorance is that they think we will leave by force. Where they get this, I don't know. It is counter productive to their agenda. Either they are really stupid or completely blinded by the Clerics who think this is a good idea.
It would be much easier to overthrow the Iraqi Governmant once the coalition is gone.

Do you truly believe that the coalition will ever leave? I'm very skeptical, I think the Iraqis may be too.

Still, if they were smart they'd wait to fight.

Maybe they feel it's now or never

From what I see today, no, the coalition will never leave. Maybe, just maybe, if they stop the killing we will leave. That sounds pretty far fetched though. These people have been fighting for a thousand years and still have never gained anything. Many still live the same way as they did a thousand years ago.

I say add more troops. Even double the amount.

I say let the Arabs deal with the Arabs.

That will never happen. They can't even manage their own governments, let alone try and help manage another.

I know as the richest nation on Earth we feel it is our place to play Mommy and Daddy to the rest of the world, but it's not. We are the spoiled children who can't see beyond our SUVs and our suburban mansions.

Not true. The UN is responcible for some of our missery when it comes to being Big Brother. Besides, everyone likes the almighty US dollar.

I agree on the spoiled thing.
I love my 3 cars and big house. I'm glad I live here and not in England or Scottland or Autralia or anywhere else.
I like to grill big fat steaks and drink beer every weekend and mow my great big yard twice a week.

Ain't freedom great?

1- The UN has no place in Iraq.

2- Dekka, you are probally the most Anti-American on this forum.

3- If we let the Arabs deal with the Arabs, we get another 9/11.

And if you call the American Dream spoiled, yeah, we are spoiled.

Dekka00,

Nice to see a brave American on this site, displaying signs of scepticism. So long as there are more like you in the USA, the world has a chance of not being suffocated by Bushian righteousness, green-house gasses (the biggest WMD) and general ignorance.

You have my approval

Preston

The American Dream isn't taught. It's a reward.

The American dream is everybody else's nightmare.

It seems to have left certain Americans hopelessly deluded, as though they are some sort of chosen race by God Almighty.

I think certain Americans mistake "God Bless America" with "God Blast America", because, as things stand, the US regime is on a mission to become the most despised government in the history of the US, and on a road to self destruction, because the Bush regime will not giraffe its head above the parapet of ignorance and observe how much of the rest of the world balks at the idea of American arrogance.

Maybe, and this is a large maybe, America will learn to put the word "humility" back in its lexicon.

Preston, the radar of observation

Preston, I doubt these guys actually know what the American dream is. They don't realise that pretty much everybody in the West lives the same kind of lifestyle, enjoys a similar standard of living, watches the same movies, listens to the same kind of music, etc etc.

But obviously the America dream is more than this... its a reward. I'm looking forward to finding out what this reward is.

it's friggin' communism. Be a good boy, don't commit any thoughtcrimes.

Good points fellas

American fantasy/dream, call it what you will. It equates to greed and mammoth amounts of greenhouse gas emissions, which, ironically, is the biggest WMD of all. And what is the American regime doing to curb the greenhouse gas emissions? Absolutely queen zero. Forget Al Qaeda: the USA will suffocate its own people before Al Qaeda launches another attack on America plc.

Preston.

h@ts and Preston,
You will never know. Frankly neither of you deserve it anyway. Stay where you are. That way there's more for us.
Sincerley,
Happy snuggling in the American Dream.

USA1,

American Dream = greed, pollution, greenhouse gases, suffocation.

The last laughs on you, geezer. For your moronic government/regime is looking in the wrong place for WMD: it's in the sky, it's called greenhouse emissions, ha! ha! And it has been forecast by hundreds of well-respected scientists that the greenhouse factor will be responsible for a thousand times more deaths than Al Qaeda-inspired mayhem. And the US is the leading polluter, ergo, a greenhouse emissions' terrorist, willfully polluting the atmosphere in order to chase its tail - the silly American wet dream.

So ironic.

American Dream is a man with nothing working his way to the top.

Ideally, it's through an honest, decent living, hard work, and a strong will. This will only get you to the middle though. To get to the top you have to be savage and cold-hearted.

You foreigners who stereotype Americans should be aware that a recent opinion poll shows Americans being 52/48 in favor of the Iraq war. That's a pretty even split. Considering that it was an American war with our troops on the line, that's a very low approval rating. The number peaked up during the actual fighting out of general patriotism, but other than that short period of time, the split has been pretty even here.

I don't get why these Iraq threads all have to degenerate to America vs. Everyone Else.

I guess it's just the personalties involved.

- woolfe

This is hilarious just watching the remarks back and forth. From my observations, I have noticed a strange pattern. I hate to stereotype, but this is what I am noticing. When the Anti-Bush member speaks up his comments are well worded, polite (unless fired upon), and containing facts to back his argument. However, when I read the Pro-Bush response most of the time its defensive, immature, and rude.


You can come to your own conclusions..............

Excellent observation, 64impala.

This site needs Sherlock Holmes' types like you.

Dr. Preston Homes.

|?,|yti]Dekka00 said this in post #35 :[/i]
American Dream is a man with nothing working his way to the top.

Ideally, it's through an honest, decent living, hard work, and a strong will. This will only get you to the middle though. To get to the top you have to be savage and cold-hearted. [/QUOTE]

How sad for you. I understand why you reside in a cave atop a remote mountain.

The man who resides in a cave at the top of a mountain sees all around him, breaths in pure, fresh air, and hears the dulcet tones of nature's silence, as opposed to the ground-level cave that the neo-Cons reside in, which has a limited visual perspective, an atmosphere vandalised by pollution, and noise levels that force its inhabitants to put their hands over their ears, which explains why they never listen to those above them in superior positions.

Preston the perspective mechanic

What a depressing history the USA has.

Firstly, many of their people hate woman perceived to be witches and go about slaughtering by methods of drowning.

Then it's the turn of the indigenous Indians and they are virtually extinguished (ethnic cleansing).

Then they focus thier hatred on the blacks and emasculate them.

Then it's the Communists.

Then Muslims.

Who next?

Themselves?

Is American democracy nothing other than the freedom to hate others? An inherent insecurity? A self-inflicted paranoia? Total intolerance?

The instances you mentioned above, (the witches and the indians) are the result of the English in the New World. Aren't you English? This ended because of immagrent who didn't see things the way the English did.

I don't think slavery came about because of hatred but of necessity of English immagrents who were horse farmers and paltation owners. Tragic but true. Also, don't think that pre-American Europe didn't enslave Asians long before America came to be.
You speak of Americans as strangers when in fact, the English helped create what we are today.

True, I am free to hate others. So what?
Insecure? I don't think so. Most feel we are arrogant. That doesn't come form insecurity but the opposite.

Communists? Good ridence!
Muslims? I think you mean Islamist fundamentalists.
Ourselves? There are few I dislike. Hate? Not really, it serves no purpose in this society.
Paranoid? Not since the sixties when there was a nuclear threat. Thank God communism is dead.
Intolerance? Right! That's why we are country of immagrents.

There is definitely widespread paranoia

I don't know if I'd call it intolerance per se, just ignorance of other cultures. It's very difficult for many Americans (some of my family included) to comprehend that some people think and live very very differently than we do, and more to the point, it is their God-given RIGHT to do so.

Conservatism is a cancer, to which there are very few cures.

My advice to all of the clever and liberal-minded Americans is begin leaving America now, for the future backlash from Arabs against America for the invasion of Iraq and continual support of Israel will be bloody.

I listened to BBC Radio 4 last night, and there was an interview with the editor of one of Egypt's largest newspapers, and this moderate Egyptian commentator said that he fears for America's future, for, according to this man, in his experience, he said that the current American government is the most HATED ever amid the people of the Middle East, claiming that 99% of all Arabs despise the US government for its approval of the illegal military invasion of Iraq, comparing it with Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine.

For all the Liberal and clever-minded Americans, exit America now, and let the remainder meet the voilence that awaits them, for thos proto-Christian, neo-Concervative and ultra-right wingers have no place in the real world (the world beyond their insular views).

Many people were sympathetic with the US on September 11th 2001. If it happened again, there would be hardly anybody who would care for America. In fact, a thousand September the 11ths wouldn't equal the deaths of innocents that the US military has inflicted upon other countries since WW2.

Read William Blum's book - "Killing Hope - US military and CIA interventions since WW2".

If only more Americans knew of their country's acts of terrorism.

To all those who support the illegal invasion of Iraq, why aren't you at the front line, where you belong? Volunteer now and do us all a favour.

Preston

Woolfe,

At last, you've made my point for me. Yes, the Eurpeans have had a chequered past, we admit to that in Europe (most of us, anyway), and now, the Americans are following in Europe's footsteps and becoming exactly the same (war-mongering and violent), the upshot being (and I have been trying to make this point for weeks), that the US is no worse than mainland Europe's sordid past, no better than mainland Europe's sordid past, but exactly the same! Hilarious. So, for God's sake, tell those empty-shelled Americans back home to stop saying "God Bless America" and other statements that seem to think that God would favour America over other countries.

Preston

Correct, extremism and the belief that on is RIGHT has nearly always been at the heart of worldly horrors.

Preston,
So your solution is to run away? Sounds about right coming from you.

USA1,I don't think Preston has ever run away from any argument, issue, situation. AS an outside observer, I've noticed that his ideas have dominated yours every time. He's right, you do make weird generalisations.

USA, I would gladly shove you in the front line in Iraq and watch you quiver, cry and splutter as the bullets came birding past your head. Somebody else said this today, but why aren't all the extremist, pro-Bush heads on the front line in Iraq fighting the invasion that they support? With luck, these extremists would do us all a favour and perish out there.

Woolfe, please, I was speaking figuritively.

Woofe, you ignored a valuable point that I was making. Why aren't those pro-invasion people queuing up to volunteer to go to Iraq? I would love to hear their views on warfare upon returning from such a death pit as Iraq. Their views on war would forever be different.

My point is that those who are so pro-war should see war (not just to fight in a war) but to observe war before making ridiculous gung-ho remarks about war. I never said they should fight, I said that I would like to see them at the front line in order to witness and feel the bullets flying about their persons. The front line does not necessarily mean battle. You have misinterpreted my words.

Of course, I would rather see people return from the "front line" in order to tell other people about the horrors of war in so far as it might encourage younger impressionable sorts to fully understand the horrors of warfare, which, hopefully, would inspire them to think properly about warfare before signing up to the armed forces on a whim.

Who are we fighting? Eurasia this year. Eastasia next year.

It's the same here. The difference is the patriotic influence from family members who were proud to serve before them.
Most are aware of the concequences of war. many are very versed on handlin weapons already so, it's not something new. We know it's not a game or to be taken lightly.

They advertise the different branches by appealing to all kinds of different people.
They've had commercials showing teens playing online war games (like XBOX live) against soldiers, with the soldiers kicking thier butts due to their training...
A kid who grows up with a hobby of remote control planes to be in the service flying remote controlled surveillance planes...
A teen who's camping with his family and dives without fear over a waterfall to retrieve his sister's backpack...

Military recruiters also lure enlistees into the service with promises of steady work, pay, room and board and of coarse the age old lie; "You'll get stationed wherever you want." Though rarely do the enlistees get to pick or choose about that. Here's some of the recruiting sites, take a look:
http://www.goarmy.com/index03.htm
http://www.navy.com/
http://www.airforce.com/events/calendar.htm?event=citb
http://www.marines.com/

Ahoy fellas, latest poll from the New York Times states that the support for the invasion of Iraq has fallen to an all-time low (47% in favour of the invasion).

Oh, and not to forget that the US military has just withdrawn from Fallujah and handed it over to an American-led Iraqi outfit, led by former Hussein military man - hilarious. It's a merry-go-round, and American ideology is flying off at every rotation.

The Americans'll be asking Hussein to come back and take control, seeing how the American military, with its heavy-handed approach, has just united former enemies in Iraq and alienated former friends.

If Vietnam wasn't a lesson to the Americans in meddling in other countries' affairs, then let's hope Iraq will be the final filling in the sandwich of worldly enlightenment.

now, if only the marines could fine evidence of WMD's.

damn us libs for requiring evidence before we "completely and utterly destroy all traces of lava monsters on the planet."

they pulled another marines commercial. it shows a line of marines jumping into an oversized meat grinder.

Boy, you guys on this board from Scottland are really waaaaayyyy out there.
I assume that Berwick-Upon-Tweed is Scottland right?
Do you even know what is going on in Iraq at all? Do you have any rational
thoughts?

USA1, what did you mean by your last post? Surely your news has illustrated how the US marines have pulled back from Fallujah in order to let a 1,100 man Iraqi regiment, led by a former Hussein military man, take control of Fallujah. Please tell me which part of my statement is false, because it has been printed in nearly all of our British papers and on the BBC and Channel 4 news. If you have not heard this information you are either living in a cave or are in a vacuum. Please explain what you mean.

Yeah, because if we wouldn't have stopped the Nazi's, we all be speaking German by now.

Curley clueless, America did not have imperialist governments prior to WW2.
Modern-day America has very few similarities to pre-WW2 America. In fact, the founding fathers would not recognise the imperialistic nature of the contemporary US regime. They would be disgusted with the last 50 years of US meddling around the globe.

Your rapacious appetite for oil underpins all of your foreign policy drives. The 1974 OPEC oil embargos on the US for supporting Isarel in the 1973 Arab/Israeli war (which left the America short of oil and resulted in queues at the petrol pumps) led Henry Kissenger to say in 1975, that all US foreing policy would be built around oil. He said that the US would never be held hostage by any oil-producing country again, and that the US would even go to war in order to secure the flow of oil to the US. Hence, you are the largest consumer of oil on the planet and this desire for oil has led to some of the USA's most barbaric pacts since WW2 (just check the USA's links with that butcher of Indonesia - Suharto - and this will be a good starting point. The USA traded arms for oil in Indonesia, US-sold arms that were used against the East Timorians (250,000) dead, just because they wanted independence from Indonesia.

Time for regime change in America.

http://www.inreview.com/showthread....973&forumid=371

Curley Clueless, instead of running away, which you seem to do an awful lot, challenge me on the 1975 Kissinger address, when he said that we (USA) must put oil at the heart of its foreign policy. Supply some facts (names, books and journals) to disprove my point. Most of your posts, I've noticed, are not supported by any third party references, mainly just your own subjective, constrained view.

And what he (Kissenger) meant was that we need to start looking at alternative energy sources, which we have.
Listen, America is so far ahead of Europe when it come to feul economy, you wil neve catch up. When we were adding emmision controls back in 1970, you guys were still gusling gas with no emissions and continued up until the late '90s.
While you have been using your oil, we've been stock piling it and conserving.
THe biggest problem we have is that we make way too much money and when gas is still under $2.00 a gallon, (That's right folks, under $2.00 a gallon) we will continue to own multiple cars and drive SUVs. Most don't care. Gas will have to get to $4.00 or $5.00 a gallon before the country sees a change in buying of efficiant vehicles.
Trust me! It's not about the oil. That is something you Europeans made up to try and make us into something we are not. Get over your jealousy, you will most likely never be an American anyway. Stay where you and live your life. We are living ours. You should only worry if we try to bomb Scottland for their Haggass.

Cargo, stop making this crap up ok. It's painful to watch you try to make us think you understand America.

Bush is just pandering to us when he mention's alternative engery sources. If the U.S. was really interested in alternative engery sources we would have them by now. The truth is that some people, (namely oil company's) have too much to lose for the U.S. to seriously use alternative energy sources. We will use oil until it is depleated and then and only then will the U.S. ever consider alternative energy sources. A source of energy that can be marketed.

To say that oil plays no part in U.S. decision making is ridiculous. Especially since the U.S. has given up drilling its own oil reserves.

Curley clueless, America did not have imperialist governments prior to WW2.

Ouch. You're calling HIM clueless? What an embarassing mistatement of historical fact. The period between roughly 1890 and 1930 was America's big experiment with European style colonialism. There was the Spanish-American War of 1898, where we took many of Spain's colonial holdings and made them into our own. There was Cuba, the Panama Canal, the Philipines, Puerto Rico, and later, China. If you want to argue that more recent conduct is "imperialism" in the broad sense of the word, that point can be debated on either side. I would argue that US conduct during the Cold War period was more about ideology than economics, though both played a role at times. Regardless, America's biggest period of imperialism was in fact the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Modern-day America has very few similarities to pre-WW2 America. In fact, the founding fathers would not recognise the imperialistic nature of the contemporary US regime. They would be disgusted with the last 50 years of US meddling around the globe.

Double ouch. Have you ever heard of the Monroe Doctrine? It was a speech given by President Monroe in 1823 that basically said we'll not colonize the Eastern Hemisphere if the Europeans (most particularly Spain) will stay out of the Western Hemisphere and leave it to us. The Doctrine is why we went to war with Spain in 1898.

I will try to say this in a nice way guy: I really just think you need to pick up even a high school level text book on American history before debating these points.

Your rapacious appetite for oil underpins all of your foreign policy drives. The 1974 OPEC oil embargos on the US for supporting Isarel in the 1973 Arab/Israeli war (which left the America short of oil and resulted in queues at the petrol pumps) led Henry Kissenger to say in 1975, that all US foreing policy would be built around oil. He said that the US would never be held hostage by any oil-producing country again, and that the US would even go to war in order to secure the flow of oil to the US. Hence, you are the largest consumer of oil on the planet and this desire for oil has led to some of the USA's most barbaric pacts since WW2 (just check the USA's links with that butcher of Indonesia - Suharto - and this will be a good starting point. The USA traded arms for oil in Indonesia, US-sold arms that were used against the East Timorians (250,000) dead, just because they wanted independence from Indonesia.

The words of one US Secretary of State during an energy crisis prove little if anything about what has motivated US foreign policy over a 50 year period. The motives are varied and complex. Each incident needs to be studied and analyzed.

Time for regime change in America.

Perhaps, but also time for a little more education among our European brethren.

- woolfe

Woolfe, I know ALL about the Monroe Doctrine, the Spanish/American war of 1898, Cuba, Indonesia etc. For God's sake, I was waiting for Curley Joe's reply as to just how much he knows about US history. Why did you say this for him? Next time, with respect, when I address Curley Joe directly, just wait until he's responded before you do. I am trying to garner the level of his knowledge. Do you really think I'd be so careless as to not know about the Monroe Doctrine. This is one of my pet subjects along with the history of Cuba.

Woolfe, I know ALL about the Monroe Doctrine, the Spanish/American war of 1898, Cuba, Indonesia etc. For God's sake, I was waiting for Curley Joe's reply as to just how much he knows about US history. Why did you say this for him? Next time, with respect, when I address Curley Joe directly, just wait until he's responded before you do. I am trying to garner the level of his knowledge. Do you really think I'd be so careless as to not know about the Monroe Doctrine. This is one of my pet subjects along with the history of Cuba.

USA1, and which book on Kissinger have you read? As to emmission controls in the 70s in the US, Europeans were driving around in cars with a engine capacity, on average, of 1.8 litres, as opposed to American cars, which probably doubled that European figure. Your pollution levels were higher; it was necessary for you to take such measures. Just think about it a little will you.

As for being jealous of the US, spare yourself the embarrassment. You just sound stupid when you say such things. We, Europeans, have a fantastic standard of living, and now that we have become the largest trading block in the world, you ought to think twice about you parachiol views. America would be the last place on earth I'd like to like.

Woolfe, with respect, there was no "historical misinformation" in my previous post. I merely based my argument on US imperialism from WW2 onwards, carefully omitting references to pre-WW2 US imperialism, hoping that Curley Joe would pull me up on post. I have no idea how much he knows about any subject that has been covered on this site because he either retorts with insults when he does not agree with mine and some other people's posts or responds with paraphrases from USA1, Devildog or Dekka00's posts, who he has some allegiances with.