The rebuttal of Anti-Zionist's signature.

Israel & Palestine Forum

Please, only reply after reading all of the article. The title is meant to shock

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/p...RTICLE_ID=28222

And the golden part? This article was written by Joseph Farah, an Arab. Perhaps Anti-Zionist will add that quote by PLO member Zahir Muhsein to his signature? Nah, I doubt it

Okay, so Arab refugees begun identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people.

SO WHAT??

It's like saying that all American immigrants that let's say originated from India or wherever aren't really "American" despite living there and being called an American.

So what if some of the Palestinians aren't the guys who were ethnically cleansed? This gives Israel no right to treat them like ****. And you must remember that there are still loads of Palestinians who were genuinely chucked out of their homes.

Who are palestinians exactly? When did Palestine exist? When did Israel occupy any land owned by ANYBODY?

Who owned the lands now occupied by israelis and 'palestinians'? Certainly not the same people who live there now.

Remember israel captured territories after wars with arab coalitions, but there was no sovereign palestine state. Deserts with no government, no constant residents, no army, no society, are declared to be 'oppressed' nation.

The Palestinian people are a nationality, just like I am English and you are mostly Americans. Palestine existed pre-1948 for 2000 years. And whose to say that their not the same people who lived there lets say one thousand years ago? And even if they're not, so what? You think you're great-great-great-gr-gr-gr-gr-gr-gr-gr grandfather was an American??

No, there is not such nationality 'palestinian'. People who are calling themselves palestinians were beduin arabs prior to 40s-50s. Didn't you know that?

Thats the thing anti-zionist. Before all of those Arab refugees came in, there was no such thing as a Palestinian. The term was never used to describe an arab.

What does is matter if they were Palestinians back then or not, What does it matter if their wasnt a Palestine back then or not? These people are humans just like us, and they got robbed of their land, and kicked out illegaly.

TWBR but it wasn't their land! Deserts could be mine as well if i was riding my camel around it. I can go to Sahara right now and claim that some portion of it is mine - lets say, i declare myself to be 'inreviewevian' and new nation 'Inreview'. Then africans who lived there 2000 years ago come and say, "hey, this is mine, gimme some of it and we can live together. i will even pay you money for MY land." Who is the occupier now, me (arabs) the guest or africans (jews) the natives?

Why aren't jews supposed to have their own country? Why do they have to live all over the world, why dont they have their HOME? I strongly support the idea of a country for each nationality, where this nation's culture and other properties can be developed....

No, no, no! Of course there was such a thing as Palestinians! Of course it wasn't used to describe an Arab merkava, it was used to describe the Arabs that were living in Palestine! All Palestinians were Arabs, but not all Arabs were Palestinians.

There was no Palestine and there is no Palestine, period. Palestine never existed, neither under Jordan's nor Israel's rule.

If you like to call empty territories "Palestine" and occasional beduin travellers "palestinians", it's your problem, not mine.

Your not going anywhere by saying that there was no Palestine, give up.
Continue to make those false statements and God will punish you.

TWBR said this in post #12 :

Yeah it is their land,

No it's not.

a lot of things happened there for them to hold on to it, like when Prophet Muhammad ( pbuh ) accended into heaven, this is where Prophet Jesus ( pbuh ) was born, this land was owned by Muslims longer than the jews.

I dont believe neither in Muhammad nor in Jesus, sorry. And jews lived there long time ago and they have their holiest sites in Israel.

You cant just go into a land, kick out its owners,

Who were the owners? Beduins? No. Arab countries like Jordan? Yes, but it doesn't make Palestine a state either. Who owned these lands prior to Israel? Answer: nobody.

and make it into a country, but in this cause, that land was already a country,

No it wasn't. Learn some history.

deny it as much as you want, you wont go anywhere.

There never was Palestine sovereign (or not) state and there never were "palestinians" being a distinctive nationality.

Why dont just arabs and jews live in peace? What do they need the land for if the killings go on everyday?

Especially when they are so closely related.

What do you mean 'i am not going anywhere'? There was no Palestine, NEVER. Period.

"God will punish you"
How old are you?

Exactly - i mean, arabs and israelis are very close ethnically - they were brothers and sisters long time ago.

You know why i dont believe in ANY religion? Because it caused more death and violence than anything else. One of the many examples is the Mid East conflict, also the Christian wars and inquisition, etc. I prefer to have my own understanding of what is right and what is wrong - lemme put it this way: both Bible and Quran consist of two parts - moral and the story, the tale. I dont believe in tale, however the moral, the phylosofy has a lot for people to learn. That's where the message is sent - do not kill, do not steal, do not lie - and where life's textbook is.

Tell me, how is Islam and Christianity causing deaths?

Well Islam is - just look at how many terrorists there are e.g. al queda, you're saying that this isn't religious hatred?

I think you've been brought up very biased. Your a muslim whose parents are Palestinians. I agree with you mostly, Israel are in the wrong, however you do go too extreme sometimes.

Christianity has gone thru it already. Now it's Islam's turn.

Christian world found it's way thru itself. Muslim doesnt seem to be able to. That's why we have to intrude from the outside to boost changes.

Now hold on a minute, why is that when an Arab like Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, attacks, they are called Muslim Terrorists and people blame it on Islam, but when that guy who was responsible for the Oklahoma city bombing wasnt classified as a Christain ( maybe hes Catholic or Jewish ) Killer and people didnt put blame on Christianity?
Islam doesnt not ask for war or hatred on any race out there, all that crap that you hear from the television is crap, Islam teaches us to love our enemies, ONLY KILL FOR SELFDEFENSE, nowhere in the Quran it says to go into a bus and blow ur self up and kill people, Islam condems suicide.

Exactly, just like the Iraq War - a war which was clearly justified legally and morally.

Never has Judaism done that though.

TWBR I am originally muslim, i know this stuff. That's my point - inverted understanding of religion, not religion itself, causes hatred and violence.

Tell me in which way was 9/11 an act of self-defense? What about arab suicide bombers, how were they hurt by ordinary israelis whom they kill everyday?

I dont classify the Israeli's are REAL followers of Judaism, why because they kill, well not all Israeli's only the bad ones.

TWBR, what the **** are you going on about? You don't classify Israelis as real followers of Judaism?

You fool, there are nearly as many non-jewish israelis as there are jewish israelis. You really do prove your ignorance sometimes, which is a shame because you have the right idea...

So you think i support Osama? Or maybe i think Islam says it's ok to kill people?

And i repeat for the 100th time, I DO NOT WATCH CNN. Neither i watch BBC, nor FOX. IS IT UNDERSTANDABLE OR NOT?

I prefer canadian channels, like CBC. They have pretty independent coverage with both sides of the conflict - whatever it is - expressing their views and opinions.

When i said, Israelis, i meant Jewish Israelis, sorry for the misunderstading.

Okay then, I accept your mistake.

1) Jews aren't saying that the creation of Israel went against the Torah, but that it goes against the Torah to create Israel NOW, before the coming of the Messiah. Incidentally, do Muslims believe that a Messiah will come?

2) Yes but they have killed Palestinians in a war. For example, in the Torah the Jews have to go through many wars whilst in Israel, and God gives them permission to.

1) Jews aren't saying that the creation of Israel went against the Torah, but that it goes against the Torah to create Israel NOW, before the coming of the Messiah. Incidentally, do Muslims believe that a Messiah will come?

Yeah thats what i meant, before the Messiah could come was not right to make Israel,
Muslims belive that Jesus was the Messiah , but he was not the Son of God, no one will ever be the son of God according to Islam.

2) Yes but they have killed Palestinians in a war. For example, in the Torah the Jews have to go through many wars whilst in Israel, and God gives them permission to.

Well the massacres and the intentionaly killings of Palestinian civilians cant be classified as casualties of a war.

Like in Islam, you can defend your self by killing someone else, Suicide Bombing is not like that, Suicide Bombing is more complicated and Muslims arent sure if Islam approves of it, since the situacion the Palestinians are in right now.

How can anybody approve of suicide bombings? They are inhumane and kill innocent civilians.

And Jesus wasn't the Messiah in Islam, sorry but my best mate is Muslim and he says this is a load of nonsense. In Islam Jesus was a prophet, it is Christianity that sees him as the ultimate messiah.

Thats why im saying, Suicide Bombing is more complicating, i say its not supported, but based on the situacion, its very complicated, its fair enough to say that its terrorism, but to God, we dont know what are his views about it.

Jesus ( pbuh ) was the Messiah in Islam, The Messiah of the Jews ofcorse, not ours, we have Prophet Muhammad ( pbuh ) as our supreme Messenger of God.
Tell ur mate to read the Quran.

He's very religious, and he knows his stuff when it comes to Islam and religion. Perhaps you don't know the definition of Messiah. Perhaps in Islam you don't believe in a Messiah. In Islam, Jesus was a prophet. Christianity is the religion that believes he was the Messiah!

According to all my sources, Mohammed prophecised in the coming of a Messiah. It is also interesting to note that the ahmaddiyat community in Islam regard Ahmed as a Messiah who may return.

By the way, TWBR could you tell me a bit about the different sects in Islam and their differences, e.g. the two types that apparently Al Queda have been trying to make a civil war between in Iraq, and Ahmaddiyat.

There are 2 different secs in Islam, this is creating a lot of violence in Iraq, There are the Sunni Muslims, who belive that Prophet Muhammad was the last messenger from God, and theres the Shia Muslims who belive that there was a Prophet after Muhammad, this belief that there was another Prophet after Muhammad ( pbuh ) goes againts Islam, So the Sunni Extremists are killing the Shia Muslims ( ofcorse the Sunni Extremists are going to hell. Islam condems killing of anykind ).

In Islam Jesus was the Messiah of the Jews, dont belive me?
www.JesusWillReturn.com , read it.

Okay, don't take it up with me I'm only repeating what I have been told.

So what are the Ahmaddiyat community in Islam? And are there more Shia or Sunni Muslims?

Theres more Sunni Muslims, which is the right side.

In 1947, TWBR, there were no Palestinians. Did i make myself clear or not?

No you did not make your self clear and i will not waste my time, beliving your garbage.

Of course there were Palestinians in 1947!! What's wrong with you? You are actually denying the very existence of a coutry! There was a country called Palestine for 2000 years, so naturally the inhabitants of this country were called Palestinians! Duuh.

I dont think that Palestine became a country until the early 1900s, but since it came to exsistince yea you can say that land Palestine exsisted for 2000 years, also, in Dictionarys Palestine is called the Holy Land and not Israel.

TWBR Palestine HAS been going for 2000 years! It has been called Palestine for ages, previously it was Canaan, then Palestine, then Israel, then Judah, Judea and then 2000 years ago renamed as Palestine. Naturally, the inhabitants thus became known as "Palestinians."

Yeah true

Don't listen to the brainwashed fools TWBR! Palestine HAS been a country for thousands of years, find a book that dates pre-1948 and this will be proven.