From know on

Israel & Palestine Forum

Since Merkava and oneofpeace never mention the attacks done on the Palestinians, i will use this thread to post every single attack that happens on both sides, and including full info, using links from Al'Jazeera ( many of you guys call it biased but its really not, no one has shown me how it is biased and not only are they non-biased, but they have interviews with Good Jewish leaders on the Israel and Palestine situacion) and i will use CNN (its known to be biased as well, and it can be easily proven).

good job and mahbrouk to your efforts!

One the contrary TWBR, you don't mention the cause and affect. Also you subscribe to suicide bombings as legitimate ways of self defense.

I'll tell you now that Israel does attack Palestinians, but they have some rationale to it however wrong some of their methods may be. Simply bombing resturants, buses, and malls have no rationale other than pure hate.

So you post all you want. I hope you're in position to accept the truth once it's presented to you.

I get you and some points are right, but when it comes to cause and effect, its like this, Israel attacks , Kills a couple of Palestinians , - then in return a suicide bombing happens, trust me, you will see this happen.

Quite true. Many zionists say it is the other way round, Israel retaliate, but I believe it is the other way round. Although, no1 can ever be sure, it just seems to be like one long cycle.

Why can't you two see that this is not onesided but a vicious cycle? You expect Israel not to respond when they're getting their buses and resturants bombed?

There is a fundamental lack of objectivity here people.

Yeah Israel responds to suicide bombings, and they target the leaders, but you have to understand that these suicide bombings are done whenever Israel strikes, Israel has killed too many innocent civilians , 3 times more than Israeli civilians, a suicide bombing is preventable and its rare, Palestinian civilians cant protect them selves from air strikes and tanks, you have to understand that every single Palestinian is suffering, Israelis are not, according to the Discovery Channel from a recent poll, 85% of the Israelis are living well.

I havent been able to post anything this week, thank god that no attacks have been done against the Palestinians and the Israelis.

TWBR, it's not Israel's fault that Palestinians aren't living much about the poverty line.

Look, Arab countries control over 66% of the world resources, oil. They all contribute to Palestine in some way financially, but the money's been squandered and diverted to terrorist orgs.

The problem with Palestine is its leaders. They in my opinion is the reason why Palestine has not advanced economically. They pass the blame to Israel and the US indirectly and this isn't the complete truth.

There's an ugly history there we both agree with that. There are reasons for hard feeling on both sides of the table, and the fight over the land can be resolved if both sides are willing to except that the other is going no where. If one side doesn't except the other, then there is no peace.

Yes, I believe Israel's heavy handedness is contributing to the suicide bombings. But those bombings come whether Israel attacks or not. If Israel attacks, Palestinian terrorist say it's in retaliation. If Israel doesn't attack, they still bomb and say it's because Israel is in the West Bank. They bomb, and in return get bombed, then cry in the streets "revenge".

This in my opinion is counter-productive in their plight for oppression relief.

Im really mad at the Arab country leaders, they dont want to accept Palestinians as citizens and they throw them in garbage refugee camps.
And for the suicide bombings, i have never seen a suicide bombing done with no Israeli attack being the cause of it, if u do, show me, we'll see what happens from know on, hopefully nothing will.

Exactly TWBR. Suicide bombings are preventable. In fact, out of every 200 suicide bombs 198 of them are stopped! On the other hand, the Palestinians dont have 3 and a half billion spent on them every year.

correct that to 5 billion and a half, there are tons of countries out there that would really use this money to save lifes, but not, its used to take away lifes.

No, its 3 and a half billion, the figure is always rounded up to make the muslims look better.

And besides the point, did you know that the amount of foreign aid America give Israel every year is more that they give the entire continent of Africa together??

Never knew that, Africa really needs that money, even though there is no cure for AIDS. They can save hundreds of lives by giving them more money.

Antizion I made this point to Merk in another thread. He said Israel uses less powerful missiles when they strike terror org leaders in public places. My response to him was that this is no consolation. So you dont kill 10, you only kill 4. This is still unacceptable.

No difference with suicide bombers. You say out of 200, 198 is stopped. I think that number is highly inflated, but still that's no consolation either. Israel is constantly trying to stop them at all cost and this has contributed to much of the decline.

Also, you two have underlined tones of animosity about the US's support for Israel. TWBR goes as far as to blame them for some of Israel's incursions. Israel is a superpower in that region. Much of their accomplishments militarily are of their own doing. Arabs, many of whom still oppress their own people with lack of freedoms, chose the Soviet Union and was receiving the same support from them early on, but the Soviet block crumbled, the USA didn't.

My points here is there seems to be complete lack of objectivity here on both sides when I read these threads. Some believes Israel can do no wrong, and some believe they can do no right. Either way, it's extreme and not the case.

Israel's economy is flurishing while Palestine's isn't. That is due to leadership. Decisions have not been made in the best interest of Palestinians but of individuals. To simply blame Israel and their supporters for all the griefs of Palestinians in being blinded to certain facts.

Last but not least, I do not believe that Arafat, or any one authority has control of Palestine. He is totally incapable of bringing peace at will. He spawned such a big mess, that he no longer controls it. Even if he signed a peace deal, it would not last more than a week because one of the many terrorist orgs he allowed to run rampid will make sure of this. If he made an honest effort to crack down on them, they will fight each other rather than agree to peace.

The mentality of Palestine is a big stumbling block in the peace efforts.

I mostly agree with what you said there, however I have to disagree with one point you made there.

Israel's economy at the moment certainly aint flourishing.

Anti-zionist.

Israel's economy is still easily in the top 30, where as the Palestinians don't even have an economy.

Yes because they don't have a country, because the Jews took that away from them.

Oh No antizionist, you cant classify the animals as Jewish, The Jewish religion never supported this, classify them as Israelis or Zionists.

They could have had their country Three times now, but their leaders rejected the offer each time.

And I think its hilarious that Anti-zionist, a supposed Jew, refers to them as "The Jews".

Something fishy about your Jewishness.

No thats the second, the 1st one was the killing of a palestinian. Check the link in this forum.

But that one wasn't posted in this thread. When I said "in your list" I meant this thread, which you opened in order to maintain a list. You should add that link here, since according to this report, A Palestinian suicide bomber last struck in Jerusalem on January 29, killing 11 people. That would make the Israeli action the first on either side in nearly a month, followed shortly by this bombing, which would support your argument that the Palestinian actions are in retaliation for those of Israel.

Did you the Suicide Bombing thread? All sources excluding CNN said that this was in retaliation to a killing of 15 palestinians in Gaza.

What are you trying to say Merkava? That I'm not Jewish?? Twice you have made that allegation, and I actually proved it to you afterwoods by translating your stupid sentences into Ivrit.

Basically, you know that arguing the Israel conflict against a Jew is very hard to do. Actually, it is the hardest sort of person you can argue against where the Jews are concerned.

And what do you expect me to say instead of "the jews took the land" - "us jews" "my grandparents"

I'd love to hear your suggestions merkava, although I am extremely disappointed and surprised that you have yet again made that allegation that I am a fraud for the third time. I suppose you'll want to test my jewishness some more. Come on then. Don't make me translate some shitty hebrew sentences, ask me a question which you reckon only Jews would know.

Luke I believe that the problem today lies mostly with Palestinian terror groups. There are so many factions of them today that split off other factions that split of the spitted factions. They multiply by dividing and the latter groups are more extreme than the former.

In order to have a more product society Israel had to hunt down and get rid of their extremist groups. This will have to be done in Palestine otherwise there will be no peace. Whenever concessions are given on both sides, it's usually an extremist group that says no and continues the violence. Too many heads and no tails.

Let me ask you a question. If Israel stops firing missiles at Hamas leaders in civilian areas, do you think suicide bombings will stop? Remember the infatada started when Sharon visited Jerusalem. Anything seems to set off violence with them.

In my opinion Israel doesn't help with strikes into civilian areas. However, there's no way TWBR can convince anyone that Israel just wakes up one day and decides "today I'm going to invade a refugee camp and kill some civilians" and simply does this and go home. Though I do like the kid, I think he's totally detached from reality and under the influence of Arabs/pro Palestinians.

Yes Luke, I agree with both sides using force. Contrary to beliefs that it takes two to tangle, I believe it only takes one bad apple. If one side refused peace, then peace will never come about.

I believe the Palestinians could have had a state long ago, but their leaders opted for support of terror simply because of the hate they have for them. Now I believe even Arafat wishes he'd accepted the deal when Clinton presented it to them. Today, there would have been a statehood called Palestine.

No, your your jumping to conclusions too fast, i belive, i stated a couple of times that i hold Hamas and all those groups 100% to blame for the suicide bombings, but Israel does things to make them do it, so they are to be blamed as well.

What do Israel have them under hypnosis or something? Don't you know everytime you say a terrorist group is wrong you have "but" in your statements? Buts negate everything before it TW.

I don't believe Israel created anything but pure hate has created terrorist rationals. I'll never understand suicide bombings, nor will I sympathize with such actions by whomever carries them out.

But a question for you TW. Can you simply say that Hamas or any of the other scores of terrorist groups that target civilians intentionally are wrong without tying the same sentence to something Israel's done?

Hamas or any of the other palestinian groups are wrong, i hate suicide bombing, will never support it, but im just fed up when people say that they are the only terrorists and not Israel, hatred created them, hatred which Israel has been causing since its formation. Why cant Palestinians be mad? Sure suicide bombing is not the best way, thats what hatred of 57 years comes to, instead of Israel trying to protect its citizens they look for more suicide bombings by attacking the Palestinian civilians, like i said, they need to focus 100% of their time and effort to take out the Palestinian groups, but they havent been doing so, they have been killing more civilians then armed Palestinans ( including all of the massacres ). This creates hatred and the Palestinian groups will release it in a horrible way on the Israeli civilians, Israel just fuels it, instead of trying to end it.

that but, wasnt based on the suicide bombings........

Yes, the bombings are abominable. But just as Oneof gets frustrated with TW and others on the Palestinian side of the argument constantly defending the bombings and blaming Israel, why do so many of those on the Israeli side (Oneof being an exception) refuse to accept the fact that, however horrible the terrorism may be, Israel does plenty to nurture those young suicide bombers, and to encourage the hatred?

Again, the attitude, and the attitude is found on both sides! I'm largely with TW and antizionist, and it's primarily because Israel is the bully. They have the land, they have the power, they have the money. If they treated the Palestinians with dignity and respect, if they made sincere gestures to return a fair portion of the land back to the Palestinians, I'd find the Palestinians' response (suicide bombings) far harder to accept. While I in no way support the bombings, I don't see any more effective way to respond to the situation. And although I've said this several times in different threads, I have not yet seen anyone provide a better alternative.

Sorry (honestly) Merkava, two of those links would work on my system. Windows Media Player told me I didn't have the driver needed, and when I clicked on the link to see if I could obtain it, nothing happened.

Perhaps God doesn't want me to be distracted.

Fortunately, (the first - .mpg) one did work. Naturally, there was no indication of the source, obviously one with a pro-Israel bias, but as I watched those Palestinian kids, I was proud. Particularly when the young man said "**** you" to the camera crew with his body. These kids don't deserve to spend their lives barricaded and disrespected, and it's heartening to see that they fully intend to fight for their homeland. I hope that every one of them is able to experience a peaceful life in a country that is theirs. I regret that some of them will most likely die before that happens. Thanks for sharing that with me, and sorry I could only view one of them. Perhaps when I win my free trip to Israel and the Palestinian Territories, you and I can meet some of them!!!

Regardless, my point was that Israel does contribute to these young Palestinians' willingness to die for their homeland. You mention society itself but don't explain that. Based on the video I was able to view, it appears you place the blame solely on Arafat, or on the Palestinians themselves. You honestly don't believe that Israel's actions don't contribute?!!

Merkava, I'm still waiting for your answer to my question....

Merkava i also felt proud for those kids that were holding the guns, that is a symbol that every Palestinian is willing to fight the occupation and harrasment of the Palestinians.
I wonder why they dont make a video about the Israeli terrorism, oh wait, thats right, CNN doesnt have them, oh well........too bad.......lets try next time.

Those training camps are not for the kids to go into Israel and start to do it on the Israeli citizens, its for them to be able to protect them selves from the Israeli army, incase they want to do a daily raid or do a massacre.
This video is aimed to make people hate the Palestinians.

But i dont agree on how the Palestinian extrimists are teaching their children to hate the Israelis and wish death of them, not a good thing for them. A 5yr old handling a rifle is not a very good idea, giving these kids ideas about killing Israelis is not a good thing either, this is what happens when u harrass people in vicious ways, they go to the extreme and pass on their hatred.

Oh and about the Palestinians using rocks to fight off the Israeli army being called terrorism? This video is intended to make people laugh.

What happened to my pictures?

http://avpv.tripod.com/49.jpg

http://avpv.tripod.com/Fatah-70.jpg

Second try. They were there when I posted the firs time.

PM me showing them....

http://avpv.tripod.com/49.jpg

http://avpv.tripod.com/Fatah-70.jpg

Copy/paste these into a new browser.

none of them work...

Copy the links, then paste them into your browser TW. It works that way.

Both work for me. Or put your cursor over the image, select the "Copy Link Address" function [perhaps on the right-click menu], then paste it into your browser URL location.

Im telling you, they are preparing those kids to battle the Israeli troops when they decide to go into their territory, they are not training them to go into and kill Israeli citizens, they are training them to defend them selves against the Israeli army, if you dont see it that way then too bad for you.

Since when have Palestinian kids gone into Israeli territory and started attacking Israelis? It's absurd!

It is evident that these kids are being trained in case future massacres/raids or what ever you want to call them are carried out in Palestinian refugee camps.

And I'm sure if you were a parent of a ten year old child, and you were a Palestinian, you'd sure as hell train your child to be one hell of a fighter, because you'd know that he'd need that training one day to save his life from the brutal Israeli soldiers.

Some of you may think, "What the hell is wrong with these people? If i was a Palestinian i would be sending my kids to school", well in this situacion, a Palestinian has two choices, Be ready for any Israeli attacks or Be ready to die from an Israeli attack.

Why are you now dodging the issue? You know as much as I do that the children are not being trained with the guns so they can run into Israeli territory and kill people (like you seem to think) but so they can protect themselves from "another Jenin" (despite the fact you reckon this never happened). Basically, they are being trained to save their lives.

Now the Jenin i admit wasnt a big massacre, but yea, many children died so its understandable.

Their not taught to be martys, are you blind? They are taught to protect themselves from the evils of the Israeli army.

I don't buy it TWBR. I'm sure many of them will fight when incursions occur, but many of them will be in the hills as snipers, and going into settlements kicking down doors and shooting families in their beds where they were sleeping.

What they need to do is teach the men how to fight not put arms in little children's hands. It sends the wrong message. So when the incursions come, and Israel fires back at one of these little children, the pictures you will be posting on this site and the way Palestinians will portray it is that Israel is slaughtering little innocent Palestinian kids in a "massacre".