Ongoing Debate About Homosexuality

Culture & Society Forum

Devildog: Feel better? You don't get it. I don't care what you do,man. 2 partners, 3...I don't care. Just shut up and keep it to yourself. I don't want to hear it or see it.

Devil, how many gay couples are having sexual relations right before your very eyes? Why is it even necessary to comment “Shut up and keep it to yourself”? If you’re referring to same sex couples showing any kind of affection in public, well then by that token, it should be illegal for any couples to show public displays of affection, including heterosexual couples.
Devildog:Fair. Good. Your post was full of holes and I could spend some time picking at it,but it just isn't that important to me.

If the posts responding to your comments have no importance to you, why do you continue to reply with increasingly agitated dissertations in an attempt to support an anti-equal rights agenda?

Devildog:Here are just a couple things that stick out the most and are probably the easiest for you to understand. The first is one of the best. Classic. Just like I have predicted from my very first post here. The masses must conform to the miscreant behavior and deal with it OR it is YOU who must change.

I love that word miscreant. In a sense you’re supporting your idea that homosexuals are somehow deviant. I honestly don’t understand how you can have a best friend who is gay and hold this kind of mentality about homosexuals. Either you’re lying or your friend is a glutton for punishment and disrespect.

Devildog: "you can change the channel". How about if it is you who wants that smut ,then it is you who should have to seek it out. I don't care about pay channels because it is my choice not to subscribe,however, radio and broadcast TV must change.

What is this “smut” you’re referring to? Will & Grace? The Ellen DeGeneros Show? Dr. Phil? Maybe it’s the Tonight Show? Please define your idea of smut.

Devildog: The silent majority. I know, its the parents fault,right? While parent is in bathroom,child sits on remote and is exposed to porn on ABC, CBS, NBC. That's great for the country.

Wow, porn on network TV? And here I was renting payperview with my boyfriend, silly me. Devil I think the point outsider was trying to make is that if you’re so incredibly offended by the “smut” you see on TV or hear on the radio, the intelligent thing to do would be turn it off.

Devildog: Too bad you're not intelligent enough to see the impact of our declining immoral society. Some day you may.

Wow, no that’s just a straight up lashing out against someone who’s opinion differs from yours. I suppose I could stoop to your level and question your intelligence or attack you naivety for being a kid attempting to converse with adults. But I don’t want to stoop to that level, I really just wish you could carry on an intellectual debate without flying off the handle. But that could simply be a sign of your young age. Oops, there I go…

Devildog: You want all 16 yr olds and above to voice their opinion? Too bad. They can't. They are children. You want that changed too? Should we lower the consent age? You are brilliant! Why don't you just say what you mean? Until I can get a vote or count that reflects positively in your favor....you don't want to see it.Typical.

You missed Outsider’s point ENTIRELY. Way to blow it out of proportion! He was debunking your claim that “the majority of the U.S.” is against Gay Marriage. He asked you to do a real poll of all people your age and older because a poll of 1500 people cannot be trusted to reflect the opinions of all Americans. Now obviously he doesn’t expect you to actually contact every teen in America, but his request I’m sure was simply meant to put things in perspective for you.

Devildog: And how could my brother(don't have one) contest my free will supported by a legal document? That is what lawyers are for. You tell them what you want ,while you are in stable condition and it is a slam dunk case. Contest all you want. You will lose. Hell,you could even video tape your wishes and secure your will for your partner.The hamster was just an example. Every day people are leaving huge settlements to strangers, pets, churches, charities, etc. There doesn't seem to be a problem if they have prepared legally. Nice try.

I guess you’re not very experienced with contested will cases. It happens all the time. Even with legally prepared documents family members have contested last will & testaments of gay men and women and won the estate, even if the deceased lover was named soul beneficiary. Why? Because the government still doesn’t acknowledge same sex unions as having the same rights as say, oh I don’t know, a heterosexual marriage?

Devildog: And for you to compare a bold faced deadly lie told to children about the dangers of aids to the information campaign about cancer is irresponsible, dangerous and flat out ignorant. You can't even admit that. Therefore we are in different universes.

Maybe you didn’t watch that episode of sesame street. What they said was indeed accurate. I don’t know where you’re getting your “facts” that it’s dangerous to hug a person with AIDS, but I assure you, you’re grossly misinformed. The whole concept behind teaching kids that the HIV infected muppet was not a threat is to hopefully create a generation of children who will not treat those who are sick or different as outcasts. Something that we’ve obviously failed in your generation.

Devildog: My point was this; I'm married so, If I don't shoot drugs in my arm, or have ass-sex with a man than the chances are pretty damn low outsider. However, it is VERY realistic that we suffer from arthritis, hepatitis C, Breast cancer, Cervical Cancer, Prostate cancer, skin cancer, diabetes. And if I do,I won't be happy at all outsider, because if you combine every one of those I just mentioned, you will find the Aids and HIV get more of MY money than all of them joined. You don't like the way that sounded? Tough. Debunk it. You can't, those are facts. Just like these: In the year 2000 , 710,760 people died from cardio -related disease, another 553,091 died from cancer while AIDS-related deaths totaled just 14,270. I guess this is fair in your world. Full of compassion.

All disease research has funds donated by the government and individuals. Cancer doesn’t get as much finding as AIDS? What are you smoking and why aren’t you sharing? Let’s look at the different of Cancer research donation options we have, there’s children’s cancer, veteran’s cancer, ovarian cancer, prostate cancer, lung cancer, breast cancer etc. etc. AIDS has HIV/AIDS research and the pediatric AIDS foundation. And by the way, does it bother you that your taxes are helping pay for medical research? It doesn’t bother me, and I’m forking over $1000 plus to the IRS this year. What are you complaining about taxes for anyway? How much can you possibly be paying?


Devildog: And finally,I don't care what you believe. Whether I have a gay best friend ,and Brother-in-law doesn't really matter. But I do wonder why you feel as if I would want to lie about that. Do you think I am so fake as to want acceptance from a certain group of people, thereby I lie about knowing some gay people? Listen up. I don't care if you like me or not. Get it?

This isn’t about gaining acceptance Devil, this is about voicing our differing opinions. It’s not a popularity contest and we’re not trying to make you feel unwanted, unliked or unloved. The only reason some of us feel you might be lying about having a gey friend or brother-in-law is because those of us who actually DO have gay friends and gay people themselves, tend to see your ideas as anti-gay entirely.

Devildog: I am just brutally(some times) honest.

In that respect, so are we. In our opinions, we are honest. In your opinion, so are you. That doesn’t necessarily mean that because it is honest, it must be the truth.

Devildog: This would explain why my posts get so many panties in a bunch. You can't handle the truth(apply your best J.Nicholson voice here).I know what I said in my posts. I stand by what I said. And I will be anxiously awaiting someone to show me my inaccuracies. Not too interested in what you think of me though.But if ya like and it makes ya happy,have at it. Justify the thrill.

Great! It’s good to see people courageous enough to stand by their ideas and convictions. But again “truth” Is a subjective word. It’s rather presumptuous and arrogant to assume that only you are speaking the truth while those with differing opinions to yours MUST be complete idiots. You might want to reconsider your frame of thinking in that respect, but then again, you might just need a few years to grow out of this raging angst.

Peace.

originally posted by devildog

Justify the thrill.

Thrill?

Youre kidding right?

Well....I have to say that by you calling this issue a thrill, right then and there classifies you as a person who will never understand the true meaning of equality.

Ill justify it under the context of the issue of equality...

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

The 14th Amendment provides that ALL people have the right to be protected under the law equally.

Our constitution states that "All men are created equal."

See Devildog...the issue is about everyone being privileged to the same rights and equality under the law. We have it written everywhere that equality is the way to go....yet it isnt practiced...but thats changing because people can see that if someone is left out in this equation then its possible that they too can be the next victim..

And if thats the case...maybe you are the next victim....are you really willing to take that chance? Im not...

Gay marriage and homosexuality doesnt threaten me...nor should it threaten you....which leads me to wonder why does it? Are you that afraid of your own sexuality that you would take away the rights of others?

Hmmm...something to ponder.

MOD- Can we make a gay-discussion forum since there are a whole lot of threads about this topic? The general discussion is getting a little gay.

-HECK!

About the AIDS thing. It costs money, yes. It costs more than any other illness even though it isn't the number one killer. What does this have to do with gay people?

As a side note, I think it gets more money than the others because, although it isn't the number one killer now, it may some day be. That thing does spread pretty well and it should be stopped no matter what the cost.

Nature: man + woman

Not Man + Man or woman + woman

humans CANNOT and SHOULD NOT become homosexuals. we would screw up nature and our own natural purpose of reproduction.

Yeah, I love that argument too. And to back it up, it's usually the same argument again.

"NATURE!! REPRODUCTION!!!" Yeah, what about it? "Well it's nature and reproduction, can't you see?" Good. Well done. Have a biscuit.


I'd love to see someone using that argument tell me straight out their reasoning behind it. By natural do you mean it doesn't happen in nature, among animals? Or what? And why is it so important that everything is "natural"? A lot of what we humans have and do could hardly be considered natural, plastic being an obvious example since it doesn't appear in nature. Yet I don't hear people demanding that these unnatural abominations be made illegal.

Please, next time anyone uses the "naural/unnatural, reproduction" argument, tell us what you mean by it, don't just shout the words. Thank you.

I believe it was our Declaration of Independence that stated "all men are created equal". I know that American History isn't that important to you, so I figured I better explain it to you geniuses. This,by the way, is why I "ponder" nothing from your rhetoric.

Thank you for the clarification. I think I'm slowly beginning to grasp the concept of sexually transmitted disease.

And I'd be glad if you could show me something about the gay lobbyists exerting pressure. I really am that uninformed. It could be because I'm not American and don't get the same news as you do. I can see them wanting AIDS research to be funded, but that they are the main reason for it getting so much money is news to me.

Quickly, A few posts back (might be on the other thread) I outline just a FEW examples of OUR tax dollars that are being squandered. It was about workshops that go through about 600,000 just in San Fransicko alone. Well god forbid, someone challenged it(I think her name is J. Gerberding) stating that OUR $ was supposed to be for aids/hiv prevention NOT the promotion of a deadly lifestyle as it clearly was. She was doing her job. She heads the cdc and threatened to withhold funding. When this got out 150 HIV/AIDS likeminded groups, thrashed the CDC. Yes,I said 150!!! One has to admire their organization abilities. As you might expect she backed down. They claimed" The HIV epidemic is growing everyday while federal resources to fight it are not keeping pace".Not keeping pace??? I have already proven that to be outrageous. Talk about ingrates. Perhaps children should be so unfortunate to have only 1 in 4 dollars spent on them. Yes 1 in every 4 dollars goes to them but it isn't keeping pace. They also say this while threatening the cdc/president/us; " If the Gov. doesn't fully fund aids programs there can only be one sure result: The American tax payer will see both the cost of treatment and the death toll rise dramatically." So there you have it. If AIDS cases increase it's because YOU didn't do enough. There is one example Hatch.

Hmmm. That is one example, yes. Although just one. I dunno, seems strange that gay people could have so much power in a country where George W. Bush is president. But it's possible that you're right. I'll have to do some research on that some time.

I'll just quickly disagree with your earlier statement that AIDS is almost fully controllable. In theory yes, since everyone can keep thir fly zipped and stay away from the needle. But in reality it's just about impossible to stop people from doing these things. So it's a bit of a stretch calling it almost fully controllable.

That's it for now, gotta go. Catch you later.

What does Bush have to do with it? He is showing his liberal colors with the Amnesty for illegals, and the huge amount of our money to the NEA. Don't let the (R) next to his (or any one else's for that matter) name fool you. In my opinion there is no longer a republican party. Today's Democrats are like the socialists of Europe of days past, and the Republicans of today are like the Democrats use to be 20 yrs ago.
And in the respect that AIDS is not fully controllable because people just have absolutely no discipline....I must agree with you. It is ,sadly, an unrealistic expectation. Yes.

I "get" it just fine. You don't seem to "get" it. Leave marriage alone. Call the other ANYthing you want. And of coarse one is afforded all the so called "rights" as any heterosexual couple(including taxes ). I have never stated otherwise. I am just saying the we need to leave a semblance of traditional America the way it is.

OOW. I don't see the connection,though. Why does my patriotism come in to play? I have always been a true believer of democracy. Put it to a vote baby and let the people decide. Who could argue with that? Oh Yeah... a whole bunch of people. This is why I believe that liberalism is a mental disease .

Well devildog, you did just what I expected you to do. You read my post and did not comprehend the information.
The study said that 80% of HOMOPHOBIC men, not 80% of men are aroused. But you read it as 80% of all men. Perhaps you should read our posts before you start typing.

And to answer a few other points you keep bring up;
Yes gay groups lobby for AIDS studies and reasearch. Many other people lobby for the same as well, and they are not gay. Women lobby for Breast Cancer research and prevention. Are they going to be attacked for that behavior? I hope not, Breast Cancer is devastating. Thank goodness there are some men lobbying for a cure to this as well, or those women might be considered cancer lobbying extreamists (well probably only in your eyes).

Do you really think that because you are married and faithful that you are immune to HIV/AIDS? Well you are not. What if some freaky junky stabbed you with a dirty needle? What if you were walking and stepped on a dirty needle? Perhaps you are in a car accident and the person next to you had HIV/AIDS but didn't tell you? Now you have their blood all over you. Better get tested. You are no more safe than any of us. There was a woman here in the news quite a few years ago, she was helping a woman who was in an accident. She got blood on her trying to help. Although it's rare, she did turn out to be positive. And both women were heterosexuals.

Animals: You keep saying that gays don't occur in nature. BUNK! Homosexuality in the animal world is more prevelant than in the Human world. Any scientis that studies animal behavior can confirm this. And even though I know you won't read this book, I am posting it.

Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity
Homosexuality in its myriad forms has been scientifically documented in more than 450 species of mammals, birds, reptiles, insects, and other animals worldwide. Biological Exuberance is the first comprehensive account of the subject, bringing together accurate, accessible, and nonsensationalized information. Drawing upon a rich body of zoological research spanning more than two centuries, Bruce Bagemihl shows that animals engage in all types of nonreproductive sexual behavior. Sexual and gender expression in the animal world displays exuberant variety, including same-sex courtship, pair-bonding, sex, and co-parenting—even instances of lifelong homosexual bonding in species that do not have lifelong heterosexual bonding.

And lastly, you did not provide a definition of "normal". Perhaps because there is not a definition of what is normal. As I stated before, it is an impossible thing to define.

Oh, and by the way, I still don't believe that your best friend is gay, he would never tolerate your attitude.

The study said that 80% of HOMOPHOBIC men, not 80% of men are aroused.

Which makes it that much more ridiculous.


Women lobby for Breast Cancer research and prevention. Are they going to be attacked for that behavior?

When did I "attack" ANY one because they lobbied? In fact I said I admired the organization skills of the gay activists. Site one case please. See if you can stay with me. Funding for HIV could sustain breast cancer research for nearly 2 decades at current pace. Yes ,nearly 20 years. Yet it Killed 41,000 in 2000 alone. Compared to 14,270 AIDS related deaths. Now if pointing out this absolutely absurd bias of our tax dollars is "attacking" than I guess I am. I can hardly believe the lack of understanding on this issue. How hard is it to figure out ?

Do you really think that because you are married and faithful that you are immune to HIV/AIDS?

Never said that I was immune. Get someone to translate my posts if they are that difficult to understand.


You keep saying that gays don't occur in nature. BUNK! Homosexuality in the animal world is more prevelant than in the Human world. Any scientis that studies animal behavior can confirm this. And even though I know you won't read this book, I am posting it.

Good lord.Put down the pipe. I never said that either!! Never once mentioned the "animal" world, but since you bring it up;
Do you expect any rational think person to believe that male deer are having anal sex with other male deer? You can replace Deer with any other animal you like also. Cows, horses, pigs, chickens, which one,because I've never seen it. How many male dogs have you seen having anal sex? Or do you need an animal expert to do a field study? How many cats? I've been around awhile and had several animals and I have a lot of friends and family members and they had/have several animals and we've never seen it. Crazy luck considering you say it is more prevalent there than in humans. Or does this study conclude that two male animals "around" each other is a homosexual relationship. How asinine is your assertion?

and by the way, I still don't believe that your best friend is gay

And ,by the way,I told you that I would give you his telephone number if it is that important to you. But rest assured that I don't give a sh!t what you believe.

Other than that...great post

And dude, you don't even know what a Metrosexual is. And you are calling them a freak of nature.

Your ability to "know" what I know is uncanny. You must forward along that technology.

I'm sorry but the prime directive prevents us from sharing our technology.

Just watched "Iron Jawed Angels" last night, it premiered on HBO. Great movie. It reminded me of everything that's going on right now with gay rights. Women fought for equal rights as early as 1868 and were not enfranchised in the United States until 1920. They, like gays in America, held parades, picketed the White House and lobbied for their cause in Congress. It was a long battle but they finally won. It was no different for blacks during the 50's. It's no different for Gays now.
See, back then many men expressed hate at the idea of women being considered as equals...often violently. The same thing happened to blacks. And now again with Gays. It's a cold hard fact that history repeats itself. It's a shame that we have to go through these kinds of hoops to get people to understand that everyone should be considered equal and share the same rights and privilages as anyone else.
Mostly people who are anti-gay, claiming that it's deviant, morally wrong, unnatural, etc. in general operate these assumptions out of fear.
They fear it because they don't understand the behavior, nor do they even want to attempt to TRY to understand it. "The bible says it's wrong so it's WRONG!" "My parents taught me that it's wrong, so it's WRONG!" "I could never understand what would attract a man to a man or a woman to a woman because I've never felt that way, therefore it MUST be WRONG!"
Listen up kids, just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it against nature. Take a look at history and figure out that those who oppose equality for all eventually lose out in the end.

And as for you devil, I'm not going to go round and round with you, arguing against your mindless banter when you are incapable of being honest. "I'm 16, no wait, I'm married, no wait I was in the Marines on recon missions while you were a kid, and I have a brother who's gay, no wait he's my brother-in-law, no wait he's not gay, he's a pedophile, and my best friend is gay but I think he's a freak of nature who should shut up and keep it out of my face, he also shouldn't share the same rights that I have because his behavior is unnatural and deviant - because if people aren't exactly like me they're both wrong and freaks because as I've so clearly pointed out, ONLY I speak the truth."
Devil, I don't have the patience to go back and forth with you. Outsider, Mystic, KJ, Hatchjaw and myself have presented both facts and articles (that you refuse to read BTW) and you simply come back with your same old tired rhetoric. So I have had enough of your immature mindgames and refuse to play with you any longer. If you want to read through the articles and maybe present something logical, we can talk. But until then, have fun and I hope you're not too disappointed when you find out that God is a lesbian.

VERY well said chelktty. History does repeat itself. I remember watching TV in the 70's and they would have these shows where women were struggling to be treated equal. And the same for the black community. And all I could think of as a kid was "that is so wrong to treat another person that way", and I was apalled to see that behavior happen outside of the box.

I grew up in a white/latino/native american community. And the rednecks would always have some lame excuse why the other cultures were "less than" themselves. I learned pretty early in life that the rednecks are not that bright, which logically made me look at the other cultures for intelligence.

I wonder, when Gays & Lesbians finally get equal civil rights, who will they turn on next? Is there anyone left after that to discriminate against?

It is really sad that so many people are taught hate. I never understand why you would do that, but then again I don't understand hate. In my world, if you don't like someone, you don't associate with them. But the people who are so hateful seem to do the opposite, they seek out all of the groups they hate and interact with them all of the time. It's illogical, but then again so is hate.

Now all Georgia needs to do is reinstate slavery and you're all set!!!

I'm very surprised that someone can complain about one person understanding what's in another man's heart, and you claim to know what's in Gods. Now that's technology I'd love to get my hands on.

And remember, there's more arguments against heterosexuality than there are homosexuality in the Bible.

Good thing we don't live in Georgia then!!!

Our beliefs our different than yours... bottom line.
We each believe something different, and that's all there is to it.
We see different ends of the spectrum.... over here, it's a RAINBOW of colors (pardon the pun), and over there, it's black and white.

For me, I'm just glad to see things moving forward. Outsider, you said something that hit a cord in me... who WILL they turn to next? It's a sad state of addairs. Unfortunately, there will never be an end. Someone will ALWAYS say that they are right, and everyone else is wrong. I'm not going to be one pointing fingers... it's just not a fun place to be. I'm tired of seeing hate, every single place you look. Maybe someday, things will change... until then, we will do our part.

The technology for that is clear and simple gaboman.. it's called the Bible, and it's available to anyone who wants to read it. No secrets there.

It doesn't matter if there is only one argument in the Bible about it, or a million passages. How many times does God have to say no? And besides that, does He need to reinforce His meaning more than once for it to be valid?

But then again, I'm speaking to people in a forum that:

1. reject anything in the Bible that speaks against the lifestyle they want to live;
2. do not think the Bible is the written word of God;
3. believe the Bible is from God but think He doesn't care about any of this;
4. reject the Bible because they don't use it as their benchmark for determining right from wrong.

Therefore, I know I am outnumbered on this forum, but I know I am not outnumbered where it really counts.... Judgement Day.

My meaning was God's heart also says he is against heterosexuality. If he doesn't need to push this point more than once for people to understand, than you should also be complaining about marriage in general. God doesn't accept a man and a woman to be together, let alone a man and a man or woman and a woman, but you seem to only have a problem with people who want the later two.

Hypocracy that is.

I am concerned about marriage in general, but the topic of this thread is about homosexuality, so I stayed on topic.

Hypocracy? Tell me what would happen if I commented on something off-topic? Would I not be corrected and told to take it to another thread? Want to talk about marriage in general, then start the thread and I'll tell you in there how I feel about that too. We can discuss all the moral values that America is lacking, in other threads. This one is about homosexuality and my lack of discussing other topics in here is far from hypocracy.. it's called ON TOPIC.

I'll start that thread

I am going to jump back a few posts. Since devildog doesn't seem to know what a metrosexual is, I will explain it.

metrosexual
(met.roh.SEK.shoo.ul) n. An urban male with a strong aesthetic sense who spends a great deal of time and money on his appearance and lifestyle.

Mark Simpson invented this term in 1994, and it drifted slowly from one media source to another throughout the rest of 1990s and early 2000s.

Meet the metrosexual
-excerpt from solon.com article--
July 22, 2002 | David Beckham, the captain of the England soccer team at this year's World Cup in Korea and Japan -- quite possibly the most famous and photogenic soccer player in the world --

A metrosexual is a 100% HETEROsexual male. And since devildog was using this term in his freak of nature diatribe I thought I would ask hime to define it. But as usual anytime the word SEXUAL comes up with conservatives of any kind, we must automatically assume the meaning is bad and immoral. We are allowed to go to war and kill people, we are allowed to show massive violence on TV and movies, and we are allowed to cover all of the atrocities of death on the news but sex in any form is a horrible crime against humanity.

The only difference between Homosexuals and Heterosexuals is the person they are emotionally, mentally, physically, romantically, and sexually attracted to. Otherwise gays and straights do exactly the same things day in and day out.

I just have a hard time believing that there are facts about this topic. It seems that almost every post is filled with opinion. How can there be facts on this issue? The only facts that I am aware of are these1) The judge broke the law by giving out these psuedo marrage licences.(2) Currently it is illegal for this union to take place(3) Polls indicate that Americans do not want this. Where am I wrong. And by the way, Gab, anyone can post that someone has lied or has posted inconsistant statements. It is quite another to back it up.

And I mentioned America over the slavery issue /civil war issue because ,it did happen in America after all.

devildog, remember when they thought the radical judge of Alabama should be thrown out of court? You see, he was doing something in favor of an issue they were against. Off with his head! How dare he break the laws! He's a judge and should be upholding the laws!

However, now we have a radical judge ALSO breaking the laws... but because it's concerning homosexuality and allowing people marry in a manner that violates the laws, well that's ok. This judge is a hero. This judge is allowed to break the laws because people who side with him and his radical ways are in agreement.

I say.... get him out of the courts as he has abused his power in the system. Remove him immediately and hold him responsible for breaking the laws. He's made a circus out of California.

If he is not held accountable for what he's doing, then they darn well better put Judge Moore back in office.

In fact, since everyone was so hard on the Alabama judge, and flooded the courts with their outrage, I'm going to do the same to the judge in San Francisco... I'm writing a letter right now to give my concerns for the outlaw judge in office. I'm going to remind them of what was done to Judge Moore when people thought he was breaking the laws, and ask for the same concequenses for that judge.

Actually I think it's the mayor who is responsible for this right? No difference.. public office. All the same.