What did we ever do? *WARNING* |
| Posted by: Larke2000 | | where are the pics of the homocide bombers. oh, that's right. they're scattered all over the innocent civilians they've killed in Israel. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Luke90 | | Yes, a picture's worth a thousand words.
Unfortunately, there are just as many equally jarring images of the devastation done to innocent Israelis by Palestinian and pro-Palestinian terrorists. Someone, in some thread, pointed out that the Palestinian cause would be better served (or not hurt so much) if the terrorists focused their violence on Israeli police and military targets.
By randomly bombing restaurants, hotels, and buses, the message is "we hate all Israelis" which just makes it easier for Israel to send the message "we hate all Palestinians."
| quote: |
Darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only life can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate. Only love can do that.
(Martin Luther King Jr) |
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | |
| quote: |
Larke2000 said this in post #3 :
where are the pics of the homocide bombers. oh, that's right. they're scattered all over the innocent civilians they've killed in Israel. |
 , why do ask me for them? Their not being censored from you guys, just go to CNN and ull find them , these pics you will never find them, thats why im posting them.....
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | |
| quote: |
Luke90 said this in post #4 :
Yes, a picture's worth a thousand words.
Unfortunately, there are just as many equally jarring images of the devastation done to innocent Israelis by Palestinian and pro-Palestinian terrorists. Someone, in some thread, pointed out that the Palestinian cause would be better served (or not hurt so much) if the terrorists focused their violence on Israeli police and military targets.
By randomly bombing restaurants, hotels, and buses, the message is "we hate all Israelis" which just makes it easier for Israel to send the message "we hate all Palestinians."
|
Dude but theres no cruelty in them, thers no harrasment in them, theres no anti-human in them, just pictures of innocent israelis dead or injured, if their dead they dont suffer, and if their injured, medical help is on the spot, but for Palestinians, its a different story, they get everything there is, harrasment, suffering, poverty, beatings, sexual harrasments ( belive it or not, Israel has hundreds of palestinian kids in jail and they accuse the soldiers of sexually raping them ), they get their house destroyed, they sleep in fear, eat in fear, live in fear, they get killed for no reason, they are getting a tiny amount of support ( not support towards the suicide bombing ), they get massacres, hunger,
The fact is that the Israeli civilians dont face these problems, only death and injurys. Their not suffering, I dont belive that there has been Massacres done to them, Im not telling you to not show sympathy for them or telling you that its nothing and they arent important, but when you compare the suffering of the two, Israelis cant come close to the Palestinians.
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Merkava | | I don't know about you, But id rather get harrassed at a checkpoint than ****ing die. 
Newsflash, Not knowing if youll make it to work and back alive is suffering. Not knowing if youll make it out of a resturant alive is suffering. Losing mothers, fathers, brothers,sisters, cousins, and friends, is suffering.
And just scrolling through the pictures you've posted, i already noticed one that was digitally altered - The one pointing the gun at the children. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | | LMAO, digitally altered, yea sure it is, and its not about the gun, its about the kids being beat up, and maybe the Israelis are suffering , but its not physically suffering, wats worse? 1 Israeli not physically suffering or 5 Palestinians physically suffering? | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Luke90 | |
| quote: |
TWBR said this in post #5 :
, why do ask me for them? Their not being censored from you guys, just go to CNN and ull find them , these pics you will never find them, thats why im posting them..... |
Valid point - the Western media is quick to cover terrorist attacks, but they don't seem to consider Israeli forces to be terrorists. Based on news reports in the US, Palestinian terrorists are continually attacking innocent Israelis, while the Israeli forces frequently "take out terrorist camps." When we do hear of innocent Palestinians being killed, more often than not they were supposedly being used as human shields by the terrorists who were the "actual" target. And the day-to-day harrasment, well occasionally a gutsy reporter will get a brief documentary past his or her editors.
| quote: |
TWBR said this in post #6 :
Dude but theres no cruelty in them, thers no harrasment in them, theres no anti-human in them, just pictures of innocent israelis dead or injured, if their dead they dont suffer, and if their injured, medical help is on the spot, but for Palestinians, its a different story, they get everything there is, harrasment, suffering, poverty, beatings, sexual harrasments ( belive it or not, Israel has hundreds of palestinian kids in jail and they accuse the soldiers of sexually raping them ), they get their house destroyed, they sleep in fear, eat in fear, live in fear, they get killed for no reason, they are getting a tiny amount of support ( not support towards the suicide bombing ), they get massacres, hunger,
The fact is that the Israeli civilians dont face these problems, only death and injurys. Their not suffering, I dont belive that there has been Massacres done to them, Im not telling you to not show sympathy for them or telling you that its nothing and they arent important, but when you compare the suffering of the two, Israelis cant come close to the Palestinians. |
Yes, there's a difference, but "only death and injury" seems to be an awfully casual dismissal. Those who die (and I'm certain many of those deaths, on both sides, are far from painless) lose their futures, and their families lose loved ones, just as is the case when Palestinians are killed. And whether or not medical help is immediate, personally I'd prefer not to be injured at all.
Again, why attack civillian targets when the vast majority of the harassment and violence against Palestinians comes from the military and police? As you know, I understand the desperation that leads to these attacks, but it seems counter-productive not to make some effort to narrow the focus. I'm certain that among the dead Israelis were some with sympathy for the Palestinians. We will never know if the Israeli leader who was destined to bring peace has already died.
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | | True that, i fully show sympathy for them, for me to see a dead Israeli baby, i would be really sad and feel extremely bad, such a helpless baby, died for no reason, but some people instead of blaming the Government they choose to blame the Palestinians and never see their everyday suffering. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | |
| quote: |
Merkava said this in post #7 :
And just scrolling through the pictures you've posted, i already noticed one that was digitally altered - The one pointing the gun at the children. |
Just by that i can already notice ur hatred for the Palestinian people, even if they die, u hate them and show no sympathy. Dont deny it because u know its true. You would love to see all of them dead.
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: antizionist2004 | | Yes luke it was me who said they should target military targets solely, because I think they would have a lot more support if they did. TWBR, where do you come from? Are you muslim? Ahmaddiyat? Arab? Palestinian? | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | | Im Palestinian , Im Muslim, luckly i wasnt hurt by the Israelis, becuase i wasnt born in Palestine but my parents were. Im hoping to go to Palestine this summer, im gonna take a camera and take pics of the Dome of Rock and the Church of Nativity. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: antizionist2004 | | What happened to your parents? And aren't you scared to go to the Palestinian territory? When I went to Israe I was scared enough, but I would never dream of entering the Palestinian territory. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | | My Parents went to go live in Venezuela, we had family there, uncles and aunts and my grandma, they lived there for years, they had to leave from Palestine and start a new life. Im not scared to go to Palestine, if i die there, ill die proudly and happy, dying in that land will be a dream for me. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: antizionist2004 | | "Dying in that land will be a dream for me"
What are you, some kind of sicko?? | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Luke90 | |
| quote: |
antizionist2004 said this in post #14:
What happened to your parents? And aren't you scared to go to the Palestinian territory? When I went to Israe I was scared enough, but I would never dream of entering the Palestinian territory. |
Personally, if I win that free trip to Israel, I'd prefer to spend my time with the Palestinians. When I travel, I find I learn much more about the country I'm visiting if I live with a family there rather than some posh hotel. I prefer to shop and see the sights accompanied by people who live there, rather than with a group of tourists in an air conditioned bus. As for safety, I suppose I'd be just as likely to be killed in an Israeli raid as to be in the wrong place when a car bomb goes off. I'm sure the Israeli people wouldn't attack and kill me (I certainly don't look Palestinian), and I'm sure the Palestinians wouldn't either. From past experience, the greatest likelihood on either side of the wall would be that people would see "American" and try to get me to spend my money...
| quote: |
antizionist2004 said this in post #16 :
"Dying in that land will be a dream for me"
What are you, some kind of sicko?? |
TW can speak for himself on this, but I'll jump in anyhow. I know where I'd prefer to be when I die, although I'm in no hurry for that to happen. I think you're reading "dying in that land will be a dream for me" and hearing "I want to die (there)." Dying in a place you love can be a dream, with the focus not on dying but on the place.
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Merkava | |
| quote: |
Luke90 said this in post #9 :
Valid point - the Western media is quick to cover terrorist attacks, but they don't seem to consider Israeli forces to be terrorists. Based on news reports in the US, Palestinian terrorists are continually attacking innocent Israelis, while the Israeli forces frequently "take out terrorist camps." When we do hear of innocent Palestinians being killed, more often than not they were supposedly being used as human shields by the terrorists who were the "actual" target. And the day-to-day harrasment, well occasionally a gutsy reporter will get a brief documentary past his or her editors. |
Any media that consideres the IDF terrorist, is simply put, biased beyond belief. Not even most Arab networks call the IDF terrorists.
Go here and tell me the Media has a pro-Israel stance
http://www.honestreporting.com/a/Archives.asp
| quote: |
Luke90 said this in post #9 :
Again, why attack civillian targets when the vast majority of the harassment and violence against Palestinians comes from the military and police? As you know, I understand the desperation that leads to these attacks, but it seems counter-productive not to make some effort to narrow the focus. I'm certain that among the dead Israelis were some with sympathy for the Palestinians. We will never know if the Israeli leader who was destined to bring peace has already died. |
You obviously don't understand how the terrorist-psyche works. They aren't there to retaliate against people who cause harassment. They are there to kill women and children for the sole purpose of causing a Jewish emigration of Israel.
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | | AntiZionist, when i mean that i wanna die there, i mean that im hoping to live to be a old man, and finish my years in Palestine in the peace and calm, i dont want to die now, im young, im hoping to be an engineer, i wouldnt throw away my life, but if im a situacion where a Israeli soldiers decide to shoot at me, i would fight back wit rocks and if i die, i would die proud, that i fought for my country. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | | Luke, your right, an american would receive love from the Israelis and the Palestinians, but becareful when you go on the Palestinian side, if you are seen with a camera by the Israeli troops, they will open fire, Video Taping the actions of the Israeli troops can cause death, a lot of reporters and peace activists have been killed by the Israeli troops, and yea the shooter goes on trial. But it can cause you, your life. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Luke90 | |
| quote: |
TWBR said this in post #20 :
Luke, your right, an american would receive love from the Israelis and the Palestinians, but becareful when you go on the Palestinian side, if you are seen with a camera by the Israeli troops, they will open fire, Video Taping the actions of the Israeli troops can cause death, a lot of reporters and peace activists have been killed by the Israeli troops, and yea the shooter goes on trial. But it can cause you, your life. |
Well, if I win the free trip to Israel, I'll have to get a sneakier camera. Although in Vietnam I did sneak in one or two prohibited shots of military installations (before I learned that they don't take kindly to that)...
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Merkava | | Im going to assume you've never been to Israel.
Doesn't suprise me at all. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Luke90 | |
| quote: |
Merkava said this in post #22 :
Im going to assume you've never been to Israel.
Doesn't suprise me at all. |
Forgive me. As I promised in another thread, when I win my free trip to Israel, I'll have to invite you along.
You seem to be implying that if I haven't been to Israel I really should just go find another forum to get involved in, since I can't really know the horror of living in Israel and dealing with those horrible Palestinians!
Well, surely you know the famous saying about the word "assume." You don't know where I've been, where I haven't been, or really much of anything about me except that you don't agree with me at all.
I expect, since it contradicts most of your views, you didn't read the article by David Grossman on a link posted earlier in another thread. I guarantee you will be enraged by this man's lies and exaggerations! Well, perhaps, since he's a Jew who lives in Israel, you'll just write him off as deranged.
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Merkava | |
| quote: |
Luke90 said this in post #23 :
You seem to be implying that if I haven't been to Israel I really should just go find another forum to get involved in, since I can't really know the horror of living in Israel and dealing with those horrible Palestinians! |
Nope, wasn't implying that.
I was simply implying that because you Haven't been to Israel, your whole opinion of the situation is a result of the Media you listen to, and the history book you read. You will receieve a Bias no matter where you go.
| quote: |
Luke90 said this in post #23 :
Well, surely you know the famous saying about the word "assume." You don't know where I've been, where I haven't been, or really much of anything about me except that you don't agree with me at all. |
Well, My assumption was right, wasn't it? The fact remians, most neutral people that visit Israel, tend to leave with a Pro-israel mindset.
| quote: |
Luke90 said this in post #23 :
I expect, since it contradicts most of your views, you didn't read the article by David Grossman on a link posted earlier in another thread. I guarantee you will be enraged by this man's lies and exaggerations! Well, perhaps, since he's a Jew who lives in Israel, you'll just write him off as deranged. |
Luke90 and his Jew-written article to the rescue!  Ok, Ill write a critique of your article, I hope you'll do the same for me in the future.
| quote: |
Zionist intellectuals encouraged Jews to immigrate to a new homeland, Palestine. But there was a problem. Palestine was a) a territory owned by the Ottoman Empire and b) occupied mostly by Arabs who had lived there for more than a thousand years. So in attempting to establish a homeland in Palestine, the Zionists were essentially targeting the homes of Arabs. No matter how you slice it, it is impossible to have a Jewish state in an area with a majority of Arabs unless you a) get rid of the Arabs or b) bring in a lot more Jews.
Furthermore, the very idea of creating a "Jewish" state has disturbingly racist undertones. What is supposed to happen to Arabs who happen to live in this state. In today's Israel, not counting the occupied terroritories, 20% of Israel's population is Arab. These Arabs have long complained, justifiably, about being treated as second class citizens. By defining itself as a Jewish state, Israel has told 20% of its people that they don't really belong. Where is the moral justification for this? |
This paragraphs pretty much sums up how idiotic he is.
What exactly is wrong with a mass flow of Immigration and a high CBR of Jews into Brisith-occupied Palestine? Did they come in and just steal land? No, they bought it.
What rights do Israeli-Arabs have that Israeli-Jews don't?
| quote: |
| When the dust cleared in 1948, the Jews had won. Most of Palestine was under their control. Most of the Arab population had fled, leaving the area with a Jewish majority. The fleeing Arab population ended up in Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon, living in refugee camps where anger and hatred towards Israel festered. (Camps whose existence was used and perpetuated by unscrupulous Arab leaders as a political tool in their ongoing conflicts with Israel.) |
Ahh, The "Jews Won". No mention of who Declared and started the war.
And the Arabs "just left." No mention of the Arab armies of Jordan and Egypt Asking all Arabs to leave their homes to make the extermination of the Jews easier.
| quote: |
| So then, and still today, Israel won control of a large number of Arabs who did not want to be controlled. Israel claimed to be willing to give back the territories if they could achieve real peace; Arabs waffled between unwillingness to even grant Israel's right to exist at all and distrust of Israel's sincerity in being willing to make territorial concessions. |
Perhaps you should have read the whole article.
| quote: |
| He claims that Israel offered the Palestinians all of the West Bank and Gaza, but that Arafat rejected this offer. This is a myth. Reports by reliable American observers at Camp David II (July 2000) say that Ehud Barak offered Arafat only partial control, insisting that dozens of settlements remain under Israeli authority and protection, along with the guarded roads and checkpoints which allow them to survive. In other words, Arafat was offered an apartheid Palestine and rejected that offer. |
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to withdraw from 97 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of the Gaza Strip. In addition, he agreed to dismantle 63 isolated settlements. In exchange for the 5 percent annexation of the West Bank, Israel would increase the size of the Gaza territory by roughly a third.
Barak also made previously unthinkable concessions on Jerusalem, agreeing that Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem would become the capital of the new state. The Palestinians would maintain control over their holy places and have "religious sovereignty" over the Temple Mount.
According to U.S. peace negotiator Dennis Ross, Israel offered to create a Palestinian state that was contiguous, and not a series of cantons. Even in the case of the Gaza Strip, which must be physically separate from the West Bank unless Israel were to be cut into non-contiguous pieces, a solution was devised whereby an overland highway would connect the two parts of the Palestinian state without any Israeli checkpoints or interference.
And here's the golden part - Arafat not only REJECTED this offer , but he also DIDNT PUT UP A COUNTER-OFFER.
| quote: |
| Moreover, blaming the intifada on Arafat and the Palestinians ignores a history of Israeli provocations, most notably the deliberately inflammatory decision of Sharon to take a walk on the grounds of the Mosque of the Dome of the Rock (Sept 2000), sacred to Muslims, backed by hundreds of Israeli policemen. Sharon clearly wanted a reaction, and he got one, and won his election in the process. There was no reason for Sharon to make that walk except to start trouble, and he got the intifada. |
Ahh, blamming the Intifada on Sharon visiting the temple Mount.
Imad Faluji, the Palestinian Authority Communications Minister, admitted months after Sharon's visit that the violence had been planned in July, far in advance of Sharon's "provocation." "It [the uprising] had been planned since Chairman Arafat's return from Camp David, when he turned the tables on the former U.S. president and rejected the American conditions."
"“The Sharon visit did not cause the ‘Al-Aksa Intifada.’”
-Conclusion of the Mitchel Report
The violence started before Sharon's September 28, 2000, visit to the Temple Mount. The day before, for example, an Israeli soldier was killed at the Netzarim Junction. The next day in the West Bank city of Kalkilya, a Palestinian police officer working with Israeli police on a joint patrol opened fire and killed his Israeli counterpart.
Official Palestinian Authority media exhorted the Palestinians to violence. On September 29, the Voice of Palestine, the PA's official radio station sent out calls "to all Palestinians to come and defend the al-Aksa mosque." The PA closed its schools and bused Palestinian students to the Temple Mount to participate in the organized riots.
Just prior to Rosh Hashanah (September 30), the Jewish New Year, when hundreds of Israelis were worshipping at the Western Wall, thousands of Arabs began throwing bricks and rocks at Israeli police and Jewish worshippers. Rioting then spread to towns and villages throughout Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Internal Security Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami permitted Sharon to go to the Temple Mount – Judaism’s holiest place – only after calling Palestinian security chief Jabril Rajoub and receiving his assurance that if Sharon did not enter the mosques, no problems would arise. The need to protect Sharon arose when Rajoub later said that the Palestinian police would do nothing to prevent violence during the visit.
Sharon did not attempt to enter any mosques and his 34 minute visit to the Temple Mount was conducted during normal hours when the area is open to tourists. Palestinian youths — eventually numbering around 1,500 — shouted slogans in an attempt to inflame the situation. Some 1,500 Israeli police were present at the scene to forestall violence.
There were limited disturbances during Sharon's visit, mostly involving stone throwing. During the remainder of the day, outbreaks of stone throwing continued on the Temple Mount and in the vicinity, leaving 28 Israeli policemen injured, three of whom were hospitalized. There are no accounts of Palestinian injuries on that day. Significant and orchestrated violence was initiated by Palestinians the following day following Friday prayers.
"“It is not a mistake that the Koran warns us of the hatred of the Jews and put them at the top of the list of the enemies of Islam. Today the Jews recruit the world against the Muslims and use all kinds of weapons. They are plundering the dearest place to the Muslims, after Mecca and Medina and threaten the place the Muslims have faced at first when they prayed and the third holiest city after Mecca and Medina. They want to erect their temple on that place....The Muslims are ready to sacrifice their lives and blood to protect the Islamic nature of Jerusalem and El Aksa!”
-Sheikh Hian Al-Adrisi, Excerpt of address in the al-Aksa mosque (September 29, 2000)
The real desecration of holy places was perpetrated by Palestinians, not Israelis. In October 2000, Palestinian mobs destroyed a Jewish shrine in Nablus – Joseph’s Tomb – tearing up and burning Jewish prayer books. They stoned worshipers at the Western Wall, and attacked Rachel’s Tomb in Bethlehem with firebombs and automatic weapons.
None of the violent attacks were initiated by Israeli security forces, which in all cases responded to Palestinian violence that went well beyond stone throwing. It included massive attacks with automatic weapons and the lynching of Israeli soldiers. Most armed attackers were members of the Tanzim – Arafat’s own militia.
Since all attacks were initiated by Palestinians under Arafat’s orders, only Arafat has the power to end the violence. Israel and the United States have repeatedly called on him to do so and renew the peace process.
| quote: |
| The sad thing is that extremists like Sharon and the leaders of Hamas are in a perverse partnership to sabotage peace. Neither side wants to negotiate. Hamas wants the Jews out; Sharon seems to be on the road to annexing part or all of the West Bank; and both sides are helped by the extremism of the other. It is moderate Palestinians and Israelis who are caught in the middle, losing supporters each time some extremist blows up a bomb or orders another curfew. |
I guess releasing Palestinian criminals with blood on their hands, Trading hundreds of Hezbollah prisoners for 3 dead bodies, And completely removing all of the Jews out of the Gaza strip for NOTHING shows that Sharon does not want to negotiate.
This person seems to think that pulling Jews out of the West Bank and Gaza strip will actually Stop Hamas and company from attacking Israel. I think the transfer of around 300,000 people out of their homes simply isnt worth it, especially when the same people you're negotiating with are terrorists that can't even last a in a 10 day ceasfire. Oh, I think I also forgot to mention that Hamas' whole ideology is to send all of the Jews in Palestine to the Sea.
Perhaps he meant "Pulling all of the Jews out of the middle east" would solve all the problems. 
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | | Well, My assumption was right, wasn't it? The fact remians, most neutral people that visit Israel, tend to leave with a Pro-israel mindset
Ofcorse if they visit Israel, but if they dont visit Palestine and talk to the Palestinians then there not nuetral. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | | Merkava you make it sound like the start of the attacks on both sides started in 2000, well guess what? No, Since 1947 Zionists/Israel has been attacking Palestinians, nobody cared, it wasnt on the news, until Suicide Bombing started to happen frequently, all of my friends, when they hear then words Israel and Palestine , the first thing that comes to their mind is the suicide bombing, they dont know about how the Palestinians got kicked out and thousands got murdered, Its shouldnt be a surprise to see suicide bombing happening now, if your aware of whats been going on, i grew up knowing that Palestinians were dying everyday, i just started to get into the topic about a year ago, and im mad to see how people dont know about what took place in that land since 1947.
Since you wont agree that the Israeli army are terrorists then that wont make you worthy of out time. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: oneofpeace | | TWBR, conflict in that region goes back beyond 1947. In fact in 1920 when British rulers stated their intentions to give Israel their own statehood, Arabs and Palestinians led a revolt and riot against it. Also in the 30's as well.
There has been ugly confrontations back and forth long before 1947 so this statement isn't quite the entire picture.
The strife between Palestinians/Arabs and Jews have a sordid history. Years of tensions and wars have led only to further grief for Palestinians and it's not a simplistic as you make it sound. I truly believe if fortunes were reversed, or if all the wars initiated were successful, Israel today would be far worse than the Palestinians now, because they would have been annihilated. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Luke90 | |
| quote: |
TWBR said this in post #25 :
Well, My assumption was right, wasn't it? The fact remians, most neutral people that visit Israel, tend to leave with a Pro-israel mindset
Of course if they visit Israel, but if they dont visit Palestine and talk to the Palestinians then they're not neutral. |
That's what I'm talkin' about!
Merkava, when I win my free trip to Israel, understand that when you accept my invitation, we're going to spend the entire week in the Palestinian territories.
Thanks, Merkava, for that detailed dissection of Mr. Grossman's opinion. I don't expect you to be shocked, but I still believe he makes some very good points, and I still believe that you won't consider any idea that doesn't fit with your preconceived image of things.
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Merkava | | If only you knew how much time I've spent in the territories. They're conditions are horrible. Certainly not the worst in the world, but horrible.
I feel that most of the blame lies on Hamas, and the PA in general. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Luke90 | |
| quote: |
Merkava said this in post #29 :
If only you knew how much time I've spent in the territories. They're conditions are horrible. Certainly not the worst in the world, but horrible.
I feel that most of the blame lies on Hamas, and the PA in general. |
Apparently so. And you don't feel that the Israeli government has any responsibility?
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Merkava | |
| quote: |
Luke90 said this in post #30 :
Apparently so. And you don't feel that the Israeli government has any responsibility? |
Indirect respnosibility. Not expecting the Israeli government to take action when a terrorist with blood on his hands is vulnerable is foolish - any country would.
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: oneofpeace | | I believe the Palestinians want peace. The one's who doesn't are the terrorist orgs like Hamas, PLO, bragade, etc. I believe Arafat only came around to his reserve about 2 or 3 yrs ago because since the uprising, his conditions deteriorated just like those whom he represent.
Sharon we know has no sympathy for Palestinians. He only bows to political pressures. This is the perfect tool to bring about the changes if they let peace prevail. Who cares how it comes, as long as it comes. It's time out for holding the people you serve hostage to your agendas. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | |
| quote: |
Merkava said this in post #31 :
Indirect respnosibility. Not expecting the Israeli government to take action when a terrorist with blood on his hands is vulnerable is foolish - any country would. |
Your ignorance makes me laugh , Israel attacks Palestinian civilians ( soon to be terrorists ) is that a good way to prevent suicide bombings? No
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Merkava | | Sigh...
Israel doesn't go in there to attack Civilians, they try to avoid it at all costs. Why would they want that? Not only is it no inhumane, but it makes them look bad in the Media.
They go in the territories to kill Terrorists who have, or are planning to, murder Israeli civilians. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Luke90 | | "or are planning to"
Didn't one of your video links show a kid about 10 "planning to" kill Israelis? | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Merkava | | Nah, it showed a 10 year old playing on a battlefield.
What are those 10 year olds doing on battlefields anyways, shouldnt they be at school?
Can you even call them schools anymore?
It's a shame you didn't see the rest of the videos. Its also a shame that the best you could do to excuse the videos was pride yourself in the fact that the Palestinian children aren't afraid to die pointlessly.
I guess it was that AWFUL zionist occupation that taught them to hate so much. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | |
| quote: |
Merkava said this in post #35 :
Sigh...
Israel doesn't go in there to attack Civilians, they try to avoid it at all costs. Why would they want that? Not only is it no inhumane, but it makes them look bad in the Media.
They go in the territories to kill Terrorists who have, or are planning to, murder Israeli civilians. |
Lol, and the Palestinian civilians who died since 2000 are all terrorists?
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | | Ok so lets say that is true, then who were the Israelis killing before those groups got formed? | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Merkava | |
| quote: |
TWBR said this in post #40 :
Ok so lets say that is true, then who were the Israelis killing before those groups got formed? |
Why don't you tell me how many Palestinians died prior to september of 2000?
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | | Ill look it up, im surprised on how many of you think that the violence started in 2000. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: oneofpeace | | TWBR, tell me something. When do you believe all this started, in 1947? Do know about the history of that land?
Sometimes you refer to 1947, but it's so much more deeper than and longer than 47. There was uprisings, revolts, and yes terrorism going on since near the turn of that century. By the time 1947 came around, there were so much tension between them two, you couldn't cut it with an chainsaw.
Read son, you might find out that life began before 1947. I don't think it will change your perceptions much, but at least you will know the history in that region. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: USA1 | | TWBR,
How do we "free" Palestine?
Isn't Palestine free to free themselves? Or are they under the thumb of Hamas?
Does Hamas speak for EVERY Palastinian? Or is the minority ruling there?
These are just questions and I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I just don't understand the lack of tolerance on either side.
You parents were free to leave for South America. Why did they leave? Wouldn't it be better off to stay and try to make things better than to leave with no hope? | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: TWBR | | Well first of all, oneofpeace, the Zionists started to attack the Palestinians in 1947 right?, but yes it goes way back when the Jews who lived in Palestine had confrentations with the Palestinians, Palestinians being the agressors, hundreds killed, both Palestinians and Jews, not something to be proud of or support.
How would Palestine be freed? Um how about give back of the Illegal land that was taken, bring in Palestinians, and make them a state, with Israel and all those Palestinian groups agreeing, their all willling to agree for a peace plan, but when a peace plan comes out, it gets canceled due to an attack on one of the sides.
Hamas will never speak for every Palestinian, he wants Israel crushed, hes only the minority, his actions are in fault for the position that the Palestinians are in right now.
My parents had to leave because they didnt want to live in refugee camps, as a Palestinian if you stay there, you cant do anything, maybe make a group of people who want peace or something but wont do a lot. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Luke90 | |
| quote: |
oneofpeace said this in post #43 :
TWBR, tell me something. When do you believe all this started, in 1947? Do know about the history of that land?
Sometimes you refer to 1947, but it's so much more deeper than and longer than 47. There was uprisings, revolts, and yes terrorism going on since near the turn of that century. By the time 1947 came around, there were so much tension between them two, you couldn't cut it with an chainsaw.
Read son, you might find out that life began before 1947. I don't think it will change your perceptions much, but at least you will know the history in that region. |
Valid point- as I am learning by getting involved in this discussion. I've always valued history as a means to better understand current events. Yes, TW, you should continue to research, to read sources on both sides of the issues, in order to better understand the entire mess, and to be able to better argue your view of it all.
I wasn't around back then, and I was a little kid for much of the more recent history, so I'm learning too. Having said that, sorry Merkava, I still feel the Palestinians have been getting the short end of the stick, and while they have indeed invited some of it, overall they're being screwed, and for the most part Israel hasn't been wearing protection.
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: Merkava | |
| quote: |
Luke90 said this in post #46 :
Having said that, sorry Merkava, I still feel the Palestinians have been getting the short end of the stick, and while they have indeed invited some of it, overall they're being screwed, and for the most part Israel hasn't been wearing protection. |
Its their leaderships fault.
Had the leaders been willing to accept living in peace with Israel in the past, their would have been a Palestinain state created three times by now.
Moreover, it has become increasingly clear that a two-state settlement is elusive because of the Palestinian national movement's inability to establish a state and maintain it.
Next to Israel lies a sick society led by a pathological national movement. It is a society that produces suicide bombers that have become a role model in kindergartens and schools. Recent pronouncements by Yasser Arafat on the occasion of Fatah Day, as well as statements from many other nationalist figures in the Fatah camp, laud those "shaheeds" while clinging ferociously to the ethos of "the right of return" for the refugees.
Palestinian Islamists, drawing the support of about a third of the Palestinian people, do not, of course, foresee any coexistence with a Jewish state. Official Palestinian incitement against the Jews, who are blamed for all Palestinian misfortunes, will inevitably turn a Palestinian state into an irredentist one, that is, a state dissatisfied with its borders and intent on using force to achieve territorial aggrandizement.
The liberal belief that replacing poverty with affluence would moderate the Palestinian political agenda is unlikely to be tested. It is doubtful that the corrupt economic system established by Arafat could produce widespread economic benefits.
Given the opportunity of self-rule in 1993, the Palestinians have established a corrupt, inefficient, lawless and authoritarian political system. Its main failure has been in the area most critical to state-building – monopoly over the use of force.
The existence of many armed militias defies central authority and preserves a fractured Palestinian community. What we see in the territories is another example of a failed state.
Even with the best intentions and much territorial largesse there is nothing Israel could do to bring about a Palestinian state any time soon.
-Jpost
| | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: oneofpeace | | TWBR you keep saying Israel attacked Palestinians in 1947. I believe you're referrencing some of the early terrorist orgs that formed there because of the British rule.
You make a statement in your posts
| quote: |
| ...Hamas will never speak for every Palestinian, he wants Israel crushed, hes only the minority, his actions are in fault for the position that the Palestinians are in right now.... |
Well don't you think this would apply to Israel as well? Terrorist orgs like Irgun and the Stern Gang was not a part of Israel's government and in fact was hunted down by them.
Facts are by 1947, there were many encounters between the Arabs & Jews. The terrorist orgs that formed in Israel was just as wrong as Hamas, Islamic Jahad, Bragede and the rest alike. One wrong is no greater than the other.
The problem with Palestinian leadership is that they're either incapable or unwilling to dismantle terrorist orgs and infrastructures. I believe there are more agendas at play here than you believe TW, Arafat being one of the problems.
As for the land Israel now posses, I believe they should relinquish it. If it will bring peace, then do it, but even a little progress is better than none at all. So when deals go down for peace, there has to be an honest effort on the PA's end in stopping the violence and dismantling orgs there. If it calls for military action, then so be it, but that is the only way there will ever be peace in that region. As long as Hamas and the rest stay organized, then peace will not abound. | | Reply To this Message
|
| Posted by: USA1 | | So giving back the land will stop all of this?
I don't think this is about land anymore. It's about 2 generations of brainwashing.
Why can't the majority stand up and stop the minority? If the majority wants peace at what ever cost, why don't they find it at any cost? Is the land more presious than the lives of future generations? | | Reply To this Message
|
Israel & Palestine Forum: What did we ever do? *WARNING*
|
