Why are there homosexuals?

Culture & Society Forum

Why is it that out of all the creatures on Earth, it is humans that overtly contain homosexuals within it's race?

heh - this seems like something my nine year old would ask me, but I like the thought of entertainging your question for the moment.

Now perhaps someone from the "homosexuality side" would explain this differently, but my own take is two-fold: genetic anomalies and learned behavior.

On the genetic side are actual gene mutations that result in imbalanced hormones shifting tendencies to be either more female or more male, etc which induces a hormonal attraction to the same sex. These are the "flamers" you see who seem like they truly are women trapped in a man's body, or vice versa.

On the learned behavior side, you've got a combination of influential sources that serve as role models to anyone who is receptive to them. Some BAD experience with the opposite sex or a parent as a kid or teen, some GOOD experience with someone of the same sex that seemed exciting, an out-spoken gay community encouraging acceptance, a very open mind and loving disposition - any of a number of factors can add up to someone "deciding" to lead a homo/bi-sexual lifestyle regardless of genetic composition.

Those are the only two things I really see driving this whole thing. Of interest to me is the genetic side because were such mutations to occur in the animal kingdom, based on natural selection they would be eliminated as quickly as they show up. Humans are the only animals that have largely insulated themselves from the processes of natural selection that would weed out genetic deficiencies such as physiological problems which require external support to get through life. Animals do not receive external support and hence the genetically weak die: survival of the fittest. A genetic mutation which induces inverse sexual behavior would not propagate because the animal would not procreate. Humans have a number of ways to circumvent this natural selection however, allowing genetic diseases and (in my opinion) undesirable mutations to continue to enter the genepool of the general populous rather than preventing procreation.

I have a few ideas about this myself.

I most believe that homosexuality is not unlike a virus and that it can be treated, corrected and/or cured. That may offend many or some. Please understand I do not mean it in a discriminating or hateful way. I think there are many levels of homosexuality ranging from the in your face type that some like to overwhelm the public with during gay pride parades and like in some Vermont and Massachusetts schools systems where groups have been brought in to explain (or maybe foward) the gay agenda/movement. It ranges from the extreme overt type to the hypocritically, in-public homophobic tough guy who is really a closet homosexual away from his peers.

Back to why there are homosexuals though...I agree with what Sean Kelly has said in his descriptive learned behavior explanation. It results from good and bad prior experiences and from the environments in which people grow up in and go through in life. More on this later....

Two words: Alien Experimentation...

Are you all serious? Please apply your logic as to what "causes" heterosexuality and you will see how ridicilous your theory is.

There are homosexuals for the same reason there are heterosexuals, because we are born. All animals are born, that is why they exist.

outsider... Grant (gaboman) is just joking around!

I like what you said... right on We are simply because we were born.

Oh I know KJ, I actually found Gabo's post the funniest in this thread.

Gabo... are they cute aliens?

outsider, will you PLEASE stick with your own 'kind'

But KJ, I think the green ones are really HOT!

You would... Oh well, as long as you put the Blue one's on the side, for me.

The BLUE ones! I knew I saw you slumming on Pluto last week.

Damn it... you weren't supposed to have seen that!! I was trying to be 'sly.'

Hey outsider... did you know that we were 'contained by humans'?

You know I wondered why the planetary alliance would not tell us about Area 15. I was sure it was humans that crash landed in 1702. Ahhhh... I was just a teenager then.

so much for this topic..

You two, you forgot you turn your extra-terresterial encoders on.

All the "other kinds" are seeing every word!

Why is it necessary to have 50 thousand homosexual threads?

Cant people just live in peace and be who they are without having to answer for themselves on a daily basis?

If you dont understand that people are just born that way...then you'll just never understand it at all.

Just accept it already...you cant "cure" it....

Homosexuality isnt a disease.

Case closed.

Mystic I agree............... but here is my answer

homosexuals are homosexuals because they are born that way.............. I don't care what idiots say but this is true........ just the same as heterosexuals are born heterosexuals.......... to blame it on other things and make them sound like animals is INSULTING!!!!

God I am so TIRED of this discussion................ let them live their lives as they WILL.......... it seems I am going to have to be overly-protective over my little brother if this is the attitude most people have................. or maybe I will just move with him to Frisco??!!

No, Sean let me clear the air out:

#1 When I posted that I was "tired of this discussion" I meant that I am sick and tired of the insults and the back-handed demeaning names some people resort to in the threads about homosexuality......... by my comment I meant just that, that I am sick of hearing it...... if someone has something intelligent to say then say it by all means but when all you see is the same comment of stupid or wrong or immoral.....well you tend to get the same feeling, that it is another thread where people can once again bash the gay.......... this one has started out intelligently so far but let's see how it turns out in a few days

#2 I understood what you said in your first post.......... to me it IS genetic coding/dna that makes one gay in my experience and opinion.............. I know enough gay people to know that they are born into that lifestyle. I never meant to jump dowm your throat but maybe we can find other words or examples of comparison............ after some of the things and feelings some people have on the forum over the homosexual issue, it would help ............... but it's just that, MO.............. anyhow sorry about it

Erika

I guess we go back to alien probing once again....................

I don't think this is a repeat question to begin with. All of the other threads on related topics include:

Is it right or wrong to be gay? (morality)

Should gays be allowed to marry / join the military? (policy)

Does such-and-such make me gay? (confusion)

The current question I took as a more general "where does homosexuality come from?" which is not related to any of the above topics. And if the question has popped up in the more generalized morality debate, it was probably buried under pages of other postings and not a clear part of the discussion. I find the question perfectly valid.

Furthermore, I taken to cracking down on duplicate topic postings over the last few weeks specifically because I don't want to see the same discussion started over and over. I'm a member of other forums that deal with this problem and it annoys the hell out of the regulars to be bombarded by the same questions over and over from newbies. Rest assured that same topics will eventually be merged to be integrated into a cohesive conversation as it should have been in the first place, if not simply closed with a redirect to the conversation that is already in progress.

And I guess my reaction to you is based on your having been here for a while I hoped for a bit more tolerance where if someone wants to discuss a topic, by all means let them. The mixup lies in that you regard this as a topic already covered where I see this topic as fresh. I just don't want to see anyone, particularly relatively newer members, discouraged from expressing themselves and/or asking questions in the forums.

Again, I will repeat myself. List all of the reasons why someone is heterosexual. You can equally apply that to homosexual.

If being gay is learned then so is being straight. If someone chooses to be gay then you can choose to be straight.

And how is it a learned behavior when someone (many gays) grow up in very rural areas and small towns in heterosexual families and heterosexual communities? Who on earth did they learn how to be gay from? This is where the environmental influences argument breaks down.

Very good point outsider.

Thanks sayzak21. Welcome to the controversy.

50% of everything we are is Nature and 50% is Nurture. This is a psychological fact. So I get where you are coming from. But Sean you make it sound like some dudes cousin raped him so now he's gay. Or maybe dude is bad with girls, so he turns to men. That is how I was reading what you worded.

Nature and nurture have a lot to do with who we are. That is why men who are gay get married (to women) to try to hide who they are. They are told by society and their family (this is by the way the nurture part), that it is wrong. So they add some heavy percentage points to the Nurture side and live an unhappy life. And I might add they destroy the happiness their wife could have had with a straight husband. Sorry had to add that.

So if that is what you mean by environmental or learned behavior, I agree. Nurture plays a big part.

And the only comment I have to farm boys and animals is, males have more testosterone, they will try anything. Females rarely try these things.

I think that you think that all gays are biased in their opinion. Believe it or not I am not like that. I can be very objective in a discussion. So my opinion as a gay man should not be considered unreliable just because I am gay.

And believe it or not Sean, gays have had to look at it from the "other" side. That's how it works when you are gay. You are raised as a heterosexual, you are expected to be and act like a heterosexual, but through a lot of critical thinking and feelings, and attraction, you realize you are not a heterosexual.

I've lived both lives. This is the one that feels like the natural one to me. I'm only a militant nut when someone shoves hate in my face. Otherwise I am happy to discuss.

And I do have to agree with you on many sources of information. ONE source is not real smart, but neither is a very BIASED source.

I used to believe we were gay because of nurture and not nature. But now I know that no matter who you are, or what you are it is a 50/50 split. It's how you keep the split in balance that matters.

Once again Sean Kelly expresses the exact sentiments that I have on the issue.

It WAS exactly my intention for the question to be taken as a more in general type.

Excellent post Outsider! I don't think that it's a learned behavior either. I definitely think it's a gene thing.

It all goes back to religion vs. science.

I believe it is possible to have faith in both, however hard it may be to see religion being actual and accurate history.

True Sordidmesh, that's why so many philosophers are athiests. They pick apart religion and compare it to fact until they determine that there is no God.

That's not what I think, but some philosophers feel that way.

religion vs. scienece is really religion vs. religion

but anyway

reasons that I am heterosexual:
1) chicks are hot

now, maybe not in all cases is homosexuality a learned behavior, but there are definitely some people who turn gay.

Sometimes it's because they have super-Catholic parents and devote their lives to pissing them off.
Sometimes it's because of a bad experience.
I'm sure there are other reasons too.

But the point is not all homosexuals were born that way.

Well, it could probably also be said that not all straights are born that way.
There are many that could be gay, but their upbringing has made them straight.

You do have a good point though, Dekka. There are more than likely many who have turned to a same sex relationship due to their upbringing, or situations that have arisen during their childhood. For me, I have dated men, and I was even married. But, since I was a child, I have always liked girls. When I was younger than 10 years old I can remember that I liked women. But, I didn't have a true understanding what that feeling was. I couldn't identify it... and then, when I started to understand/comprehend it, I buried it. Why... because of my upbringing, my friends, society. I came out in 1988, and it was NOT easy. I was a scared 17 year old.

Anyway... I just wanted to say that you had a good point.

Oh, and I'm with you... chicks are HOT!

My best friend is gay. I've said such. Some choose not to believe that but oh well. Anyway,I grew up with Alan,and spent virtually every second with him. Spent some time in the Marines and when I got out things returned as usual. We lived together and were as close as any brother combo in America(still are). Well, as expected we went out every chance we had in search of woman. He had a couple girls Friends in his life,and they cheated on him,treated him poorly etc just like the rest of us have experienced. I did not know he was gay until he tried to make a move on me while I slept. I guess I was about 26 then. Shocked to say the least. Is it because of failed relationships? Maybe. The point is this man is a very manly man and you could not tell of his sexual preference. Even if you lived with him. I personally believe that he doesn't like the basic make-up of a woman. Lets face it. Most can be *****es, Controlling and once involved with them ,some(most I've seen) try to cut your involvement with your friends. I must admit that when I go to Gay bars with him it is a very fun experience. I feel like gays USUALLY lead a happier life. He didn't want to live in a way that wasn't as "fun". I understand this. I get along with him & John extremely well,and never do we do anything but smile,laugh and have fun. I envie this life as I am like him in this way. I just want to be happy and smile genuinely. I don't think he felt he could acquire this want(need) with a relationship with a woman. He watched his Friends do it and saw the results. Most became miserable and that coincided with his very few relationships that he had in his earlier days. I feel he choose this life. Is it wrong? I don't think so. His brother just got married to a woman recently but I know that he was involved in a Gay relationship while he was in the Navy. To a straight laced hetero like me who wouldn't turn gay even if I were imprisoned for life , I feel his brother HAS to be gay. But he choose to Marry a woman maybe because he felt that it was "right". So I am on the fence as to being Gay is a choice or not.

I found something that someone wrote on the net. I have no clue if he is gay or not, but I thought this applied to the nature/nurture argument.

My own experience
Being left-handed... gives me a razor-thin view of what it's like to be a minority. As a left-hander, I'm discriminated against all the time. Not for serious things: I am not denied housing, medical care, a job, a seat on the bus. But I experience anti-lefty bias in the form of school desks that are unusable, carrot peelers that are useless, power tools (such as skill saws) that are dangerous or even life-threatening, pens that smear and make my writing illegible, computer mice that cause hand cramps. Teachers in England tried to force me to write with my right hand when I was a child; I used to stutter, and perhaps that was why.

Language certainly discriminates against the left-hander: A "left-handed compliment" is not something you want to hear; the word for "left" in French is gauche, and in Latin it's sinister; in contrast, from the French word for "right," droit, we get the English word adroit, and Latin for right is dexter (from which we get such words as dexterous). Ambidextrous means literally "both right."

Am I "in my right mind"? Current research can't prove whether or not lefties really do tend towards right-brain dominance. Would right-sphere specialization explain why I think of myself as creative? I would swear being left-handed helps my Tetris scores (thanks to all that visualization of abstract geometric shapes, which we lefties are famous for).

Who would I be if I was right-handed? Not the same person. Left-handedness is part of my identity, my self. I would sooner cut off my right arm than be converted to right-handedness; as strong a statement as that is, left-handedness is so integral a part of me that I could not imagine living otherwise.

You guys/gals are pretty much right on target. I DO think it is possible that Alan was Gay all along, BUT I assure you that one would've had to have training to detect it. Of coarse looking back is 20/20. He did only have 1 maybe 2 girlfriends as a youth but the perpetual quest for "it" was deceiving to say the least. Also, when we did go out, he was extremly bold in his tactics. Almost like " Hey my names' alan wanna @#%$#? (slap) moves on,Hey my names' Alan wanna....(slap) He didn't want to waste time with small talk. He thought playing the odds so to speak would be better. Makes more sense to me now,but then I just thought he was nuts. It did make for an entertaining evening.
He loathes the fakeness involved with what we hetero's go through. Try to impress, throw out your best lines, wine & dine, whatsyournamewhereyoufromwheredidyougotoschooll, etc.
Then spend a large portion of your time appeasing your partner and doing things you really don't want to do. He sees me going to the musuems as he sits to watch the Football Game that I would love to see. Men don't want to go to the Park. Good Lord! But I've been to every one in this county(must be 20) I see the men there and I know they hate it. But we do it. Right? Well he says Bunk that. I am doing what make me happy. And lets face it, men get along with men. The company is better for us. More enjoyable on average. When I visit him I must say it is my ONLY release. The only time I NEVER think of my problems. The mind is free, if you know what I mean. Sorry woman but it is true. So I guess I admire his lifestyle really. Moreover, I would like to be gay...until it was my turn

That was an excellent post devildog. I have to commend you on your utter honesty.

There are a lot of straight men who understand what it is like to be gay, and they are envious of the way it is for us. We don't have the constant male/female misunderstandings in our day to day relationships. Unfortunately, these men choose to treat us bad. All because of some lame jealousy. I'm not implying that you are jealous by the way.

"Moreover I would like to be gay..." THAT was hysterical!

Thanks outsider. And I must say that after writing some of this and thinking about our life together growing up I have come to a conclusion. If Alan was gay all along...The battle he fought on a daily basis within himself during his fundamental years is unimaginable.

Devil....I think it's possible that because of that post I see you less as an advisary over this issue. Well written, incredibly honest and enlightening.

Respects.

You are so right mystic.

Here is some interesting information on Nature vs. Nurture

"For example, many twin studies have made use of identical twins (who have the same genetic makeup) who were raised in differing environments in order to control for genetic effects: that is, any variation between twins is clearly attributable to the environment, allowing the researcher to quantify the effects of the environment by measuring variance of a trait between twins. Identical twins raised separately may have experienced quite different environments; yet many studies have often been found that they live similar lives, have similar personalities and similar levels of intelligence. On the other hand, even identical twins who are raised together often differ in significant ways. "

More often than not, if one twin is gay, so is the other. Identical or paternal twins, it makes no difference. I know the University of Minnesota has always had twin studies. They are one of the worlds authority on twins. Very interesting.

Thank you Luke... I agree with you, whole heartedly. *Round of applause for Luke* Hip, Hip, Horray!

Well put Luke90.