Israel

Israel & Palestine Forum

1) Ignores Sanctions for 55 years

2) Has weapons of Mass destructions including nukes

3) Openly advocates torture to gain confessions.

4) Elects a Man responsible for killing innocents in Lebanon

5) Commits crimes against humanity by using tanks and helicopter gunships against civilian targets.

So when we going in ?

Operation Palestinian Freedom....

Israel is the spoiled American child, She just follow what has been tought to her by her farther: THE GREAT AMERICA.

Wrong forum I believe, since this forum is regarding Iraq....but, yet interesting perspective.

I don't know enough of the "entire" history to even speak or write on this....but is anyone? Can anyone say "who drew blood first"?

But who also commits crimes of killing innocent people....bombing schools, markets, buses loaded with children, restraunts, bars, clubs....the lists go on? Are these suicide bombings being commited also in the name of peace?

I want to know from someone who has knowledge...unbiased knowledge...who can date back to the beginning of all this and answer, definitively....who drew first blood?

Right, that was the wrong forum.

Yes Zid. I've been conducting some research about this too.
I don't know who drew the first blood but I know that the so called Palestinians came from Arab countries and have never lived in Palestine before. They came from Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia and so on and so forth... My guess is they didn't want Jews to live there, they wanted to gain the land instead, the tiny piece of land which is more than 200 times smaller than the whole Arab world. Another Arab state alongside the other 50 some Arab states, to increase the size of the arab world by 0.01% or the first State of the remaining Jews who have just survived the holocaust, and others who've started coming to Palestine in the ending of 19th Century?

That's right.
Marc and Saaiff, the palastinians came to Israel from all the countries anti-jihad had metioned and more, because no Arab country wanted them. Nobody blames those arab countries for throwing the palastinians out (and those ARE ARAB countries), but everyone are shouting at israel when Israel is simply defending herself.
You know what i think? The Arab countries around Israel can't attack it in a straight way because of all kinds of agreements, but we all know that they want the country for themselves and what is a better way to do it then to throw the palastinians in there and let them do the dirty work?
Besides, you all have your countries and your freedom, so why not let the Jews have their own place as well? The Arabs have so much space they don't know what to do with it.

Israel is terrorising a whole people. The world will wake up, including the U.S. Israeli policy is criminal, and will be seen for what it is. Remember this. The U.S. is liberating a people, while Israel is trying to displace another.

"I've been conducting some research about this too.
I don't know who drew the first blood but I know that the so called Palestinians came from Arab countries and have never lived in Palestine before."

What Authors? What Books? or is the research in the darkest corner of a racist mind? After the Romans forced the Jews into their diaspora very few Jews remained in the holy land. Other semitic groups excluded from the Jewish religion remained, namely the Philistines from where Palestinians and Palestine got its name.

"They came from Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia and so on and so forth...My guess is they didn't want Jews to live there, they wanted to gain the land instead, the tiny piece of land which is more than 200 times smaller than the whole Arab world."

Wrong again... Biblically the Philistines were there before the Jews and where there afterwards (If you read your bible its plain to see). As for the Jews not living there this also is not true... Since the year AD79 when the Romans pushed them out Jews have been migrating back to their ancient homeland and have lived peacefully until the Balfour declaration in 1917. Muslims and Jews have had no problems in that region until the push for a zionist homeland. In Muslim countries Judaism was unhindered for centuries.

"Another Arab state alongside the other 50 some Arab states, to increase the size of the arab world by 0.01%"

Irrelevant argument and rather stupid...


" or the first State of the remaining Jews who have just survived the holocaust, and others who've started coming to Palestine in the ending of 19th Century?"

Who committed the Holocaust? What part did the Palestinians play at Aushwitz or Belsen? If you want to creat a Jewish homeland carve out Bavaria or the Ruhr valley and make the guilty responsible for the burden.... But no in a typical fit of racist and economic bludgeoning punish another group... Oh and by the way most holocaust survivors moved to the US not Israel...

Please send me your home address as i want to come to your house, move in and kick you out... After all you seem to think that is reasonable behavior... In your book should the Iroquois claim New York... just curious...

Marc




[/B][/QUOTE]

I su

"Marc and Saaiff, the palastinians came to Israel from all the countries anti-jihad had metioned and more, because no Arab country wanted them. "

Wrong!!!

"Nobody blames those arab countries for throwing the palastinians out (and those ARE ARAB countries), but everyone are shouting at israel when Israel is simply defending herself."

There are Palestinians in every arab country in the middle east... Jordan is 75% Palestinian 25% Jordanian... Where are you getting your naive historical facts... the Ariel Sharon Weekly or something...

"You know what i think? The Arab countries around Israel can't attack it in a straight way because of all kinds of agreements, but we all know that they want the country for themselves and what is a better way to do it then to throw the palastinians in there and let them do the dirty work?"

It may be something to do with the Billion in grants and aid this country gives Israel every year... It may also be the fact we secretly gave them Atomic weapons... Suez Canal... 67 War... Yom Kippur war... How straight do you want it...

"Besides, you all have your countries and your freedom, so why not let the Jews have their own place as well? The Arabs have so much space they don't know what to do with it."

For one im Scottish so what is the "You all"... Secondly Why not give them Idaho or California instead... Matter of fact one not let them remain where they are but give back the land that the UN has told them to give back since 1967... or do we only invade counties with Petroleum oil who evade sanctions rather than olive oil...

Go read a book and learn something please...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by grets
[B] sindy, they do what they do because the ARE arab! u r correct- the arab countries are cowards and the palestinians are stupid, that great combination makes for trouble for israel. if they didn't have israel to fight with, they would turn on each other, as they have in the past. i think israel should not be so easy on them and forget world opinion. just make themselves secure and let the arabs do it to each other!

And you my friend are a blabbering fool who shouldnt be let near a keyboard... Easy on them... !!! You make me sick...

Marc, i don't have anything against you but a different opinion, but i think it's you who should read a book or two.

"biblically, the Philistines were there before the Jews and were there afterwards."
Where did you get this from? did you read whatever you did, carefully? have you heard what happened to those who lived in Palastine? Well, i'll tell you: When the Jews got out of Egypt and came to the promised land after 40 years, they found many small religions, very different from the Jews. Those religions had many gods and semi-gods such as Ashera or Baal. With time, those peoples perished\died\dissapeared - whatever you want to call it. Jewish kings then ruled over the land, until the Romans came and kicked them out. So you see, there's no way that the Arabs or Palastinians who live in Israel now are the same people who lived there before the Jews came. By the way, the Arabs were coming to Israel and living there only after Mohamed and there were no problems simply because there were much more Muslims and Christians.

And just a small advice for the future - if your saying something (such as "wrong") explain why you think that way or nobody would take your opinion seriously.

"Where did you get this from? did you read whatever you did, carefully? have you heard what happened to those who lived in Palastine? Well, i'll tell you: When the Jews got out of Egypt and came to the promised land after 40 years, they found many small religions, very different from the Jews. Those religions had many gods and semi-gods such as Ashera or Baal. With time, those peoples perished\died\dissapeared - whatever you want to call it. "

Entirely correct... Im wondering however what that has got to do with what i said? The Philistines were living in modern day gaza long before Joseph and his tribesman went to Egypt and continued to live there under Saul, Soloman and David... You seem to be confusing the difference between a race of people and a religion. The present day Palestinian Arabs may or may not be the decendents of the Philistines but that was the name given to that region and its people. A jew living in Jerusalem in 1945 was a Palestinian, As there was no Israel. Jews, Arabs, Ethiopians all share a common semitic ancestry and language. So Palestinians who lived there may be more related to the ancient Israelites than modern Israelis. This problem often occurs when the Jewish people are defined as a race rather than a religious group.


"Jewish kings then ruled over the land, until the Romans came and kicked them out. So you see, there's no way that the Arabs or Palastinians who live in Israel now are the same people who lived there before the Jews came."

Again your defining the Jews as some sort of race rather than a religion. The Romans didnt depopulise Israel they destroyed the state. Jews werent hounded onto ships by the romans and dispersed over Europe. There wasnt some vacuum where Israel once stood waiting for the Arabs to run in... The fact is that the people who were Jewish and who continued to live in that region converted to Christianity and then Islam. Genetically the Palestinians and the Judeans are the same people. Even their languages have a common root. The difference is the religion that they follow (and even that is similar)


"By the way, the Arabs were coming to Israel and living there only after Mohamed and there were no problems simply because there were much more Muslims and Christians."

I think you will find that at the time of Muhammad the people of that area converted to the religion of Islam and didnt flock northwards from Saudia Arabia or something... Again you think of the Arabs as a singular race when they are not... They are part of a group of people who have inhabited that area for thousands of years including Jews.

"And just a small advice for the future - if your saying something explain why you think that way or nobody would take your opinion seriously."

Im not here to win friends and influence people but to point out the innacuries of right wing religious bigots. I thought i did explain myself as i was refuting others... ah well...

Strange how we didn't hear the Palestinians claiming a homeland prior to 1967 when the West Bank was Jordanian and Gaza was Egyptian?

Strange how we didnt hear the Americans claiming a homeland in British North America till after the intolerable acts of 1774...

Personally i think they should ship you all back to where you came from... Land stealing immigrants...

rage- i'm indeed sorry you were offended. sometime, as you well know, one posts things to get a response. do i feel all arabs are cowards? not all! i do feel those that kill children, ordinary citizens, or cause injury to same are cowards. i do feel those arabs who refuse to condemn such acts are cowards. when all the indiscriminate killing stops and the people who committed such crimes are brought to justice by those who know such acts are wrong, then i'll be first in line to tell them they are heroes! when we watch people in the streets celebrating the deaths of people, what are we supposed to feel? when we see the butchery of arab dictators go unchallenged in the arab world, what do you want us to think? when we see arab nations pay for the homicide bombers to kill people, what exactly do you want us to believe?

Checkout http://www.uszionist.com it says it all.

rage- i indeed admire anyone, of any religion, race, or national origin, who makes any effort to make this a more sane and safe world. you must never give up on your efforts. if you are muslim and i christian, we can say we both feel there is a higher authority, a God, the same God, and we can build from there. that's all it takes is a starting point. we can start by introducing ourselves to each other- my name is jim, i was born and raised in the state of minnesota, i have served in a war, own my own business, work with children who have special needs, am married, have 2 grown children, one a wife and mother, one a trauma nurse, have 2 grandchildren, live in southern california, and i believe all people are born equal, some born into better circumstances than others, and believe that it is the job of each of us to make this world a better place to live for all of us. i hate no one. it is not part of my life!

rage- nice to meet you! it sounds like you are indeed a busy man. i wonder if you realize how much most americans want the israeli-palestinian problem to be solved. most people i talk to, and i talk to alot of people in my daily work, would like to see all the violence stopped. no one seems to take sides too much, oh, probably the israeli side more, but most don't understand and condemn to bombings of civilians. is it the desperate act of a people who feel there is no other way? or is it an unrealistic hate that people just won't give up? and why don't the arab states that have such wealth do something to help the palastinians? the only help we see being given is money for the bombers families. surely, saudi arabia could do so much more with its wealth. maybe bush's upcoming plan is not the answer, but since we haven't seen it, we don't know. but at least it is a plan, the first by an american president with the end result being, a palastinian state, governed by palastinians. yet , i hear condemnation from arabs. why? is there any other government bringing forth a plan? if so, what is it? in my eyes, i see other governments in the region wanting to keep the turmoil going. am i wrong? if you get a chance, try to enlighten me, ok. peace be with you my friend!

well, i could tell you of may knowlodge, but my knowledge will be quite subjective, do to my pro-israeli views. first of all, the israelies who came before 48, starting back at the 19 century, suffered greatly from the arabs. not only were they underprivilaged (the turks ruled israel back then), the arabs abused them, and i mea abuse in the full sense of the word. after a while, they grew quite fond of each other, and suprinsingly both sides bacme quite close. untill 48, when the state of israel was declared. they got barely half of the country. they were satisfied, but the arabs- were not. right after the decleation, lebanon and seria attacked. israel did not have time to rejoyce. as israel fought, with mere grenades and rusty guns, they conquered lots more of the country. hate stayd in the hearts of the arabs, and, well, the rest is history. i hope i clearyfied thing for you. if was happy to help. but again, that is my subjective knowledge, and that is what i learned. thank you

good day

Personally i think they should ship you all back to where you came from... Land stealing immigrants... [/B][/QUOTE]


i read the things you said untull now and respected them, for they made sence, even thought i am pro-israeli. but what you just said showd me how ignorant you are. well, sorry friend, you lost my vote. next time, try to be a little less abrupt, even if that's what you think.

i read the things you said untull now and respected them, for they made sence, even thought i am pro-israeli. but what you just said showd me how ignorant you are. well, sorry friend, you lost my vote. next time, try to be a little less abrupt, even if that's what you think. [/B][/QUOTE]


Hey Marcus,

You misunderstood the answer i think... My reply was to the American (i.e Americans should go back to where they come from) and was meant to be tongue in cheek. I am not Anti Israel as such. Although i believe that the land occupied by Israel shouldnt have been allowed i am realistic enough to know that its in the past and Israeli should be allowed there with full freedom and security guaranteed. However that does not give Israel in my opinion right to the land occupied since 1967 nor the right to attack civilians with F-16 and Abram tanks.

The vote thing is petty and childish and wouldnt influence my arguments one bit... I dont need acceptance and a pat on the back to think the way i do...

Marc

"you know, according to the bible, he who rises up to kill you, kill him before he gets a chance to do it (that's the jewish idiology, as appose to the christian "turn the other cheek", so when an israeli sodier (who carries an f-16, becuase rocks are so Passe') stands before an armed palastinian (and i don't mean armed with rocks, i mean armed with an uzi), he will, surprisingly enough, shoot the palastinian."

Marcus i think you miss my point (Hmm not for the first time i may add) My problem is the targetting of innocent civilians in Israel and the laissez faire attitude which surrounds it... If a soldier has someone point a gun and shoot at him of course he is going to open fire... If he has a nine your old throw a stone as he sits in a tank i assume he would use some restraint... I mean Abram tanks are build to withstand the power of rockets and shell but a piece of mortar or brick a 9 year old can through is a danger... Please

What kind of gun was the 4 month old Iman Hejjo using when her head was blown off...

Oh and a prominent zionist called Martin Luther King once said and eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. If you cant show compassion dont complain and whine when others dont show compassion to for you...



"oh, the humanity! c'mon, give me a break. this is war here, in the full meaning of the word, so how can they not shoot? think about it. thank you. good day [/B][/QUOTE] "

Im glad you think its war. That means Israel for her crimes against humanity should be pulled up for its war crimes... Israel doesnt even call it a war...

Tanks don't blow children up. Where exactly did you see that? I agree, a guy who sits in a tank isn't threatened by a kid, he's threatened by the explosive mines, but not the kids, therefore he won't just blow up a kid's head.

But soldiers that are outside tanks may become injured or in rare cases killed when Palestinian children throw rocks and molotov cocktails towards the soldiers.

In the last case for example, an IDF squad of jeeps were driving in the road and saw that the road was blockaded with stones. They went there to remove the stones and were suddenly attacked by Palestinians who put the stones there. The crowd mostly consisted of children and a Hamas activist , 24 years old. He ordered the crowd to throw stones at the soldiers and did so himself. The IDF force fired warning shots, then shot near the crowd to disperse it and after that, since it didn't help, they started shooting rubber bullets towards the crowd (not in the head). As a result 2 were killed - the Hamas activist and a 16 year old boy who was with this activist, but he was an activist from Fatah. Fatah and Hamas are two terrorist groups who have committed dozens over dozens of suicide bombings and shooting attacks towards Israeli civilians.

If you are against targeting innocent civilians, you should be against these groups, but then that would be going against most of Palestinians' opinions because statistics show that 60% of the Palestinian people support terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.

As far as im concerned Marcus Bush, Sharon and Arafat can all rot in the same cell forever...

The right measure to stop the conflict is isolation of one party from the other.

Arabs came to that land 1000 years ago during their expansion. They have all the rights to live in the place.

Get Arabs together within the UN drawn borders and the Jews within their borders. Build a wall between them prohibit people from both sides from any contact with each other.

A third party's military force is neccessary to keep the order - e.g. Chineese who seem not to have any interest to support either side.