Israel

Israel & Palestine Forum

hey people!
we all talk about Iraq, but did anyone ever thought about Israel?!
people are terrified over there and it seems that nobody cares!
are you with me? for the war in Iraq? they deserve it! they all deserve it!
the Arabs are killing people in Israel everyday and Iraq is surly a part of this!
im positive that there are many secret connections between the Arab contries and if no one will fight back, who knows what might happen!
I say, something must be done! Each and everyone of us has something to contribute!
What do you say?

what are you saying?

I think that some people were "literated" by CNN or Fox News...

I get the feeling that many here derive their info from Iraq's Ministry of Information... with a few gut leaking drivels from Al-Jazeera.

syndie, you may be right in some aspects. israelis are living in a very tensed conditions with the possibility of terrorist ataks every day.
But these are consequences of their racist attacs against palestinians!!!!
Israel is a terrorist state that opresses other countries and who do not accept the resolutions of the UN.
If USA is ataking irak because sadam hasnt accomplished the un resolutions, they would have to do the same with this other state.

That is one of the worst errors of the american administration, they are very moral with some countries but inmoral with the actions aof other countries.
please, little bit of coherence, less fox and cnn and more histroy!!!!

KAZAK, have you been watching too much crap on TV?! Israel never attacked those bastards before they did something to Israel first! I have many friends in Israel, Jewish and not Jewish and i've been there myself. I'm sorry, but i don't think you have the right to say a thing like tht about Israel. People are suffering. Have you ever been afraid to go on the bus, or shopping? or just take a walk outside? Well, Israelys live in that reality! What have you been watching? You saw how Israeli troops go into the Arab villages? Well, let me ask you: Did you see what happened before Israel went into those villages?! People died! That's what happened! In terrorist attackes. Long before Israel did anything.

You seem to forget something too-what about the time Israel did not belong to the "palastinians"? Israel did not belong to the Arabs. It belonged to the anciant Jews so they have the right to claim it for themselves.

sindy,

Firstly, i know very well what this fear means, i'm spaniard and here we have also a terrorist group named eta which is fighting for a free basque country. A friend from me died in a terrorist attack in a shopping center in Barcelona and thats because i understand perfectly what is happening in israel.

Israel terrorist attacks have their origin in the frustration of the palestinian people. Do you know the story of this two peoples???
ok, i will tell you, during 2000 years jewish people lived in the diaspora, they fleed from palestina during the roman empire.
During these 2000 years other peoples came to this country, these were the palestinians.
During 500 years this region was under the control of the turkish empire, that defeated after WWI, abandoned the region to the britih forces.

After WW2 and the horrors of the holocaust, the winnier forces decided to create in this region a country for the survivors. The dream of jewish people was, after thousands of years, accomplihed, they had their own state.

but there were other peoples living there. No problem, the palestinian families had to leave the country...but, surprise, they do not wanted and they begun to fight for they rights!!!!

1948, the un established the frontiers of both, the israeli and the palestinian territory (which was a small part of the original one, and with the most poor earth of the region). perfect....or not...
because israel has since then expanded his territory, occupiing palestinians villages, killing thousands of them, and provoking its diaspora (it seems that israelians have no memory, haw do lived during the diaspora, was this beautiful???, i do not think so)

step by step they have conquered the whole palestinian territory, degrading this people to third rang citizens (in the best of the cases) and reducing their standard of living and expectatives.
The USA has supportde this actions and meny others and thats because they are hated in middle east so as israel does.

it is normal, that without expectatives of a better future, seeing the homes of their grandparents occupid by israeli families coming from around the world, with a israeli gov that kills every week tenths from they camerades and a USA that blocks the sanctions from UN against their opressors many young palestinians feel that the only solution that it leaves is autinmolation, killing by selfkilling....
it is horrible, but it is the truth

waow !
Sindy
do you really think that ?

So the Italians could claim for the whole Roman empire ?
Russia could claim for the whole USSR empire ?
And what about the Native-Americans ?
What kind of international new order would this lead to ?
Are you serious ?
Are you ready for WWIII ?

The case of the palestinians is different : there is still several millions of refugees (in Jordania, etc...) who cannot return AT HOME because of Israel's army breaching international regulations and laws.

It would be ideal if the US attacked Israel after Iraq. Then two major factors to instability in the middle east would have been eliminated. Things would be much better there also if that lunatic Sharon (preferably also Arafat) was thrown out of power. To me he (and his party) seems to be the main obstacle in way to peace. This is, of course, only wishful thinking. And by the way Sindy, if land would always belong to those who owned it thousands of years ago, then all land in for example North America should belong to native americans (indians). Not very realistic, is it?

Darn right! Israel is the PROBLEM. Talk about EVIL, Israel is a racist regime, on par with Apartheid South Africa. Israel is a true threat to it's neighbors, with a track record of unprovoked aggression. Sharon is a true war criminal and more of a threat to the region and the world than Saddam ever was. And the EVIL cadre of the Neocon/Zionists has highjacked Peabrain Bush and caused America to fight unnneeded wars and spill the blood of young Americans all for the greater glory of Israel.

You're absolutely right Sindy! I'm not a Jew but I sure am a Zionist. And Iraq is directly involved in the Jews' suffering. Saddam pays the families of suicide bombers between $10000 and $15000, which is more money than your average Palestinian would make in ten lifetimes. In fact, his whole regime is based on blind hatred of Israel. Before he invaded Iran, he told his people, "Before Jerusalem, it's Tehran." And then he said the same thing (with Kuwait City instead of Tehran) before he kicked off the first Gulf War. I've sloso seen portraits of him riding a white stallion past the Dome of the Rock, with many Palestinians greeting him as a liberator.
I wouldn't put it past that SOB to send as many missles as he can carrying VX to Tel Aviv. I hope and pray that he doesn't though.
But if he does, I also pray that the Americans find out that it was Syria that gave the Iraqis the missliles so America will bring that corrupt regime to an end too.
But, what's my contribution to Israel going to be, you ask? Well, I'm joining the British Army this summer, to fight in what I'm sure will be a much longer and widespread war than most people imagined. But when its over, Israel will be much safer.

You are SICK! Zionism=RACISM. The sooner Israel get's driven into the sea, the better.

Thanks for clearing something up though, you're not Jewish, but you're a zionist. That shows that as EVIL AS IT IS, zionism is not a religion, but a political movement. So being anti-zionist is not anti-Semitic. Zionism is like Nazism with a star of David, rather than a swastika.

I'm joining the British Army this summer, to fight in what I'm sure will be a much longer and widespread war than most people imagined. But when its over, Israel will be much safer. [/B][/QUOTE]

please do not do it. I dont know where all your ideas come from, but do not go fighting against Iraq if you want a safer israel. The hate of palestinians comes from the degradation provoket by israel no from sadams money. This war increasing hate against USA, UK and Israel in the world.
Palestinians love sadam because he is the only leader who has promissed to help them, the rest of the worl has betrayed constatly del palestinian people.

Another think, Sionism is the same as racism. They believe that jews are a superior kind of persons as the rest of the humanity. This is one of the biggest contradictions of todays world, the people who suffered the holocoust have now the same ideas as hitler!!!!!

The Jews will never be driven into the sea for one reason. That is that everyone that talks about destroying Israel, JUST TALKS! You are just like all those hash smoking Arabs that sit in their coffee shops and talk about how tough they are and how they're gonna kill some Jews.
I'm gonna quote Leon Uris here, "Israel is the bridge between darkness and light." The Arabs are living in the distant past and are only going backwards. I challenge you to list 5 things (becides oil) that they have contributed to the advancement of human civilization in the past 300 years.
But its not the Arabs fault that their lives are so crappy. No, it is their religeon that makes them just sit there all lathargic like and accept their crappy lives. Islam literally means, "to submit."
Israel was founded in 1948 and had the chance to show the Arab world that they could do better. Israel was brand new and the standard of living there was/is much much much better than the rest of the Arab world.
But the corrupt Arab leaders didn't like this. It would mean that they'd be overruled. So they killed the moderate Palestinians that wanted to negotiate with Israel. They filled the radiowaves with propaganda and told their people that the Jews raped pregnant women and other such garbage.
So of course the average Arabs submit to the will of their leaders and hated the Jews. And they passed this hatred on through sucessive generations. And what good has it done them? NONE! They're lives (Palestinians in particular) are even crappier! All because they are too **** proud to accept Jewish help.
So I say to hell with them! I dont care if that's racist! I'm racist against the stupid!

After learning that people like Crusader Man exist, my hope is that Saddam has some WMDs and before this war is over, he lays them on Tel Aviv.

Sorry Rambo, all it illustrates is FREE THINKING, rather than the YES MR. BUSH MAY I HAVE ANOTHER thinking that fuels your pea-sized brain.

God Bless America... and Israel? WHO CARES? Screw 'em! Israel has NOTHING to do with America.

Isral and palestina could live in peace if people like you all could halt your oral incontinence.

all you are racists, simplistics and hipocrats in some messure.

it is not a surprise that arabs hate the west after hearing opinions like that ones, are you full or what???

israel is as terrorist as palestinians are
the world is not white and black, there are the gray!!!!!

this stupid vision of the world is what provoques war and hate, i hope that one of this "underdevelopped moslems" kicks you in the *** in iraq crusader man!!!!!

Like you, no Arab would ever kick me in the ***. He'd talk about it with his friends, but that's it.

I don't know Crusader man? Plenty of deaths can be attributed to Arab terrorists? Seems like there's more action backing up their talk, than you would have us believe....remember 9/11.

Let me tell you a little story about a palestinian terrorist who bombed a Jewish community in Antwerp (Belgium).

This is a true story. It was told to my girlfriends mother by the terrorist himself. She works as a voluntier (talking with the prisoners) in the prison where this terrorist lives and he told her his story.

He told her his whole family was killed by Israeli military in a refugee camp. He saw his mother , father and 2 other brothers got brutaly slaughtered. Moreover some soldiers raped his younger sister before shooting her threw the head. N. (I wont mention his name) could escape. He wandered around for months with his sadness and feelings of anger and revenge, until he met a terrorist group in Palestina. He finally found people who had experienced the same things.

Later he came to Belgium to revenge his family (carbomb in Jewish community in the city of Antwerp)..


Why do I tell you this story? I want to show you that you have to look at both sides of the story. Most people on this board have a much too 'black & white' opinion. They are the good ones and they are the bad ones: it isn't that simple. History is complex and I urge some people on this board to think twice before they post a message.

It seems to me that it are mostly the US people on this board (not all ofcourse) that have, as I call it, a CNN vision on this war.

This war isn't just about the liberation of the iraqy civilians and the fall of the dreadful regime. It's also about power, economy, religion and political views. Every conflict is based on power, economy and/or religion and so is this one.

One thing I know for sure. This war will be the beginning of more conflicts and more extremist groups all over the world. Maybe it will liberate the iraqy people in some ways (not entirely), but the worldwide threat will be greater as before this war (just look at the reactions of the arab world and the suicide voluntiers going to Iraq). The gaps between religions will grow stronger instead of closer after this war. Therefore I think this war is wrong. Their were still other ways to disarm Iraq. And I think it was very dangerous from Bush and company to go to war without approval of the UN.

Hmm I could go on for hours but I think I'll leave it with this.


Peace and security for ALL !!

I guess you moved this thread to perpetuate the myth that the Arab/Israeli conflict has nothing to do with the Iraq war? SAD! VERY SAD!

Not at all - I'm not debating that.. we just need a distinct separation between the two topics since this topic is much more broad than just what is going on in Iraq today..

All right people! Let me share some facts and thought with you:
first of all, THERE IS NO BLACK AND WHITE and no polititian is saint!
Second of all, if there's anyone who deserve Israel are the Jews. The first reason is that they bled for it and died for it (there just idiots for giving away some of it). Next reson: if you ever make a research you"ll find out that nobody knows for sure who are those palastinians. The people who lived here in ancient times all perished long ago, but the Jews (and they didn't leave the place 2000 years ago because they wanted to).
I believe the story that Israel WAS given to the Jews in some sort of way. they only came now to claim it back.
Besides, look how many countries belong to the Arabs! Why can't the palastinians go there?! all the Jews have is a small patch of land! why the hell won't people let them leave their lives?!
Farther more, when Israel was first astablished, half the country was offered to the local Arabs, but they denied thr offer and attacked Israel the very next day! Besides, such an offer was made once more by the former Israeli preme minister Ehud Barak who offered Arafat half the country and half of Jerusalem, and guess what? he didn't accept! (talking of native American's rights, they actually do have the right to claim for America and they tried to before they were kind of sloughtered).
You know what's you're doing right now people? you're praising suecide bombers who savegely sloughter innocent children who go to scool on the bus!!! Do you really belive it's right?!
Another thing, Israel is not racist at all. They don't want to kill all the Arabs like Hitler wanted to do to Jews, Israel just wants to leave peacefully in their own place! In case you havn't noticed, people from all over the world come to live in Israel. Don't you think there's a reason for why they don't accept the palastinians? Maybe it's because the so called palastinians have guns in their homes and because they constantly kill innocent people?!

When the twin towers were "destroyed" and many people were killed, was the US blamed for wanting revange? the answer is no. So why is Israel blamed for wanting revange?
Israel is killing terrorists, not civilians! Besides, since when is it written in the Koran that Jews must be killed?! that's what the killers say before the commit suecide. And since when normal people are proud of their children when they kill little kids?!

It doesn't matter if the Jews had that land long before the Arabs did (which they did) or not. That is because Israel proper was legally purchased at outrageous prices by the Jews. Greedy Arab landowners sold that land and then tried to take it back with war. And they failed (Allah be praised!)
Also, for any of you that like this guy: You should know that his creator is a Jew. Surprised? I wasn't. Because he is funny and clever!
Oh, and Sindy, you are cool! Keep putin these danged (can't swear) anti-semites in their place!

Alright crusader man finally someone to talk to!
All the anti-semites say that the Jews are God's chosen peoples. Well, who knows (although i believe they are), but they never took it for their advantage-they're only victims, and people hate them because of jelousy! But why jelousy? they envy them because they're constantly being killed?! Being God's chosen ones is an honor but it costs many lives and hard times - and this is why i think that Jews are the most suitible people-nobody else could realy honor it-they all would feel suporiors - and Jews never did!

Well, the Jews have been the most hated race of people for thousands of years. After the fall of Ancient Judea, they weren't liked anywhere they went. Ironically, the only place (becides England and North America) where they were really liked was Germany, until Hitler came along.
But despite all of this, the Jews kept their religeon and pressed on. And during the very last part of the 19th century, a few dreamers spread the word of the "return" to Palestine in the Russian pogroms. After this, there was no stopping the Zionist movement.
I believe that it is the Jews' faith that makes them love that land so much. That's why they were able to give birth to a modern country out of a bunch of desert and swampland, surrounded by people that want to drive them into the sea.
The sad thing is, in my opinion, is that everyone that wants to drive the Jews in the sea aren't necessarily jealous because most of them have never even been to Israel (except the Palestinian refugees). The regular Arabs just don't know any better. All they know about Israel is what their corrupt leaders tell them.
What is even sadder, is that with regime changes and hard work, the Arabs could live like the Jews. But instead they just sit around *****ing (or plotting terrorist attacks) about how if the Jews were all gone, then their problems would be solved! It's because of that attitude that Israel's neighbours (except their rulers) are in such bad shape.

Now, this is what I think links the Israel sittuation with the Iraq sittuation. OK, Israel came in more than half a century ago and showed the Arabs that with democracy and other modern ideas, they could have better lives. The Arabs ignored them. Now, America is going to put the mightiest Army in the world right in the centre of the middle east. America now has the opportunity to show the Arabs that they can have a better life through democracy and modern ideas. They might even be able to surpass America in greatness (however unlikely). Do you think that the Arabs will invite America to show them the light, or do you think that they will let their pride get the better of them and try to kill Americans?
History has shown us that they will probably go after America, but history has also shown us that they will probably lose. But what do you think will happen after that? You seem smart and I wanna know your opinion.
Oh, and are you Jewish?

thanks-good to see good people. You don't seem to be that bad yourself.
As an answer to your question-yes i'm Jewish and i'm proud of it. But it doesn't put a barier between me and other religions. Besides, i guess that cristianity for example took a lot of ideas from Jewdaism. Some people even say that Jewdaism is the base of all the religions (something i don't really believe). Are you Jewish?
actually, i don't think that being Jew or not, makes any difference concerning Iraq or the war-it's your opinions and believs that count's.

You know, i think that the Arabs will probably be separated in their ideas concerning America. I think they already are. Some of them will gladly follow Bush or any other leader who will offer them something better then what they have, while the others will follow terrorist organizations and stick with their "government" - some out of fear, some of stupidity.

I don't really think there's an end to this war. It didn't start now with Bush's attack and niether did it start with the Israel intifada. It started much longer but i guess there's no-one who can tell exactly where - small conflicts grew and evolved into greater ones, whether it's with Israel, anti-semism or conflicts between contries like Englan and France. Hard to tell. And it's imposible to tell what is going to happen afterwards because no-one knows when it's going to end. If your talking about the Israeli conflict then it will probably end with the end of the world. If your talking about Bush's war, i think that at the end (which is far away) America is going to win, but the whole world is going to suffer before that happens.
What do you think?

I'm not Jewish. Sometimes I wish I was but then I look down and my precious foreskin and realize that I'd miss it too much.

But what do I think the future holds for the Mid-East? Well, I know in my heart of hearts that Israel will never fall. If it does than the world will go with it. But I think that somehow, all of the radical Arabs will be unified under some false prophet and there will be a big war that will last a long time. But when I go over there (with the Brits), I'll try and put a stop to it soon and go home to what I hope will be a safer place. There will be a long fight and I think a nuke or two will probably detonate but in the end, the West will win.

Oh yeah, and do you remember Nov. 29, 2002, when Al Qaeda attacked that Israeli hotel and tried to shoot down and El-Al plane? Well, they attacked that day because it was the anniversary of Israel's partition by the UN. Do you think that the terrorists will strike again on May 14, Israel's Independence Day?

first of all i'm gald you somtimes wished to be a Jew - it's kind of fun Second of all, as a Jew, i really admire a non-Jew (you) being so supportive of Israel - i really wish everyone were more like you.

Well, from what i hear, terrorist are being cought at Israeli borders everyday so i think that such a day as the Israeli independence day would be dangerous. On the other hand, there were many other "big days" when nothing happened and insegnificant days when 20-30 people were killed, so who knows?

By the way, do you think that Sadam is alive? and if you do, do you think he'll attack Israel?

I don't know if anything will happen inside of Israel on May 14. I think a Synagogue or something will be attacked outside of Israel on that day. Hopefully not tho.

Awww, yer sweet to say those things.

Do I think Sadaam is alive. Yeah, I think he is. But I'm surprised he hasn't attacked Israel yet. But if he has the ability to, then I think he will. That might even happen in the next few days or as soon as the 7th Cavalry lays seige to Baghdad.

Sorry to say, but Israelis should look in mirrow and why there are those suicidebombers. You have to understand that those people get nothing to wait from the future and thats why they are so easy to talk for those things. The israeli occupation have done that.
And no i am anseminist, i am not for these suicideactions, i´ll just wanna think...

Vepsu, I can't understand anything you typed.

i didn't really understand what you were trying to say vepsu but if your saying that the palastinians have no future-we'll you're right. But they brought it upon themselves-not the Israelys. They are corrupted people and the fact that no Arab country wanted to have them proves it.

Phew... I've been reading all this thread and I wished it weren't so looooooong cause I had so much anger & thought inside that I wanted to let out.

First of all, I'm shocked that there are so many anti-Israelis here in this forum and even more shocked to know HOW MUCH they're ANTI, wishing for deaths of jews, nuking Israel, stop US aid, etc.

Has Israel ever done anything to you?

And someone here has been talking about "you ignore historic facts, palestinians have lived here many years before the jews came" ... I wouldn't call it historic facts as they are not true.

I totally agree with Sindy and Crusader_Man. I'm glad there are some who support Israel and the jews.

In fact, I would like to inform you: I've watched a tv program about Christian Evangelists who support Israel and think that the whole Palestine belongs to them. They say there are 170 million Evangelists all over the world who aid Israel and fully support it. I'm not entirely sure about that, but that program really was a good news.

Palestinians are refugees who came from Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc... They have 50-60 states, lots of land but they also want this tiny piece called "Palestine"... it's like... uhhhh, 0.001% of what they already possess??

Read this article: http://yashiko.middleeastfacts.com/Palestinians.html
Note: It's been written by a Japanese American.

They didn't want Jews to live next to them.

thanks anti-jihad there more people understand that Israel is not a terrorist country and that it's rightfully belongs to Jews and not the palastinians-the better Israel will be.

Israel has achieved so much in those 50 years that it doesn't even seem realistic. It was nothing but a desert and a few mountains before Jews came there and turned it into what it is today although it took so many lives and wars-people just stopped appriciating it-even Israelis - they're givving up their own land.

Those palastinians don't belong to Israel - they can find their own peace of free land and live "happily" over there. There's a reason for why no Arab country wants those terrorists and there's a reason for why all of them want Israel. I guess there's something special in that country after all.

OK, now, some historic facts: (to ANTI-Israelis who got F in the history class)

I felt the importance to translate it and post it here because I truly believe that people have the right to know the truth and I hope they will and will believe it.

In the beginning of April 1936 2 Jews were killed, Jews demanded revenge and killed 4 Arabs, Arabs were furious and killed 9 Jews...

In April, 25th 1936 the Top Arabic Committee has been established and in the head of it was Haj Amin Al Housseini.
They demanded from the British 3 things: (The British controlled Palestine during 1917-1948)

1) Fully stop the immigration of Jews to Palestine.
2) Forbid giving lands to Jews.
3) Establish the National Arabic Government.

They've started a general strike until the British would agree to their conditions.
The strike continued for 175 days and her main aim was to destroy the Jewish economy. They stopped working as farmers, clerks, they stopped trading, etc... Terrorist acts against Jews were part of the strike.
There were inner terror acts between Arabs and themselves and many got killed. British troops dispersed some of their other acts.

The strike ended when Haj Amin understood that he had failed. He asked the Arab leaders to demand from him to stop the strike (so that it won't look as a failure) and they agreed - it was later found in the documents.

During the strike 91 Jews were killed and 369 were injured. British troops and policemen were killed too.
During the period of 1936-1939 over 400 Jews were killed.

As a result of the conflict, British Lord Pil was called to Palestine to resolve the conflict. He had 66 meetings with British, Arab and Jewish officers.

Arabs: Haj Amin blamed the Zionism's aim to destroy the Arab temples and build the Holy Temple.
He blamed them from stealing Arabs work in farming and demanded to stop the immigration of Jews.
He proposed an agreement with England to establish an Arab state in Palestine.

Jews: Talked about their achievments in Israel and blamed the British Mandat and asked Britain to act according to the Mandat.
Zhabotinski said that Arabs have their own countries and that all the nations in the world have their own countries but Jews.
Ben-Gurion said: Palestine is the only place we could see as our country.

Pil has come to the following conclusions:
The land of Palestine should be divided to 3 parts:
The Jewish state: The Galil (Northern part) - 17% of Palestine.
The Arab state: The rest except Jaffo and Jerusalem - ~78%.
The British Mandat: Jerusalem, Jaffo and the path between - ~5%.

In addition to that, Pil proposed:
1)Allowing exchange of population between the regions.
2)The Jewish state will have to pay the Arab state every year (because the north is more fertile.
3)Jews will be allowed to buy lands on their own state
4)The amount of Jews immigrating to Palestine will be limited to 12,000 (for 5 years)

All the Arabs STRONLY DISAGREED saying that the whole land belongs to them
They were insulted by the British and all the Arab countries rejected the idea as well.

The Jews - Some accepted and some didn't.

I'll post the rest later if you're not too tired to read.

Post some more - I'll read it.

No-not tired. It's interesting actually-i knew about all this but not the details so i dind't want to write about it-so thanks-you're helping me to clear my points

like i said before, the land was offered to the palastinians 2 more times (but you probably know that), and they didn't agree. that proves something-they want the whole land, but it's not really the land they're after-it's they're desire to get the Jews the hell out of there! Why? only because they hate Jews.

The palastinians are shouting to the whole world that they are poor and don't get any right-noncense! They got more rights then they could swallow! Besides, they're killers! And their children are potential killers - that's what they teach most of them at school (and if not at school then at home-no difference). It's dengerous fighting against brainwashed people, so one must find the original brainwasher and eliminate him.

p.s - i'll be witing for the rest of your statement

No-not tired. It's interesting actually-i knew about all this but not the details so i dind't want to write about it-so thanks-you're helping me to clear my points

like i said before, the land was offered to the palastinians 2 more times (but you probably know that), and they didn't agree. that proves something-they want the whole land, but it's not really the land they're after-it's they're desire to get the Jews the hell out of there! Why? only because they hate Jews.

The palastinians are shouting to the whole world that they are poor and don't get any right-noncense! They got more rights then they could swallow! Besides, they're killers! And their children are potential killers - that's what they teach most of them at school (and if not at school then at home-no difference). It's dengerous fighting against brainwashed people, so one must find the original brainwasher and eliminate him.

p.s - i'll be waiting for the rest of your statement

Thanks Sindy! You're totally right!

And these brainwashed people brainwash the whole world. Tourists that come to Israel get convinced that what they've been told in the news is not true. The problem now is that there are no tourists coming...

I'll post the rest now... It'll take me a couple of minutes though.

By the way, there were twice or thrice more Arabs than Jews in Palestine.

The 2nd convention called "Woodhead" (Sir Johan Woodhead) was sent to Israel and got to the conclusion that there is no way to divide the land.
The 3rd convention "Saint James" or "The Round Table" was held in London. The Round Table symbolizes equality, however, Arabs and Jews didn't want to sit next to each other in the same table. The convention ended in no result and then "The White Book" has been published.
McDonald's White Book reflected Britain's new policy in Palestine and it stated the following:

1) Within the next 10 years, an Arabic state will be established in Palestine.
2) The Jewish immigration will be limited to 75,000 for the first 5 years and after that immigration will be allowed only if the Arabs would agree (as if they would have agreed).
3) Jews won't be allowed to buy land on 95% of the state.

No Jewish state. Jews would live in the Arab state and most likely be massacred.

Most of the Arabs agreed, even though some didn't, saying that Jews shouldn't have a right to be in Palestine at all.
The Jews called the book "The Black Book". Some of them agreed without a choice, others rejected.

Meanwhile, a few fighting organizations have been established - The British accepted that the Jews would replace the British guards and policemen. Jews were given weapons and were taught tactics by the British Army. They've helped to protect the Jewish camps. In January 1939, 10 regiments were established and consisted of 15,000 Jewish policemen.
In order to bend the rule, Jews built settlements at nights in the "Tower & Wall" style - a fast way to build and protect a small settlement. They've built over 50 camps since 1936 and created a territorial continuity from the north to the south.

There've been other events during the years 1945-1947, but it was a conflict between the British troops and the Jewish resistance groups.
In 1947, United States was shocked by the fact that 100,000 Jews had to go back to the concentration camps in Germany after the war because they didn't have a place to go. The United States asked Britain to allow these Jews enter Palestine.
In October 15th, 1947, Bevin - The Foreign Minister of Britain has decided to give the problem with the British Mandat in Palestine to the decision of the U.N. He was sure that they wouldn't solve the problem anyway.

UNITED NATIONS SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON PALESTINE has been created by the U.N. 11 Countries from all over the world would participate in this committee to decide on the problem of Palestine.
The Soviet Union supported Jews and said they deserve an independent state. Probably because British Empire was the 2nd most powerful and was about to collapse and U.S.S.R wanted to take its place.

The U.N. has made a decision: They divided the land giving the Arabs around 40% of Palestine - the strip of Gaza, the Northern Galil and a lot of territory around Jerusalem. The Jews get ~55% of the land - The eastern-northern part of Palestine, The Jaffo-Acco strip and the whole desert - the south. The international territory would be Jerusalem even though it would be surrounded by Arab territory and won't be able to be accessed by Jews.
Saturday, 29th November, 1947 - The day when the decision was made. 56 countries voted for & against the plan.
The Jews tried to convince the countries where it was unclear what they would vote. They did all they could to convince countries to vote for the plan. The Arabs were certain that most of the countries would vote against it. The British were neutral and the American were for the plan.
33 countries supported the plan, 13 countries were against it (Turkey, Iran, India, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Greece, Cuba and others), 10 were neutral.

It meant that the two states would be established within two months after the ending of the British Mandat over Palestine which was supposed to be finished due August 15th, 1948.
The next day the Arab started shooting a bus with Jews in the Airport of Lod and killed 5 jews. This has started the Indendence war of Israel.

The palastinians are the ones who always start things like that! And then Israel is blamed for replying! What the hell do they expect Israel to do when they're attacked?! Use diplomacy whith the terrorists? Praise the suicide bombers? Be sorry for the familys of the killers?!
Whenever a war begins in Israel, Israel is blamed for this. It doesn't matter that the Palastinians blow up busses full of kids, it doesn't matter that kids go to school with gas masks, it doesn't matter that the Israelys live in fear of being killed, but Israel and the Jews are the bad guys and the killers, terrorists and tyrans are only poor innocent poeple who murder poeple because the Israelys made their lives hard by giving them rights! This is how the world sees it! Is that what they call justice?!

People! It doesn't matter who are those people in the buses! Jewish or not, they're still human, and they still have familys! Why then, is it so wrong to want to eliminate those who are killing them?! Why is it alright to have mercy on those killers?!

P.S
Where are you from in Israel anti-jihad? Just curious.

I used to live in a small peaceful town in the south east of Israel, just near the Dead Sea. I used to visit some places that will be given to the Palestinians. Now I live in Tel Aviv.

It's scary to see new settlements, towns and even cities getting built in the whole country, in the south especially. Where there were deserts, there are lousy build ruin-like houses, three floored villas. These are whether Arab-Israeli towns (populated with Arabs only) or Bedouins. Even in my small town I met a lot of Israeli-Arabs especially in the Bazaar (selling fruits, vegetables and stolen goods like illegal tapes) they seem to be nice and fine, being employed and everything... But building illegally new towns and having their population increase rate twice or even thrice higher than those of Israelis sort of makes me worry a little to the fate of Israel.

When I lived in the small town, our car was stolen. Luckily, there was insurance and we got the money for the car. But the funny thing is that our insurancy agent had told us a week later that his car had been stolen too a few days after ours.

One of my friends told me how one of HIS friends had lost a car in the same way and the police wouldn't deal with it, so he went to Gaza and found his car there piling up along with other cars, and he stole it back. Now that's a risk!

Lately, there's been a TV program about car stealing in the south, it seems that every day at least one car is being stolen by the Bedouins in Beer-Sheva. They showed how they caught a couple of them.

What's up with me & the car stealing?!

Tell me about yourself now

When I think about politics in Israel and Israelis's opinion and then I go back and think about people who hate Israel for being so cruel, extremistic and violent it makes me laugh & puke at the same time.

It could be clearly seen that the first and the most important thing that Israelis want here is PEACE, people - you hear that? PEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCEEEEEEE...

Almost half of Israelis believe in giving Palestinians a state and living side by side with them. Almost half of Israelis, a little less, voted for the left winged parties. But even those who voted for the right winged parties with peace, they just have a different opinion. Left winged believe that they should agree to all conditions that Palestinians put on the table, in other words, do what Arafat says, or in even other words: "take it, take whatever you want! just give us some peace!".

The right winged (the non-extremists) believe that Israel should negotiate with the Palestinians, but make sure that this agreement won't ruin even more Israel's security. They believe that giving them a state now, when hundred of terrorist activists are free on the streets, controlling Palestinian minds and ruling the authority (Arafat and his friends), giving them a state may result in another Tyranny like Saddam, only much closer to Israel, easily and legally or accidentally letting terrorists invade Israel and continue the terror. Arafat said clearly that he wants the WHOLE Israel. Abu Mazen, the new prime minister of the Palestinian authority, the one that Britain and US and maybe even UN hope Israel to make peace with and resume negotiations had once released his book called The Other Side: The Secret Relationship between Nazism and the Zionist Movement where he says that the figure of six million Jews murdered by the Nazis was a false one, "peddled" by the Jews.
Zionists, he contends, collaborated with the Nazis to murder Jews, in order to gain sympathy for the creation of the State of Israel.

Here's another quote by Abu Mazen:
— PLO spokesman Mahmud Abbas ("Abu Mazen"),
Falastin a-Thaura, March 1976
“Saddam, you hero, attack Israel with chemical weapons.”

The funny thing is, that once Abu Mazen came to the general picture and was exposed to the media, he smilingly, scratching the back of his head started giving his wishing for peace and living side by side with the Israelis, so called Nazi's cooperatives.

And these are quotes from Arafat:
— Yasser Arafat,
Baghdad Republic of Iraq Radio Network, November 16, 1991

“I have always rejected normalizing relations with (Israeli) women....They always invite me to their functions and I categorically refuse because I hate Israel.”

— Suha Arafat, wife of Yasser Arafat,
Saudi Arabian women's magazine, Sayidaty, quoted by AP, May 3, 2001

“We will not give up a single grain of soil in Palestine, from Haifa, and Jaffa, and Acre, and Mulabbas [Petah Tikvah] and Salamah, and Majdal [Ashkelon], and all the land, and Gaza, and the West Bank....”

Now imagine what would have happened if Israeli left-winged parties had given him land without asking anything back, recognizing him as a partner for peace... or asking & trusting his loyalty. If after Arafat and his friends be removed, Israeli people find out that Sharon is lying to his people and to the Palestinains and doesn't give them a Palestinian state when suicide bombings stopped and the authority is eager to make honest negotiations, the Israeli people themselves will make sure to bring Sharon down. I don't think that Sharon isn't seeking peace, we all do.

Only one little thing - because i have to go -
Vepsu: what are UN resolushoins compared to human lives?!?!?!?!



P.S
Anti-jihad, i'll right to you later bye -

hmmm, interesting that you say that, ironically, an hour ago there were news and they reported that Marwan Bin Khatib Bargouti (The leader of the Tanzym / Al Aqsa Martyr Brygades terrorist group) who was captured by the IDF and interrogated, after months of interrogation, today and before, he reveals the truth.

Among the things he told Israel was that the second intifada didn't break out because of Ariel Sharon, he was just a reason they anticipated in order to start it, it was the failure of the Camp David agreements that first angered Arafat and his followers.

He also says that he had many disagreements with Arafat and claims that he was responsible for many terrorist acts in Israel.

If someone goes up the holy mountain, especially someone who was not even a prime minister, it doesn't CAUSE an intifada, it just turns the yellow light to the green one.

Right after the massacre, Israel recognized it as a mistake and everyone urged Sharon to resign and so he did.

Sharon regrets his past and is trying to forget it. He gave the order and that caused all the blame to be put on him.

However, you must agree that the war in Lebanon was justified.

Sometimes it looks like people hate a certain nation because of its government, because a certain percentage of the nation chose a certain candidate, and even this percentage of people couldn't foresee certain mistakes that the leadership, chosen by them, has committed and I'm not necessarily talking about you.

Almost every government is responsible for killing of innocent civilians, or at least responsible for not being able to prevent it and/or not taking any action after it.

The war in Chechnya has claimed the lives of many civilians including children. Terrorist groups there are more brutal than many other terrorist groups around the globe. One would prefer not to depict their ways of torture. Even an Israeli boy accidentally became a victim of such group. Adi Sharon visited Moscow with his father and was kidnapped by a terrorist group that contained both Russians and Chechens. They demanded a ransom of $5 million but then cut it to $1 million. The father payed the first $50,000 and as the Russian forces advanced in Chechnya, the contact with the group ceased. Since the payments stopped, the group cut off two of the 12 year old boy's fingers and mailed them to the father. After ten months of being held as a captive, he was rescued by the Russian police special forces.

Interesting how Chechens fail to draw the attention of world's media to their suffering. Some Russian soldiers who fought in Chechnya have decided to join the IDF in Israel. They say they know how it's like and think that the enemy in Chechnya is the same enemy here. They haven't been accepted yet since there's no actual war going on in here and they're not Israeli citizens, but they'll overlook it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anti-Jihad
[B]
However, you must agree that the war in Lebanon was justified.

According these new rules maybe it was, but that was stupid when Israel create that so called security zone in southern Lebanon.

You got rid of PLO, but instead Hizbollah started to grow, because of that occupation.

And you know what kind of exrimists they are...

Yes, they may be extremists but not as dangerous as the PLO was. PLO went on with his suicide bombings and they were piling up weapons in the southern border of Lebanon. 15-18,000 members of the PLO, 5-6,000 of them were foreign mercenaries who came from countries like Lybia, Iraq, India, Sri Lanka, Chad and Mozambique.

They had an arsenal of weapons that could equip five brigades. They had mortars, Katyusha rockets and an extensive anti-aircraft network. They also had hundreds of T34 tanks and Syria brought surface-to-air missiles to the region.

When Cuba imposed a clear threat on the United States, piling up with missiles, United States didn't sit quietly and waited to be destroyed. They've secured the area by using battleships and blocked the way of the Soviet supplies. That was a smart move that Kennedy took and it maybe had prevented the beginning of the real cold war.

Yes, maybe they were nuclear missiles, but then Cuba is quite far from the eastern coast of the United States and Lebanon is next to Israel. I agree that if Cuba launched missiles on the US there would be more casualties and killed but I'm sure that if the threat was 10 times smaller, a threat of killing 100-1000 people (and more if time allows) I'm sure he'd have taken action as well.

To answer your former question, I quote:

The Security Zone's Utility

Prior to the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, cross-border incursions were a popular mode of operation among Palestinian guerrilla organizations. Many of the cases in which terrorists crossed the fence and broke into Israeli settlements ended in murderous attacks on civilians. In 1970, Palestinian terrorists attacked an Israeli school bus en route from Moshav Avivim, killing twelve children. Four years later, twenty-one school children were murdered in Ma‘alot. In another attack, eighteen Israelis were killed in Kiryat Shmona, and in July 1980, terrorists took hostages in the nursery of Kibbutz Misgav Am. The brutal and surprising nature of the attacks had a devastating effect on the sense of personal security and morale of Israel's northerners, thus hampering the socioeconomic development of Israel's northern district. Terrorism and Katyusha attacks prompted the 1978 invasion of Lebanon. But after the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) withdrew a few months later, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) reestablished themselves in southern Lebanon, complete with tanks and artillery. Intent on permanently removing this threat, Israel recaptured the area—all the way to Beirut—in June 1982. This campaign war succeeded in driving the PLO away from Lebanon but failed to create the new order Israel desired; instead of the PLO, Israel now faced Hizbullah, an Iranian-inspired organization of radical Shi`i Muslims. Negotiations between Israel and Lebanon finally brought about, on May 17, 1983, a peace treaty between the two countries, but massive Syrian pressure forced the Lebanese government to suspend the treaty.

The collapse of the May 1983 Israeli-Lebanese peace agreement put an end to prior Israeli hope of creating a new order in Lebanon, and Israel began to look for a way to disentangle itself from its involvement in Lebanon. Two options were debated by the national unity government headed by Shimon Peres. One option was a unilateral withdrawal from all Lebanese territory; the other was the establishment of a security zone controlled by the IDF and the South Lebanese Army (SLA)—a militia controlled, trained and paid for by Israel. The proponents of the security zone, among them cabinet ministers Yitzhak Shamir, Ariel Sharon, and Moshe Arens, believed that the only way to protect the Jewish settlements in northern Israel was by maintaining an Israeli military presence on Lebanese soil. They believed that an "insulation layer" between Israel and the non-Christian population of Lebanon would deny terrorist groups access to the border and would reduce the threat of artillery fire against targets in Israel. They assumed that an Israeli presence on the ground would prevent south Lebanon from becoming what it was before June 1982: an arsenal and training ground for anti-Israeli groups.

These proponents got their way, and on January 14, 1985, Defense Minister Yitzhak Rabin announced the cabinet decision to deploy the IDF in southern Lebanon. By June 1985, Israel and the SLA took control over what would be the security zone. The depth of this zone ranged between three and twelve miles, depending on the terrain. Forty-five SLA and IDF outposts were built in strategic locations to obstruct the free movement of would-be infiltrators. The number of Israeli soldiers deployed in the security zone ranged between 1,000 and 1,500. The SLA was 2,500 strong in addition to a few hundred members of the intelligence service called Mabat (an abbreviation of manganon habitachon, or "security apparatus") working under the supervision of the Israeli General Security Service (GSS).1

From the outset, the main purpose of the security zone was to prevent the infiltration of terrorists into Israel. It worked. The 328-square-mile security zone shielded Israel's northern settlements from the wrath of Hizbullah, AMAL, and the rejectionist Palestinian groups. In the fifteen years the security zone existed, only nine guerrilla squads succeeded in reaching the border; of those nine, just two successfully crossed into Israel. In both cases, the terrorists were killed before they were able to attack civilian targets. In the first years of the security zone, many terrorist squads were ambushed and eradicated by IDF and SLA forces long before they reached the border. The high rate of success in targeting terrorists en route to the border reduced the motivation of these groups to continue their attempts to infiltrate into Israel. The great success of the security zone in preventing infiltration enhanced the sense of security among the residents of northern Israel. For fifteen years, Israel's north was relatively secure, and its residents could maintain a relatively normal life style. The civilian population grew accustomed to an improved quality of life. People could move freely at all hours of the day without fear, and a successful tourism industry has developed in most of the border settlements, attracting thousands of tourists every year and becoming a major source of income for the region's residents.

The Katyusha Problem

Even the harshest critics of Israel's security zone policy acknowledged its success in preventing cross-border incursions, but they still held that the policy was, in fact, a failure due to the fact that the residents of Israel's north were not entirely secure because throughout the fifteen-year occupation of south Lebanon, they were subjected to Hizbullah mortar and rocket attacks. Critics point out that despite the IDF's overwhelming technological superiority, Israel failed to supply a decisive answer to the Katyusha threat. Katyusha alerts forced the civilian population to spend days and nights in bomb shelters inflicting financial losses on the frustrated northerners. Two large-scale military operations—the 1993 Operation Accountability and the 1996 Operation Grapes of Wrath—demonstrated how difficult it is to hunt down well-hidden rocket launchers in Lebanon's mountainous terrain. The pullout proponents argued that since the security zone failed to eliminate the threat of Katyushas, there was no point in maintaining the military presence there.

This argument is only partially correct. Yes, Hizbullah and rejectionist Palestinian groups fired thousands of rockets into the Galilee, but at almost no point did they succeed in firing Katyushas from within the security zone. Most launching sites were either north of the Litani River or in the Nabatiya area at a distance of 10-12 miles from their targets. The buffer zone prevented Hizbullah from launching its Katyusha rockets from their most effective and accurate range of 6-8 miles. This made most Hizbullah artillery attacks inaccurate. Furthermore, the topography of the security zone denied Hizbullah the ability to position forward observers to look into the Galilee and adjust their fire. As a result, hundreds of rockets fell in open, uninhabited areas causing minimal damage. More than 4,000 Katyusha rockets landed in the Galilee in the years 1985-2000, but remarkably, only seven civilians were killed by this weapon.

The claim of the pullout advocates that the security zone was totally ineffective in protecting against Katyushas is, therefore, misguided. With Hizbullah moving closer to the borderline following the Israeli pullout, 145 Israeli localities now fall within the range of Hizbullah's artillery as opposed to 81 in range previously. That is, the overall number of Israelis threatened by Katyushas after the pullout has jumped from 200,000 to approximately 350,000.2

Abandoning the South Lebanese Army

The 2,500-strong SLA, Israel's staunchest ally in the Middle East, shouldered most of the burden of the operational activity in south Lebanon: out of forty-five outposts in the security zone, only eight were occupied by the IDF; the rest were held by the SLA. The SLA also paid a very heavy price for its loyalty to Israel. Since 1985, more than 450 SLA soldiers have been killed, and more than 1,300 wounded. This casualty rate came from a total south Lebanese civilian population of approximately 100,000. If not for the SLA's assistance, Israel would have had to deploy many more troops in Lebanon and surely would have sustained more casualties.

The cooperation of the SLA and IDF in the security zone also had important implications for Israel's strategic environment. The SLA facilitated friendly relations between Israel and the Christian population of the south, which were essential to preventing the region from falling into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists or Palestinian rejectionists. In this sense, the security zone was not only a geographical barrier but also a cultural and ideological obstacle to the spread of Islamic fundamentalism and Syrian expansion toward the Israeli border.

The SLA's familiarity with the region provided Israel with important intelligence on the whereabouts of the slippery Hizbullah fighters. This information helped prevent many terror attacks and enabled the Israeli intelligence services to identify relevant targets for the IDF to attack. Former head of the GSS Ya'akov Perry defined the relations between the GSS and Mabat as "a very tight alliance."3 The destruction of the SLA in May 2000 also closed down Israel's relations with the civilian population of south Lebanon.

http://www.meforum.org/article/70

yes, SLA deserves much more appreciation that has been given to it, but then again, I don't know what exactly went on 20 years ago and whether Israel could do more to help SLA, now it's easier to judge. But anyhow, SLA helped save lives of many civilians sacrificing theirs.