who should pay Iraq's reconstruction? |
| Posted by: Enigma | | I think it should be a shared responsibility from those who are in a position to offer assistance. I think the US must have some kind of a role, to show that they do have the long term prosperity of the Iraqi people in mind, but I don't think it should only be them, and quite frankly, at this point in time the US couldn't afford to go it alone anyway. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: frenchfries | | pay the bill would mean encouraging USA in further wars, wouldn't it...? | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Enigma | | No, I don't think so. The US still has to shoulder the costs of the military campaign itself, and as I said, I think they should still be involved in the costs afterwards. The US simply cannot shoulder the entire burden itself though. If it is forced to, the Iraqi people will be severely disadvantaged, becuase the US will not be able to provide everything that is required to establish a stable country. There is no sence in causing even more troubles to the Iraqi people just to "teach the US a lesson". | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: frenchfries | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by Enigma
There is no sence in causing even more troubles to the Iraqi people just to "teach the US a lesson". |
I fully agree with you. Iraquis already enough suffered and need to be helped.
But I am afraid USA will say "we did the dirty job, now it's your shout. "
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| Posted by: liquidplumber | | the US has been working on the payment of reconstruction, our gov. is in process of allocating monies to pay for the war and reconstruction costs..
last I heard they were up to 80 billion dollars, some of which is to be used for reconstruction
also, in case anyone forgot, Iraq has oil, lots of it, and oil is a very valuable resource which can be used to pay for rebuilding as well as used for building wealth...
all any country needs is water and some product that can be sold to others to generate revenue....In the long term Iraq should become a very prosperous nation, and that wealth should be enjoyed by all iraqis' insted of just a select few, like that oil money is now....
i read somewhere( cant remember where) that saddam himself gets 40 million a day from oil revenues...that money could be used for many greater things than supporting saddams' palaces and keeping him living like a king.... | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: robert135 | | There are so many difficult issues after the regime change.
Here is an example of one that floored me with the complexity of it. I was watching a report on how the coalition forces are hiring Iraqi citizens to work as dock workers in the city if Um Casar. They said they were going to pay the guys $40 a month in pay. I about jumped out of my chair saying to myself, "You cheap bastards, there is no way we couldn't pay those guys much more than $40 a month, thats BS!"
Just as I thought that, the reporter echo'd that opinion then pointed out the issue. To the people of Um Casar at this time, $40 a month is a pretty good wage, but if they made it into a great wage, doctors, teachers, policemen, etc... would quit to become dock workers to make more money.
Once they pointed that out, it really sank in how complex it will be to get that country back into the land of the living. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: fred hooper | | Iraq is a secular society everywhere and probably the least religious state in the ME thankgod. Kurdistan has a very good government in place and I doubt the rest won't adjust. Iraq is a quite modern society brought down by Saddam.
One has to try fix it though and its no use running away from the problems anymore. An Iraqi consprict soldier earns $2 a month as well so most will be better off considering the Western world's wealth to make things better along with their own oil profits.
Things are going to work and the society with resources are there already.
Fred Hooper | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: scottc | |
| quote: |
the US has been working on the payment of reconstruction, our gov. is in process of allocating monies to pay for the war and reconstruction costs..
last I heard they were up to 80 billion dollars, some of which is to be used for reconstruction |
The total cost of war alone in the first year has been estimated at 200 billion dollars, without taking into account reconstruction. The total predicted cost of rebuilding by the end of the decade has been estimated at 2 Trillion dollars.
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also, in case anyone forgot, Iraq has oil, lots of it, and oil is a very valuable resource which can be used to pay for rebuilding as well as used for building wealth...
all any country needs is water and some product that can be sold to others to generate revenue....In the long term Iraq should become a very prosperous nation, and that wealth should be enjoyed by all iraqis' insted of just a select few, like that oil money is now....
i read somewhere( cant remember where) that saddam himself gets 40 million a day from oil revenues...that money could be used for many greater things than supporting saddams' palaces and keeping him living like a king.... |
Now that exactly answers the point. Iraq has oil, lots of it. So, given that it is the Americans that are going to be destroying their infrastructure, and given that it is the American companies that are going to be given the lucrative contracts to rebuild what they destroyed, (example in point, Halliburton, Dick Cheney's old company that is still paying him 1 million dollars a year), do you really think it is fair that the Iraqi's are the ones that will have to pay for it?. By giving the contracts to the very people that financed GW and his cronies in their quest for power, does that show you a president that gives a flying toss about the Iraqi people?.
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| Posted by: GuyFromPakistan | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by robert135
There are so many difficult issues after the regime change.
Here is an example of one that floored me with the complexity of it. I was watching a report on how the coalition forces are hiring Iraqi citizens to work as dock workers in the city if Um Casar. They said they were going to pay the guys $40 a month in pay. I about jumped out of my chair saying to myself, "You cheap bastards, there is no way we couldn't pay those guys much more than $40 a month, thats BS!"
Just as I thought that, the reporter echo'd that opinion then pointed out the issue. To the people of Um Casar at this time, $40 a month is a pretty good wage, but if they made it into a great wage, doctors, teachers, policemen, etc... would quit to become dock workers to make more money.
Once they pointed that out, it really sank in how complex it will be to get that country back into the land of the living. |
That's a very likely scenario, but here's a way out when you are dealing with these issues. You take the normal standard of living for a dock worker in your country...then you estimate how much the same living standard would cost in Iraq and then you pay them that wage, which is fair. However, if you do that and you find specialists leaving their jobs to work as dock workers, it's not an added complexity, it's an opportunity to judge the level of social injustice and compensate for the same on a broader scope.
Of course this doesn't apply to the temporary work force employed by the US for their army, this would apply to the post war reconstruction effort...
speaking of which, I think every penny of the reconstruction effort should come out of the USA and UK treasury. It would be a shame to let it go any other way. It would encourage destruction because there's no responsibility to rebuild.
And it's pretty clear that they are bombing baghdad so relentlessly only because they know they won't have to rebuild it...
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| Posted by: Enigma | | Baghdad won't need to be rebuilt after this, there'll merely be a few blocks of prime residential land right next to the water that are now vacant, and some really nasty potholes on the roads on the outskirts of the city. :P
Seriously though, the damage to Baghdad is farily localised on perticular areas. This isn't the kind of carpet bombing that we've seen occur in wars in the past. If you want to see what it really means to bomb a city, look into WWII. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Edward Teach | | I have heard this morning that the US and UK are proposing a United Nations Resolution to take control of Iraq's oil sell it and give ALL the money back to the Iraqi people. France said it would veto that resolution. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: liquidplumber | | the point that i was trying to make is that iraq has a way to sustain itself and make money for its citizens to boot
no one knows the actuall costs of war and reconstruction i was saying what has been tossed around in our legislature recently was 80 billion in immediate funds
as for your lucrative contracts idea, which is better, geting the oil flowing and bring in monies, or just leaving it lay in the ground, useless to iraq?
your bias against our leaders is apparent, and so i would expect that you subscibe to the "we want thier oil" theory
also, if the liberation of the iraqi people is meaningless to the US, why do we try with such great effort to only destroy what is absolutly nessecary?
our military has put itself in great danger just to avoid civilian casualties ,and the basics( electricity and water), have been mostly untouched so as NOT to disrupt any more than we have to....
nobody likes war, but to suggest that our leaders have started this in order to "get rich" is ill informed, biased, and simplistic in nature....also, dont you think that with all the power that out leaders weild, that they could have diverted money to themselves from our own goverment with much less effort, expediture, and loss of human life?....Its called "pork" here in the US and our goverment is overloaded with it, it would have been far easier to "get rich" through pork programs.... | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: GuyFromPakistan | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by Enigma
Baghdad won't need to be rebuilt after this, there'll merely be a few blocks of prime residential land right next to the water that are now vacant, and some really nasty potholes on the roads on the outskirts of the city. :P
Seriously though, the damage to Baghdad is farily localised on perticular areas. This isn't the kind of carpet bombing that we've seen occur in wars in the past. If you want to see what it really means to bomb a city, look into WWII. |
It's not just baghdad. Most people think it's only Baghdad, or a couple of other small cities that will need to be rebuilt.
When we talk about reconstruction it's a much broader issue. The first thing of course is the residential area and the water sources. The second task is the biggest problem. The fields and the agricultural channles.
Most of the rural population depends on small pieces of land for their sustainance. Take away half an acre from one farmer's land and his family will immediately go way below the poverty line, right down to starvation.
After the war these fields will be littered with:
1. landmines laid down by the retreating iraqi troops
2. munitions that didn't go off
3. toxins where some bomb or other explosive material went off
4. other hard to remove materials like spilled fuel from the convoys
Also the irrigation channles will need to be reworked. Miss one crop season in the cleanup process and you have another crisis on your hand. The landmines will take years to remove. The toxins from explosives will also take expensive sophisticated machinery to remove if you don't want the chemicals to make their way into the food chain (if somebody cares about that)
While you do this, you need to sustain the population almost entirely on your own resources.
Then you have to consider the generation that will go without sufficient infra structure for say 2-5 years. Schools will be out of the question for a while. Only the very basic of medical facilities. This can lead to problems in this generation in the longer run, which will cost the country sooner or later...add to this the various psychological effects of the war on the population.
All of this falls within the scope of the reconstruction effort...it's a multi trillion dollar effort...let's be realistic about what a war does to a country and let's face it
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| Posted by: GuyFromPakistan | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by Ron Ackerman
I have heard this morning that the US and UK are proposing a United Nations Resolution to take control of Iraq's oil sell it and give ALL the money back to the Iraqi people. France said it would veto that resolution. |
let's not play United Nations Resolutions games anymore...
no one likes those jokes
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| Posted by: GuyFromPakistan | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by liquidplumber
if the liberation of the iraqi people is meaningless to the US, why do we try with such great effort to only destroy what is absolutly nessecary?
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I think you are taking a naive approach to this War...it's a War...in a war you destroy whatever comes in your way...all the information you need to destroy a multi million dollar shopping complex for example, is a report by one of your soldiers that some suspicious characters were seen peeking through the 5th story windows...
More than half of Baghdad has been destroyed by "selective bombing". Take a look at the areial photograghs published after every bombing. You need to realize also that the city you are talking about is not a town...it's a megapolis with originally about 6 million inhabitants. With this kind of density, every bomb destroys something essential to the infrastructure...consider for example a simple crack in the underground waterline...ten foot deep and hidden away, that starts leaking and causing sewage leakage to get mixed into drinking water. And causing damage in 20 different blocks of the city for decades before it's discovered. These are common scenarios in war towns...
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| Posted by: Edward Teach | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by GuyFromPakistan
I think you are taking a naive approach to this War...it's a War...in a war you destroy whatever comes in your way...all the information you need to destroy a multi million dollar shopping complex for example, is a report by one of your soldiers that some suspicious characters were seen peeking through the 5th story windows...
More than half of Baghdad has been destroyed by "selective bombing". Take a look at the areial photograghs published after every bombing. You need to realize also that the city you are talking about is not a town...it's a megapolis with originally about 6 million inhabitants. With this kind of density, every bomb destroys something essential to the infrastructure...consider for example a simple crack in the underground waterline...ten foot deep and hidden away, that starts leaking and causing sewage leakage to get mixed into drinking water. And causing damage in 20 different blocks of the city for decades before it's discovered. These are common scenarios in war towns... |
HALF???? Not hardly. Unless Saddams palaces and the government buildings consisited of half the city. You are talking about a city of over 5 million people. The images we see from Al-Jazeera and Abu Dabi TV certanly don't show that and even Iraq doesn't state that. So I don't know where you are getting your information but it is wrong and you shouldn't trust it.
Also your approach to this war is incorrect. If it was destroy everything in your path then why aren't all the rest of the cities just piles of rubble. So your assumptions are incorrect. War has changed, this war is different than any other war in history. We don't want to destroy everything because then we would have to rebuild it after the war.
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| Posted by: scottc | |
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| also, if the liberation of the iraqi people is meaningless to the US, why do we try with such great effort to only destroy what is absolutly nessecary? |
Such as the "absolutely necessary" market place?. The US is treading a fine political minefield, and they are making a great effort to convince CNN and other international organisations that they are staying away from any civillian targets. If you really believe that in a war whereby "cluster bombs" are dropped in an area as densely populated as Baghdad, that innocent civillians and civilian homes will not be destroyed, then CNN is doing its job very well.
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| as for your lucrative contracts idea, which is better, geting the oil flowing and bring in monies, or just leaving it lay in the ground, useless to iraq? |
And what a coincidence that the very company giving 1 million dollars PA to Cheney is the one company, of all of the reconstruction companies in the world that is chosen to "save the Iraqi's economy". If the saving of the Iraqi economy is so high on the list of the administration, then why not give the jobs to Iraqi's. Give them the materials and cash needed, and not to an American corporate giant.
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your bias against our leaders is apparent, and so i would expect that you subscibe to the "we want thier oil" theory
also, if the liberation of the iraqi people is meaningless to the US, why do we try with such great effort to only destroy what is absolutly nessecary?
our military has put itself in great danger just to avoid civilian casualties ,and the basics( electricity and water), have been mostly untouched so as NOT to disrupt any more than we have to....
nobody likes war, but to suggest that our leaders have started this in order to "get rich" is ill informed, biased, and simplistic in nature....also, dont you think that with all the power that out leaders weild, that they could have diverted money to themselves from our own goverment with much less effort, expediture, and loss of human life?....Its called "pork" here in the US and our goverment is overloaded with it, it would have been far easier to "get rich" through pork programs.... |
I do not like GW Bush's policies, as a result of studying them closely. My "Ill informed, biased and simplistic views" come as a result of facts and recent history. Where do your "Ill informed, biased and simplistic views" come from?. Look at the most recent history. Look at Afghanistan. They are now "liberated". Well joy for them, since liberation now means they no longer have any houses as they have been bombed by the Americans. Wanna know how much rebuilding aid was given to Afghanistan in Bush's budget. Zero. Wanna know what was the FIRST thing built after the Afghan war?, it was not the people's houses, it was an oil pipeline.
The point is not about them personally getting rich. (Although that is a very nice sideline). It is about acting in the interests of the American corporate giants. These same American corporate giants are the people that keep the politicians in power.
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| Posted by: Edward Teach | | It is entirely possible that the bombing of the Market Place's were the result of Iraqi anti Aircraft missiles. You know when they shoot those things in the air and they don't hit anything what happens to them? They fall back to earth.
On your second point. They are already giving jobs to the Iraqi people in Um Qasar in the humanitarian relief efforts.
And your third point. You may not like GWB's policies but hey in American that is your right. You don't have to agree. I don't agree with Saddams policies or Frances policies. As far as Afghanistan It was a very nice place under the King however under the Talaban all those nice places were destroyed. The Talaban converted the football stadium into a public execution area. They destroyed ancient shrines. If you think that the Bush Administration is not giving to the Afghanistan's then you aren't looking.
I think your hatered for our President and the US has blured your vision as to the good that is being done. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: GuyFromPakistan | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by Ron Ackerman
It is entirely possible that the bombing of the Market Place's were the result of Iraqi anti Aircraft missiles. You know when they shoot those things in the air and they don't hit anything what happens to them? They fall back to earth.
On your second point. They are already giving jobs to the Iraqi people in Um Qasar in the humanitarian relief efforts.
And your third point. You may not like GWB's policies but hey in American that is your right. You don't have to agree. I don't agree with Saddams policies or Frances policies. As far as Afghanistan It was a very nice place under the King however under the Talaban all those nice places were destroyed. The Talaban converted the football stadium into a public execution area. They destroyed ancient shrines. If you think that the Bush Administration is not giving to the Afghanistan's then you aren't looking.
I think your hatered for our President and the US has blured your vision as to the good that is being done. |
Two things to consider:
do you know how big those things are? you don't fire a cruise to bring down a cruise...you fire somethingsmaller...like a patriot...something that is faster...small...the thing that fell down on the market couldn't have been a patriot...or even a scud...did you see the images of the market?
another thing to consider...supposing that it was in fact a patriot type thing (iraq doesn't have anything that fast). why was it fired in the first place? would they be firing these things if USA was sitting at home? no...so eventually whatever happens during a war is part of what happens in a war...and these things always happen in a war...
as for your arguments about USA doing good things to the world, please ask your president to do the same good things in Israel and Russia. I'd love to see how you guys rebuild after that...
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| Posted by: Edward Teach | |
| quote: |
Originally posted by GuyFromPakistan
Two things to consider:
do you know how big those things are? you don't fire a cruise to bring down a cruise...you fire somethingsmaller...like a patriot...something that is faster...small...the thing that fell down on the market couldn't have been a patriot...or even a scud...did you see the images of the market?
another thing to consider...supposing that it was in fact a patriot type thing (iraq doesn't have anything that fast). why was it fired in the first place? would they be firing these things if USA was sitting at home? no...so eventually whatever happens during a war is part of what happens in a war...and these things always happen in a war...
as for your arguments about USA doing good things to the world, please ask your president to do the same good things in Israel and Russia. I'd love to see how you guys rebuild after that... |
They are still investigating the bombings of the Market Places so we don't know for sure. CentCom said that they have accounted for all the smart weapons used in Baghdad. Maybe you didn't the pictures of all the firing into the sky. And maybe you have heard of the accounts of Saddams cronies firing on his own people and maybe you haven't heard about him bombing his own buildings to try and make it look like we did it.
This thread isn't about Israel or Russia it's about Iraq and Bush IS doing something about Israel and Palistine.
So your arguments don't hold water.
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| Posted by: Edward Teach | | Hey GuyFromPakistan
Are you Muslim, can you help me understand what a Fatwah is. Does it have to come from a Muslim Cleric? | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: mtliveingtree | | help rebuild iraq with the millions saddam has in his accounts all over the world, it was the iraqi peoples money not saddams. Also any other country involved in this war and any country that can. And im sure as you all seem to keep putting isareal down but once this war is done im sure they will be there first like in the past for other countrys they have helped. | | Reply To this Message
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Post-9/11 Era Forum: who should pay Iraq's reconstruction?
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