President Calls for Constitutional Amendment Protecting Marriage |
| Posted by: Kookaburra | | Reference: White House
Remarks by the President
The Roosevelt Room
10:43 A.M. EST
THE PRESIDENT: Good morning. Eight years ago, Congress passed, and President Clinton signed, the Defense of Marriage Act, which defined marriage for purposes of federal law as the legal union between one The Act passed the House of Representatives by a vote of 342 to 67, and the Senate by a vote of 85 to 14. Those congressional votes and the passage of similar defensive marriage laws in 38 states express an overwhelming consensus in our country for protecting the institution of marriage.
In recent months, however, some activist judges and local officials have made an aggressive attempt to redefine marriage. In Massachusetts, four judges on the highest court have indicated they will order the issuance of marriage licenses to applicants of the same gender in May of this year. In San Francisco, city officials have issued thousands of marriage licenses to people of the same gender, contrary to the California family code. That code, which clearly defines marriage as the union of a man and a woman, was approved overwhelmingly by the voters of California. A county in New Mexico has also issued marriage licenses to applicants of the same gender. And unless action is taken, we can expect more arbitrary court decisions, more litigation, more defiance of the law by local officials, all of which adds to uncertainty.
After more than two centuries of American jurisprudence, and millennia of human experience, a few judges and local authorities are presuming to change the most fundamental institution of civilization. Their actions have created confusion on an issue that requires clarity.
On a matter of such importance, the voice of the people must be heard. Activist courts have left the people with one recourse. If we are to prevent the meaning of marriage from being changed forever, our nation must enact a constitutional amendment to protect marriage in America. Decisive and democratic action is needed, because attempts to redefine marriage in a single state or city could have serious consequences throughout the country.
The Constitution says that full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts and records and judicial proceedings of every other state. Those who want to change the meaning of marriage will claim that this provision requires all states and cities to recognize same-sex marriages performed anywhere in America. Congress attempted to address this problem in the Defense of Marriage Act, by declaring that no state must accept another state's definition of marriage. My administration will vigorously defend this act of Congress.
Yet there is no assurance that the Defense of Marriage Act will not, itself, be struck down by activist courts. In that event, every state would be forced to recognize any relationship that judges in Boston or officials in San Francisco choose to call a marriage. Furthermore, even if the Defense of Marriage Act is upheld, the law does not protect marriage within any state or city.
For all these reasons, the Defense of Marriage requires a constitutional amendment. An amendment to the Constitution is never to be undertaken lightly. The amendment process has addressed many serious matters of national concern. And the preservation of marriage rises to this level of national importance. The union of a man and woman is the most enduring human institution, honoring -- honored and encouraged in all cultures and by every religious faith. Ages of experience have taught humanity that the commitment of a husband and wife to love and to serve one another promotes the welfare of children and the stability of society.
Marriage cannot be severed from its cultural, religious and natural roots without weakening the good influence of society. Government, by recognizing and protecting marriage, serves the interests of all. Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife. The amendment should fully protect marriage, while leaving the state legislatures free to make their own choices in defining legal arrangements other than marriage.
America is a free society, which limits the role of government in the lives of our citizens. This commitment of freedom, however, does not require the redefinition of one of our most basic social institutions. Our government should respect every person, and protect the institution of marriage. There is no contradiction between these responsibilities. We should also conduct this difficult debate in a manner worthy of our country, without bitterness or anger.
In all that lies ahead, let us match strong convictions with kindness and goodwill and decency.
Thank you very much.
END 10:48 A.M. EST | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: outsider | | "My administration will vigorously defend this act of Congress. "
He never said HE would do this. That would be the end of his political career. He won't take responsibility for this act personally. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: gaboman | | I say hire Kevin Costner to act as marriage's bodyguard, Mr. Bush. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: outsider | | Kevin Costner? Gabo, we already have too many actors in politics.  | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: gaboman | | gotta agree with that... The best ones haven't even been in a production of any sort before just very very very good actors...
It's obvious this guy has no respect for Homosexuals, how can he talk about kindness and goodwill. It's like smiling at someone while you slash their stomach open and spill their intestines....
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| Posted by: mystic | | Geez...I think our Prez forgot to state this fact: California has the Equal Protection Clause! The US Constitution has the 14th Amendment!
The California Constitution says, "A person may not
be deprived of life, liberty or property without due
process of law or denied equal protection of the laws ."
The United States Constitution, in the 14th Amendment, likewise says that every one of us is entitled to "equal protection of the laws."
Notice the word EQUAL in both???
Certainly that must mean something!
Its hilarious to think that all people are equal under the law...but some exceptions to the rule are made because of "personal" beliefs.
What a joke!
Equal means equal.....there is no other way around it. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: gaboman | | No, no, Mystic, equal means equal*
*note: equal may not mean exactly equal, but kind of equal, depending on the Government's mood and who is in charge at any particular time. Further more, equality may be defined, however in practice it, in most cases, will not actually work out that way. However we will be polite while trying to push our very loose version of equality on the public. Please enjoy.
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| Posted by: chelktty | | LMAO Gabo! I like how you put the disclaimer in tiny small print! | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Kookaburra | | [QUOTE]mystic said this in post #6 :
The California Constitution says, "A person may not
be deprived of life, liberty or property without due
process of law or denied equal protection of the laws ."
I wonder if "process of law" is defined as a mayor breaking the laws and not implementing his agenda through the court system, which forces the President and all the states to take action because someone decided to violate the laws put in place by the MAJORITY.
But of course, we know if anyone was violated of their rights to due process since it never made it to court to fight this in an honorable way. Instead the mayor hands out licences against the law.
I wonder how the majority of people feel when we vote something into laws but they are violated as if our votes don't count. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: chelktty | |
| quote: |
mystic said this in post #6 :
Geez...I think our Prez forgot to state this fact: California has the Equal Protection Clause! The US Constitution has the 14th Amendment!
The California Constitution says, "A person may not
be deprived of life, liberty or property without due
process of law or denied equal protection of the laws ."
The United States Constitution, in the 14th Amendment, likewise says that every one of us is entitled to "equal protection of the laws."
Notice the word EQUAL in both???
Certainly that must mean something!
Its hilarious to think that all people are equal under the law...but some exceptions to the rule are made because of "personal" beliefs.
What a joke!
Equal means equal.....there is no other way around it.
You're dead on Mystic!
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| Posted by: gaboman | | Perhaps doing what is right is better than doing what is expected of us, sometimes. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: mystic | |
| quote: |
Kookaburra said this in post #9 :
[QUOTE]mystic said this in post #6 :
The California Constitution says, "A person may not
be deprived of life, liberty or property without due
process of law or denied equal protection of the laws ."
I wonder if "process of law" is defined as a mayor breaking the laws and not implementing his agenda through the court system, which forces the President and all the states to take action because someone decided to violate the laws put in place by the MAJORITY.
He stated his views on the matter. Laws are interpreted, and in this case he saw that California's Equal protection law was first and foremost in this case. This happens EVERYDAY! Laws in some states are interpreted differently than in others. Get used to it....happens all the time. And in this case, he interpreted to mean everyone RIGHTS come first.....
Breaking the law? I dont think so. Interpreting the law is a more accurate assessment.
But of course, we know if anyone was violated of their rights to due process since it never made it to court to fight this in an honorable way. Instead the mayor hands out licences against the law.
There's that statement again..."against the law"
FACT: Laws may be declared unconsitutional if they violate ANY of the following: 1. Any dictate of the main body of the federal Constitution, ANY federal consitution amendments, ANY provision of the consitution of the individual states.
Sounds to me that this "silly" law in the codes of the states stating only man and woman marriages violates all these factors, and can therefore be seen as unconstitutional..
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Also I should note that if the federal code that states this...is contradictive to everything that states that it is unconsitutional to put forth that provision especially when it is noted that ANY law is unconstitutional under the conditions I listed.
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| Posted by: mystic | |
| quote: |
Kookaburra said this in post #1 :
The Constitution says that full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts and records and judicial proceedings of every other state. Those who want to change the meaning of marriage will claim that this provision requires all states and cities to recognize same-sex marriages performed anywhere in America. Congress attempted to address this problem in the Defense of Marriage Act, by declaring that no state must accept another state's definition of marriage. My administration will vigorously defend this act of Congress.
Yet there is no assurance that the Defense of Marriage Act will not, itself, be struck down by activist courts. In that event, every state would be forced to recognize any relationship that judges in Boston or officials in San Francisco choose to call a marriage. Furthermore, even if the Defense of Marriage Act is upheld, the law does not protect marriage within any state or city.
For all these reasons, the Defense of Marriage requires a constitutional amendment. An amendment to the Constitution is never to be undertaken lightly. The amendment process has addressed many serious matters of national concern. And the preservation of marriage rises to this level of national importance. The union of a man and woman is the most enduring human institution, honoring -- honored and encouraged in all cultures and by every religious faith. Ages of experience have taught humanity that the commitment of a husband and wife to love and to serve one another promotes the welfare of children and the stability of society.
[/B] |
I was thinking abot this...and I find it interesting that this supposed "law" you keep referring to that you say has been broken...isnt even a constitutional law.
Bush is TRYING to make it into one..and for the very reason that as of now it is unconstitutional to say that gay marriage shouldnt happen.
He specifically said: Congress attempted to address this problem in the Defense of Marriage Act, by declaring that no state must accept another state's definition of marriage. My administration will vigorously defend this act of Congress.
What I get from this is that this is up to the state. And again it all comes down to the Equal Protection Law and the 14th Amendment.
Ill say it again...
Laws may be declared unconsitutional if they violate ANY of the following:
1. Any dictate of the main body of the federal Constitution,
2 . ANY federal consitution amendments and....
3 . ANY provision of the consitution of the individual states.
Under just 2 and 3 alone, that mayor had very right to view that the code that says that marriage only is only to be between man and woman is a violation of the equal rights of gays.
He isnt breaking any laws...as a matter of fact he seems to be the one person that is obeying the very fact that the law is unconstitutional, whereas others are trying to pretend that the fact I presented doesnt exist, which it does.
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| Posted by: Kookaburra | | In your 1. 2. 3. postings then, it is a violation of our rights to ban Bibles in schools, courts and other public places because it takes our rights away from us as well.
Therefore, how about everyone who wants to make a statement just take Bibles to school, pray before classes, pray before games, take a Bible to court, talk about God wherever and whenever they want... etc.
After all, the rights were taken away and people ought to rebel against the laws because they violate the rights of those who want to refer to God regardless of what building they are in.
No one would be able to argue separation of church and state because if someone feels the law is unfair.. what the heck? Just buck the system like the mayor did and do it anyway. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: mystic | |
| quote: |
Kookaburra said this in post #15 :
In your 1. 2. 3. postings then, it is a violation of our rights to ban Bibles in schools, courts and other public places because it takes our rights away from us as well.
Therefore, how about everyone who wants to make a statement just take Bibles to school, pray before classes, pray before games, take a Bible to court, talk about God wherever and whenever they want... etc.
After all, the rights were taken away and people ought to rebel against the laws because they violate the rights of those who want to refer to God regardless of what building they are in.
No one would be able to argue separation of church and state because if someone feels the law is unfair.. what the heck? Just buck the system like the mayor did and do it anyway. |
It seems obvious that you cannot argue my points...which you cant.....no one can. They are fact, and are undisputed. The facts I gave are the whole premise behind what the mayor chose to do.
He is not breaking the law.....he is doing his duty, and like I said...he seems to be the only one that is paying attention to it...
Coming back with the separation of church and state is a weak argument to the facts I presented. If you want to fight that issue, then take it up with the government.
The problem you will find that religion isnt equal...people are equal...
Next......
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| Posted by: Kookaburra | | Freedom of religion? Are you saying we are not equal to have freedom of religion then? It's a matter of rights when it comes to marriage, but not a matter of rights when it comes to religion? | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: mystic | |
| quote: |
Kookaburra said this in post #17 :
Freedom of religion? Are you saying we are not equal to have freedom of religion then? It's a matter of rights when it comes to marriage, but not a matter of rights when it comes to religion? |
FREEDOM to choose whatever religion you want...no one can force a religion upon you.
Thats ALOT different than equality of people under the law.
What is it you dont understand about that?
BUT...okay under the premise you speak of...its freedom of religion....like I said no one can force you to practice a certain religion.
Under gay marriages...I dont see how allowing them to marry is forcing you to marry a gay person.
See the difference yet?
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| Posted by: mystic | |
| quote: |
Kookaburra said this in post #17 :
Freedom of religion? Are you saying we are not equal to have freedom of religion then? It's a matter of rights when it comes to marriage, but not a matter of rights when it comes to religion? |
| quote: |
mystic said this in post #18 :
FREEDOM to choose whatever religion you want...no one can force a religion upon you.
Thats ALOT different than equality of people under the law.
What is it you dont understand about that?
BUT...okay under the premise you speak of...its freedom of religion....like I said no one can force you to practice a certain religion.
Under gay marriages...I dont see how allowing them to marry is forcing you to marry a gay person.
See the difference yet? |
I should probably also state this...
Freedom of religion is a major factor behind the separation of church and state...the state cannot force religious rules upon people because of their different religions.
Now with that said...by you stating that you dont want gay marriage because your religion is against it...well thats fine on a personal level....but when the state tells someone that they are not allowing it because biblically it says that it is a sin (or even assumes it by speaking of God), then not only are they violating the 14th Amendment but they are violating people's freedom of religion....because not all religions state that homosexuality is a sin.
And before you ask, in case you do, it doesnt make a difference what religion it is...it could be a religion that only consists of fifty people, but if it is a religious belief of theirs, then you are violatiing their religious freedom.
Like I said...the religious argument doesnt work.
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| Posted by: Kookaburra | |
| quote: |
mystic said this in post #18 :
[B]
FREEDOM to choose whatever religion you want...no one can force a religion upon you. |
The ACLU sued a teacher because he had a Bible in his desk. He never read it to his students. He read it on his breaks. They argued he didn't have a right to have a Bible there.
Judge Moore was ordered to remove his monument of the Ten Commandments
There are lawsuits to try to get churches to remove nativity scenes from their church lawns, and to remove crosses and yard signs from church lawns.
The list goes on.
All of these actions do not allow freedom of religion, as some would like to take their Bibles wherever the go. Some would like to have prayer meetings at work on their breaks.
You guys argue that if someone is offended by homosexuals then look away. I believe I saw that post someplace.
I argue if someone is offended the teacher had a Bible, then look away. Don't like prayer meetings... don't attend... etc.
| quote: |
| Thats ALOT different than equality of people under the law. |
No it isn't. It's denying someone of their right to be free... right? Isn't that the argument you have against banning same-sex marriages? You want people to be free to do whatever they want.
| quote: |
| What is it you dont understand about that? |
Well for starters...it seems it's only violating someone's rights if you support the views of the person who wants the rights.
But if you don't support someone, then it's different, and not a rights issue.
| quote: |
| BUT...okay under the premise you speak of...its freedom of religion....like I said no one can force you to practice a certain religion. |
I'm not talking about the kind of religion. I'm talking about trying to remove God from the public. That's still a form of violating someone's right to have God's name in public view. Yet people who oppose it don't look away. Instead they call the ACLU.
So I'm surprised you don't understand the similarities.
| quote: |
| Under gay marriages...I dont see how allowing them to marry is forcing you to marry a gay person. |
Well well well... how quickly we forget about the force issue, when a law is passed and the mayor starts a rebellious campain that draws in all the states whether they want to be involved or now. It FORCED people to have to defend what the laws say. You see this is as not forcing the issue, but apparently you aren't familiar with lawsuits and the push to force an issue on someone by filing a lawsuit against them.
We'll see if it becomes a matter of getting "rights" and that's it, or if it doesn't stop there and it becomes a matter of forcing people to comply with their lifestyle or risk getting sued.
If they win in court, do you honestly think they aren't going to go after churches next.. forcing them to marry, or get sued? Please! It's already started with gays filing all kinds of lawsuits now.
| quote: |
| See the difference yet? |
Nope... not yet. But I'm sure you aren't surprised.
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| Posted by: Kookaburra | | Oh yeah, I forgot.... why should Judge Moore worry? All he has to do now is drag a few of the monuments in the courtroom. And judges all over the United States can do the same. After all, who cares about separation of church of state? If you don't like a law... break it! You won't get in trouble because nothing was done to the mayor, so it must be ok for all of us to do the same.
And that teacher with the Bible... let's see, how many teachers are there in the US that ban together and take Bibles to school and put them in their desks. May as well start with all the things that got voted into existance. If you don't like a rule, just get out there and violate the laws in the name of what you feel is right. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: mystic | |
| quote: |
Kookaburra said this in post #20 :
The ACLU sued a teacher because he had a Bible in his desk. He never read it to his students. He read it on his breaks. They argued he didn't have a right to have a Bible there.
Judge Moore was ordered to remove his monument of the Ten Commandments
There are lawsuits to try to get churches to remove nativity scenes from their church lawns, and to remove crosses and yard signs from church lawns.
The list goes on.
All of these actions do not allow freedom of religion, as some would like to take their Bibles wherever the go. Some would like to have prayer meetings at work on their breaks.
You guys argue that if someone is offended by homosexuals then look away. I believe I saw that post someplace.
I argue if someone is offended the teacher had a Bible, then look away. Don't like prayer meetings... don't attend... etc.
No it isn't. It's denying someone of their right to be free... right? Isn't that the argument you have against banning same-sex marriages? You want people to be free to do whatever they want.
Well for starters...it seems it's only violating someone's rights if you support the views of the person who wants the rights.
But if you don't support someone, then it's different, and not a rights issue.
I'm not talking about the kind of religion. I'm talking about trying to remove God from the public. That's still a form of violating someone's right to have God's name in public view. Yet people who oppose it don't look away. Instead they call the ACLU.
So I'm surprised you don't understand the similarities.
Well well well... how quickly we forget about the force issue, when a law is passed and the mayor starts a rebellious campain that draws in all the states whether they want to be involved or now. It FORCED people to have to defend what the laws say. You see this is as not forcing the issue, but apparently you aren't familiar with lawsuits and the push to force an issue on someone by filing a lawsuit against them.
We'll see if it becomes a matter of getting "rights" and that's it, or if it doesn't stop there and it becomes a matter of forcing people to comply with their lifestyle or risk getting sued.
If they win in court, do you honestly think they aren't going to go after churches next.. forcing them to marry, or get sued? Please! It's already started with gays filing all kinds of lawsuits now.
Nope... not yet. But I'm sure you aren't surprised. |
I was going to comment on all of this, but I chose not to...
I dont think you quite understand that your religious beliefs do not coincide with equal rights for HUMANS!!!
By stating that the government should impose religious beliefs on other people that is wrong....people should NOT force their religion on other people. It should NOT be a part of our government....YOU said it...FREEDOM OF RELIGION!!!!
The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution protects every citizen’s right to freedom of religion: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” The founders of American government, who fled religious persecution in Europe, made it clear from the beginning that in this new nation religion and government would exist side by side, and the law would not define religious practice
We are all equal under the law (as humans!!!!) This has NOTHING to do with religion!!!
In addition to allowing free rein to religious practice, our Constitution protects freedom of religion by preventing any one religion from dictating the content of law. For all religious views to be protected and respected, it is critical that laws not be made with a particular religious viewpoint in mind, including laws about civil marriage.
Sorry...but this religion argument is total nonsense!
you are trying to impose your religious beliefs on people by wanting it in the law and government....
NOWHERE does the right for gays to marry impose you to have to do the same.
NOW...if you dont understand that...then Im sorry....
Well...I personally think you do...but I dont think you would ever admit youre wrong on this....which you are.
And for the record...you have a real issue with the ACLU...Ill bet you have mentioned that same organization on more than half of your threads....
Why dont you write them a letter? You seem to have time to do that with everyone else....
No offense kooka...but that argument gets old also.
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| Posted by: outsider | |
| quote: |
mystic said this in post #22 :
I dont think you quite understand that your religious beliefs do not coincide with equal rights for HUMANS!!!
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Have I ever told you how much I love you mystic. That was the best way to put that. That phrase could apply to anyone. One sentence that speaks volumes.
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| Posted by: mystic | |
| quote: |
outsider said this in post #23 :
Have I ever told you how much I love you mystic.
Not until now......and why in tarnation did it take you so long???
That was the best way to put that. That phrase could apply to anyone. One sentence that speaks volumes.
Thanks....I thought it be best understood that way...
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| Posted by: Lawless | | Oh great... will you two just kiss and get married already! 
It will be legal at least  | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: outsider | |
| quote: |
mystic said this in post #24 :
Not until now......and why in tarnation did it take you so long???  |
Well, I'm a really shy reserved person.
KJ, I can't get married, I'm gay. That's not legal you know!
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| Posted by: mystic | |
| quote: |
outsider said this in post #26 :
Well, I'm a really shy reserved person.
KJ, I can't get married, I'm gay. That's not legal you know! |
And Im already married....
HEY...maybe we should try to see how many feathers we can ruffle by having a gay man and a married woman try to get married. 
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| Posted by: mystic | |
| quote: |
outsider said this in post #29 :
I'm filling out the online application as we speak. |
| quote: |
KJ said this in post #30 :
Yeah... that's what I'm saying. |
Just make sure you dont alter the applications! 
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| Posted by: Kookaburra | | *sigh* mystic. You don't understand my point of view on this issue any more than I see where you are coming from. Equal rights to you is allowing same-sex marriages, which is a violation of the rights we believe in. And freedom of religion to us is equal rights which you believe is not a right. So in either case, both parties would end up being forced into something they don't think is right.
It's not going to be solved between our differences because neither side agrees with the other on these issues.... but hey! We tried didn't we? | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Kookaburra | |
| quote: |
mystic said this in post #22 :
By stating that the government should impose religious beliefs on other people that is wrong....people should NOT force their religion on other people. It should NOT be a part of our government....YOU said it...FREEDOM OF RELIGION!!!!
The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution protects every citizen’s right to freedom of religion: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” The founders of American government, who fled religious persecution in Europe, made it clear from the beginning that in this new nation religion and government would exist side by side, and the law would not define religious practice |
Who's talking about imposing religion on anyone? I'm talking about taking it away from people... such as what the ACLU is trying to do. They want the mention of God removed from the public and from church lawns. They don't have a right to dictate where God's name is mentioned, as for one thing we have freedom of speech. And for another, churches are private property that shouldn't be dictated what signs they have in their lawns.
They aren't leaving it as a choice for people to decide where and when God's name will be mentioned. They are deciding, through lawsuits, that NO mention of His name will be allowed, which actually violates the freedom of speech Americans treasure.
This has nothing to do with forcing someone to have a religion of some sort, since if a person doesn't want to talk about God... then don't! But they shouldn't try to pass laws or haul us of to court because we DO want to mention God, or have a Bible, or a monument some place.
| quote: |
| We are all equal under the law (as humans!!!!) This has NOTHING to do with religion!!! |
Then why did they pass laws making it illegal to have same-sex marriages?
You know something, I wouldn't fight against this if they included a clause in their laws.
Something to the effect that no same-sex couple shall have the right to file a suit against any party who does not want to participate in this type of union.
But that's not going to happen, so therefore, we are fighting to stop it.
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| NOWHERE does the right for gays to marry impose you to have to do the same. |
No instead we will just be fighting lawsuits because so and so didn't get to get married in the church or building of their choice. Or so and so isn't hiring me because I'm gay... or so and so this or that, etc.
It's not different than the abuse of other minority laws. And what's even more upsetting is it isn't even a law yet and already the lawsuits and threats of lawsuits have begun.
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| NOW...if you dont understand that...then Im sorry.... |
Ditto
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| Well...I personally think you do...but I dont think you would ever admit youre wrong on this....which you are. |
Oh? And you are able to speak for me because...?
I don't believe I am in the wrong, but then again you don't believe you are in the wrong either.
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And for the record...you have a real issue with the ACLU...Ill bet you have mentioned that same organization on more than half of your threads....
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Gee... glad you noticed. Considering I have 1965 threads, that would me at least 983 of them have ACLU in. But I'm sure that was just sarcasm you had when you said that.
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| No offense kooka...but that argument gets old also. |
As do the arguments from your side of the fence.
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| Posted by: gaboman | | Schools still allow kids to learn, whether they worship god or not... but marriage is just for straight people apparently...
So I can't see the similarity here either I'm afraid  | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: chelktty | | Mystic all of those were awesome points!
I think it's unnecessary to have a Federal Constitutional amendment about this. I think it should be left up to the states. Within those districts that vote for same sex marriage, it should be available.
People are so adamantly against same sex marriage, but they don't seem to understand that it IS discrimination. Civil Unions just do not have the same rights as marriage. If the States and Federal Government recognized the equality of both; allowing the same benefits to both institutions, I really don't think that this would be such a hot issue. But the FACT is that civil unions are simply not recognized, hence, homosexuals are looked upon in our government as subhuman. That is INDEED discrimination. No if's, and's or but's about it. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Kookaburra | |
| quote: |
gaboman said this in post #35 :
Schools still allow kids to learn, whether they worship god or not... but marriage is just for straight people apparently...
So I can't see the similarity here either I'm afraid |
I'm not talking about the students. I'm talking about a grown adult who chose to read his Bible on his breaks. Who has the right to dictate to anyone what they can or cannot read on their own time?
As for marriage being for straights only, we will never agree on this because in order for us to agree, you would have to acknowledge that God is the author of marriage, and since it isn't seen that way, it's a mute point discussing it. You have your way of looking at it, and those who acknowledge God as the author have their way of looking at it.
We'll just have to acknowledge we disagree and it won't be solved. I'm watching how this plays out in America, just as the rest of world is probably watching too.
I'm not saying you won't win. I'm not saying you will either. I do believe (my own opinion) it's going to hurt our nation in the long run. But then again, you won't understand what I'm referring too because you don't agree God is the author.
So.....we have a disagreement which is no big deal. People disagree all the time and life still goes on. 
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| Posted by: chelktty | | September 1986 - The ACLU successfully sues fifth grade public school teacher Kenneth Roberts, forcing him to remove his personal Bible from his classroom desk. Roberts kept the Bible on top of his desk, and he read from it during his class' silent reading time. He never read it to his students or told them they had to read it.
Though I think it was wrong for the ACLU to file this frivilous suit, he was indeed reading it during School hours and not specifically on his breaks. Nor was the bible hiding in his desk, he kept it out in the open. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Kookaburra | | The report I read was that it was in his desk. However; so it's on his desk? So what?
How many HP books are out in view to them? How many TV commercials do they see about sex? How many horror films are they allowed to watch? The point is, if we are going to talk about freedom for all, then we need to assume that also includes freedom concerning things of God.
Since that's not the way it is in real life, all parties will have to accept the fact there will be people pushing for what they believe is right, and the opposers will be pushing for what they believe is right.
You believe you are right, but there are millions of Americans who will disagree with you. Same goes for me.
This is a fact of life, and we have to take a stand on where we fall with each issue that comes our way. You know where I stand, and I know where you stand. Life is still going to go on  | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: devildog | | The ACLU is the scourge of the Nation. I agree with Kookaburra. What a despicable bunch of characters. And what a coincidence, they're liberal democrats. 9th jerkit court of appeals (the most overturned bunch of inept idiots on the planet),also Lib/Dems. The Politicians stepping all over the will of the people right now throughout this country by breaking laws and creating an environment for chaos, again Liberals. The ones fighting for the word GOD to be removed from every public building, school, currency, pledge of allegiance,etc al...liberals. Whose idea of art is an upside down Crucifixion in a bottle of urine? You guessed it. Liberals. Who supports, and gives legal representation (for free) to the most vial of defendants? Liberals. Yes they support NAMBLA, a group which dedicates its time to show others how to rape children and get away with it, and represent them for FREE. So go ahead and stand up for the ACLU. It's amazing why they didn't stand up for the rights of that teacher who decided to wear a cross necklace. She was fired. Where were the "champions of the downtrodden"? The same place they will ALWAYS be when it comes to people stepping on religion. No where to be found. But there they are if you happen to bring a bible under your arm and it isn't wrapped up in a brown paper bag as to conceal it. How dare you do that!!Liberalism is a disease and they are the enemy. Period.
Now back to your regularly scheduled topic
Sorry | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Kookaburra | | devil... can you say anarchy?
I think this country is heading for a clash of liberals vs. conservatives. Just one problem though. The ACLU will represent them for free and we'll have to come up with our own funding. I'm sure the mayor won't mind if people hold back on their taxes so we can put the funding where it's needed. After all, why not buck the system? He can.
Ooops... I said ACLU again in another post. I'm sorry.
Also, I'm going to be watching the news when Americans start rebelling against laws because they see nothing is going to get done to the mayor. We could follow suit. Let's say they do win. I can bet a whole lot of opposers are going to break the laws and not support the new law. If they can hire the ACLU to haul people off to court because we don't support their sickening agenda, then there is nothing to stop our side from forming the same type of group and hauling people to court for trying to force us to accept their agenda.
Could be a showdown in America. All you other countries get your popcorn, candy bars and pop ready to watch the show! | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: chelktty | | Whoa, simmer down devil, how's the blood pressure?
Ok the NAMBLA thing is disgusting, I will give you that. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: mystic | |
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Kookaburra said this in post #33 :
*sigh* mystic. You don't understand my point of view on this issue any more than I see where you are coming from. Equal rights to you is allowing same-sex marriages, which is a violation of the rights we believe in. And freedom of religion to us is equal rights which you believe is not a right. So in either case, both parties would end up being forced into something they don't think is right.
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No youre wrong....
Equal rights to me is when everyone has the same rights as others...Had I have been old enough to walk with MLK Jr. I would have been there too.
Its not just about gay marriage...its the right of everyone to have the same rights.
If we can all be arrested the same, killed the same, die the same, bleed the same, our feelings of pain and love are the same....why is material issues any different.
There is a difference which I dont think you get.
Freedom of religion and the separation of church and state is there for a reason....people have different faiths...one religion cannot dictate the law...because people, as human beings, are equal, and Christians shoulnt dictate the law...what of the Jews, buddists, Pagans, etc....every one has different beliefs.
Now...go to Iran, Saudi, etc, and you will find that Muslim religion dictates the law...from the Quran and Shari'a...you cannot be truly accepted there if you practice other religions....
In America we dont have that...because of the 1st Amendment.
So you see....its you that dont understand....
Freedom of religion has nothing to do with equality for human rights.
Let me see if I can get you to understand.....
You cannot not force your religion upon me because I practice a different religion and the law (the 1st Amendment) gives me that right to choose the religion I want. Therefore your religion cannot dictate the law.
Now...you personally may not agree with same sex marriage...but if that were to pass under a civil rights issue....no one is forcing you to marry a woman. So its the same thing...no one can force their religion on another...just as same sex marriage doesnt force you to marry the same sex.
Like I said....how you feel about issues on a personal level is okay....but legally you cannot force people to be below you because of your personal choice.
I dont see gay people out there telling you that you cannot practice Christianity....but you think its okay for you to tell them who they can and cannot love.
Its not right.
I know deep down you understand what I am saying...I just think if you state its okay for people to have their personal choices, then you feel that you have allowed something you shouldnt on your own personal basis. But you cannot deny that you are trying to take others personal choices away because its against your personal belief.....
Personal and legal....different things.
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| Posted by: mystic | |
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chelktty said this in post #42 :
Whoa, simmer down devil, how's the blood pressure?
Ok the NAMBLA thing is disgusting, I will give you that. |
Yes NAMBLA is disgusting!
But I know that NAMBLA is being watched very carefully!
But NAMBLA has nothing to do with this issue.
North American Man Boy Love Association.
Okay...this is men wanting to be with CHILDREN.....
This isnt adults having a mutually exclusive relationship.
to even mention NAMBLA on this thread is another uneeded insult.
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| Posted by: devildog | |
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chelktty said this in post #42 :
Whoa, simmer down devil, how's the blood pressure?
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The meds are kickin in now, sorry.
Mystic, I don't know how it was an insult to YOU . It wasn't meant as one just the same. Need some meds? 
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| Posted by: chelktty | | Sorry mystic, Devil's rant included the reference to it.
Great previous post BTW! Way to drive the points home! | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: mystic | |
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devildog said this in post #45 :
The meds are kickin in now, sorry.
Mystic, I don't know how it was an insult to YOU . It wasn't meant as one just the same. Need some meds? |
I know it wasnt meant as the same issue....I didnt mean it come off that way.
Dont get me wrong...I hate NAMBLA too!
my point, which I didnt make (my mistake) to bring up the ACLU and NAMBLA wasnt needed in here.
It was nothing personal towards anyone...just adding my opinion in on the ACLU and NAMBLA nonsense ( in this thread anyhow )
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| Posted by: mystic | |
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chelktty said this in post #46 :
Sorry mystic, Devil's rant included the reference to it.
Great previous post BTW! Way to drive the points home! |
I didnt mean to quote your post on that one!! Sorry!
Its funny though....I make perfectly valid points, and then the ACLU is brought up...
All I keep thinking is that if this is supposed to counteract an perfectly good argument then it did nothing but fail.
Saying I hate this, and hate that lessens a persons stance about how they are religious and are of God.
I had a feeling that God didnt accept hate.....but hey maybe I didnt read the bible right. 
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| Posted by: chelktty | | I think you read the Bible just fine Mystic, you just didn't interpret it the way some people do.  | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Kookaburra | | Well if everyone has a right to have the same rights as everyone else, then let's get those men in rebelling because they can't have babies!
There are just some things that don't belong in the "equal" category. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Kookaburra | |
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mystic said this in post #48 :
I had a feeling that God didnt accept hate.....but hey maybe I didnt read the bible right. |
Acutally, God hated Esau, but that must be a different god that I'm referring too. It seems there are personalities of God people just don't want to accept.
Perhaps it's because if they accepted all of God, they would have to admit some of the things they want in life are not pleasing to Him. Who knows? I'm just guessing now since I can't speak for anyone but myself.
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| Posted by: chelktty | | I find it interesting that some people think of gays and lesbians as subhuman. How could someone not believe in equality for all mankind? That's just crazy! | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Kookaburra | | I don't think of them as subhuman at all. I'm sorry you feel that way. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Lawless | | Chel, I understand... and you're right. Unfortunately, it happens with comments, looks, etc... in everyday life. People don't realize it, but that is so hateful. At least I've learned, somewhat, how to have a think skin when dealing with such things. Being called 'sickening' is a hard "Pill to swallow" as my mom would say. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: mystic | |
| quote: |
Kookaburra said this in post #50 :
Well if everyone has a right to have the same rights as everyone else, then let's get those men in rebelling because they can't have babies!
There are just some things that don't belong in the "equal" category. |
Hey...if men could have children in the way women do...Id be all for it!
BUT...this is a TERRIBLE comparison if you are talking about men giving birth....
HOWEVER...if you are talking about men adopting children, why shouldnt they have that right?
They are just as capable as women to raise a child.
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| Posted by: mystic | |
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Kookaburra said this in post #53 :
I don't think of them as subhuman at all. I'm sorry you feel that way. |
Well....actually I think deep down you do.
You say they shouldnt have the same rights as you...so you must feel that you have the right to more privledges as they do...
Your feelings towards gay people are no different than the KKK has for black people and Jews....the klansmen dont think that blacks and jews (or any other race) should have the same rights as them because of their color and religion, and therefore catergorize them as subhuman.
You feel that gay people shouldnt have the same rights as you because of your religion, therefore.....
well...you get my point.
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| Posted by: mystic | |
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Kookaburra said this in post #51 :
Acutally, God hated Esau, but that must be a different god that I'm referring too. It seems there are personalities of God people just don't want to accept. |
Oh yes...another contradition in the Bible! I love it when you remind me of these things...because according to Matt we are told to love our enemies and treat them with charity.
But hey I guess you just pick and choose what you want to side with your views.....as does every supposedly heavily religious person I know.
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| Posted by: chelktty | |
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KJ said this in post #54 :
Chel, I understand... and you're right. Unfortunately, it happens with comments, looks, etc... in everyday life. People don't realize it, but that is so hateful. At least I've learned, somewhat, how to have a think skin when dealing with such things. Being called 'sickening' is a hard "Pill to swallow" as my mom would say.
Well gee Kris, since it's your "choice" to be gay, why don't you just choose to be heterosexual? Then you wouldn't have to wear a thick skin to deal with comments like "sickening", "unnatural", "freaks/freakish" or "abomination"?
Some people just don't get it, do they girl?
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| quote: |
mystic said this in post #55 :
Hey...if men could have children in the way women do...Id be all for it!
Hey me too! That would be great!
BUT...this is a TERRIBLE comparison if you are talking about men giving birth....
Excellent point! So if gay men can't give birth, they shouldn't have equal rights. But hey.... straight men can't give birth either....Hmmmm.... |
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| Posted by: Lawless | |
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chelktty said this in post #58 :
KJ said this in post #54 :
Chel, I understand... and you're right. Unfortunately, it happens with comments, looks, etc... in everyday life. People don't realize it, but that is so hateful. At least I've learned, somewhat, how to have a think skin when dealing with such things. Being called 'sickening' is a hard "Pill to swallow" as my mom would say.
Well gee Kris, since it's your "choice" to be gay, why don't you just choose to be heterosexual? Then you wouldn't have to wear a thick skin to deal with comments like "sickening", "unnatural", "freaks/freakish" or "abomination"? 
Some people just don't get it, do they girl?
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Awe, Shelly, you KNOW that I TRIED to be straight. Ask my ex-husband. It was so awful... and the fact that it broke his heart still kills me, to this day. Yeah, of course I "choose" to be gay. I just love having people call me dyke, and so much more. I love getting dirty looks. I love people's judgemental comments all throughout life. It's so great to have made this "CHOICE" to 'go against the flow or normalicy'. 
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| Posted by: devildog | | Not trying to stir it up...I just wanted to post this article I ran across. Tell me what ya think of it. It is from the family reseach counsil.
by: Mr. Peter Sprigg
What's wrong with letting same-sex couples legally "marry?"
There are two key reasons why the legal rights, benefits, and responsibilities of civil marriage should not be extended to same-sex couples.
The first is that homosexual relationships are not marriage. That is, they simply do not fit the minimum necessary condition for a marriage to exist--namely, the union of a man and a woman.
The second is that homosexual relationships are harmful. Not only do they not provide the same benefits to society as heterosexual marriages, but their consequences are far more negative than positive.
Either argument, standing alone, is sufficient to reject the claim that same-sex unions should be granted the legal status of marriage.
Let's look at the first argument. Isn't marriage whatever the law says it is?
No. Marriage is not a creation of the law. Marriage is a fundamental human institution that predates the law and the Constitution. At its heart, it is an anthropological and sociological reality, not a legal one. Laws relating to marriage merely recognize and regulate an institution that already exists.
But isn't marriage just a way of recognizing people who love each other and want to spend their lives together?
If love and companionship were sufficient to define marriage, then there would be no reason to deny "marriage" to unions of a child and an adult, or an adult child and his or her aging parent, or to roommates who have no sexual relationship, or to groups rather than couples. Love and companionship are usually considered integral to marriage in our culture, but they are not sufficient to define it as an institution.
All right--but if you add a sexual relationship to love and companionship, isn't that what most people would consider "marriage?"
It's getting closer but is still not sufficient to define marriage.
In a ruling handed down June 26, 2003, the U. S. Supreme Court declared in Lawrence v. Texas that sodomy laws (and any other laws restricting private sexual conduct between consenting adults) are unconstitutional. Some observers have suggested that this dec-ision paves the way for same-sex "marriage." But in an ironic way, the Court's rulings that sex need not be (legally) confined to marriage undermine any argument that sex alone is a defining characteristic of marriage. Something more must be required.
So--what IS marriage, then?
Anthropologist Kingsley Davis has said, "The unique trait of what is commonly called marriage is social recognition and approval ... of a couple's engaging in sexual intercourse and bearing and rearing children." Marriage scholar Maggie Gallagher says that "marriage across societies is a public sexual union that creates kinship obligations and sharing of resources between men, women, and the children their sexual union may produce."
Canadian scholar Margaret A. Somerville says, "Through marriage our society marks out the relationship of two people who will together transmit human life to the next generation and nurture and protect that life."
Another Canadian scholar, Paul Nathanson (who is himself a homosexual), has said, "Because heterosexuality is directly related to both reproduction and survival, ... every human societ[y] has had to promote it actively . ... Heterosexuality is always fostered by a cultural norm" that limits marriage to unions of men and women. He adds that people "are wrong in assuming that any society can do without it." [emphasis in original]
Are you saying that married couples who don't have children (whether by choice, or because of infertility or age) aren't really married? If we deny marriage to same-sex couples because they can't reproduce, why not deny it to those couples, too?
A couple that doesn't want children when they marry might change their minds. Birth control might fail for a couple that uses it. A couple that appears to be infertile may get a surprise and conceive a child. The marital commitment may deter an older man from conceiving children with a younger woman outside of marriage. Even a very elderly couple is of the structural type (i.e., a man and a woman) that could theoretically produce children (or could have in the past). And the sexual union of all such couples is of the same type as that which reproduces the human race, even if it does not have that effect in particular cases.
Admittedly, society's interest in marriages that do not produce children is less than its interest in marriages that result in the reproduction of the species. However, we still recognize childless marriages because it would be an invasion of a heterosexual couple's privacy to require that they prove their intent or ability to bear children.
There is no reason, though, to extend "marriage" to same-sex couples, which are of a structural type (two men or two women) that is incapable--ever, under any circumstances, regardless of age, health, or intent--of producing babies naturally. In fact, they are incapable of even engaging in the type of sexual act that results in natural reproduction. And it takes no invasion of privacy or drawing of arbitrary upper age boundaries to determine that.
Another way to view the relationship of marriage to reproduction is to turn the question around. Instead of asking whether actual reproduction is essential to marriage, ask this: If marriage never had anything to do with reproduction, would there be any reason for the government to be involved in regulating or rewarding it? Would we even tolerate the government intervening in such an intimate relationship, any more than if government defined the terms of who may be your "best friend?" The answer is undoubtedly "no"--which reinforces the conclusion that reproduction is a central (even if not obligatory) part of the social significance of marriage.
Indeed, the facts that a child cannot reproduce, that close relatives cannot reproduce without risk, and that it only takes one man and one woman to reproduce, are among the reasons why people are barred from marrying a child, a close blood relative, or a person who is already married. Concerns about reproduction are central to those restrictions on one's choice of marriage partner--just as they are central to the restriction against "marrying" a person of the same sex.
But people can also reproduce without getting married. So what is the purpose of marriage?
The mere biological conception and birth of children are not sufficient to ensure the reproduction of a healthy, successful society. Paul Nathanson, the homosexual scholar cited above, says that there are at least five functions that marriage serves--things that every culture must do in order to survive and thrive. They are:
· Foster the bonding between men and women
· Foster the birth and rearing of children
· Foster the bonding between men and children
· Foster some form of healthy masculine identity
· Foster the transformation of adolescents into sexually responsible adults
Maggie Gallagher puts it more simply, saying that "children need mothers and fathers" and "marriage is the most practical way to get them for children."
But why should homosexuals be denied the right to marry like anyone else?
The fundamental "right to marry" is a right that rests with individuals, not with couples. Homosexual individuals already have exactly the same "right" to marry as anyone else. Marriage license applications do not inquire as to a person's "sexual orientation."
Many people who now identify themselves as homosexual have previously been in legal (opposite-sex) marriages. On the other hand, many people who previously had homosexual relationships have now renounced that behavior and married persons of the opposite sex. If we define a "homosexual" as anyone who has ever experienced homosexual attractions, then both of these scenarios represent "homosexual" individuals who have exercised their right to be legally married.
However, while every individual person is free to get married, no person, whether heterosexual or homosexual, has ever had a legal right to marry simply any willing partner. Every person, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is subject to legal restrictions as to whom they may marry. To be specific, every person, regardless of sexual preference, is legally barred from marrying a child, a close blood relative, a person who is already married, or a person of the same sex. There is no discrimination here, nor does such a policy deny anyone the "equal protection of the laws" (as guaranteed by the Constitution), since these restrictions apply equally to every individual.
Some people may wish to do away with one or more of these longstanding restrictions upon one's choice of marital partner. However, the fact that a tiny but vocal minority of Americans desire to have someone of the same sex as a partner does not mean that they have a "right" to do so, any more than the desires of other tiny (but less vocal) minorities of Americans give them a "right" to choose a child, their own brother or sister, or a group of two or more as their marital partners.
Isn't prohibiting homosexual "marriage" just as discriminatory as prohibiting interracial marriage, like some states used to do?
This analogy is not valid at all. Bridging the divide of the sexes by uniting men and women is both a worthy goal and a part of the fundamental purpose of marriage, common to all human civilizations.
Laws against interracial marriage, on the other hand, served only the purpose of preserving a social system of racial segregation. This was both an unworthy goal and one utterly irrelevant to the fundamental nature of marriage.
Allowing a black woman to marry a white man does not change the definition of marriage, which requires one man and one woman. Allowing two men or two women to marry would change that fundamental definition. Banning the "marriage" of same-sex couples is therefore essential to preserve the nature and purpose of marriage itself.
Hasn't the nature of marriage already changed dramatically in the last few generations? In defending "traditional marriage," aren't you defending something that no longer exists?
It's true that American society's concept of marriage has changed, especially over the last fifty years. But not all change is positive, and our experiences in that regard may be instructive. Consider some of the recent changes to the institution of marriage--and their consequences:
· The divorce revolution has undermined the concept that marriage is a life-long commitment. As a result, there's been an epidemic of broken homes and broken families, and the consequences have been overwhelmingly negative.
· The sexual revolution has undermined the concept that sexual relations should be confined to marriage. As a result, there's been an epidemic of cohabitation, sexually transmitted diseases, abortions, and broken hearts, and the consequences have been overwhelmingly negative.
· The concept that childbearing should be confined to marriage has been undermined. As a result, there's been an epidemic of out-of-wedlock births, single parenthood, and fatherless children, and the consequences have been overwhelmingly negative.
· The pornography revolution, particularly with the advent of the Internet, has undermined the concept that a man's sexual desires should be directed toward his wife. As a result, there's been an epidemic of broken relationships, abused wives, and sex crimes, and the consequences have been overwhelmingly negative.
And now there is social and political pressure to redefine what constitutes marriage itself. What grounds does anyone have for thinking that the consequences of that radical social revolution, unprecedented in human history, would be any more positive than the consequences of the much less sweeping changes already described?
Why does "defending marriage" and "defending the family" require opposing same-sex unions? How does a homosexual union do any harm to someone else's heterosexual marriage?
It may come as a surprise to many people, but homosexual unions often have a more direct impact on heterosexual marriages than one would think. For example, the Boston Globe reported June 29, 2003, that "nearly 40 percent" of the 5,700 homosexual couples who have entered into "civil unions" in Vermont "have had a previous heterosexual marriage."
Of course, it could be argued that many of those marriages may have ended long before a spouse found their current homosexual partner. And some may assume that no opposite-sex spouse would want to remain married to someone with same-sex attractions. Nevertheless, the popular myth that a homosexual orientation is fixed at birth and unchangeable may have blinded us to the fact that many supposed "homosexuals" have, in fact, had perfectly functional heterosexual marriages. And as Globe columnist Jeff Jacoby points out, "In another time or another state, some of those marriages might have worked out. The old stigmas, the universal standards that were so important to family stability, might have given them a fighting chance. Without them, they were left exposed and vulnerable."
But isn't the number of homosexuals too small for same-sex unions to have much impact on other people's marriages?
It's probably true that the percentage of marriages that fail because of the desire of one spouse to pursue a homosexual relationship will always be fairly small.
The most significant impact of legally recognizing same-sex unions would be more indirect. Expanding the definition of what "marriage" is to include relationships of a homosexual nature would inevitably, in the long run, change people's concept of what marriage is, what it requires, and what one should expect from it. These changes in the popular understanding of marriage would, in turn, change people's behavior both before and during marriage.
How would allowing same-sex couples to marry change society's concept of marriage?
For one thing, it would reinforce many of the negative changes described above. As an example, marriage will open wide the door to homosexual adoption, which will simply lead to more children suffering the negative consequences of growing up without both a mother and a father. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: devildog | | Continued
Among homosexual men in particular, casual sex, rather than committed relationships, is the rule and not the exception. And even when they do enter into a more committed relationship, it is usually of relatively short duration. For example, a study of homosexual men in the Netherlands (the first country in the world to legalize "marriage" for same-sex couples), published in the journal AIDS in 2003, found that the average length of "steady partnerships" was not more than 2 < years (Maria Xiridou et al., in AIDS 2003, 17:1029-1038).
In addition, studies have shown that even homosexual men who are in "committed" relationships are not sexually faithful to each other. While infidelity among heterosexuals is much too common, it does not begin to compare to the rates among homosexual men. The 1994 National Health and Social Life Survey, which remains the most comprehensive study of Americans' sexual practices ever undertaken, found that 75 percent of married men and 90 percent of married women had been sexually faithful to their spouse. On the other hand, a major study of homosexual men in "committed" relationships found that only seven out of 156 had been sexually faithful, or 4.5 percent. The Dutch study cited above found that even homosexual men in "steady partnerships" had an average of eight "casual" sex partners per year.
So if same-sex relationships are legally recognized as "marriage," the idea of marriage as a sexually exclusive and faithful relationship will be dealt a serious blow. Adding monogamy and faithfulness to the other pillars of marriage that have already fallen will have overwhelmingly negative consequences for Americans' physical and mental health.
If you want people to be faithful and monogamous, shouldn't you grant same-sex couples the right to marry in order to encourage that?
Some have argued that marriage will change the behavior of homosexuals, but it is far more plausible that the behavior of homosexuals will change people's idea of marriage, further undermining the concepts that marriage is a lifelong commitment and that sex should be confined to marriage.
The entire "gay liberation" movement has been but a part of the larger sexual liberation movement whose fundamental tenet is that anybody should be able to have sex with anybody they want any time they want. To suggest that the crowning achievement of that pro-homosexual movement--obtaining society's ultimate stamp of approval through civil marriage--is suddenly going to result in these "liberated" homosexuals settling down into faithful, monogamous, childrearing is foolishly naive.
Don't homosexuals need marriage rights so that they will be able to visit their partners in the hospital?
The idea that homosexuals are routinely denied the right to visit their partners in the hospital is nonsense. When this issue was raised during debate over the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996, the Family Research Council did an informal survey of nine hospitals in four states and the District of Columbia. None of the administrators surveyed could recall a single case in which a visitor was barred because of their homosexuality, and they were incredulous that this would even be considered an issue.
Except when a doctor limits visitation for medical reasons, final authority over who may visit an adult patient rests with that patient. This is and should be the case regardles |
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