Jenin Massacre - the case for

Israel & Palestine Forum

Time and time again the zionists claim this massacre never took place. I believe this to be wrong.

For it is a FACT that an independant UN human rights watch dog based in Israel found that 52 Palesitinians had died, bodies were examined and conclusions by professional medical teams were made.

However, the US human rights, the one that most people follow, and the one that zionists use to back up their claim, found the zionists NOT GUILTY. They let the Israelis off the hook in a big way. I even remember the report on CNN and FOX - NO MASSACRE.

Let us first define massacre:

The dictionary definition of massacre is "killing with indiscriminate violence, killing a number of people where much resistance can not be made and reckless murders."

The decision to reject the apparent evidence of a massacre at Jenin from the US human rights was either:

1) A decision based on the entire truth, despite the contradiction from the other watchdog actually based in Israel, still remembering that this was an American report, and we all know in America it is the Jewish-run media.

OR:

2) It was a political decision to protect Ariel Sharon and the Israeli government from the responsibility for this military attack against Palestinian civilians.

During this 18-month Intifada, or uprising, IDF forces have killed more than 1,500 Palestinians. It is beyond dispute that Israel, using overwhelming force against an unarmed population resisting occupation, has committed many hundreds of reckless and indiscriminate murders where much resistance can not be made--many massacres.

That is the truth that Human Rights Watch, Israel and the U.S. government were so anxious to dismiss.

It is hard to find another example where even the use of the term massacre has been so disputed.

Some of the best-known massacres in history involved similar numbers of people killed, or even fewer, than the number that Human Rights Watch attributed to Jenin.

- In the 1770 there was the Boston Massacre, British troops shot into a crowd of protesters, killing five.

- In the 1914 there was the Ludlow Massacre in Colorado, the National Guard killed 20 coal miners and family members during a United Mine Workers strike.

- In the 1960 Sharpeville Massacre, apartheid troops in South Africa fired into a crowd of Black demonstrators, killing 69. The demonstrators were protesting against laws that restricted the movement of Africans, not unlike the restrictions now imposed by Israel on Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.

- In 1953, Ariel Sharon carried out the Qibya Massacre. That Israeli military operation killed 67 people, mainly women and children.

There has been no dispute among historians that these indiscriminate killings were massacres.

Ariel Sharon, who directed the Jenin massacre, is also guilty of far larger massacres. Even a commission set up by the Israeli government found him guilty of orchestrating the 1982 massacre at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in southern Lebanon, in which up to 2,000 civilians were killed.

It is a FACT that the Palestinian refugees in Jenin had been attacked with tanks and missiles and their homes then bulldozed into rubble. The Israelis claimed this was all part of the plan to get Arafat. But did the Israeli soldiers then move in to the refugee camps and MASSACRE the palestinians??

The Human Rights Watch based in Israel reported 52 Palestinians killed during the Israeli operation and devotes 42 pages to describing a whole series of possible war crimes and violations of international law that the Israeli forces committed. But all this is buried in its report.

The story that CNN, BBC, AP and all the other big-business media reported globally in headlines was that Human Rights Watch confirmed No Jenin massacre. As CNN reported on May 3, Human Rights Watch found no evidence that Israeli troops massacred Palestinian civilians in Jenin ... said Peter Bouckaert, senior researcher for the group and a member of the investigative team.

Who is this US Human Rights Watch and how were they able to gain access to Jenin for an inquiry at the very time that Israel was denying entry to a delegation chosen by the UN Security Council? How were they able to gain access to these areas???

Once this Watch declared that no massacre had occurred in Jenin, the demand for an inquiry and international action against Israeli crimes virtually disappeared.

But we all know the truth deep down. Even the zionists. There WAS a massacre. And when there's Israeli soldiers concerned, it's going be bad. However, it is all dismissed because a US based human rights watchdog, known to be part of the "Jewish-run media" in America, says there isnt. This despite the fact they were no where near Israel at the time. On the other hand, the one group that does have access claims there was a massacre.

CONCLUSIONS...

That's it? Where's the proof?

This whole article simply calls the UN massacre a cover-up by Jews who control the media.

Very nice! and Merkava , your asking for proof? i already gave you proof, here
pictures of the destruction and tons of artricles www.jeninjenin.org

I don't believe I've ever seen a more biasedly slanted report in all my readings on In Review. You have misrepresented so many facts here I guess I have to present them.

First, the “Jenin Massacre” was claims of the PA. Their original assertions for years were that Israel went in and massacred innocent civilians to the totals of over 500. The PA demanded an investigation by the UN.

After all investigations concluded, this was founded to be untrue. It’s people like you Anti-Zion & TWBR that refuse to accept any evidence that doesn’t say Israel is a bunch of butchers. Let’s hear what a Palestinian fighter fighting at the time had to say about this.

Palestinian Fighter Describes Fight In Jenin

Here he disputes your claims that Jenin was attacked with tanks and missiles. Let me post some excerpts from the above article of his statements.

oneofpeace, if u took your time to read some of the articles that i gave you , you would find out that the Palestinians only said that 500 were killed because they cant find them, some palestinian bodies are still buried under the destruction of the homes, some were even burried by the Israeli troops, they blocked ambulances that wanted to get the hurt civilians, those articles say that so far 52 bodies were found and about half of those were armed palestinians, 20 or 500, a massacre is a massacre, and about 20 civilians were killed in cold blood, and many more, there is a list of palestinian civilians to be found, but i dont belive the 500 palestinian thing neither, maybe it did happen maybe not, who knows, and as for the prisoned Palestinian, im sure that he wasnt at the Jenin camp 100% of the time, and under Israeli pressure he is bound to say what they order him to say, and one more thing, also, 5 reporters taped what happened in Jenin, not everything ofcorse, and the IDF took the cameras, and took their ids, also, the maker of the video Jenin,Jenin was shot and killed by the IDF when he was returning home from when he finished making the video, i think that we all have to watch this video and see the evidence of the Israeli cruelty. What are your thoughts on this? the IDF took very good evidence and Israel was the only country in the world to ban this video.

The Israeli war criminals did find a way to “move the bodies into Israel”, and in the months since the massacre, Israeli authorities and their minions in the Zionist-controlled mass-media have been trying to bury the story as well — even going so far as to deny that a massacre took place at all. They say triumphantly that “only” about 52 bodies were recovered, half of whom (they claim) were armed militants. They actually admit, therefore, that at least 26 victims were innocent civilian men, women and children. And yet, by some feat of twisted logic, it doesn’t qualify as a massacre. End of story. Forget about it. Sweep it under the blood-soaked rug, along with all the other Israeli massacres, war crimes, assassinations, torture and state terrorism of the last 55 years.






Afterwards, Moshe Nissim was so pleased with himself that he wrote an article for Yediot Aharonot, an Israeli newspaper, in which he boasted of his heroic exploits. Freely admitting that he had brought an ample supply of booze to fortify himself for the task, he nevertheless insisted that he saw no people underneath his bulldozer blade. Obviously however, considering what a hallucinatory state he must have been in, drinking bottles of whiskey and going without sleep for 75 hours, it’s not likely he would have found it easy to distinguish a human being from the broken rubble and clouds of dust, nor heard their desperate screams over the roar of the giant bulldozer engine. In an attempt to portray himself as a fine and righteous, moral human being, however, he claimed that he “felt sorry” for Palestinian children. And yet he admitted quite openly that he “had no mercy” for any of their parents he might have buried alive.

Moshe Nissim wrote further:

“Even a pregnant woman — shoot her without mercy, if she has a terrorist behind her. This is the way I thought in Jenin.”
This is the way most Israeli soldiers think, not just this drunken hypocrite.

This is a massacre, 22 dead unarmed civilians are found, more to be found, now tell me, how do u not expect retaliation for this act of terrorism?

You dont belive me? Check out the pictures of the destruction, im surprised that only 22 civilians died, since im sure that the IDF would not tell them to get out of their homes before they bomb it, here you go, pictures of dead bodies, destruction, and a lot of evidence, http://www.jenininquiry.org

I barely know where to start here.

Ok first TWBR, you keep consistantly giving me accounts of Jenin from biased websites. I guarentee you if I posted that Jenin wasn't a massacre and showed you I got it from tel-aviv.org you'd reject it on the strength of the name alone. So when I see you post your opinions from jeninjenin.org, naturally the site is suspect already.

Anti-Zion you continue to post nothing in my opinion but biased conjecture. You make Israel out to be these conspiritorial demons who's evil quests are to do nothing but kill Palestinians and take their land. How absurd is that statement that Israel sneaked into Jenin afterward and took all the bodies out they "massacred". You seem completely unable to balance events objectively. This position is totally unsupported by fact.

Last but not least, this was a military incursion. Civilian casualties were inevitable when those terrorist set up there bomb laboratories in those camps. In fact, that's exactly what they were hoping for. You can honestly sit there and believe that none of those civilians were killed by their own people wielding and shooting guns?

This shows a complete lack of objectivity on your behalves. As of such, I think you two are so convinced that every organization or country that doesn't cosign that Jenin was a slaughter is in a conspiracy. TWBR even dismisses a Palestinian fighter's own words when he said there was no such thing there citing that he was under Israeli pressures, completely making up an excuse for it so you can continue the mental support of these biased positions.

I tell you what, both of you. Find me a credible organization that backs your claims of Jenin being a massacre. Try to stay off Hamas.com when you do your searchings will ya?

Yes my mind did close when I saw those websites, especially when I clicked on them.

But one thing I noticed about all of your links you use here. They're all outdated. The earliest date I see from the above links is May, 2002.

Why not try this for size?

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33562

That's dated July, 2003. Also Luke, the UN has concluded that no such thing had taken place there.

As I posted about the UN laid responsibilities on both Palestinians and Israelis. In case you need to see the entire report.

http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/

So there you go for unbiased sites.

How can no such thing have not taken place when theres tons of pictures to prove the presence of tanks and the invasion of homes, killing civilians, and destroying homes, are theres still freaking bodies buried under the rubble, according to Israel they buried a number of palestinians. Ill get that link for you and show you when i get home.

TWBR you have no blame for the many terrorist that set up camp there in the first place?

Israel never disclaimed that they raised those houses. Many of the fighters were shooting from those houses, and yes they did knock them over with bulldozers. But I have seen no evidence that they used missiles and tanks. They went into that camp on foot and there was a fierce battle.

How is it that you blame israel for the deaths of all 52? You don't see this position as onesided TWBR? Why is it that you hold onto websites that obviously have motives to counter any claims by Israel?

Your pictures may be of that camp, but it still doesn't show any massacres. You claim there's bodies still under the rubble today while anti-zion claim Israel sneaked in and took the bodies out.

This is fact. If those Palestinian bombers hadn't set up in those camps, no battle would ever have occurred there. To simply believe that Israel went into those camps and indiscreminately shot civilians at will is being biased. While I do not take the claims lightly, if "massacres" had occured there, I do not believe it would be this much confusion about it and all due to Israel, the US, their biased organizations, and jewish medias. It sound like rantings of hate and anger.

If you don't think a website named jeninjenin.org has an ax to grind then you are not being realistic. You would accept nothing from me if I posted contradicting evidence from Israel.org now would you?

Find some recent links, and least withing the last 6 to 12 months TWBR. And look for some credible sources too. Luke provided some links, but they all were about a month to 2 months after Jenin occurred.

The link I provided isn't even a year old, and certainly has better perspectives than those that obviously wants to prove their point alone. Find balance TWBR. That's all I'm saying here.

So wait oneofpeace - your theory is that is WASN'T the israelis who killed the "52" Palestinians, but the Palestinians themselves??!! In your opinion, they killed themselves and each other just to make the Israelis look bad.

PATHETIC.

No doubt my friend, but Israel has to some how get the groups like Hamas and Hizb Allah to back off, after those 54 years of harrasment on the palestinians, they still got it in their systems so its going to be very hard, for there to be peace, both terrorist groups have to make a deal , Israel and The Palestinian Groups.

Im being neutral here, the fighting cant stop wit Israel alone, the Palestinians Groups also have to stop.

At last. A refreshing burst of common sense bursts out of luke90.

I have noticed how from a few months ago, this website is turning from a very pro-israel forum into a neutral/slightly pro-palestine attitude. The zionists are clearly losing the arguments repeatedly, many have become neutral. It seems like the only real zionist who can present a proper argument and back it up with sources is Merkava.

And as for oneofpeace - I dont think I've seen a bigger **** since beckyt (actually he was more of a nazi).

You claim to be neutral, but then you constantly defend Israel - sinking very low indeed

Well I think they did a pretty good job of disarming terrorists, although they couldn't stop all of them.

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT??

Do you think if America said that England should from now on prevent all murders around the country and if they don't their evil? You think we'd be able to do it?

No leader has total control over their people. What a pathetic argument Merkava.

By changing their "attitude", i suspect you mean reducing Checkpoints, demolishing walls, and pretty much reducing defensive measures.

No we were talking about how they do things, before demolishing walls be sure that there is something in those houses, defensive measures? How about reducing offensive attacks on the Palestinian civilians.

Professional people who have done more research on this topic than you and I can possibly imagine designed the road map to peace, which really was an excellent piece of work.

Huh? english please, i dont know what are you trying to say.

It's just a shame that the Palestinians never held their end of the bargain - disarming terrorists - the true source of the whole regions problems.

Look, the Palestinians depend on those groups to retaliate for what ever evil thing that Israel decides to do, the more houses they destroy the more anger comes up, the more civilians they kill the more anger comes up, the more they harrass the Palestinians in the checkpoints the more anger, Palestinians are tired of this situacion, they want freedom, they dont want to be under Israeli power, so if your going to call these groups terrorists and not call Israel terrorist then your not worthy of anybodies time.

I wouldn't say all Israelis are terrorists TWBR I would say that Ariel Sharon and many of the corrupt former Premiers of Israel and the zionists who brought about the creation of Israel, and of course all the members of the Stern Gang and Irgun.

I think the only way this conflict can be resolved is if Israel give up all the settlements, all of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem to be capital of a newly found Palestine, and perhaps a bit more to compensate 50 years of no land. Then, a Palestinians government should be set up to rule the Arabs.

In return, this new government (without Yasser Arafat, proper elections should take place) must try and tackle the terrorist groups, although I am sure that if Israel gave up all this land then there would be a lot less Palestinian terrorists.

I agree on most of your last post, except for the Jerusalem part. Jerusalem was founded more than 3000 years ago by King David (it is also called "Ir David" - city of David), and the palestinians have no claim for it.
Also, I do believe Ariel Sharon is corrupt, considering all the investigations going on against himself and his sons on the "Greek Island" affair, yet all the other Prime Ministers of Israel are not, nor were they ever corrupt. If you think otherwise, bring proof.

About "compensating 50 years of no land" - They could have had that land if they just agreed to the British and UN's proposal back in 1947, instead of being so busy in wanting Israel's destruction. They could have had almost 50% of Israel's land (correct me if i'm wrong about the exact numbers here), but they disagreed to it, despite the agreement of all the other parties (the israelis got around 20% of Israel in that agreement).

Also, if the palestinian leadership (mostly Arafat and his associates) had truly wanted a Palestinian state, they would have agreed to the proposals made by Prime Minister Ehud Barak a few years back, when he offered the Palestinian people all of what you said earlier, antizionist, yet they did not agree to it.

Quote:
Look, the Palestinians depend on those groups to retaliate for what ever evil thing that Israel decides to do, the more houses they destroy the more anger comes up, the more civilians they kill the more anger comes up, the more they harrass the Palestinians in the checkpoints the more anger, Palestinians are tired of this situacion, they want freedom, they dont want to be under Israeli power, so if your going to call these groups terrorists and not call Israel terrorist then your not worthy of anybodies time.

TWBR, Merkava is totally right here. Israel does all it's military activities in self defense, something that can NOT be said of the fatach, hamas, and islamid jihad, who blow up buses in Tel-Aviv, and murder dozens of people in each such activity.
One can indeed understand the Palestinian people's suffering, but they must also understand that it is caused by their own leadership, who keeps supporting terrorist activities against the state of Israel.
I personally think they should have their own sovereign state, but they won't get it while they're supporting terrorism. That would be considered by the Israeli leadership as Rewarding Terrorists, something that will not likely happen anytime soon, without atleast true efforts on the behalf of the palestinian leadership to try and stop Islamic terror on Israel.

Very infactual post, no offense scz.

Jerusalem was founded more than 3000 years ago by King David (it is also called "Ir David" - city of David), and the palestinians have no claim for it.

Well considering nearly all Palestinians are muslims:

1) They used to live in Jerusalem anyway (even the non-muslim Palestinians)

2) They believe this is where Yishmael was 'almost' sacrificed by Avraham, Jews believe this however they think it was Yitzchak who was almost sacrificed there

3) This is where the Dome of the Rock is situated, on the Temple Mount, the third most holiest place in the whole world for muslims

So by saying that Jerusalem is of no significance to the Palestinians is an utter lot of nonsense.

About "compensating 50 years of no land" - They could have had that land if they just agreed to the British and UN's proposal back in 1947, instead of being so busy in wanting Israel's destruction.

Assuming you were an Arab leader, would YOU have given up over 55% rulership and soveirenty of your land to a small minority people in your land who owned under 7% of the land and numbered under a third of the entire population??

They could have had almost 50% of Israel's land (correct me if i'm wrong about the exact numbers here), but they disagreed to it, despite the agreement of all the other parties (the israelis got around 20% of Israel in that agreement).

Yes, the numbers are wrong there. If you are thinking of the same plan I am thinking of, then they could have had just under 33% of the land which they had been living in for 2000 years.

Also, if the palestinian leadership (mostly Arafat and his associates) had truly wanted a Palestinian state, they would have agreed to the proposals made by Prime Minister Ehud Barak a few years back, when he offered the Palestinian people all of what you said earlier, antizionist, yet they did not agree to it.

No he was NOT offered what I mentioned earlier. If you look into the treaty, he was given a partial offer of the West Bank and there were all sorts of restrictions. And he never offered it to the Palestinian people, but to Yasser Arafat.

Israel does all it's military activities in self defense, something that can NOT be said of the fatach, hamas, and islamid jihad, who blow up buses in Tel-Aviv, and murder dozens of people in each such activity.

You reckon? Ever heard of the massacres in Lebanon, the Qibya massacre, the retaliations killing so many more civilians??

One can indeed understand the Palestinian people's suffering, but they must also understand that it is caused by their own leadership, who keeps supporting terrorist activities against the state of Israel.

More 'conspiracy' theories against the PLO. You might not have known this, but the PLO actually fight the Palestinian terror groups in the struggle for power. And the PLO constantly denounce all attacks.



Please check up your facts before writing such "ludicrous" posts.

Casualties that ISRAEL suffered? That ISRAEL suffered?

Let's get one thing straight here. Massacre or no massacre, it was the Israeli soldiers who went into the Palestinian villages. Any soldiers that were shot was the fault of Israel, as they were the ones who sent them in there in the first place.

If Israel destroys the Dome of Rock, there will be a WWIII, and not only they want to destroy it, but they also destroy churches, so the Church of Nativity will be destroyed as well.

So by your accounting, the suicide bombers that go into Israel and kill them are committing massacres too? You seem to justify this therefore having double standards.

Of course it's no massacre! What a ridiculous assumption.

Having said that, suicide bombings are clearly wrong and although there not what the dictionary would define as a "massacre," they're still acts of terror. Although I understand why the Palestinians are doing it, I think they're tactics are very flawed. If they hit military targets instead of civilians all the time I think they would get a lot more sympathy.

1. Yes, the offer was proposed to Yasser Arafat, but Yasser Arafat represents the Palestinian People. And yes, he WAS offered nearly all of west bank, and parts of East Jerusalem.

2. Jerusalem was founded by Jews, and is therefore theirs. The Palestinians came way later, after the Jews were banished from Israel. Not to mention Jerusalem is the 1st most holy place to Jews.

Israel did not use Tanks or Helicopters in the combat of the so called "Jenin Massacre". Israel did infact use D-9 Bulldozers. All combat in Jenin was done using infantry.

TWBR it's statements like that that makes me question your position and motives. Why would Israel want to destroy that rock?

Somehow you're convinced they want to destroy Islam and every Muslim in the world. That is not a realistic view of things.

ok ok,

March 2, 1982 Armed Jewish settlers and students from Kiryat Arba raided the Al Aqsa Mosque from the Silsilah gate, after assaulting the guards. One was injured

March 30, 1982 Jewish terrorists called the Temple Mount Faithful group, accompanied by two Knesset members, Guela Cohen and Ben Porat, entered the Al Aqsa Mosque yard in a provocative manner

April 3, 1982 A group of Jewish terrorists tried to raid the Al Aqsa Mosque from the Dung Gate, but were prevented by Waqf (religious Trust) guards. One of the guards was shot

April 8, 1982 The Temple Mount Faithful group of Jewish terrorists placed a fake bomb and a threatening letter in front of the Aqsa Mosque door. The bomb consisted of a transistor radio and a timing device. The guard of the mosque found and dismantled it

April 11, 1982 An Israeli soldier, American-born Allan Goodman, entered the Dome of the Rock Mosque and started firing shots randomly. One person was killed and dozens were injured

May 12, 1982 A sergeant from the Jerusalem municipal police trespassed on Al Aqsa Mosque land. He claimed he was trying to verify allegations made by Geula Cohen that there were illegal buildings in the Mosque area

May 22, 1982 Jewish terrorists entered the Haram al Sharif area, distributing leaflets and inciting Jews to go to Pray in the Al Aqsa Mosque area

June 4, 1982 Terrorist Jews sent a letter to the Islamic Council threatening the demolition of Al Aqsa Mosque

July 7, 1982 The Temple Mount Faithful Jewish terrorist group entered the Mosque yard to hold a demonstration in support of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon

July 28, 1982 Armed Jewish Yeshiva students seized three apartments near the Al Aqsa Mosque, and left only after they were ordered to evacuate by police

March 5, 1982 An explosive charge was found on the road leading to the Al Aqsa Mosque, near the entrance of Bab al Majles

January 14, 1984 Israeli tourist guides handed out false maps to tourists showing two Jewish altars in place of the two mosques on Haram al Sharif

January 27, 1984 At night a group of terrorist Jews entered the mosque with explosives, intending to blow up Al Aqsa Mosque

March 24, 1984 An terrorist Jewish group publicly declared its intention to perform the Passover prayers and animal sacrifice in the Al Aqsa Mosque

March 29, 1984 The Israeli Archaeological Department of the Ministry of Religion constructed a tunnel, one meter in length, two meters wide and ten meters deep, near the western part of the Al Aqsa Mosque near the Dung Gate. The tunnel endangered the Islamic Council Building

April 23, 1984 Terrorist Jews entered the Al Aqsa Mosque yard, holding weapons, during the prayer time. They proceeded to commit immoral and indecent acts on the holy site

September 25, 1984 Members of the Temple Mount Faithful Jewish terrorist group attempted to enter the Al Aqsa Mosque yard to pray, but were prevented by Waqf guards

January 8, 1986 Some Knesset members accompanied by other extremist Jews tried to hold prayers in the Al Aqsa Mosque yard

January 9, 1986 The Temple Mount Faithful terrorist Jews entered the Al Aqsa Mosque yard, after hoisting the Israeli flag at the Dung Gate. Police removed the flag

January 14, 1986 When Rabbi Eliezer Waldman trespassed into the Al Aqsa Mosque yard, hundreds of Muslim youth demonstrated against his entry. Military forces used tear gas to disperse the demonstrators and arrested 19 persons

January 19, 1986 The Kach movement, led by Meir Kahane, violently attempted to enter the Al Aqsa Mosque yard. They were prevented by border guards, and detained for one hour and then released

May 12, 1988 Israeli soldiers opened fire on a peaceful Muslim march at the Haram, killing and wounding about 100 Palestinians

August 8, 1990 The Israeli authorities committed a grisly massacre at the Al Aqsa Mosque, killing 22 worshippers and injuring over 200

July 25, 1995 The Israeli High Court of Justice allows Jews to pray at the “Temple Mount”, sparking widespread protests among Muslims.

I'm not sure myself. Every Jew I know, and that number runs into thousands (living in North London) wants Muslims to die and Islam to be destroyed. They also often accuse the New Testament of all "lies" and say that we are the 'chosen people.' If that's what Jews think, then I think the Israelis are probably worse...

Was it not Golda Meir who once denyed the ENTIRE existence of the Palestinian people?

TWBR, I can bring you a list atleast four times (understatement) that length of all the terrorist acts committed against Israel in the past two years.

Do you even see what's transpiring here TW? It seems as if you have some source that's intent is to blame Israel for everything, so you paste that into these forums.

By the way, Palestinians and Arabs have sat idlely by and did nothing in these same years. They just sit there and wait for Israel to come in and beat and kill them.


Antizion maybe in your neck of the woods that's so, but not in mine and I know many jews as well. I've even been to their synagogue. There's a lot of misunderstandings going on because both sides don't communicate and are blinded by teachings of the other.

The "Jews want to destroy Islam" sounds like recruitment strategies for extremist to me.

You think that's all? That was just a summary. Attacks on Palestinians are on a daily basis, but you never hear about them because they are so frequent.

SCZ, after debating (if that's what you want to call it, its more like mud slinging with him), ive come to the conclusion that it is a waste of time. If you dismiss his point he'll just ignore you and change the topic, often referring to pointless topics and technicalities which have nothing to do with the subject.

Although he does an awesome job of making the other side look ridiculous

They're not racist, actually I have heard about 3 different rabbis saying that without Palestinians the world would be a better place. My cousins are ultra-ultra religious and they hate the muslims. It's natural, jews and muslims hate each other, although we try to deny it.

Also, it also says something because Palestinians CANT defend its citizens, israel can - remember that.

Luke, you make good points, certainly ones that makes me think. I don't agree with one thing however. Because Israel is the mightiest country they shouldn't be held to any higher standard than Palestine, or better said like this. They both should be held to the same standards of human decencies as the other.

This is my point with TWBR in which he seems to not get the picture from where I sit.

Another thing, I believe in pre-emtive strikes. If Israel was mounting to raid a Palestinian area for no reason and a suicide bomber went in and blew them up before they got started, then that to me is preventive measures. However if a suicide bomber is making jackets in a refugee camp so he can blow up a bus in Israel, then Israel has the same right to go in and prevent this from happening.

I think it was pre-emptive in my judgement. I wasn't there to see the fighting first hand so I have to gather what I can from reports and common sense. I don't believe Israel's accounting all the time, but I do believe they went into those camps on foot and not with tanks and missiles.

But for one side to totally blame the other is wrong in my opinion. There's enough to blame each other, but I posted yesterday that we haven't seen any incursions by Isreal and watch, we will see a suicide bomber, and today I see on the news just that.

This eye for an eye just leaves everyone blind in the end and pointing fingers.