immunizations controversy

Medicine & Biotech Forum

Quick note from the moderator. This discussion was moved from New Father Thread. I feel it should be discussed in a thread all of its own.

Patience and sacrifice would be my first advice. You MUST acquire these skills if you don't currently possess them. Most of your parenting should come to you naturally about 3 seconds after you see the most wonderful thing in your life arrive.I won't try to explain it to you in writing because it is virtually impossible. Just wait. Damn is it awesome. I was 30 when I had my one and only girl. You will then ,and only then, realize what love is. At least that's how it was for me.
My next piece of advice may be controversial but you need to hear it. Here I go again, I'm always the feces stirrer.
I am NOT telling you what to do but I feel it is every parents responsibility and duty to do proper research on immunizations. I can suggest some if you want. Most parents assume(with the disinformation campaigns of health depts. nationwide) that kids can't go to school without shots. Wrong! Every state in the union has waivers. Can you imagine if they were mandated? Anyway shots are, in a nut shell, very dangerous and proven ineffective. They contain Formaldehyde, Aluminum, mercury, and many other KNOWN poisons. They will want to inject your infant within minutes of their arrival with Hepatitis, even when there is NO chance of them getting it(unless the mother has it while delivering). Millions are injured children are awaiting compensation from the Gov. (child act passed by Reagan) ,and a portion of your shots are paying for it. You will need to initial paperwork before your pediatrician injects them. Ever hear of SIDS? Sudden infant death syndrome. Up wards of 10,000 babies a year die from it. Or do they? Japan stopped the "p" part of the DPT shot and miraculously the cases of sids went to zero. I'm just telling you that you owe your child at least a couple hours of reading. That is all that it will take. It was some of te scariest reading I have ever done. You wanted it , so I gave it.

I'm responding to devildog's comments regarding immunization.
Although I fundamentally disagree with his comments, I respect his opinions and I think discussions are a healthy way of weighing the pros and cons of an issue as important as immunization.

The way I look at it, there will always be exceptions to the rule, and no single medical treatment will ever be perfect nor problem-free. Immunization strategies are no exception. As a medical practitioner, I will say that since its introduction by Edward Jenner in 1796, immunization has saved billions of lives worldwide, against a host of diseases, many of which have been eradicated. Smallpox is but the most striking example of the success story of vaccination. Many people have taken for granted the diseases which we seldom see these days in young children in the developed world, such as measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, whooping cough, polio, heamophilus influenza, meningococcal meningitis, and so on, that if these diseases were to resurface to epidemic proportions, then infant and childhood mortality figures will certainly quadruple within a few years, not to mention the significant morbidity caused by those diseases to survivors (such as brain damage, physical disability, etc.).

However, as devildog correctly pointed out, there are some controversies surrounding certain immunization regimes. Some of them relate to the contents of the vaccines and others relate to controversies surrounding the possibility of developing serious side effects. In the UK, there is still an ongoing controversy regarding the MMR vaccine, after a physician published a weak association between the MMR vaccination and the development of childhood autism. Such controversies (albeit unproven in controlled scientific experiments) will always be around. Even if such concerns were real, the risks of developing them are infinitely lower than the risks of actual harm to children if they contracted the diseases they ought to have been vaccinated against.

Ultimately, as a parent, one has to weigh the risks and benefits of the decision to accept or decline vaccination for his or her child. If asked, I would tell all my patients the same thing I've written here. As a parent, I would insist on vaccination for all my children.

The_Rebel

I was merely stating that a parent should Do the research. It speaks for itself. I could list stat after stat but this isn't the proper forum ,I guess. In short,herd immunity is responsible for many diseases to become"under control". Scarlett fever,for example, never had a vaccine. And one might wonder why if something has been eradicated then why do they continue to immunize? Money ,maybe? For example, EVERY single case of polio since 1978 has been CAUSED by the vaccine. And what's wrong with getting chicken pocks, measles, etc? They are benign. Most viruses are ,that they are shooting you up for. Back in the day,parents wouldn't mind their kids to be exposed to these harmless viruses. Get it over with ,they thought. Plus you are almost certain to acquire lifelong immunity from it unlike getting a vaccine. Like I said,I could go on for hours. Don't get me wrong. Medicine is a wonderful thing...when you need it!!!! Just saying that every parent should be informed, not indoctrinated. And I don't want to hear about the chances are low etc. When it happens to you...the chances are 100%. How many people ARE affected by shots and don't even know it? Autism,dyslexia,add,adht, and many cancers showing up today have a direct link to the mass inoculation programs of the 50"s. Spinal Menengitus?? AIDS even has questionable roots. Very shady stuff is happening in the medical profession. Give your child his or her first gift. Knowledge! Read Neil Miller's books. Then go to a pediatrician or health Dept and ask for refuting evidence. They asked me to leave. Speaks volumes.

There are a number of children who develop serious complications from measles and chickenpox. I believe if there was a direct correlation between vaccines and autism, ADD and other disorders, there would be a much larger number of children who have said diseases. You have to weight the risk vs. the benefit.

That being said, I think that this will be a very interesting thread.
Rebel, what do you do in Health Care?

Fuscia, I'm a surgeon at a teaching hospital, and I also have an academic background (ie. in surgical oncological research). I do know a little bit about the controversies surrounding immunization, and my advice would be to do exactly as you've said - to weigh the pros and cons of one's decision.
Measles are not a benign disease, especially in young children. Complications like febrile convulsions, meningitis, diarrhoea, vomitting, conjunctivitis, immunosuppression, pneumonitis, encephalitis, spread to a pregnant woman causing congenital malformations, and so on. Chicken pox is not benign as well - the most serious complication being pneumonitis which can be fatal in a young child.
Not everything is a government conspiracy, in spite of popular belief.
Will write later. Gotta run.

The_Rebel

Wonderful to have a surgeon here! Thank you for sharing. Now we have a real doctor in the parenting forum. Thanks for poping in Rebel. I hope to see more of you in here.

The average American child is injected with hepatitis B vaccine at 12 hours of age and 1 month; with DPT or DTaP, Hib, OPV or IPV at two and four months; with DPT/DTaP, Hib, OPV/IPV and hepatitis B at six months; with live varicella zoster at 12 to 18 months; with MMR and Hib at 12 to 15 months; with DPT/DTaP, OPV/IPV at 18 months; and with DPT/DTaP, MMR, OPV/IPV between four and six years for a total of 33 doses of 10 different viral and bacterial vaccines by the age of five. They give the Hep. even when they know it is unnecessary.Same reason they continued to give smallpox for years after it was eradicated from the earth. And we know that the Polio vaccine CAUSED every single case since 1978. In the past three decades, the numbers of children and young adults with asthma, learning disabilities and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) have doubled; diabetes has tripled; and autism has increased 200 to 600 percent in nearly every state. A University of California study published by the U.S. Department of Education in 1996 found that "The proportion of the US population with disabilities has risen markedly during the past quarter-century . . . this recent change seems to be due not to demographics, but to greater numbers of children and young adults reported as having disabilities." The study concluded that "these changes may be partly accounted for by the increases in the prevalence of asthma, mental disorders (including attention deficit disorder), mental retardation, and learning disabilities that have been noted among children in recent years." A 1997 study published in Science found that asthma has doubled in prevalence in Western societies during the past 20 years and in the United States causes one-third of pediatric emergency room visits. A 1995 report by the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) stated that between 1982 and 1992, asthma increased 52 percent for persons between 5 and 34 years old and asthma deaths increased 42 percent. According to the annual NIH Jordan Report, there are more than 200 vaccines in various research stages.

Something that scientists have known about for a while, but is just now coming to public attention, is the contamination of early polio vaccines with monkey viruses. One in particular, simian virus 40 or SV40, has been shown to cause cancer in humans. It has also been suggested that the monkey kidney cells in which polio virus was grown for the early polio vaccines were infected with simian immunodeficiency virus (SIV) and that, when the monkey virus was introduced into the human population, it recombined with human genetic material to create the human immunodeficiency virus, HIV.Of course, over the last few years, there have been several scientists who have come forward with evidence that the early polio vaccines were contaminated with monkey viruses, both SIV and SV40, and that chronic illness has resulted from that contamination. There was a National Institutes of Health conference held in the Washington, D.C., area that brought together a number of researchers who are culturing SV40 from tumors of adults and children who are suffering from rare forms of bone, brain, and lung cancer. Ever read the congressional records from 1969 in which the Government sought funds for mixing viruses to create a germ that would affect the immune system? The project is code-named N.K. Naomi.They developed the virus at Ft. Detrick Maryland.Later, in San Fran.and New York, it was introduced in the hepititus B vaccine (thanks). It was also used in Africa.Yes I am talking about aids. Check out the Strecker Memorandum.
In 1987 the London times published a story uncovering the correlations between vaccines and man made aids virus said to have been created by U.S. scientists and tested on Central Africans.These are FACTS.You cannot spin them in any way.

Did you know that a study concluded in 1995 found that people who receive the measles vaccine were three times more likely to develop crohn's desease and twice as likly to develop ulcerative colitus than people who did not receive the shot? In fact it is well known that the centers for disease control confessed long ago that vaccinated people are 14 times more likely to contract measles than people who are not vaccinated.

About 50% of people who contract Diphtheria have been fully vaccinated. FACT! In an official report the FDA concluded that Diptheria toxoid is not as effective immunizing agent as might be anticipated. They admitted that a vaccinated person could contract the disease just as easily!

Rubella is not even necessary to try to immunize against. But it does make money. It is harmless! But just to prove my point there was an epidemic in Wyoming where 91 of the 125 infected kids were fully vaccinated. That’s about 75% that were so called "protected" by the shot. And Befoe the shot was introduced nearly 85% of the population was naturaly immune to the disease. Also in 2 seperate scientific studies found that the new rubella vaccine introduced in 1979 was the cause of Chronic FatigueSyndrome (Epstein-Barr Virus). And one of my favorite stats about the rubella vaccine is the one published in the Journal of the American Medical Association.It reads that 90% of the obstetricians and more than two-thirds of the pediatricians refuse to take the rubella vaccine, and concluded that they were "afraid of the unforeseen Vaccine reactions"

Mumps is another joke. It is harmless in childhood, and almost always conforms lifelong immunity. Shots do NOT.

Tetinus is something we worried about 50 plus years ago. Does anyone get it?? And did they have indoor plumbing? I think wound hygiene has come along way since WWII.The tetanus bacillus produces one of the most potent toxins in nature which can severely damage the brain. In 1991, the Institute of Medicine concluded that tetanus vaccine can cause Guillain-Barre syndrome (GBS), which begins one to four weeks after vaccination and takes up to four weeks to progress. The tetanus vaccine was also found to cause brachial neuritis, a neuropathy that usually appears within three weeks of vaccination involving painful nerve inflammation in the arm and shoulder which can progress over a period of many months. Now the vaccine is diluted so much it is ineffective.

A child, who had been healthy and bright before he reacted within four hours of his DPT shot at 19 months of age with a convulsion followed by days of fever and screaming and was left mentally retarded with autistic behaviors, was awarded compensation in 1996 under the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act despite protests by federal health officials that he was autistic and there is no proof that DPT vaccine causes autism. REAL NICE. Not only is it deadly, pertusis may be only 40% effective. Further evidence suggests that immunity is not sustained. Susceptibility to pertusis 12 yrs after full vaccination may be as high as 95 percent!! I have TONS of figures, stats, and reports on this subject. For example: In Kansas 1300 cases of pertusis were reported. Of the patients whose vaccination status was known , 90 percent were "adequately" vaccinated. NICE !! From the earliest days of pertussis vaccine use, it has been associated with development of asthma in previously healthy children. The pertussis toxin, sometimes referred to as islet-activating protein, has been shown in laboratory animals to provoke excess production of insulin by the pancreas and diabetes in mice. In a recent study (Hurwitz & Morgenstern, 2000) reviewing data from the National Center for Health Statistics from 1988 to 1994 and, comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated children, it was found that a child who received DPT or tetanus vaccination was 50 percent more likely to experience severe allergic reactions, more than 80 percent more likely to experience sinusitis and twice as likely to experience asthma as those children who were not vaccinated. The authors concluded that "asthma and other allergic hypersensitivity reactions and related symptoms may be caused, in part, by the delayed effects of DTP or tetanus vaccination."

It is not known how many pertussis vaccine deaths occur in the U.S. each year because often the deaths of babies, who receive DPT or DTaP shots and then die shortly after exhibiting classic pertussis vaccine reactions, are misclassified as SIDS. The incidence of SIDS increases after the first month of life, rises to a peak at two and three months, and declines after the age of four months. One SIDS study concluded that 17 of 23 vaccinated SIDS infants (or about 52%) died within one week of a DPT shot after 6 (or about 11%) died within 24 hours of the shot. Finally, after more than 40 years of evidence in the medical literature that the DPT vaccine was causing brain inflammation and CNS damage in previously healthy children, this fact was confirmed by medical science in the 1981 National Childhood Encephalopathy Study (NCES) and in 1991 and 1994 by the Institute of Medicine, National Academy of Sciences (IOM).

Cases of diabetes, yet another chronic autoimmune disorder, have tripled in the U.S. since 1958, now affecting nearly 16 million Americans and ranking fourth in the leading causes of death in America. The CDC concluded in 1997 that "the number of newly diagnosed cases of diabetes was almost 50 percent higher in 1994 than in 1980" and did not appear to be a result of the aging of the population. In Europe, a new report issued by the EURODIAB study group (Lancet-2000), evaluated the incidence rate of diabetes from 1989 to 1994 in Europe and Israel and found a 63 percent increase in children under 5 years old; a 31 percent increase in children five to nine years old; and a 24 percent increase in children 10 to 14 years old. They said, "The rapid rate of increase in children under 5 years old is of particular concern." There is no explanation for why adult-onset diabetes, once extremely rare in children, has become more prevalent in American children in the past ten years.

In addition to an unexplained increase in autoimmune disorders during the past three decades, there also has been an unexplained dramatic increase in the numbers of minimally brain damaged children who are filling special education classrooms in schools across America.A disability survey of U.S. children under 17 years old in 1991–1992 published in the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (August 25, 1995) stated that the "6 to 14 year old age group had the greatest number of disabled people." Learning disability led the way, occurring in nearly 30 percent of all disabled children. A total of 1,435,000 children were listed as learning disabled with another 1,446,000 children reported as suffering from speech disorders, mental retardation, mental or emotional disorders, epilepsy and autism. The 1997 Digest of Education Statistics looked at children 0 to 21 years old served in federally supported programs for the disabled between 1976 and 1996 and found that the numbers of children with specific learning disabilities more than tripled in those years; those with serious emotional disturbances nearly doubled; and the numbers of autistic children served rose from 5,000 in 1991–92 to 39,000 in 1995–1996 to produce a staggering 680 percent increase

About five percent of U.S. school children (at least two million children) are now estimated to have attention deficit disorder (ADD) or attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). According to Sears and Thompson (1998), a 1990 survey of 2,400 practicing physicians showed there were about two million patient visits associated with the diagnoses of ADD and by 1994, it had increased to 4.7 million, with 90 percent of the visits resulting in drug therapy. By 1995, there were 1.5 million children taking Ritalin and in a recent study (Zito, JAMA) it was reported that the number of two to four year olds taking prescription drugs like Ritalin and Prozac rose 50 percent between 1991 and 1995.

In 1994, the Institute of Medicine concluded that the live measles virus vaccine can cause death from measles vaccine strain viral infection.

In 1998, officials of the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, Public Health Service (Pediatrics; March 1998) found that a causal relationship exists between live measles vaccine and encephalopathy after analyzing cases of children who received measles vaccine alone or in the combination MMR shot and, within 15 days of vaccination, suffered neurologic signs that progressed to death or mental regression, retardation, chronic seizures, motor and sensory deficits and movement disorders.

An outbreak of aseptic meningitis in Brazil has been linked to the MMR vaccine (Am J Epidmiol, 2000). A research team found there was a sharp increase in the number of cases of aseptic meningitis three weeks after a 1997 mass MMR vaccination campaign in northeastern Brazil. The researchers "conservatively estimated" that the risk of aseptic meningitis is 1 in about 14,000 MMR vaccine doses. (A type of brain inflammation involving the meninges, aseptic meningitis can be caused by viruses and bacteria as well as stroke, lead poisoning, and vaccine reactions (Berkow, 1987).

In 1995, THE VACCINE REACTION reported that California microbiologist Howard Urnovitz, Ph.D., criticized the Defense Department for administering multiple vaccinations to soldiers heading for the Gulf War, including cholera, live oral polio, typhoid fever, meningitis, pertussis, tetanus, diphtheria, yellow fever, recombinant hepatitis B, influenza and two experimental vaccines, anthrax and botulinium, as well as an experimental drug, pryridostigmine bromide. Urnovitz maintained that the multiple vaccinations weakened the soldiers’ immune systems, making them more vulnerable to environmental toxins and opportunistic infections encountered in the Gulf War, causing tens of thousands to become chronically ill with "Gulf War Syndrome" which includes symptoms such as chronic muscle and joint pain, rashes, headache, disabling fatigue, memory loss, inability to concentrate, personality changes, diarrhea, hair loss, and sleep disturbances

DPT, DPTH, tetanus, DT, Td, influenza, meningococcal, and most DTaP, Hib and hepatitis B vaccines contain Thimerosal (live virus vaccines do not). The total amount of mercury that babies under six months old have been exposed to in childhood vaccines has exceeded the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) limit. Both the AAP and CDC have recommended that, to limit mercury exposure, newborns born to hepatitis B-free mothers should not receive hepatitis B vaccine at birth unless it is Thimerosal-free. There are thimerosal-free vaccines available but parents must request them(I think maybe rebel can confirm).

The chicken pox vaccine, which is being manufactured by Merck & Co. and will cost about $40 per shot, has been controversial for many years because chicken pox is a usually mild disease in childhood and even its developers admit that the vaccine only causes temporary immunity.

Doctors should be required to adhere to the law requiring the reporting of serious health problems such as developmental regression following vaccination to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), as it is estimated that only between one and 10 percent of all doctors do report (And STILL, between 12,000 and 14,000 reports of adverse events, including hospitalizations, injuries and deaths following vaccination are made annually). Parents, whose children suffer injury or death following vaccination, should be fully informed by their pediatricians about the existence of the federal vaccine injury compensation program, which has awarded more than one billion dollars to families whose children have died or been injured after vaccine reactions.

I mean, IF they worked than MAYBE I would concider injecting my child. But they don't. And quickly I will tell you how they are made.. Lets see. It is they same virus being injected that you are trying to avoid. But we first incubate it in embryos, monkey kidneys or monkey livers, or maybe even a human fetus! Then lets stabilize it with Mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde etc.

Knowledge is a factor with many blind sides. Somewhere in the course of some Doctors studies , they missed an important lesson-that the body is a beautiful instrument of creation. The most magnificient of machines. It has a supreme intelligence of its own. Nature plays an important role as well. And don't underestimate the power of the mind. The placebos can attest to this phenomenon.

I find it morally repugnant that individuals within the organized medical profession-The Medical-Industrial Complex-including influential members of the World Health Organization, A.M.A., American Academy of Pediatrics, The C.D.C, F.D.A, major medical journals, Hospitals, Health Professors, Scientists, Coroners, and the manufacturers have an implicit agreement to obscure facts, minimize the truths, and deceive the public. No offense Rebel. (if the shoe fits kinda thing) There are some great Doctors out there and I must say that surgeons are among the finest. You don't dabble in preventative maintenance too much I'm guessing .

Thanks once again fuscia for your warm welcome. Allow me to say that you're a great and wonderful moderator who always makes everyone feel welcome. It's great to be part of a forum where issues can be discussed rationally, sensibly and without any acrimony.

Thanks also to devildog for continuing to participate in this discussion. In answer to comments in his most recent post :

1) Scarlet fever : This is a relatively mild disease in young children when compared with other infections (such as measles, polio, mumps, etc.). The only serious complications are peritonsillar abscesses and middle ear infections, both of which can be prevented by the administration of antibiotics. The condition itself is treatable with penicillin, which prevents the complications from developing. In the olden days, rheumatic fever was a potentially serious complication, which resulted from the formation of auto-antibodies towards heart valves by the body in response to the offending bacteria (Group A Streptococcus). However, in developed countries, rheumatic fever is relatively rare, due to improved sanitation and widespread use of antibiotics.
In developing an immunization program for the community, there are several criteria which have to be satisfied before justifying such a program. The foremost issues are : Is the infection serious enough to justify immunization (in terms of morbidity and mortality)? Are there effective ways of treating the condition should it develop (therefore precluding the need for immunization if the answer is yes)? Does a vaccine exist for the bacteria/virus? If it does, is it safe (in terms of serious side-effects or complications)? Who will benefit from immunization (ie. the people at risk of such an infection)? If you consider scarlet fever, it's quite clear that it does not justify immunization. Infections such as Hepatitis B, which is potentially fatal, clearly justifies immunization for those at risk (eg. health care workers). If you look at all the immunization programs in developed countries, all of them satisfy the above criteria to a large extent.

2) Eradication is not an all-encompassing term. A particular infection may have been eradicated from humans but the reservoir for the virus or bacteria can still exist in either animals or in humans who are carriers but who do not otherwise show the disease (called chronic carrier states). Hence if immunization programs are suddenly stopped, such infections may resurface in susceptible individuals.

3) In the case of polio, if the active virus is used as a vaccine, there is a chance that susceptible children can develop a mild form of the disease. Conditions which make children susceptible include all forms of immunosuppression (such as diabetes, those on steroids, malnutrition, immunodeficiency states, etc.). That's why there are contra-indications to immunization (ie. situations when the vaccines shouldn't be used). However, I would seriously question your statistic in regard to your claim that all cases of polio were the result of the vaccine.

4) "When it happens to you the chances are 100%" : Risks and benefits are all about finding a realistic balance. What you want to know is what the chances of developing problems from the jabs are, and balance that with the potential benefits (ie. what are the chances of developing the infection and the chances of developing problems if the child does get infected, assuming vaccination is declined). As an analogy, if the chance of developing a problem from the shot is 0.0001% (ie. 1 in a million); and without vaccination, the chance of contracting the disease is 10% and the chance of developing serious problems from it is 25% (hence overall risk of serious problems of 2.5%), then any sensible parent would opt for vaccination. Obviously definitive figures of risks are sometimes difficult to compute, but when you take into account the number of infections which might afflict your child if you decline vaccination, the risks of developing problems are very real indeed.

Your last few sentences hinted at mass conspiracies conjured up by the powers that be, and that's an area I wouldn't like to comment on since I do not accept the notion. To me, a real conspiracy would have been perpetrated if for some reason, whether with noble motives or otherwise, someone commenced on a campaign of scaremongering which resulted in a dramatic decrease in the uptake of vaccination by the public, and this ultimately led to the increase in childhood morbidity and mortality from diseases which would otherwise have been preventable.

In regard to "Knowledge" : Sometimes, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. I would be careful not to take the words of a single person as gospel, no matter what qualifications or experience the person claims he possesses. I think everyone is better off taking a balanced view - by reading from various sources, talking to doctors and other health care personnel, relatives, friends, and so on. I've always found it reliable to ask what doctors and health care personnel would do for their own children, for this often speaks volumes in itself.

The_Rebel

Oops, it seems that I posted my last post just after devildog posted his. Thanks devildog for providing some statistics and studies which seem to discredit immunization.

I think one has to be cautious when considering the results of such studies. Issues to consider include : study design (eg. observational vs. interventional - the latter has more power; retrospective vs. prospective), number of subjects, randomization, controls, and presence of confounding variables. Note that studies which show an association between two factors do not prove a causal link. For example, if a large observational study found a direct link between hypertension (ie. high blood pressure) and lung cancer, in that more people with high blood pressure get lung cancer than controls, it doesn't mean that high blood pressure causes lung cancer. Other confounding variables, in this case smoking, may actually be the causative factor (since smoking causes hypertension and lung cancer). This can easily be determined in randomized case controlled studies, and the results analysed in a multivariate fashion. Hence, often the results of scientific studies are not in question, but their interpretation (or misinterpretation) are. In the case of apparent problems with vaccinations, most studies are largely observational, they are not randomized nor properly controlled and the analysis do not take into account the presence of confounding variables.

At the same time, I do not dispute the fact that vaccination does have some side effects and complications, and when you consider that millions of children are involved in vaccination, you're bound to get a percentage with serious problems as a result of it. Even crossing the road with your child carries a certain risk, and hundreds die each year from doing so from accidents. But that doesn't stop parents from taking their children across the road. Hence to put things into proper perspective, the risks are there, but they're certainly lower than the risks of contracting serious infections and the risks of developing potentially fatal or disabling complications from such infections.

The_Rebel

Just a quick note. In the United States, live polio virus vaccines are no longer used.

Just a quick note about rubella and mumps. Rubella does have some serious complications, such as encephalitis, otitis media and childhood arthritis. But the most important and serious complication is the real risk of causing congenital malformations. Pregnant women risk exposure to children's diseases all the time (from their own children, or from other kids) and hence the risk is very real indeed. Since the introduction of rubella vaccination, the incidence of rubella congenital syndrome has fallen dramatically.
As for mumps, the complications include encephalitis, meningitis, orchitis/oophoritis, nerve damage and pancreatitis. However, there is a real risk of spontaneous abortion in pregnant women if they get infected.

The_Rebel

Just a quick note to thank Rebel for his Honesty and openness on a subject that is obviously very close. Perhaps if more in the field were this way than we could make progress. You must agree that there is a suppression of evidence or a dis-information ,if you will,going on,and has been for years. Just as an observer of life,one can see it. When told that I do not
choose to immunize my child, almost every single person says "than you can't get her into school". Every one!! That is right after the look they give me suggesting that I am a candidate for the worst father of the year . This no longer amazes me after the experience I had at the Health Dept. I went there asking about shots. I pretended to be ignorant on the subject and asked if they had literature on the safety of the vaccines. The answer was no. I then asked if I had to subject my child to them in order to get her into school. She is almost 6 by the way. Absolutely ,I was told. I played dumb for several minutes asking all kinds of variables to make sure she indeed was lying right through her teeth. Finally I admitted that I knew of the 3 different types of waivers offered in every state in the country and asked for one. Oh the indignity of it all . I was asked to leave.

Hmm, to exclude a child from school on the basis of not being immunized sounds rather draconian and odd, in my opinion. After all, such a decision lies entirely on the parent or guardian, and in most cases it is generally assumed that parents/guardians are acting in the best interests of the child (for example, declining vaccination due to over-riding concerns regarding its safety). But if their actions are due to neglect or ignorance, then such decisions can be challenged in court. Recently, in the UK, a divorced couple was divided on the issue of vaccinating their child with the MMR vaccine. The case went to court which eventually ruled in favour of vaccination.

As for suppression of evidence and disinformation, that's quite a strong allegation to make. The law is quite clear on that - it is a serious offence punishable by law. Personally, in all my professional experience, I've not come across any evidence which would lend credibility to such an allegation. I think parents and guardians ought to be given all the information that they need, for and against immunization, but in the appropriate context so that an informed choice can be made. This is the basis of informed consent for any medical procedure, of which vaccination should be regarded. The appropriate context means to put things into perspective ie. risk vs. benefit ratio. Generally speaking, any mild to moderate complication which has a less than 1% chance of occurring can be omitted. However, serious complications such as permanent disability or death should be mentioned even if the risks are miniscule.

I would think that if given proper informed consent, most parents would still choose to immunize their children. I can't stress enough the importance of taking into account the risk-benefit ratio (ie. comparing risks relative to one another). At present, I sincerely believe that the risk of problems resulting from vaccination is far outweighed by its benefits, probably by a factor of hundreds of thousands, if not millions. A crude but valid comparison is infant mortality rates from preventable infectious diseases between developed countries with established immunization programmes and third world countries without such programmes. The ratio of infants dying from such diseases run in the hundreds of thousands (ie. factor of 10-100 per patient/year), whereas in contrast, in developed countries, the ratio of serious problems from vaccination is in the order of 0.000001-0.0001 per patient/year.

The_Rebel

Just a quick update on the controversy surrounding the MMR vaccine and childhood autism. The Lancet, which originally published the article written by Dr. Andrew Wakefield which apparently linked MMR with autism in 1999, has stated that it regrets publishing the article and that with hindsight it should never have been published. This is because it felt that Dr. Wakefield had a fatal conflict of interests, as he was 'simultaneopusly carrying out a study into whether there were grounds for legal action on behalf of parents of allegedly vaccine-damaged children, in addition to the study published by the Lancet'. This seriously raises questions regarding the credibility of his work, and had the Lancet known about this, his research paper would have been rejected.

The editor of the journal was quoted as saying : "As the father of a three-year-old who has had MMR, I regret hugely the adverse impact this paper has had".

As a matter of interest, the Lancet article sparked the controversy which is still ongoing.

The_Rebel

(the above post contains excerpts taken from a BBC News report dated 20th February 2004)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- There is no evidence that a controversial mercury-based vaccine preservative causes autism, concludes an eagerly anticipated scientific review that says it's time to lay vaccine suspicions to rest and find the real culprit.

Tuesday's conclusion by the prestigious Institute of Medicine pointed to five large studies, here and abroad, that tracked thousands of children since 2001 and found no association between autism and vaccines containing the preservative thimerosal.

Many parents of autistic children blame vaccination for the brain disorder.

But the panel of prominent scientists said that while high doses of mercury can cause neurological damage, there's no evidence that this type of damage causes the symptoms specific to autism -- and no laboratory or animal research that proves how the much smaller amounts of mercury in thimerosal could do so either, the IOM concluded.

On the other hand, genetics plays a role in autism, and several studies show clear signs of prenatal onset of the disorder, including brain differences at birth, the report notes.

"Don't misunderstand: The committee members are fully aware that this is a very horrible and devastating condition," said Dr. Marie McCormick, a Harvard professor of maternal and child health who led the IOM probe. "It's important to get to the root of what's happening."

But, "there seem to be lots of opportunities for research that would be more productive" than continuing the vaccine hunt.

Autism is a complex developmental disorder best known for impairing a child's ability to communicate and interact with others. Recent data suggest a tenfold increase in autism rates over the last decade, although it's not clear how much of the apparent surge reflects better diagnosis and how much is a true rise.

Thimerosal has been used as a preservative in some vaccines and other medicines since the 1930s. Although the amount of mercury it contains is very small, vaccine makers began phasing out thimerosal in 1999 as a precaution urged by public health officials. It now has been virtually eliminated in routine childhood vaccines.

Vaccine critics didn't immediately comment on the report.

Perhaps I should wonder to a point about the validity of having shots, since I have three daughters, the eldest is five. However, they have not been "really" sick nor have they been exposed to many of the possible "out break" diseases. And I did have them in for the first two sets of shots, as the first set is given at the hospital and the second because I at least wanted a little protection. And as they got older, because I chose to ask them how they are doing and if they are doing alright, (and not in the "are you sick" way of asking) they tell me if their tummy hurts of if they have a headache or if they are doing just fine. I don't always give medicine, because I believe resistance to medication is not a good thing. But we find other ways to detract from a headache, or eat a few saltine crackers for an upset stomach. If the problem persists longer than a day, it is an immediate appointment schedule.

I believe since most children are not able to clearly define when they do not feel well, it is often hard to find the problem if there is one after shots or at any other time. Very young babies are often labled as colic babies or any of the other "lung excercising" terms for babies. And it is not until the parent demands for additional testing or review the problems are discovered.

Even if you are against shots, having them at an age or at least an understanding of how they act when they feel a certain way can often remedy concern for shots and their effects. Limiting exposure to possible hazards (if possible keeping them out of daycare until about 3, or limiting the "environment" they may come in contact with) at least until they can communicate. Then get the shots for them.

Granted this is my opinion, and I have read over what was written which was very informative. Please give feed back. I like to hear or read what others think, and perhaps even discuss our differences and similarities. And for Rebel, in Virginia, if you do not sign a waiver stating you will bring your child up to date with their shots by the end of the school year your child will not be able to attend (at least until the shots are up to date).

No state in the union mandates shots. Rebel does not have to inject their child(ren) with poisons. There are 3 different types of waivers. Virginia is no different. You bring up a good point about colic. Even after additional testing, the doctors will NEVER admitt fault. That's why we have SIDS, IMO. My 6 yr old is healthy as a horse. Never had colic, never even used a passifier. And she is more advanced than her classmates. That's not just a proud parent speaking, either. She has never been sick, other than a flu which lasted 2 days. If she gets sick, THEN medicines are a wonderful thing.

Thank you fuscia for the AP news report. I had wanted to post it but you beat me to it!

Very interesting comments, KimDen. I think different parents have different strategies to manage important issues such as the health of their children, and as long as they are reasonable and sensible, that should be commended.

However, I think if there were serious problems which developed straight after immunization, such problems would come to the attention of most observant parents. Problems such as physical or mental disability, dramatic changes in behaviour, development of serious infections and so on will become evident such that even if parents do not notice them, relatives, friends, carers, nannies or teachers certainly will and draw attention to them. That the far majority of children either do not develop serious and long-lasting adverse reactions would strongly lend support to the notion that by and large immunization strategies are safe and essential for the health and well-being of children.

It seems to me from Devildog's and KimDen's comments that in some states in the US vaccination is mandatory. Whilst I am a firm advocate of immunization in children, I do not think that making immunization compulsory is the right way forward. This is a rather puzzling requirement, since even if children who were not vaccinated did develop infections, the population of children at large would be protected against such infections in any case if the uptake of immunization is acceptable as it is in most civilised societies. Perhaps such mandatory measures are intended to prevent a drop in the uptake of vaccination, in which case a better and rather less totalitarian alternative is to embark on a campaign which extols the benefits of immunization through data backed by scientific research and facts. Just like screening programs for various disease conditions, personal choice should always be made available, as long as the individual understands the risks and benefits of such a choice.

The_Rebel

Parents have the option of signing a waiver for immunizations, an objection on religious grounds. Most parents immunize their kids.

I believe that the benefits far outweigh the risk.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Struggling, inner-city parents are more likely to neglect to completely vaccinate their children, while parents who refuse to vaccinate at all tend to be white and well-off, U.S. researchers reported Tuesday.

The study is the first extensive national survey to look at why some children are not vaccinated, and it shows a big difference between parents who are unable to get their children vaccinated, and those who are unwilling to do so.

By the time they are 3 years old, U.S. children are supposed to get at least 15 different shots. These include combined vaccinations for diphtheria, tetanus, and whooping cough, three doses of polio vaccine, one dose of combined measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine, three doses of Haemophilus influenzae type B vaccine and others for hepatitis B and chickenpox.

In 2001, only an estimated 62.8 percent of all children aged 19 to 35 months were fully vaccinated, Philip Smith and colleagues at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's National Immunization Program found.

More than 2 million children or 36.9 percent of toddlers were not fully vaccinated in 2001, and 17,000 children or 0.3 percent were not vaccinated at all, Smith's team wrote in Tuesday's issue of the journal Pediatrics.

The CDC stressed that vaccines save lives. "Unvaccinated children are at increased risk of acquiring and transmitting vaccine-preventable diseases," the team added.

Influence of affluence
They studied a sample of 150,000 children.

"Undervaccinated children tended to be black, to have a younger mother who was not married and did not have a college degree, to live in a household near the poverty level, and to live in a central city," the researchers said.

"Unvaccinated children tended to be white, to have a mother who was married and had a college degree, to live in a ... city."

Several studies have shown two barriers to full vaccination -- a lack of adequate medical care and affluent, educated people who question the need to vaccinate their children.

"Among parents of unvaccinated children, 47.5 percent expressed concerns regarding safety, compared with 5.1 percent of parents with undervaccinated children," the researchers wrote.

And those who refuse vaccines often do not trust doctors.

"Among parents of unvaccinated children, 70.9 percent said that a doctor was not influential in shaping their vaccination decisions for their children, compared with 22.9 percent among undervaccinated children," the researchers said.

As a result, there have been outbreaks of measles and polio in the United States, Smith's team noted. Both viruses can be crippling and even deadly.

Of the children not vaccinated, 57 percent were boys.

"In response to concerns about the perceived risk of autism resulting from vaccinations, parents might have avoided having their sons vaccinated at a higher rate than their daughters, as a result of knowing that they have risk factors for autism and knowing that the rate of autism is 4 times greater for boys than for girls," the researchers wrote.

Last month, the Institute of Medicine reported that a panel of experts could find no evidence that vaccines cause autism, but groups that question vaccine safety vowed to continue to fight to prove a link.