race origins

Lord of the Rings Trilogy Forum

time to discuss why races are what they are, where they came from, who made them, yadda, yadda.

orcs actually aren't mutated elves. tolkien said that in a note on the Silmarillion, but since he didn't make an alternate creation for them, they remained as probably being twisted elves.
and treebeard was wrong, trolls arent' ents. in a letter to the publisher tolkien says that treebeard is not him, the author. though tolkien never does mention how the trolls came about.

Great thread Shadow. We do know that Melkor made the Orcs. Keep going Shadow, you are our resident expert.

as for trolls, well the trolls in the Hobbit can be ignored...first off...trolls don't tend to idly talk about how they're going to eat you. secondly, they wouldn't have names like william or tom. the trolls in LOTR are known as Olog hia (essentially advanced versions of normal trolls), and were made by Sauron. they were as cunning as orcs, malicious, and big and stong. no one knows how sauron made them. it can be assumed that Melkor made the first trolls, though not by perverting Ents.

where did hobbits come from, or are they just a race of midgets who migrated to the shire instead of staying with there tall friends.

What about Dwarves? Do they actually spring from the ground or am I just really gullible!?

I think Aule made the dwarves and no one knows where hobbits came from....it doesnt say anywhere, does it??

Dwarves. They were made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-earth. Elves and men were not yet in the world, and Aule desired to created learners that he could teach his craft. Because Melkor was so powerful, Aule made the dwarves strong and unyielding. They were made in secret. At first he made only seven. They were called the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves.


Pip was right.

Now, seven fathers, I may not be a master biologist, but, surely seven FATHERS, how does that work?

True...then again this is MIDDLE EARTH we are talking about!!!!

Shadow what do you mean by "we can ignore the trolls in the hobbit"? Why weren't those trolls characteristic to other trolls in Tolkien's books?

Well, they were very....um......human-like.....i suppose...

The trolls in LOTR wouldn't call each other human names, or cook their food, and I don't think their conversation skills were up to much...

I agree with Sandy. The trolls in the Hobbit were to verbal and smart for trolls.

But what about *hobbits*?? I just don't get their origin. Who created them?? There's a description on how every single race important in the LotR was created, by whom, and when, and everything. About hobbits there's only a hint about their language being similar to that of Rohan people. And hobbits and Rohirrim coming from places close to each other, on the north. So what's it all about? Surely Frodo isn't some great-great-great-grandson of Eorl??

"A mortal race almost certainly related to Men, though their origins are unknown. Their most distinguishing feature was their short stature; even the tallest Hobbits rarely exceeded four feet in height."

From the encyclopedia of Arda. So we will not ever know the answer.

Oh man... so that's all there is on hobbits? Noooo... now I'll be troubled with it for a good few hours before I get to sleep. *sigh*

Sorry Maja. I too was disappointed.

I have read a bit of the enyclopedia of Arda too, and I think the reason why the hobbits have no known origin was because they were the first conceived idea of Middle Earth by Tolkein, and therefore he had nothing to base the word upon. Most of his characters and places came from established languages, fictional or otherwise, and so they had a 'real' history in Tolkien's imagination.

He evolved the name from the Old English words 'hol byldan', 'to build a hole'. This gives very little idea of teh background of hobbits, so their origin is left unknown

......Annoying, isn't it

hmm...well they actually aren't. in a letter to his publisher, Tolkein stated that Treebeard was actually wrong. no one knows who made trolls, since tolkien never elaborated.

Oh, I got that off the Arda.

yeah, the reason that they weren't made is found in LOTR where frodo comments that Evil can make nothing, only corrupt and pervert. that was one of Tolkiens ideas, that evil could never actually make anything on its own.

A very good idea!

But,,,,,,,Sauron made the ring.

but the ring wasnt really evil to start off with...only when he poured his cruelty, malice and will to dominate all life into it!
well...i dunno...SHADOW!

Maja88 said this in post #15

Woah! I never looked that deep into it! Thanks Tiger!

No problem.

I can't imagine how you know all this! Its amazing!

Two reasons Pip:

1. I am a Fanatic
2. I have alot of free time on my hand.

Fair enough! I am both of those things, but have no idea about any of that stuff! Hobbits are my limit!

I suspect that Hobbits are a descendants of humans, but I guess we'll never really know.

Rachel, I've been telling you to expand your world. There's more to life than the Shire.

I learn more about Dwarves Pip, but I like to know as much as I can about the world of Tolkien, that inclueds Elves, Hobbits, Men, Dragons, Balrogs, etc

I know, and i am trying, i learnt alot from just looking at the geography thread in the Tolkien forum. And wow, Heather, that is the first time anyone has called me by my first name on here!

Okay, back on topic.

Nope, it doesnt bother me, its just wierd seeing it on screen!!!

And i am....getting to know the elves quite a bit now too!

Tolkien never told us how the hobbits came to be. Some people, including me, think that they are direct descendants of men, possibly crossed with elves (most likely, Teleri) and dwarves at one time. They are most closely related to men and use man's language and customs, but they have short stature like the dwarves, and a nature loving, peaceful and an almost magical quality to them like the elves. Not to mention there are 3 different breeds of hobbits, so they could all have a different origin. And it is mentioned in the first chapter of The Hobbit that one of the Took ancestors took a fairy wife. So what is a fairy? I guess it's all open to interpretation.

That was really strange, i just read that bit in the hobbit!

To quote tolkien:

It is interesting because the Brandybucks and Bagginses, as well as most of the hobbits in Hobbiton are related to the Tooks. So do they all have fairy blood in them? I would really like to know what Tolkien defines a fairy as. I guess I'll have to research that.

Uh huh! Me too! Tolkien fairies!

Well Tolkien, in a letter written to the publishers, said that he specifically designed some of his creatures in his stories to have no origin, such as Tom Bombadil. I myself believe that he would have eventually told us everything in his finnished version of the Silmarillion but he never finished it.

Okay, I researched a little bit, and here is what I found:

The 'fairy wife' may have been a Silvan Elf. Their origins are in the Vale of Anduin, close to where the hobbits were thought to be from.

Heather said this

Hmmm, interesting.

I put up my idea of how the hobbits were created the Middle-Earth in post#27

Where exactly did you find this information, Tiger. I would like to read more.

Perhaps, you are Christopher Tolkien himself!

The strange thing is I don't remember where this information comes from but I know that it is true to Tolkiens work because I have read through a few books and through the Encylopidia of Arda. But other than that it is my hypothsis

Hey tiger, Morgoth did create dragon's so i suppose Tolkien didn't always keep to that idea. But Morgoth didn't create or do anything to the Balrogs or Sauron. The just went with him in his fall from power. *just goes to show how smart they were*

Sorry again for that post, my fingers going too fast for my brain. I meant to say that Morgoth created only the dragons but ended up saying that he created the Balorg and Sauron, which I knew he didn't.

hey no problem tiger, it happens to the best of us.

Lake-men and men of Dale are all decended from the northmen of the Eotheod that didn't come down to Gondor with Eorl the young. So they are related to the Beornings of the Carrock, the Rohirrim and the hobbits.

Did you know that when the elves were first awakened they were Gnomes?

It is written in the book of Lost Tales volume one that Gnomes or Noldoli later became the Noldor. They lived in the cottage of lost play before moving to Valinor. The first lord of their race was Inwe.

I'm glad they dropped the term Gnomes though. It brings to mind little dwarven like creatures that sit around in you lawn.

Wow, thats an interesting fact...I'm glad they lost that name too, I don't think it would have worked out too well

Gnomes!!

Yea, isnt that something?

Do you know that that Ingwe, first lord of the Gnomes, went onto be Hibgh king of all elves living beneath the mountains of the Valar?

My grandmother has a gnome in her garden. Not exactly the beautiful beings that elves are.