Why Israel - countering all the major arguements

Israel & Palestine Forum

There are 3 main reasons that the zionists used to justify the creation of the state of Israel.

1) "They owned it 2000 years ago"

This must be the weakest argument of the 3. If all land was to be returned to their original owners, then let florida be returned to the native americans. Or how about this dilemna:

If a muslim came round to your house and was able to prove accurately that your house used to be his 2000 years ago, and belonged to his great great great great grandfather, would you get out of your house and give it to him?? I know what i'd say - PISS OFF!!

2) "It's in the bible - God promised it to Avraham"

An interesting argument, however does flaw majorly.

a) God promised it to Avraham. Avraham had two sons, Yitzchak and Yishmael. Yishmael founded the muslim religion, surely then that means the muslims are entitled to half of the land?

b) Who is a Jew? Can't anyone just simply convert to Judaism - does this promise now apply to them now? If everyone in the world converted would they all be granted permission into Israel?

c) What if all the Jews in Israel convert to other religions? Does this promise then still apply to them?

d) If all Palestinians do a mass conversion to Judaism, do you think that would put an end to the conflict? Or do you think the Israeli government will be forced to revise its definition of WHO IS A JEW?

e) Does the Israeli Right of Return law apply to the atheist Jews who inherited Judaism from their mothers? If you answer yes, how come the Right of Return law does not apply to Jews who converted to other religions? Are you aware that Jews who convert to other religions would not be able to gain automatic citizenship based on the Israeli Right of Return Law?

f) Historically, ancient Biblical "Eretz Yisrael" included the West Bank, Jordan , southern Lebanon, Golan Heights, and southern Syria. Since the Bible was used as the foundation of the "Jewish State" in 1948, why such justification cannot be used to occupy, ethnically cleanse, and annex areas encompassing ancient Biblical "Eretz Yisrael" too?

g) Finally, let us assume that it is a true fact that God made such a "promise" to Abraham's descendents (regardless if these descendents are Jews, Arabs, or even non-Semitic), then it must be a racist promise since it was based on the genetic make up of Abraham's heir, the question which begs to be asked:

Is it possible that, at one point, God made a racist promise?

3) "The Arabs rejected the 1947 U.N. partition of Palestine, and consequently attacked the Jewish state, and lost the 1948 war"

Now this is the one that most people on this website have used against me the most.

a) Are you aware that Jewish landownership in Palestine was under 7% in 1947? And tthat in 1947 under a third of the entire population was Jewish (despite the Balfour Declaration)

b) Are you aware that the United States of America arm twisted dozens of small nations to get their support to partition Palestine? For example, Greece and France were threatened with a foreign aid cutoff, Liberia was threatened with a rubber embargo plus pressure from the Firestone Company president that he would revoke planned expansion in Liberia, bribing several Latin American countries by hinting at the of possible funding of the construction of a Pan-American highway,.....etc.

c) Are you aware that in 1937 there was an offer to the Zionists called the Peel Commission Plan which allocated the most fertile regions of Palestine to the "Jewish state," which included all the Galilee and a much wider area in the coastal region compared to the areas proposed by the UN in 1947. This plan, unlike the 1947 plan, did not propose the compulsory Palestinian population transfer (ethnic cleansing) out of the proposed areas allocated to the "Jewish State" (in 1947 800,000 palestinians were taken out of their homes).

I call upon your sense of fairness while contemplating the following questions:

1) If the Peel Commission plan was accepted by the Zionists in 1937, how many Jews might have been saved from the Nazi holocaust? In that respect, it is worth quoting Ben-Gurion, who wrote twenty years later:

"Had partition [referring to the Peel Commission partition plan] been carried out, the history of our people would have been different and six million Jews in Europe would not have been killed---most of them would be in Israel."

2) If the Zionist Jews rejected such an offer, which could have "saved" many Jews from the Nazi holocaust, why are the Palestinians often blamed for rejecting a plan which allocated them much less land in 1947?

3) Why is the same excuse accepted by Zionists for rejecting the 1937 Peel Partition plan, but not accepted when used by Arabs for rejecting the 1947 UN GA Partition plan?

Putting this to one side:

d) Are you aware that the 1947 plan granted the "Jewish state" ABOUT 60% of the total area of Palestine? It was not half and half like you may have heard, but 55% - 60%, depending on where you consider the border ends.

e) Assuming that you are English, based on the above facts would you concede sovereignty and ownership of over 60% of your country in favor of a foreign minority, such as Indians and Canadians (just examples - being hypothetical), who owns under 7% of the England's land? If you do not accept such a plan for yourself as an English person, why ask the Palestinian people to concede 60% of their land in favor of an ALIEN foreign minority?

f) Finally, it seems very hypocritical when on one hand many Israeli Zionists use the UN partition plan as a way to legitimize "Israel's" existence, and on the other hand they've rejected almost every other UN resolution since "Israel's" creation, chief among them U.N. resolution 194 which calls for the immediate Right of Return of all ethnically cleansed Palestinians to their homes, farms, plantations, businesses, banks, boats, buses, ... etc. To suit "Israel's" political agenda, Israeli Zionists have deliberately chosen to ignore most, if not all, UN resolutions, of course with the exception of withdrawing from occupied southern Lebanon in May 2000. Sadly, Israel has accepted the UN resolution to withdraw its occupation forces out of southern Lebanon not because it was influenced by the UN, U.S., or even European diplomatic pressure, but because it was compelled to do so by the heroic Lebanese resistance.



So what do you think? I would very much like to hear opinions on my collections of counter-arguments!

I dont think i've ever seen a more one-sided argument in my life.

Why dont you post where you stole it from, Antizionist?

www.palestineremembered.com

Here's to countering all the major myths:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html


Have fun!

It wasnt all posted from that site, but some of it was. Only the bit about the UN from the site, the rest was mine. So i'm waiting for your counter attack? Or have you none?

Sorry antizionist, the day you start putting up coherent logical responses to my posts, is the day ill start responding to your copy/pasted unreferenced material. But in the meanwhile, ive got more important things to do.

So basically, you dont have any arguments to counter mine. Gooday.

So basically, you didn't bother reading my post - and now, this has turned into a **** slinging competition.

You're whole article is simply trying to justify Israel's destruction. Sorry, I don't bother arguing with that logic. It was legally created through the UN, deal with it.

I am not talking about the destruction, i'm simply challenging the very existence of Israel, and the question "was it really justified?" And quite the irony when you say the UN matters, because Israel are in violation of 69 UN laws!

Does that suprise you, since now the UN is comprised of 22 Arab countries, and is even led by a Muslim?

Good point Merk.

Yes, but only 5 countries can veto it, and none of these are muslim or Arab. However, one of these countries is the closest ally of Israel's, and also happens to be the most powerful country in the world.

Can I ask a question Merkava..you say you are an atheist..were you born a Jew or a Christian, and are you American?

Its a good thing that you back up your statements with proof, and that is rare, but the type of proof that you bring to us , it annoys you very much, when you read and read and find how much and how bad a person can give false statements to favor one side, it annoys you, im telling you man, i've been through a lot, i read numorous links, sometimes i even questioned my beliefs, its hard, too many false things floating around. If you could only be in my shoes for one day you would find out what does it feel like to be a Palestinian and be useless while your country is being crushed.

I do not hate, or blame a large portion of the Palestinian people. I do realize that many, if not most of them, just want their own flourishing state.

The only problem is Hamas , Islamic Jihad, and the minority who support them. Just as the Roadmap to peace stated, before a Palestinian state can be created, Hamas must be disarmed.

Good to see that we can come to a agreement, its true, the minority want Israel wipped out, and after 50 years of ownership, it would not be fair to take the land away from the Israelis, but after 50 years of suffering , it would be good hearted and fair to give the Palestinians a portion of the land and bring back those who live in garbage refugee camps in other arab states and give them freedom.

WELL SAID.

Merkava really does talk **** sometimes.

What terrorism are they supporting? The 9/11 attacks? Ofcorse their gonna celebrate that, their aware of the money that comes from the U.S and the tanks,guns, and bombs that kill them, so why are they going to support the U.S, supporting the U.S is like supporting Israel , to them.

Not the 9/11 attacks - Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc etc.

Although supporting the murder of Innocent american civilians isnt going to do them much good either.

Ofcorse their gonna suport them, who do u think their gonna support? Israel? ROLF

How about they stop supporting the slaughter of innocent civilians, and start supporting themselves?

Slaughter? Slaughter???????? Wtf is wrong wit you? There is no slaughter by the Palestinians, theres killing but no slaughter, again, your mixing it up. Israel stops suicide bombers, a suicide bombing does not happen almost every day of the week, but a palestinians do die every week.

Right.

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/terrorism4.10.jpg

There

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/meron-bus-bomb.jpg

are

http://metafella.topcities.com/bush/bp27/bus.jpg

no

http://stream.paranode.com/imc/hamilton/bus_bomb.jpg

slaughters

http://www.ananova.com/images/web/66729.jpg

at all.

http://www.ananova.com/images/web/66730.jpg

They're just unarmed rock throwers

http://www.jafi.org.il/agenda/44b.jpg

Who take VERY good care of their children

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pal-child-abuse/death-cult-01.jpg

They're obviously very peaceful people

http://loyolan.lmu.edu/Archives/10-9-02/National%20News/images/CORRECTION-MIDEAST-PAL.jpg

So let's just give into their demands, and give them that Palestinian state they want so badly.

http://www.factsofisrael.com/en/images/articles/palestine-all.gif

Hi,

Please discuss Israel on my forum @ http://www.bigtt.com

You consider suicide bombings slaughtering? i can only laugh at that, yes its killing innocent israelis, yes it awful and its really unneeded, but to Palestinians and all well hearted people we see it as a way to express the way that the Palestinians feel about the Israelis taking their own land and slaughtering them, and as for the photos of the armed Palestinians, i can only see pride and one of the most beautiful things, u see a powerful connection between Palestinians, their ready to fight off the Israeli troops who decide to go in their town, and as for the kids being prepared and given a gun , its a way to show Israel and the World , that all Palestinian kids are ready to fight for their Human Rights and Their home.

TWBR surely you can't be subscribing to the idea that when suicide bombers kill innocent people it's not a slaughter, but when Israel kill innocent people it is?

Slaughter means killing. So one persons pain is another's joy (revenge)? Israel feels grief just like Palestinians. Israelis feel the lost of their sons and daughters, husbands and wives just like Palestinians.

Both of them are slaughtering each other and the cycle of violence has to stop. Problem is I don't believe many of these extremist terrorist orgs do not want peace. They have made statements in the past that they are dedicated to the destruction of Israel and their actions are speaking loudly as a testiment to this.

Problem is I don't believe many of these extremist terrorist orgs do not want peace.

This includes Israel too! Stop demolishing houses. Stop on the destruction of tress...

They have made statements in the past that they are dedicated to the destruction of Israel and their actions are speaking loudly as a testiment to this. [/B][/QUOTE]


And you think the Zionist govt is interested in the creation of Palestinian state? Pls gimme a break.

I think the dogs in USA are treated much better than the Palestinians!

Yes both are slaugthering each other, but if Zionists never came to be then maybe this world would be better, im sure that the Zionists have a lot to do with Osama making Al'Qaeda. Lets wait and see, i hope God finally ends this, since no human being can end this with Israel and The Palestinian Groups.

Before zionism and 1948, there was no such thing as islamic extremism.

CONCLUSIONS....

Im gonna have to disagree wit u there, im sure that even witout Zionists there will be some Islamic Extremists, ofcorse there will be less, i wondered how the world was before the Holocaust , 6 million jews living peacefully, Palestinians living in calm and peace in their land, until Nazis and Zionists and Islamic Extremists came and ****ed up it, it pisses me off so much.

What an idiot! TWBR you have contradicted yourself! First you say that even without zionists there would be islamic extremism (although the only type of extremism then was jewish) and at the end you say that thw world was peaceful until zionism comes on to the scene!

Ohhhh, when i said that, i wasnt including the Islamic Extremists. For some reason it didnt come to my head. Im gonna fix it now.

Wtf?? So are you agreeing or disagreeing? Do you think Islamic extremism would still be here if it wasnt for zionism? Because its funny that it has suddenly developed NOW after 1500 years?!

i really dont know, there wouldnt be some Islamic Extremists if Zionists didnt come up, but even if they didnt come around, there would still be Islamic Extremists. And i hope that you all know that the Palestinians arent Islamic Extrimists.

Absolutely there would be antizion. There are so many Islamic extremist groups and all of their goals isn't only about Israel.

I find it funny how you blame all woes in the Middle East on Israel antizion. At least in my opinion TWBR is more objective than you, but your name says it all really. You project so much venom at times. Why call TWBR an idiot? I don't think he's that at all. I think he's opinionated but he does show opened mindness. Without an open mind many will never accept wrong for being just that, wrong.

As for Osama Bin Laden, his influence came from a man name Sheik Abdullah Azzam, when he was studying economics at King Abdul Aziz University in Jiddah.

He began by fighting the Soviets when they invaded Afghanistan in 1979. That's how he got his start. Israel was just another cause for his fight to free all Muslims in their lands.

So why is it that Islamic extremism to this scale only started post - the creation of israel????

It is the fault of ISRAEL. And I say that as a proud Jew.

You are blinded by something antizion. First off, they organized and gave themselves a name post Israel. Conflict like what's going on now was done prior to Israel becoming a state.

The idea had to start somewhere. Don't blame Israel for Palestinian foolishness, they are at fault alone. There are several extremists in that region that aren't even bothered with Israel at the moment.

But despite this, you cannot deny the fact that there were no muslim extremists blowing themselves up prior-1948!

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/hebron29.html

History > You.

What's the excuse this time, that they didn't use explosives?

Always the same website, www.us-israel.org - I'm not even going to bother reading your "proofs" coming from that zionist-controlled website.

lmao, yeah the perfect site, its very neutral! give me a break, like i said, from know on im going to take you as a joke, your crap shouldnt be read.

I mean what "neutral" website is called www.us-israel.org? part of its name is actually israel itself, the other part is its greatest supporter.

You guys are truly pathetic.

The website gives direct proof of Arabs massacring Jews in the 1920's. Jews that legally bought land from Arabs.

Yet you don't even bother reading it because the web link has "Israel" in it.

You two are perfect examples of being blinded by hate.

Just because we are anti-Israel that means we are blinded by hate??

I don't think I've ever heard something more ridiculous in my life.

You are Anti-Israel to every possible degree.

You let your hate of Israel blind you from believeing facts - you deny that the Hebron Massacre of 1929 even took place, simply because a website with "israel" in the title said it did.

1) I'm not anti-israel to every possible degree, I am against suicide bombing and Yasser Arafat, I just don't like the way Palestinians are treated and how they got chucked out of the land in the first place.

2) I have never denied the "Hebron Massacre" of 1929 took place, for ****'s sake I haven't even heard of it untill you mentioned it now, so how could I have denied it?

Well?? Didn't think so.

So you didn't know about it.

Now you do.

Lol trust you to bring that up

- that's what diffrenciates you and oneofpeace, you can actually debate.