| Posted by: mystic | |
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Sean Kelly said this in post #21 :
Landing a grant is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to racism/sexism in the business/professional world. Your one friend's minor victory (in the grand scheme of things) speaks little to me about the general state of affairs. Good for your friend though, indeed. |
Well actually if you want to talk racism...its almost against men at this point.....not white woman....its men of all colors....most places are now looking to hire women, black, white, green, whatever....
at least thats the way its been going here....and my brothers and I had an interesting conversation over the holidays, and maybe you can tell me what you think of it...being a man and all...
They actually brought up the fact that sooner (rather than later) that women will eventually be the "bread winner" in the family...because of the way people are wanting women in the business world now.....
What do you think?
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| Posted by: Sean Kelly | |
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mystic said this in post #22 :
They actually brought up the fact that sooner (rather than later) that women will eventually be the "bread winner" in the family...because of the way people are wanting women in the business world now.....
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Funny, actually my wife and I were just talking on this topic over the holidays too. She made a point, as she has many times in the past, that I've always made three times as much as her and probably always will. For once the comment actually struck a nerve and it occurred to me that this should not necessarily be the case. In fact I found myself surprised to think that I had in fact done NOTHING particularly spectacular in order to assure myself such positioning. Ultimately the thought had never really occurred to me that she could make more money than I but in the end, I'd be kind of glad if she did. For once the responsibilities would not lie so heavily upon myself.
But without putting any significant amount of effort into getting into the position I've gotten myself into, how has all of this come about? Well, if we compare the career/educational paths of my wife and I perhaps we can apply this knowledge to the question of who will be the bread-winner.
My story so far (the relevant portions, anyway):
* Graduate high school, study computer science - bad GPA
* 1 year of college, General Ed. - O.K. GPA
* Knock up girlfriend
* drop out of college to enter workforce
* take first job selling computers
* struggle to make ends meet - what can I do to earn more $?
* learn everything I possibly can about computers
* 25 cent raise at new job repairing computers over the counter
*$1.00 raise at new job supplying telephone technical support
* struggle to make ends meet - continue my computer sciences studies at home in the evenings
* $3.00 raise on a break into junior engineering position at same company having demonstrated capabilities derived form after-hours studying
* learn everything I possibly can about programming in that field
* $13.00 raise at a new job across town doing much more sophisticated work
* $9.00 raise at another new job working on websites and databases based on my continued studies, having purchased many books on related topics
* $11.00 raise at yet another new job as a database and web technology expert
My wife's story (what I know of it, and certainly not to degrade her):
* graduate highschool, focus on music (high GPA)
* enter university for art degree, sailing team
* transfer to new univ. due to "distractions"
* transfer to a private art school focus on graphic design
* some minor side-jobs working in this field, hands-on training
* debilitating car accident necessitating several months away from school for recovery
* private school cancels all her credits for that time, announces that it is no longer considered to be "accredited", pissing her off into wanting to leave, but negating the possibility of transferring credit to another school
* drops out of school and enters the work force in a entry-level design position for a local government agency
* $10 in raises over the next few years working the same job
* takes on continued education classes to augment design expertise and finished degree in marketing
* loses job due to shift of government funds in Sacramento with new governor's arrival and overall shitty economy
* scores a couple small contracts for free-lance work and decides to free-lance the rest of her way through school
* will not make more money until her experience level rises to the 10 year range
SO. What do you see in the above story? What I see are two things: FIRST is that I chose a suitable industry for making great money and applied my personal time and dollars to research and self-improvement as I continued to work whereas she chose an industry that was appealing to her, but which really doesn't hold much potential for good money in the future unless she owns and operates her own business. I am just a workforce employee (at this time) and my time is still worth three times as much as hers even though her job is equally demanding in terms of workload, specific knowledge and problem-solving skills. And SECOND is that I was VERY aggressive in my pursuit of the next thing that was going to advance my station and worth where she took one job and was comfortable sitting in that position and waiting for good things to come her way. I think it is clear that my agressiveness and selection of profession has directly resulted in me making more money than she.
How does this apply to the rest of the world? I have no idea, but I think that were our roles reversed, she would indeed be making more money than me today. In the end, that wouldn't bother me one bit because I would love to sit at home and work on my own home business which she worked towards paying rent and such things each month - it'd be a much-needed rest from the rat race. And that's exactly what it is. Eat or be eaten. The world of business is no sanctuary for the meek which I tend to think that many women qualify as. Including my wife.
Not trying to put anyone in a box or say that anyone is any more or less capable based on gender or what-have-you, only making observations of what I specifically know of my own life.
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| Posted by: mystic | | well...indeed you did pick a better profession (at the time). And what was the market like when your wife was looking for work?Better yet, how long ago was that?
Today it seems almost the opposite...I was specifically told that when I finally finish my schooling, in the field I chose to concentrate on, and if I go against someone else with the same skills and experience, (the someone else being a man) that I would have the advantage because I am a women....and people are looking to hire women now.....and I basically said I didnt really want to use that as leverage...I feel being hired because of my gender would be really a slap in the face because I have more to offer than gender...and he said to take advantage of it...because thats the way society is evolving.
So...I took it upon myself to look around, wondering if that was actually the case, and its amazing how factually true that statement was...at least I know that in this state.
BUT...I actually ran into a few things today...for example...from El Paso Texas, that had job opportunities listed...the ad read: Wanted woman police officers. Why women? Why not "good" police officers? I can go online and find scholarships for woman only.....grants for women only, etc.
But thats really the point...there are more things being offered to women...to get them better educated, in business, anything to get them equal if not at a higher position than a man....
It must be more than here though...because two of my brothers, one in Oregon, and the other in Los Angeles, state the same thing...however, they have very nice cushy high paying jobs....but they are in their 40's...and have had them for awhile...giving them both the chance to make names for themselves in their chosen field...but I wonder...would it have been the same today if they were out there looking for work? I dont think so....
I think its gonna be coming to the time that women are going to looked upon as more viable in the workforce....if that happens, its certainly will be an "interesting" society......Im not sure that it will a healthy one though. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: gaboman | |
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| Wanted woman police officers. Why women? Why not "good" police officers? |
Perhaps they just had a lack of women police officers there. Women being police officers is important, especially for rape victims or female victims of anything. Also helpful to calm certain hot-headed male officers down (or vice versa, who knows?) This is just a theory though; maybe the chief is just unmarried.
Also, this isn't something that happens in any other country but America, but you guys apparently have something called "Football scholarships" why the hell someone is worthy of studying because they can play football is beyond me, but my guess is that females aren't able to get these... so perhaps scholarships for females are important to balance this out.
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| Posted by: mystic | |
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gaboman said this in post #4 :
Perhaps they just had a lack of women police officers there. Women being police officers is important, especially for rape victims or female victims of anything. Also helpful to calm certain hot-headed male officers down (or vice versa, who knows?) This is just a theory though; maybe the chief is just unmarried.
Also, this isn't something that happens in any other country but America, but you guys apparently have something called "Football scholarships" why the hell someone is worthy of studying because they can play football is beyond me, but my guess is that females aren't able to get these... so perhaps scholarships for females is important. |
I see your point! However...there are many scholarships for women (athletic)...my friends daughter just got a scholarship for Ice Hockey....so athlectic scholarships are there for woman....just not football.
And the Police Officer ad...that was one of many I saw...different states....the police department want more women on the force...at least I know thats the case in this state....and there are plenty of women officers in the departments I know....yet, they are still looking...they even want more woman in the offices, the lab, etc....
I dont disagree that woman should get this stuff..not by any means....Im just not sure that IF my original hypothetical question comes true...if it will be the makings of an unhealthy society.
That was really my point....besides the possible discrimination of men...
I dont even know how this became a thread of its own...I posted that first question in a total other thread... 
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| Posted by: mystic | | Breaking New Ground
More American Women Entering Nontraditional Fields of Work
By Carole Simpson
Dec. 29 — Arlene Berger is a registered nurse, but she gave up caring for the sick 10 years ago when she decided to follow her dream to "build things."
"I guess when all the boys were building with their little Tonka toys and everything else and girls couldn't play with them, it was just something I always wanted to do," she said. "I loved putting things together."
Berger, 52, is now the proud owner of "Heavenly Hammers," a home remodeling and repair company in Waterford, Conn. She does everything — carpentry, nailing heavy sheetrock, plastering, painting, putting in plumbing, and electrical wiring.
"At the end of the day, to see your accomplishments and know that you made somebody's life a little easier is worth the hard work," she said.
Berger is an example of a new trend in the U.S. labor force, women conquering fields that had once been denied them. Until as late as the last decade many well-paying, high-status jobs that were widely considered "for men only."
But a five-year study by the Center for Women's Business Research has discovered that the fastest-growing segment of female entrepreneurship is in nontraditional fields for women — construction, manufacturing, transportation and communication. While women owning retail stores, beauty salons, and consulting services increased 37 percent, women owning construction and trucking companies went up 50 percent.
"You can find a woman to do your environmental cleanup," said Sharon Hadary, director of the Research Center. "You can find a woman to engineer, design and build your shopping center. You can find a woman to transport your goods around the world."
Mechanically Inclined, Gender Regardless
What brought about the change? Hadary says it was the recognition that women could be leaders combined with a new attitude by banks. They began issuing bigger lines of credit to women who wanted to start cash-intensive businesses. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: mystic | | Look Who's Bringing Home More Bacon
The American family has something new going for it: The femmes who finance. One in three wives now outearns her husband
A mere month into his relationship with Betsy Morgan, Chad Gifford found himself sitting nervously in her parents' dining room in Suffield, Conn., where the clan had gathered for Easter lunch. "So tell me, Chad," Betsy's banker father began, lowering the boom before the roast was served. "How much does an archaeologist earn?"
Gee, Mr. Morgan, not much. Today, 10 years later, Betsy, 34, and Chad, 36, are a happily married Manhattan couple. Betsy is a CBS executive who makes fat cash. Chad is an archaeologist who jaunts all over the world for digs that barely pay. She buys Prada shoes. He still owns clothes from high school. She burns water. He learned how to wash lettuce from a family friend -- Julia Child. "We joke that I should make Chad a nonprofit," says Betsy.
The American family has something new going for it: the femmes who finance. After only three decades as members of the mainstream workforce, one in three wives now outearns her husband, up from one in five in 1980. Women with MBAs are doing even better: Nearly 60% have direct deposits bigger than their grooms'.
POWER-SHARING. Look for the ranks of the Ms. Breadwinners to rise even more, with 20% more women than men graduating from college and more women swelling the managerial ranks every year. Francine M. Deutsch, a psychology professor who studies gender roles and parenting at Mount Holyoke College in South Hadley, Mass., believes the trend will help erode the mommy tax -- the heavy penalties women pay for having children -- and help ease female poverty in old age.
The shift puts a twist on the term "purse strings." Researchers say the phenomenon is helping restructure marriage by creating mergers of complementary strengths, in which power is shared and spouses act as flexible allies who easily switch back and forth between roles. In essence, the family now has co-CEOs. "I expected to find these women lording it over their husbands," says Barbara Stanny, author of Secrets of Six-Figure Women. Stanny studied 150 women earning $100,000 or more. Nearly 70% earned more than their partners. But even though they raked in more cash--and often managed the family finances--Stanny found that most wanted interdependent relationships. "They all talked about how crucial their husbands were to success," says Stanny.
How well a couple fares depends on how successfully they share childrearing and what their pact was upon marriage. Resentment can flare if the breadwinner role was unexpectedly foisted on the wife by a layoff or sudden failure, says Breadwinner Wives and the Men They Marry author Randi Minetor.
FROM AUDI TO SATURN. One PR executive financed her husband's new restaurant and ended up pleading her case in bankruptcy court with $960,000 of debt attached to her name. She lost the 2,200-square-foot house with the pool and her Audi A6. "I thought supporting his dream would get me to my dream -- to be a stay-at-home mom," she says. Instead, she wound up a Saturn-driving single parent living in a condo with no credit.
Some husbands balk, threatened by their wives' new power. One recent Penn State University study found that men tend to become gloomier and more prone to headaches when their wives begin earning more.
Still, the positives can be considerable if men have strong self-images, feel no need to compete with their wives, and don't have in-laws shaming them for their role. Men with breadwinner wives are often relieved to share the onus, especially given the enormous resources required to raise a family in an era of slippery job security. The role swap allows men to spend more time with their children and pursue passions that a megacareer would prohibit.
Indeed, the more economic power the wife has, the more men help out at home. Minetor found that 51% of men with breadwinner wives are the major housekeepers. Finally, more career women are getting the one thing they say they need most: a wife. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: gaboman | |
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| I see your point! However...there are many scholarships for women (athletic)...my friends daughter just got a scholarship for Ice Hockey....so athlectic scholarships are there for woman....just not football. |
I watch too many jock-teen movies.
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| And the Police Officer ad...that was one of many I saw...different states....the police department want more women on the force...at least I know thats the case in this state....and there are plenty of women officers in the departments I know....yet, they are still looking...they even want more woman in the offices, the lab, etc.... |
Okay, then I'll fall back on what I wanted to say originally (before changing my mind and deciding to post somewhat serious comments) - two words: human shields.
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| I dont disagree that woman should get this stuff..not by any means....Im just not sure that IF my original hypothetical question comes true...if it will be the makings of an unhealthy society. |
I gave up on society too long ago. It can come apologize to me when it's ready to come out of its bedroom.
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| That was really my point....besides the possible discrimination of men... |
I've personally been discriminated against for most things that I am: being male, being white, being young, being not as young, having blue clothes, having well-off parents, having 50 dollars in my wallet, having an empty wallet, not having ID with me, having ID with me but not enough ID, being non-american, being literate, getting good grades, then getting bad grades, then getting good grades again, because of writing for a newspaper, because I can't speak Chinese then because I can speak Chinese...
Can't win...
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| Posted by: Sean Kelly | |
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mystic said this in post #5 :
I dont even know how this became a thread of its own...I posted that first question in a total other thread. |
I split this off into a separate thread because the question you started out with was a good, but entirely separate thread of discussion from the original racism topic albeit somewhat related by nature.
I am inclined to think that the opportunities you are seeing promoting advancement of women are more representative of two things:
1) Checks & balances, just evening things out. (In a male-dominated police force, the department wants more women, period. And I certainly wouldn't use the police to gauge levels of success - it's not exactly the top of the career ladder. Maybe we can talk attourneys or corporate executives instead?)
2) Placebo effect. It's possible that your sensitivity / receptiveness to clues is heightened because it's something you're looking for now. Sometimes I swear that the number 777 is significant and has some other-wordly meaning when I start seeing it repeat all over the place in the course of a week or two - but that's just my lame-brain keying in on something that is entirely insignificant. Thus where you point out the three or four, or TWENTY clues that you key in on to support your case, the fact remains that there are easily the same or more clues that point in the opposite and/or neutral directions.
Finally, I tend to think the idea that the business world is secretly conspiring to revolutionize the face of business is proposterous. What you're suggesting means one of two things, either:
A) Businesses are quietly agreeing amongst themselves that indeed more women are needed and they're going to do whatever is in their power to enact a role-reversal for men & women in business.
or
B) The media is doing such a great job of implanting subliminal hints that businesses should hire and promote more women. This, of course, assumes the media is secretly conspiring as well.
I don't think either case is likely. Media properties don't tend to share/exchange information or cooperate with one another in any way given that their intellectual property is their meal ticket. And competing businesses typically don't give a rat's batutti about one another on any level.
So what opportunity would there be to possibly explain some globalized effect that could sweep across the nation and change the world as we know it? Coincidence? Copy-cat syndrome?
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| Posted by: mystic | |
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Sean Kelly said this in post #10 :
I split this off into a separate thread because the question you started out with was a good, but entirely separate thread of discussion from the original racism topic albeit somewhat related by nature.
I am inclined to think that the opportunities you are seeing promoting advancement of women are more representative of two things:
1) Checks & balances, just evening things out. (In a male-dominated police force, the department wants more women, period. And I certainly wouldn't use the police to gauge levels of success - it's not exactly the top of the career ladder. Maybe we can talk attorneys or corporate executives instead?)
Well okay...but I posted an article about women being the new "bread winners" 2 out of 3 women, it says are now making moer than their husband.
2) Placebo effect. It's possible that your sensitivity / receptiveness to clues is heightened because it's something you're looking for now. Sometimes I swear that the number 777 is significant and has some other-wordly meaning when I start seeing it repeat all over the place in the course of a week or two - but that's just my lame-brain keying in on something that is entirely insignificant. Thus where you point out the three or four, or TWENTY clues that you key in on to support your case, the fact remains that there are easily the same or more clues that point in the opposite and/or neutral directions.
I can understand that completely...I know that happens....but how come then Im not the only person that sees it that way in this case, as it has shown that women are now the new "bread winners"....or do you suppose this is just an article that has false statistics? Im not a big believer in stats so I guess I wonder how true that is.
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| Posted by: Sean Kelly | |
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mystic said this in post #7 :
Finally, more career women are getting the one thing they say they need most: a wife. |
Gawd I despise this kind of "cuteness" - they treat the term "wife" as if it's demeaning, and further apply it to their husbands. Real cute. 
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| Posted by: Sean Kelly | | Regarding your response above, in fact it said ONE in three, not TWO in three, a 33% error.. 
Yeah, I see the stories there, but I have a hard time believing that, and my bet is that their data is skewed as a result of small sampling. If it were truely 1 in 3... wouldn't you think that statistically you'd run into one of those 1 in 3 now and again? I have yet to meet one. I'd be surprised if it was accurate in actuality.
The most interesting bit I saw in the articles you posted was that of banks tending to lend more to woman-owned businesses, and I wonder how wide-spread that phenomenon is as well.. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: mystic | |
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Sean Kelly said this in post #13 :
Regarding your response above, in fact it said ONE in three, not TWO in three, a 33% error.. 
Oh...My bad mistake! *slaps hand*
Yeah, I see the stories there, but I have a hard time believing that, and my bet is that their data is skewed as a result of small sampling. If it were truely 1 in 3... wouldn't you think that statistically you'd run into one of those 1 in 3 now and again? I have yet to meet one. I'd be surprised if it was accurate in actuality.
my neighbor is one of those women...she makes more money than her husband does...they couldnt live in that house if it wasnt for her salary....
But you may be right about those stats...it could be the result of sample bias...
The most interesting bit I saw in the articles you posted was that of banks tending to lend more to woman-owned businesses, and I wonder how wide-spread that phenomenon is as well..
I dont know....but I have heard that before...that women are getting more credit lines because of how well women owned businesses have been faring....but Ill have to look into that....and see if thats factually true.
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Culture & Society Forum: Women Bread Winners?
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