Sept 11th - were israel involved??

Israel & Palestine Forum

THE LAVON AFFAIR
IS HISTORY REPEATING ITSELF?
In 1954, Israeli agents working in Egypt planted bombs in several buildings, including a United States diplomatic facility, and left evidence behind implicating Arabs as the culprits. The ruse would have worked, had not one of the bombs detonated prematurely, allowing the Egyptians to capture and identify one of the bombers, which in turn led to the round up of an Israeli spy ring.
Some of the spies were from Israel, while others were recruited from the local Jewish population. Israel responded to the scandal with claims in the media that there was no spy ring, that it was all a hoax perpetrated by "anti-Semites". But as the public trial progressed, it was evident that Israel had indeed been behind the bombing. Eventually, Israeli's Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon was brought down by the scandal, although it appears that he was himself the victim of a frame-up by the real authors of the bombing project, code named "Operation Susannah."

It is therefore a fact that Israel has a prior history of setting off bombs with the intent to blame Arabs for them.

This is not the only example of a "False Flag" operation designed to trick the United States into attacking Israel's enemies. According to Victor Ostrovsky, a Mossad defector now living in Canada, Ronald Reagan was tricked into bombing Libya by means of a radio transmitter smuggled into Tripoli by the Mossad, which broadcast messages designed to fool the United States into thinking Libya was about to launch a massive terror attack on the west. On the basis of this fake evidence, the US bombed Libya, killing Khadaffi's daughter.

The Jews of Iraq is a story by a Jewish writer revealing yet another false flag operation where Israelis used bombs and planted the blame on Arabs


So, with this established history, it is now time to re-examine some facts about the World Trade Towers:

1. There is no proof at all of who was actually on the hijacked airplanes last 9/11. Even the head of the FBI admits that the only hard evidence are the names used by the hijackers on faked IDs. At least 7 of the men whose names were on those IDs have since turned up alive. Another had died back in 1999. None of the names of the alleged hijackers were on the passenger lists of the four aircraft. We do not know who was on those planes, only that we are supposed to think they were Arab Muslims.
2. The night before the attacks on the World Trade Towers, men using those stolen identities visited bars and strip clubs, making sure they would be noticed and remembered by all they met. Students of Islam will confirm that no Muslim devout enough to be willing to commit suicide would spend the night before he was to meet Allah violating so many of Islam's laws regarding alcohol and nude women. This suggests the planting of a false trail ahead of time, doubly so because we know the identities were stolen. Coupled with the deception of the faked Osama "confession" video tape , it is beyond question that deception and fraud exists in the World Trade Towers case.

3. Contrary to early reports (including a statement by George Bush) of large numbers of Israelis being killed in the 9-11 attacks, only two Israelis died, both passengers on the airplanes. No Israelis working in or near the World Trade Towers died. The foreign press has long rumored that Israelis were given an advance warning not to go to work on 9-11, and in the case of Odigo, an Israeli company with offices located near the World Trade Towers, the existence of a warning message sent before the four aircraft had even left the ground is an established fact. That someone in Israel knew of the attacks ahead of time is beyond question.

4. There is an Israeli spy ring. As in the Lavon Affair, Israeli assets have been trying to dismiss the spy ring story (apparently with the FBI's help) while accusing those who refuse to be silent of "anti-Semitism". The lesson from the Lavon case is that Israel's strident denials and smear campaigns are a sure sign that something is indeed being covered up, even as the "art students" continue to be deported. And, as a US Official stated in Carl Cameron's suppressed story on the Israeli Spy/Bugging Ring, evidence does exist that links the arrested Israeli spies with 9-11, but that this evidence has been classified by the United States Government, probably to keep from looking like total idiots at having been so easily fooled for the Nth time.

The United States has been deceived before by Israeli covert operations with the intention of harming American relations with the Arab nations. Israel has never hesitated to kill Americans (USS Liberty) or allow Americans to be killed (The bombing in Beirut that killed 241 American Marines) when it serves a purpose. And, the fact remains that Israel has exploited 9-11 from the instant when Ehud Barak appeared on the BBC moments after the attacks on the World Trade Towers (holding a prepared speech) to the aggression against the Palestinian people which has escalated non-stop ever since 9-11.

Who is responsible for the World Trade Towers attacks? We truly do not know. What we do know beyond all doubt is that someone went to a great deal of effort to provide an easy and at times all-too-obvious a target to blame. Our nation was fooled by that stunt before. The result was that our money and the blood of our children was spent to attack someone else's enemies.

There is an old saying that goes, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME!"

There is another saying, "We won't get fooled again!"


Who has the most to gain?

Forget about all what the media is saying and let's think rationally together. Let's first agree that the attack on NY and DC
was very well planned and organized by SMART people who knew how and where to hit in order to hurt! Then, let's follow the FBI investigation.

Do you think that those smart people who planned the attack are SO STUPID to use their real names in booking the flight tickets and renting cars? (all 18 names are of Muslims with Arabic origin)

Obviously, the answer is NO.

Do you think that the attackers were so stupid to leave behind them cars and suit cases full of Arabic manuals and videotapes teaching how to fly commercial flights?

Of course, the answer is NO.

That leads us to the next question: Who is suffering the most after the victims? families and friends?

Obviously, the answer is the Arab-Americans who are being harassed everywhere in the U.S. as well as Muslims and Arabs through out the world.

Who did benefit the most from this crisis situation?

The answer is: ISRAEL

The attack managed to unify all Americans and the whole world against Muslims/Arabs and Islam in general. The attack managed to silence all voices asking Israel to stop their terrorism against the Palestinians. The whole world got shocked with the attack leaving Israel free to torture Palestinians without anyone hearing or seeing or objecting!! Not only this, but now Saddam Hussain and Iraq (israel's enemy) is destroyed!!

If you add it all up, you'll see the hands of "al Mussed" the Israeli Intelligence Services behind the attack.They have the resources required to carry out such an attack and to cover it up with all those false leads.The question now is,Would the FBI continue the investigation all the way to the end until they find the hands and minds behind the attack or are they going to stop upon identifying all those names of Arabs and link them to Bin-Laden and then rush to destroy Afghanistan?

Unfortunately, the Americans have no willingness or appetite to discover anybody behind the attack other than Bin-Laden and Islam (we didn't forget the investigation of Egyptair 990)! Now, how can we let the whole world think rationally that way and not jump to false conclusions?

Copying and pasting is fun!

The Lavon Affair
By Doron Geller

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This week we will be discussing a spy story in Israel's early years that left a nasty mark on the young state, with reverberations for the following 20 years. It was called the "Lavon Affair," after Defense Minister Pinhas Lavon, "Esek HaBish" or "The Mishap". It revolved around nearly a dozen highly dedicated young Egyptian Jews who were asked, and agreed to spy for Israel against the country in which they were born. Why they were caught and more or less abandoned by Israel to incarceration and for a while, torture in Egypt's prisons to be finally released only 14 years later is a question that has never been answered. This story, known as "Operation Susannah," is thus one of idealism and self-sacrifice, as well as abandonment and an unwillingness to take responsibility.

Due to strict censorship in Israel, few knew more than in the year 1954, Israeli underground cells had been operating in Egypt which were subsequently uncovered by the Egyptian police. The young Jews were arrested and forced to undergo a show trial. Two people, Yosef Carmon and Max (Meir) Binnet, committed suicide in prison due to the brutal interrogation methods of the Egyptian police. Two more, Dr. Moshe Marzouk of Cairo and Shmuel Azar of Alexandria, were sentenced to death and hanged in a Cairo prison. Israel glorified them as martyrs. Their memory was sanctified. Neighborhoods and gardens were named after them in Israel, as were dozens of children born in the year 1955. At the same time it was not publicly conceded that they died in the service of Israel. The other six heroes of the "Esek HaBish" were far less prominently known. They were sentenced to long jail terms, where they languished for years. Tow of them, Meir Meyuhas and Meir Za'afran, were released in 1962, after having served seven year jail sentences. Shrouded in secrecy, they reached Israel where their arrival was not made public, and journalists were not allowed to interview them. Sworn to silence, they reconstructed their lives to the best of their ability, far from the spotlight.

That left four more "Zionist spies," as they came to be called in Egypt. Marcelle Ninio, a woman, and Robert Dassa, both sentenced to 15 years' imprisonment, and Victor Levy and Philip Nathanson, who were sentenced for life. Marcelle Ninio was kept on her own in the women's prison in Kanather. The men were jailed together for fourteen years, mainly in the Tura prison.

Why would such young Jews risk their lives for an Arab country in which they were born, for a country - Israel - which until 1952 they had never seen? And why would Israel decide to open up a cell of native Jews to spy for them?

For Israel, sources of information were drying up in Egypt after the War of Independence of 1948. Perhaps more than half of Egypt's approximately 80,000 Jews had left for Israel by mid-1950. Egyptian Muslims were more openly hostile and distrustful of those Jews who remained, which led many Jews to sever any connection they had with Israel. Israel thus needed sources of information. More than that, by the early 1950's Egyptian nationalist agitation against the British presence in Egypt and especially in the Suez Canal Zone was intensifying. Britain was speaking openly about leaving Egypt as she had from Palestine a few years before, in 1948. British troops in the Canal Zone were living in similar conditions to those in Palestine by the end of the Mandate - behind barbed wire in protected zones.

The Israelis, meanwhile, did not want the British to leave. The British presence guaranteed a buffer of sorts to an attempted Egyptian invasion of Israel. With the British gone, there would be nothing to stand between Egypt and Israel but the vast wastelands of the Sinai.

Thus the Israelis approached a number of native Egyptian Jews, who recruited others, usually from among their own social circle. These Egyptian Jews were ready to spy against Egypt because they never regarded themselves, nor did others regard them, as Egyptians. They attended Jewish schools, their social contacts were limited almost exclusively to Jews, and most of them did not even hold Egyptian citizenship.

Unlike other Middle Eastern Jewish communities, the perhaps 80,000 pre-1948 Egyptian Jewish population had shallow roots. Many Jews had arrived in Egypt only in the second half of the 19th century or the beginning of the 20th. Some settled in Egypt while on the way to Palestine from Yemen or North Africa. Others were former Ottoman Jews, hailing from all over the pre World War I Ottoman Middle Eastern Empire.

Egypt even became somewhat of a haven for Jews expelled from Palestine by the Turks during World War I. David Ben-Gurion was one of the many Palestinian Jews who spent time in Egypt during the war years of 1914-18. After the war, some Jews even came from Eastern Europe, fleeing from the Communist revolution. While many of them would have preferred to go to America or Palestine, they were unable to so they remained in Egypt. Like other foreign colonies, such as the Italians and Greeks, the Jews lived in Egypt without really striking roots. They lived mainly in their own neighborhoods in Cairo and Alexandria (as well as in a number of cities close to the Suez Canal), they attended their own schools, and spoke their own languages. As many of them were fairly well educated, they spoke French, the language of culture, and English, the language of Government. (The British remained in Egypt from 1882-1956, and ruled for much of that period). Many of them could not even read or write in Arabic, and spoke only a very basic Arabic.

Moshe Marzouk, an extremely bright young man studying to be a doctor when he entered the spy ring, was born in Cairo to the Karaite sect. The Karaites are a Jewish sect founded in Persia in the 8th century CE, recognizing only the written Bible - meaning the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings. The Karaites reject the oral, Talmudic tradition and thus the authority of the rabbis to interpret Jewish Scripture. "The movement flourished between the 10th and 12th centuries, spreading to Palestine, from there to Egypt and Syria, and into Europe by way of Spain and Byzantium." In their rejection of the Oral tradition, the Karaites are similar to the Samaritans, a tiny sect living on Mount Gerizim in the West Bank (or Judaea and Samaria). The Samaritans accept only the Five Books of Moses, rejecting the Prophets and Writings.

The Karaites in Egypt regarded themselves as Jews, as did the Egyptian Jewish community as a whole. The Karaite quarter bordered the Jewish Quarter of Cairo's Old City and was part of it. Like other Jews, the Karaites dreamed of Israel and took part in Zionist activity, whether legal or illegal (as it often was in Egypt by the 1940's). At the same time the Karaites mixed more with the Egyptian population as a whole, and Arabic was their first language. They were thus more integrated than other Jews. Some even bore Arabic names.

Moshe Marzouk's family came to Egypt from Tunisia at the beginning of the 20th century. His family retained their French citizenship, which was very common practice for Jews living in North African countries in the 19th and 20th centuries. In 1948, during Israel's War of Independence, there were attacks and even bombings by Egyptians on the Jewish sections of Egyptian cities. Moshe Marzouk was approached about organizing Jewish self-defense in Cairo in 1948, which he agreed to. Later, he worked helping Egyptian Jews emigrate to Israel.

Shmuel Azar, Victor Levy and Robert Dassa were born in Alexandria, a much more cosmopolitan city than Cairo. One could hear French, Italian and Greek as much as Arabic in Alexandria's broad, straight thoroughfares lined by French style buildings..

All three boys were born in Egypt. Robert Dassa's family was one of those that settled in Egypt on the way from Yemen to Palestine. In his pictures in prison, Robert, with his jet-black hair, dark complexion and mustache looked the most Egyptian of all.

Victor, Robert, and Philip Nathanson (another member of the spy ring) were all 16 in 1948, and all involved in Zionist activity. Shmuel Azar was four years older and not really part of their social group until later.

The espionage story began in the very early 1950's when the Israelis sent an undercover agent to Egypt by the name of Avraham Dar. He went by the name John Darling, posing as a British citizen of the island of Gibraltar. He taught the Egyptian Jewish spy ring about underground organizations and conspiratorial tactics. They learned how to make delayed action devices, letter bombs, and the intricacies of photography. In early 1952 most of them came to Israel - secretly, of course - in order to learn sabotage and underground techniques. Most of them fell in love with Israel and vowed to do whatever they could to help.

At a farewell party for the small number of Egyptian Jews who participated in the course, they decided to call what they would be called upon to do "Operation Susannah." It was partly in jest, named after Victor Levy's fiancee, whose name was Susan Kauffman. She went with him to Israel and stayed. The spies were to return to Egypt, and they would know when to go into action when they would hear an Israel radio broadcast of the American song "Oh! Susannah."

Victor Levy left for Egypt in August 1952. On the way back to Egypt he first stopped off in Paris and then other locations in France in order to learn more about manufacturing explosives and some photography.

An Israeli agent by the name of Avraham Seidenberg was sent to take over the organization of the spy ring from his predecessor, Avraham Dar. Seidenberg was a good choice for such a dangerous mission - taking into account that he was an Israeli unlike the Egyptian Jews, and thus had more of a chance of his cover being blown. Yet he had little to lose. He had been caught looting Arab property during Israel's War of Independence and had never been able to rehabilitate himself in public life. His marriage, too, was on the rocks, and thus he was quite happy to be offered something that could lead to new vistas and opportunities.

Seidenberg was first sent to Germany to establish a false identity as a former SS officer by the name of Paul Frank. He successfully infiltrated the ranks of the underground former Nazi network. He set out for Egypt in early 1954, his new identity established. "He chalked up a number of successes, uncovering the underground route by which wanted Nazi war criminals slipped through to the Arab states, as well as supplying the first reports about Egyptian efforts to establish an arms industry with the help of German experts." Once he arrived in Egypt he began recruiting further members of the Egyptian Jewish community. Marcelle Ninio was one of those who were captivated by his show of confidence and by the fact that he was an Israeli. The other members of the cell - who all knew each other, which was an unfortunate portent and a major mistake in terms of organizing espionage operations - agreed to work for him as well. On July 2, 1954, they went into action. They first blew up some post offices and a few days later, the American libraries in Cairo and Alexandria. These operations were to "make it clear to the whole world that Egypt's new rulers were nothing but a group of foolhardy extremists, unreliable and unworthy of taking charge of an asset as important as the Suez Canal. Furthermore, it was to be demonstrated that their grasp on power was uncertain, that they faced powerful internal opposition, and, consequently, they were unworthy of being counted upon as a dependable ally."

Robert Dassa was one of the first of the spies to be caught. Philip Nathanson was caught soon after when, on the way to blow up a cinema in Alexandria, the bomb he was carrying in his pocket ignited and then exploded. What was a particularly alarming factor was that outside of the theater a fire engine was waiting, as if expecting them. Philip had the distinct feeling he was being watched. It turned out that he had been.

As Philip lay on the ground, he saw startled and frightened faces looking down at him. While somebody shouted "Take care! He may have another bomb!" Philip heard a police sergeant say "Don't worry, don't worry. We were waiting for them. These are the people who set fire to the American library." He was taken by ambulance to a hospital. After being lightly treated, he was interrogated by members of Egypt's military intelligence, the Muhabarrat. The others were caught soon after - Shmuel Azar, Philip Nathanson, Robert Dassa, and Marcelle Ninio. None of them had been prepared by their Israeli handlers for this eventuality.

They refused to implicate one another. At first, they didn't even admit to the bombings. When the police brought Philip Nathanson to his house with incriminating material, which were sure to implicate him, Philip continued to maintain that he was innocent of all charges. As he recalls being brought to his house; "'The house was overflowing with policemen and detectives in and out of uniform. They took me straight to the garden, and to the workshop in the garden hut. This too was so crowded there was no room for me, and I remained standing on the threshold…The policemen had piled the table with Vim cans, chemicals, and the fine scales I used for weighing them. With each item they found, they asked me: 'What's this? What's it for?'"
'I told them I was manufacturing dyes.'
'Sure,' said the governor sarcastically. 'There's a good market for them, praise be to Allah.'"

The police took everything they could from his house, even a fork and a spoon, to be used as evidence against them. Victor Levy, Robert Dassa and Philip Nathanson held up to the persistent questioning, threats, and occasional beatings. They maintained that they were Communists who wanted the British imperialists out of Egypt. This even earned them the admiration and respect from the Egyptians, who also wanted the British out. That is, until Shmuel Azar, who was constitutionally incapable of telling a lie, admitted that they were Jews and Zionists working on behalf of the State of Israel. Thereafter, the whole network was rounded up and arrested by August 5, 1954. "Paul Frank", or Avraham Seidenberg, meanwhile, did nothing, and left Egypt only on August 5, when Meir Meyuhas and Moshe Marzouk were arrested.

In Israel, Seidenberg got a hero's welcome as the only member of the network who had gotten away. Meanwhile, Marcelle Ninio waited nervously, not knowing what to do, wishing to leave, but unable to do so. Seidenberg never got back in contact with her, and in fact appeared to be very relaxed about the whole ordeal. He had even encouraged the Egyptian Jews to stay put before they were arrested. It was only years later that they began to question Seidenberg's role in the story. Israeli Intelligence began to suspect him much earlier.

The "Zionist spies," as they came to be called, hadn't been well treated before they admitted they had been working on behalf of Israel. But it was bearable. That all changed after their association with Israel was known. Marcelle Ninio was arrested and beaten mercilessly on the soles of her feet, she was threatened with sexual abuse, and it didn't let up. The torture became so unbearable that at one point she threw herself out of a window and nearly died. She only just managed to survive. She was taken to a hospital where she was allowed to heal.

The men were transferred from Alexandria to Cairo, where the prison guards were known to be even more savage than their Alexandrian counterparts. They were taken to the Sigan Harbi, a prison notorious for its cruelty - a reputation the guards there very much wanted to maintain. When they were marched down the stinking and decrepit hallways, in chains, they could hear cries coming out of the other cells. In the near future those cries would sometimes be of their friends. This went on day and night. Treatment was something akin to a medieval torture chamber. Moreover, there were rivalries between the police and prison guards on the one side, and the Muhabarrat (military intelligence) on the other. Both sides wanted to prove that they could extract more information than the other.

The prison guards would sometimes hang the prisoners up with their arms tied behind their heads, and beat the prisoners savagely until they fainted, and sometimes even died. The truth is that this treatment was not only meted out to the Jewish spies - Egyptian members of the Muslim Brotherhood, who were fierce opponents of Nasser's secular, socialist, military regime - received exactly the same treatment, and sometimes even worse. At one point one of the higher level prison guards, after savagely beating a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, called in Robert Dassa. The guard told him to beat the Moslem Brother. "Now, I am going to let a Jew beat you."

Robert refused. The Moslem Brotherhood member's eyes, cringing with fear, softened a little. The guards turned on Robbie savagely and told him to beat the prisoner or else. He wouldn't. A gang of guards then set upon Robbie, savagely beating him, while the Moslem Brother pleaded with the guards to stop beating Robbie. As long as he could, Robbie stoically refused to cry out and give the guards any kind of satisfaction.

After months of this kind of treatment they were finally brought to trial. The verdict was predetermined from the start, a fact which was known as long ago as 1956. The sentences were a compromise between the extremists of the new government, who wanted all of the spies put to death, and those more moderate members of the government, "who preferred to win the world's sympathy for their regime by a more humane approach. This is confirmed by the court's presiding judge, Gen. Fuad el Digwi, when he fell into Israeli captivity during the 1956 campaign. At the time he was the military governor of the Gaza Strip. He told his interrogators: 'The verdict was dictated to me by my supervisors, who decided how many were to be sentenced to death, how many to imprisonment, and for what terms.'"

The trial went on for two weeks. As a show trial, it was staged for two purposes. "Abroad, it was to stress the story that 'Israel tried to undermine Egyptian-American friendship'; at home, it would show that the regime's severity was not confined to the Moslem Brotherhood alone." As we discussed above, the Nasser regime treated the Moslem Brothers as badly as the Jewish spies.

The trial was given "unusual publicity." The press emphasized again and again how dangerous the 'Israeli' spies were to Egypt, and demanded severe punishment. Naturally, the press pronounced the Jews guilty before the court did. Such intensive and ongoing press coverage had a deeply demoralizing effect on the families of the imprisoned Jewish spies. In court, however, they showed smiles of encouragement from the spectators' gallery, as did the spies themselves. Marcelle Ninio was completely healed by then - it is unlikely they would have permitted her to be shown to the outside world in any other way.

Moshe Marzouk publicly took responsibility for the group and everything that they had done. The presiding Military Judge, General Digwi was taken aback by the admission. On only one point did Moshe concede to his companions' pleas not to reveal more about their activities; and that was not to admit that they had undergone military training in Israel.

After the trial the men were transferred to Tura Prison. Moshe Marzouk and Shmuel Azar were sentenced to be hanged. Massive world pressure was applied on the Egyptian Government not to hang the two condemned men. American President Eisenhower intervened, as did the Indian President Nehru - and even the Pope. The Egyptians, aware of the American hangings of the Rosenbergs, Jewish Americans who had spied on behalf of the Soviet Union, responded; "Egypt (will) treat its spies in precisely the same manner adopted by the United States." Moshe Marzouk and Shmuel Azar were hanged in early 1955.

Marcelle Ninio was sentenced to 15 years in the women's prison of Kanather - the longest sentence ever for a women political prisoner in Egypt. The previous high had been 8 years.

After the hangings of Moshe Marzouk and Shmuel Azar, relations between Egypt and Israel considerably worsened. Palestinian infiltration from Gaza into Israel, with Egyptian connivance, considerably increased, as did Israeli retaliatory raids. Border tensions were reflected in the prison. The Egyptian guards frequently incited the Moslem prisoners against their fellow Jewish prisoners. When the prisoners were sent out to the quarries to undergo grueling, back-breaking labor cutting and hauling rocks, the "Zionist spies" were under constant threat of falling rocks loosened by ill-intentioned fellow prisoners. The Jews did have an advantage, however; Robbie was known in their old prison (the Sigan Harbi), as someone who had helped the Moslem Brothers who had been tortured by the prison authorities. They saw that he refused to beat a fellow prisoner and had been beaten in return. He also helped many other prisoners beaten so badly that they could hardly walk to get back and forth to the bathroom when they needed to.

In theory, while the Moslem Brothers should have hated Robbie and his fellow Jewish prisoners, they recognized what he had done for them. When he was transferred to Tura, word was passed that Robert had helped the Moslem Brotherhood, and that henceforth he was to be treated as one of them. In fact, Robert and the other Jewish prisoners formed friendships with men whom, on the outside, they would have been bitter enemies with.

It is almost touching to see how the Jewish prisoners, in jail, formed relations with other prisoners who were fully aware of the fact that they had been caught and sentenced for spying for Israel. Although tensions heated up during the 1956 war, after it many Moslem guards and prisoners told the Jewish prisoners that they had every reason to be released in a prisoner exchange, and wished them the best.

It seemed logical that they would be released; Israel held 5000 Egyptian prisoners after her conquest of the Sinai. But they traded them all back for one Israeli pilot. Israel didn't even ask for the spies. It is not clear why this was the case. Either Israel did not want to ask, and thereby admit their involvement in the affair (which could have endangered Israel's relations with the United States); or else the Israelis simply didn't want to get involved. Many of the Israelis originally involved in the "Lavon Affair" or "Esek HaBish" had been forced out of office and no longer wanted anything to do with it. They didn't raise their voices in protest over the abandonment of the spies; they simply didn't bring the subject up. Whatever the case, the spies continued to languish in prison, long after the last of the Egyptian prisoners returned home.

One person who became convinced that something had gone amiss, and that people in Israel were to blame - was David Ben-Gurion. In a Commission of Inquiry into the Affair published in December 1960, Pinhas Lavon, (the Defense Minister at the time of the capture of the spies in 1954) was declared not guilty of authorizing the operation. All the ministers in Ben-Gurion's accepted this ruling except for Ben-Gurion himself. A bitter debate ensued which subsequently went on for years. But by then most of those involved in the affair had been removed from their posts. Motke Ben-Tzur, head of a section of Military Intelligence in 1954, had been dismissed in October of that year. Pinhas Lavon resigned from the post of Defense Minister on January 2, 1955. Binyamin Gibli, the Director of military Intelligence, was replaced as well.

The only man to emerge unscathed was Avraham Seidenberg, alias "Paul Frank," alias "Robert", who was subsequently referred to in Israel as "the Third Man". He had given the order to the cell to act - and he was the only one who escaped. As we saw, he returned to a hero's welcome in Israel, his role in the affair unquestioned at the time. Israeli Intelligence even sent him on another mission to Germany.

Isser Harel served as head of the Shin Bet and the Mossad from 1952-1963. He became a giant in early Israeli intelligence, responsible for the capture of Adolph Eichmann and many other operations, as we shall see in a few weeks. Isser Harel was known to act on his instincts - which often proved him correct. He began to suspect Seidenberg. He ordered Seidenberg back from Germany, and then removed him from Intelligence in October 1956. But Seidenberg was still not arrested or even accused of anything at the time.

To soften the blow, Seidenberg was asked to write reports on his activities in Egypt and Germany. He was given access to archives, and years later, it was discovered that he took some of the top-secret documents he then had access to. He served a short prison term, but after his discharge, his father in Austria became ill and Avraham Seidenberg went to visit him. In fact he went several times. He was, however, forbidden from entering Germany. He went anyway, and he made contact with Nuri Otman, an Egyptian. Seidenberg let it be known that he was prepared to sell important information to Egypt for a sizable payment.

Isser Harel started checking on Seidenberg. He confirmed that Seidenberg was not authorized to go to Germany or to make contact with a foreign agent. "'We came to the conclusion' said Harel, "that his unlawful contacts with Nuri Otman - as deputy commander of military intelligence and head of the Egyptian Army's security services - had been in direct charge of investigating the activities of the 'Zionist network' in 1954.'" This meant that Seidenberg might very well have been a double agent working for Egypt as well as Israel. By implication this meant that he might have turned over the Jewish spy network to his Egyptian handlers, and permitted them to be caught and then jailed while he got away.

Isser Harel tricked Seidenberg to come back to Israel by offering him a nice position business-wise, while maintaining a connection with Intelligence. Seidenberg did come back to Israel at the end of 1957.

A senior Intelligence officer interviewed Seidenberg about a new position, while two other senior Intelligence officers concealed themselves "in the neighboring room with the door slightly ajar…When Avraham Seidenberg settled in his chair, the interviewing officer presented the first question: 'Tell me, Avry, could you swear by everything holy that you have never spied against the state of Israel?'
Avry hesitated for a brief moment before launching on his predictable string of denials. That moment sealed his fate." Under interrogation he denied everything. Many investigative committees were appointed. They concluded that not only had he committed perjury, but that the heads of Intelligence services had induced witnesses such as Seidenberg to commit perjury, they had lied themselves and had committed forgeries in 1954.

Investigations in his home turned up bundles of illegal, highly sensitive intelligence material. He went on trial for that and was convicted. (Nevertheless, a committee was unable to find sufficient legal material to try Seidenberg for betraying his colleagues to the Egyptian police in 1954). He claimed that the whole Intelligence Services was conspiring against him and only he was telling the truth. The court did not accept that and he was sentenced to ten years' imprisonment.

After serving his ten years as an exemplary prisoner, he was released, and briefly sold television sets in Tel-Aviv before emigrating to California in 1972, still denying everything.

All of the political rumblings were reported in the Egyptian press. From there the news filtered down to the prison. Guards and prisoners once again became hostile to them. This treatment did not last long as they went on an 11-day hunger strike, which led to better treatment. In general, they were well liked and respected, even in those tense times, by the rest of the guards and prisoners.

They had many skills that they put to good use in prison - such as photography, gardening, painting, playing basketball - and raising animals. When one of the guards saw one of Robert's paintings, he wanted one. Soon enough all the other guards did as well. In return, they would do favors for him. When they saw Victor or Philip gardening, they wanted gardens in front of their own workplaces as well. It is rather bizarre, knowing of the often vicious nature of the Arab-Israeli conflict, that one finds the status of the Jewish spies so high in Egyptian prisons. Their raising of ducks and parakeets within the prison particularly impressed the prison administration.

The duck farm was a rather amusing story in itself. Once one of the ducks began hatching eggs, they decided to ask the notoriously cruel administrator to give them an incubator. The Mudir (administrator), Immara - was enthusiastic about the project. Victor gave him a mother and three little ducks, and Immara would go every day "to feast his eyes on them." Moreover, he supported Victor's project wholeheartedly. "Anything I requested for the ducklings was provided. No sooner did I see that a rearing house was needed than carpenters were summoned and the structure went up before my very eyes. Two convicts were placed at my disposal, to grind up the food scraps from the kitchen. When the ducklings grew feathers and their time came to leave the rearing house, Immara ordered the orchestra to vacate the two rooms behind the amphitheater where it used to hold rehearsals. The rooms were converted into duck runs." Victor continued: "After a year or two, the duck farm ran the whole length of the prison wall." There was a school building attached to the prison, but "Immara ordered the pupils out and placed three of the classrooms at my disposal, to serve as rearing-rooms, this time, equipped with electric stoves. The incubator hut was now fitted out with three up-to-date incubators operating simultaneously. The kitchen scraps no longer sufficed, but Immara did not hesitate to requisition the convicts' bran to feed the ducks.'"

Immara was a very strange character. The spies knew him from another prison, ten years before, where he had been notoriously brutal, savage and cruel to the prisoners. When he came to Tura he was determined to prove himself again. He took away the accumulated belongings most prisoners had accrued in their cells. When he first arrived at Tura and saw the spies' cell, he smiled, asked how they were, didn't seem bothered by the birds twittering around in their cell, and moved on. He didn't conduct a search or confiscate a thing.

Soon after he made everyone vacate their cells and move into new ones with the exception of the Jews. Other prisoners questioned his behavior. The Jews didn't know what to make of him themselves. For a long time they assumed he showed favoritism to them because they acquired Swiss medicines for him from the outside, which were unavailable in Egypt. But this was not the only reason. "Only years later, on the eve of his release, when Victor went to Immara to say good-bye, did the Mudir reveal a further reason for the change in his attitude towards them. His brother-in-law, while serving as an army doctor at El Arish, had been taken prisoner during the Sinai campaign, and was treated well by the Israelis. 'To this day, he tells me how well your people behaved toward him.' Immara took it upon himself to repay in kind."

Immara grew to have complete confidence in Victor in particular, mainly because of the duck farm. "Matters reached such a point that even guards punished by the Mudir for some offense would plead with Victor: 'He docked me ten days' pay and I don't have enough to feed my children as it is. Please, do something for me.'" With Robert Dassa running the prison basketball team, Victor in charge of gardening and the duck farm and gardening, and Philip Nathanson holding several important posts, they all "enjoyed a position of exclusivity, with considerable freedom of movement." Their renown extended far outside the prison walls. "In Cairo's Sigan Misr, which served as a transit station for prisoners sentenced to hard labor, old lags would advise (new) prisoners on their way to Tura: 'When you get there, try to contact the three Jewish spies. They're the mukhtars (headmen) of the prison. If they want to, they can be of great help to you." It brings to mind the story of Joseph, thrown into Pharaoh's dungeons, rising to become the headmen of his prison in Egypt more than 3000 years before.

Comparatively, Marcelle Ninio did well for herself as well. People who liked her supplied her with a radio and books. She obtained writing paper and envelopes and tried her best to keep in contact with the males in the Tura prison. She also made some real friends in the prison, particularly among the nurses.

Near the end of their imprisonment the Israeli spy Wolfgang Lotz was thrown into Tura with them as well. Everyone, including the Jew, thought he was a German who had spied on behalf of Israel. After he revealed the truth to them, they took him into their inner circle, as they had done with a select group of other prisoners. Lutz, even though he had been convicted of spying for Israel, won over the guards and prisoners at Tura, just as Robert, Victor, and Philip had.

As tensions increased during the countdown to the 1967 war, there were rumors that the Jewish prisoners might be harmed. Immara made sure that didn't happen.

Israel achieved a tremendous victory in 1967. This time, Israel didn't forget her spies. Although it took months, they were finally released in February 1968. The prison guards, administration, and even many of the prisoners wished them well. They all built new lives for themselves in Israel - albeit quietly, with little fanfare. It was only some time after President Nasser's death in 1970 that the Jewish spies came forth publicly to tell their story.

As for your thesis of Israel being behind September 11th, this is all I have to say:

http://www.amler.com/dvd/graphix/Conspiracy%20Theory.jpg

rrrryyytt wen u hav something CONSTRUCTIVE to say about my proofs of israel's obvious terror reign then come bak, not some mumbo jumbo about the lavon affair and a picture of mel gibson and julia roberts. Merkava, you seem to constanty defend Israel's worst massacres and terrorist activities in their history. Why can't you accept that israel isnt all that blameless? i'm not saying that palestinians are right when they go and blow themselves up, but two wrongs don't make a right. remember that fool.

At the end of the day, no matter what excuses you make for israel, that country deliberately tried to frame the Arabs for blowing up the US embassies in Egypt. If it would have been successful, then war would have surely broken out. This is very similar to September 11th - perhaps this time they were successful???

i don't give a **** what the egyptians did to piss israel so much off, all I know is that israel tried to do something, that if would have been successful, could have resulted in an outbreak of war between the eastern and western worlds. Luckily, it wasn't. It's just a shame that on sept 11th israel seem to have been successful.

You call me a racist, when I'm against the Transfer of Palestinians - yet - you're for the Transfer of Israelis. Plenty of Logic there.

Zionists like you merkava are hyprocrites. For example, you say that after the 1948 plan the Palestinians wanted to push the Jews into the sea. Yet, this is what the Israelis now do to the Palestinians! You say that the Palestinians want the Israelis out - its actually the other way around! I'm sure if you had the chance merkava, you would kill every single palestinians, whether he was a muslim, christian or jew.

You mean if the palestinians WERENT there, not if they were they, you stupid ignorant zionist!!

Holy Crap, reading this makes me sick, check it out!
http://www.lightscion.com/voxnyc/fe...han_fiction.htm

I guess you're pretty gullible then....

"Come on guys! It was the Zionists who blew up your towers and Pentagon! It wasnt Muslims! JEWS!"

"Now PWEEEZ stop sending foreign aid to Israel! Stop supporting them! In fact, Help us DESTROY THEM! THE LAND OF PALESTINE WILL BE OURS!"

"PALESTINE WILL BE FREE! FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA! "

Propaganda much?

LMAO, if you check out the link, it didnt say any of that, your just showing us your ignorance and knowledge, go grab a Hooked-On-Phoniks program.

Wow. That was an amazing site. I honestly read that article closely, it took me about an hour.

I understand now the Jews involvement in World War one, and I understand why the Germans hated the Jews so much. Dam, beckyt was even right about some things!

Me - I don't know what to believe any more. Perhaps it was Bin Laden, perhaps it was zionists, perhaps it was America itself?!

Although what ever the truth may be, one thing is for sure

- There is only one country in the world who have benefited from this terrible tragedy: ISRAEL

Man what a waste of my time to read this post. LOL some of the stuff you people who hate jews come up with just blows me away. For the record I"m not jew.

antizionist - provide evidence of the ridiculous claims made in that article.
particularly these two
in the case of Odigo, an Israeli company with offices located near the World Trade Towers, the existence of a warning message sent before the four aircraft had even left the ground is an established fact. That someone in Israel knew of the attacks ahead of time is beyond question
At least 7 of the men whose names were on those IDs have since turned up alive
___
also i would like to hear how the bombing of a us embassy in egypt would have lead to a war between egypt and the united states. terrorist actions do not inevitably lead to war.

Let's see. We scraped up the body parts and dna from those Saudis after 911.
What's the conspiracy?

For the record this post was written months ago, and I can now see how foolish it was. The people that believe this are either anti-israel, anti-semetic or just plain stupid.

There is still belief that Israel was involved in the 9/11 attacks, if you want, ill PM you a thread of it.

There's also still a belief that Elvis shot JFK.

Go ahead and research it and come to a conclusion.

I'm not saying there's no evidence for it, there are suspicious circumstances, but I still think it's a bit farfetched. I think if it was true everybody would know about it by now.

I dont think that the Jewish controlled media would ever leak it, lets look at the story about the 5 Israelis who were caught dancing and taking pictures infront of the twin-towers as they burned and fell, they were celebrating the attacks, were they just citizens or tourists? Nope. The media barely covered it, and right now, people barely know about it.

What evidence was given to us to make sure that those who planned the attacks and carried them out was Al'Qeada?

The Quran found in the bags? Which could be easily planted.

The tape of Osama Bin Laden praising the attack? In that tape, it was no Osama Bin Laden, looking at the pictures of the tapes, I never knew that Osama Bin Laden got a nose job, since its against Islam, and he is a follower of Islam.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/binladen_tape.jpg
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/binladen8.jpg

Questions of the 9/11 attacks are left to be unanswered, and that attack cost Thousands of lifes, atleast we should find out if Al'Qaeda did it or not.

AZ, i will PM you that thread and you will find it very interesting.

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/...News.34954.html

Look at the date of that article.

All this drivel about the Mossad being BEHIND 9/11 - and their only actual involvement is WARNING the United states ahead of time.

Oh yeah, an Israeli source will tell the truth when it comes to 9/11, if Israel did have any involvement or knew about the 9/11 attacks and didnt try to warn the U.S, im sure that it would loose a lot of support, we dont have a lot of good evidence that it did, but atleast having a bit, shouldnt be good for Israel.

You have the audacity to say that Jews were dancing in front of the twin towers when the entire people of Palestine were holding parades and celebrations?

What I find funny is after all this time, even when OBL has admitted that he was behind 9/11 and was planning other attacks that are worse in the US, we still have those that subscribe to idiocies like Israel was behind 9/11.

The continued efforts to exonerate OBL and to completely refute US finding are rooted in deceit, hate, treachery, and brainwashing. I’ll never forget when it first came out, just about every Muslim country in the world said the US made up the tape and used our technology to make OBL the culprit behind 9/11 so we could bomb Afghanistan.

Facts are these. The Arab/Muslim world will always believe the US and Israel is the devil. Everything we do will always be construed as evil and trickery by them even when they are faced with evidence, they will deny and accuse US of manipulating it.

I find it funny how when I search Arab websites none of them even mentioned the beheading of Berg and we still see nothing but articles about abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

The Arab/Muslim world could care less about truth or justice and many of them don’t even care for the people they accuse Israel and the US of oppressing. They simply hate the US because they are taught to do so and nothing will change.

Uh huh

Don't forget that the Qu'ran instructs Muslims to lie if it will benefit them/Allah. It also says that an agreement/contract is not binding when it is with an infidel. Keep this in mind as we try to bring democracy to Iraq.

I did not see any evidence that it was Al'Qeada who did 9/11, i really dont want to get into this, it wont take us nowhere, lets drop it.

Just wondering why those 5 Israelis were celebrating the attack, after all the U.S is and has done for Israel......

Show me proof there were 5 Israelis.... Now show me proof there were 5 Israelis celebrating?..... Who saw them? How did they know they were Israeli?...


Why are so you quick to believe that, oh young one?

Because he's very uneducated, I think that's obvious by now Merk.

Ok, school is open TWBR. Pay attention because there's going to be a test afterward.

Al Qaeda claims responsibility for Sept 11 attackes

Ok test.

Who claimed responsibility for 9/11?

You know "denial" isn't a river in Egypt.

You know today is the last day of school( at least in my area). How totally unfair that you would present a test on this day.

Aside from the fact that various members of Al Quaeda have claimed responsibility for the attack, the FBI investigated the 5 Israelis who were on the scene taking photographs of the event (along with 1000's of other people that day). They held them in detention for 72 days, searched their persons, vehicles and offices. Their conclusion was that there was no evidence linking them to 9/11. If there had been a scintilla of evidence connecting them to 9/11, the US would never have released them.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020...van_020621.html

Critical excerpt:

"Despite the denials, sources tell ABCNEWS there is still debate within the FBI over whether or not the young men were spies. Many U.S. government officials still believe that some of them were on a mission for Israeli intelligence. But the FBI told ABCNEWS, "To date, this investigation has not identified anybody who in this country had pre-knowledge of the events of 9/11."

Sources also said that even if the men were spies, there is no evidence to conclude they had advance knowledge of the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11. The investigation, at the end of the day, after all the polygraphs, all of the field work, all the cross-checking, the intelligence work, concluded that they probably did not have advance knowledge of 9/11," Cannistraro noted.

As to what they were doing on the van, they say they read about the attack on the Internet, couldn't see it from their offices and went to the parking lot for a better view. But no one has been able to find a good explanation for why they may have been smiling with the towers of the World Trade Center burning in the background. Both the lawyers for the young men and the Israeli Embassy chalk it up to immature conduct.

According to ABCNEWS sources, Israeli and U.S. government officials worked out a deal — and after 71 days, the five Israelis were taken out of jail, put on a plane, and deported back home.

While the former detainees refused to answer ABCNEWS' questions about their detention and what they were doing on Sept. 11, several of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home.

Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event."

Well I guess that settles it then. TWBR was right Israel did it.

So now I hear there's cheese on the moon. Maybe TW will take that as truth when the Palestinians tell him that also.

Wether they were spies or had any involvement in the 9/11 wasnt what i was talking about, i was talking about why they were celebrating the attacks.

Article from ABC News

Maria, who asked us not to use her last name, had a view of the World Trade Center from her New Jersey apartment building. She remembers a neighbor calling her shortly after the first plane hit the towers.
She grabbed her binoculars and watched the destruction unfolding in lower Manhattan. But as she watched the disaster, something else caught her eye.

Maria says she saw three young men kneeling on the roof of a white van in the parking lot of her apartment building. "They seemed to be taking a movie," Maria said.

The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background, she said. What struck Maria were the expressions on the men's faces. "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange," she said.

So the Palestinians celebrated the attacks, and we cant blame them for doing so, look at the U.S support of Israel, and just because its understandable doesnt mean that its right, its just that they had a good reason to celebrate an attack on America. Im pretty sure that they werent celebrating the 3,000 Deaths.

And 5 Israelis, 3 caught celebrating and filming the attacks, they have no reason to be doing so, im not too familiar with what they were doing in New York.

First of all, my understanding is that they dispute they were celebrating the attacks. The specific accusation from the unnamed witness is that saw them was that they "looked happy" at the moment in time that she saw them. That's a bit inconclusive.

Nevertheless, let's assume for the moment that they were "smiling" at one moment in time as they, like thousands of others, filmed the smoldering wreckage. If we can put Palestinians' celebration of the incident into context, we can do the same for them. Perhaps they were happy that the US was experiencing some of the terror that they have been experiencing, because they felt that the US would identify more with Israel and try to help them more.

In any event, smiling at a moment in time while looking onto to a catastrophic event may be evidence of immaturity, but it isn't evidence that they had anything to do with what happened. Is it a terrible thing if 5 Israelis were happy? Sure it is. It's also terrible that many, many Arabs celebrated this event. Yet no one is accusing any of those Arabs who celebrated of being involved.

I understand that many people who oppose Israel would rather have people believe that Israel is responsible for this rather than Islamic terrorists, but that doesn't make it so. The US has the most sophisticated law enforcement apparatus in the world, and every ounce of it was devoted to discovering who was responsible for these events. If their 71 day investigation of these men in detention could not reveal any link to the attack, the chances of their involvement are slim to none. This does not even begin to address the mountain of evidence linking Al Quaeda to the event.

- woolfe

Reply later

They were probably smiling cuz they were like "woaaaaahhhh I can't believe we're getting this on camera!"

This thread is tiresome. Why don't you guys discuss something relevant. Whether or not some people were happy about 9/11 should have no reflection on any group or groups. It is this type of narrow thinking that causes people to justify hatred of large numbers of people without even knowing them or their motivations. If every Muslim were to view every American as a terrorist simply because our government engages in terror tactics (domestically as well) perhaps more of them would cross the line to Islamist fundamentalism. Fortunately, there exists reason. Exercise some.
BOTTOM LINE: As long as people keep guiding their lives with 4000 year old books that tell us who is or isn't one of the "chosen" there will be no peace. These texts were written by guys who believed that the earth is flat and that thunder is the sound of an angry god!! How are we expected to survive in a world where primitive ideas are facilitated by modern weapons? Think about it. Beliefs define behavior. That's why it's not okay to let people believe whatever they want. It's becoming increasingly dangerous. Write about that.

someone said: That's why it's not okay to let people believe whatever they want. It's becoming increasingly dangerous. Write about that.

What's even more dangerous is that you actually believe its not okay for people to believe whatever they want.
I suggest using a time machine to go back to Germany in the 1930's or to the USSR most of the last century.
These days you could always live with the Taliban or become a citizen of communist China.
Those places would suit you better than New York, where all types of beliefs flourish.
Better yet, write your Congressman to come up with a bill that mandated babies get lobotomies after birth, and mandated everyone (except you of course) to receive a lobotomy. That would solve your entire dilemma.

sowhatsthetruth thinks that a refusal to validate outlandish or dangerous beliefs is the equivalent of mandated lobotomies. Then he/she uses Nazi Germany as a reference to support his/her claim that I'm an advocate of mind control. Consider that. If I'm not mistaken, Nazi Germany is a perfect example of outlandish beliefs run amuck.
No insult intended sowhatsthetruth, but I think you should reread what I wrote previously. Mind control through religion is what I wish to start a discourse about. The same kind of control that caused 19 people to kill 3000 three years ago. Surely you don't stand up in defense of the beliefs that those guys were harboring. Nor, I imagine, would you defend the beliefs that Christians of the time held when they carried out The Crusades. Nor the beliefs that motivated the Holocaust. Nor those of the Ku Klux Klan.
Noone should be forced to believe anything. But all to often people are raised to uphold unreasonable, polarizing or murderous beliefs. Surely this cannot be supported. I simply suggest that dangerous beliefs should be actively confronted and debated--not just ignored because its' easier. This sort of complacency is generally enjoyed by those in positions of relative safety and comfort and has cost countless lives throughout history.

holy crap what he hell are you talking about, and where did it come from?

im not referring to your overstylized speech (quite impressive, i must say). I can follow it fine.

i just thought this was a dead thread. start a new one, ethical, please. your statements warrant debate, but im not sure whether to argue or agree.

make a thread, with a clear topic. Id also like 2 know what side of the palestinian/israeli conflict u r on.

How many times must I explain that the Crusades were NOT Christians! I suppose I could put it as a signature.

obviously the Crusaders weren't Christian, but didn't they claim to be Chrsitian?

but yes isn't it wonderful when people blame the Crusades, people who didn't even have access to Bibles and lived in the dark ages of church corruption and greed. And they compare it to the old man handing out New Testaments on the street corner.

yeah, that's really bringin' society down. Preaching love and self control. Real bad stuff there.

I wish people would judge the Bible by its own standards, not the actions of some unrelated organization or by what they would do if they were God.

Even if it turns out there's not God, it's not religion that is the problem, it is mindless idealism. That includes a pastor who waits out side porn stores in the bushes, gets people's license plates and sends them Jesus-Junk-Mail. That includes the parents who are so politically correct that they hand their son a condom instead of saying "if you knock anyone up we're gonna f**k you up."

It seems so obvious doesnt it Dekka? This is what leads to frustration I suppose. Perhaps I should invent a dumb down pill so that stuff won't bother people like us.

Dekka 00--
Love and self control?!

"If your brother, the son of your father or of your mother, or your son or daughter, or the spouse that you embrace, or your most intimate friend tries to seduce you, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods', unknown to you or your ancestors before you, gods of the peoples surrounding you, whether near you or far away, anywhere throughout the world, you must not consent, you must not listen to him or conceal his guilt. No, you must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death and the hands of the rest of the people following. You must stone him to death, since he has tried to divert you from Yahweh your God."
(Deuteronomy 13:7-11)

"Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate."
(Koran 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous."
(Koran 9:123)

This is what was done on 9/11 by poeple with more conviction about their beliefs than you possess. I guess your just another religious moderate- a.k.a. someone who supports a scripture because they haven't read it. Do us all a favor and try to understand what you profess belief in. Just because the "Modern World" has elected to water down its' belief systems in the interest of productive cohabitation doesn't mean everyone has. 'Mindless idealism' is usually based on very real scripture. Both are insupportable.
See, we agree.

EA how is it that you can compare the Crusaders to what happened on 9/11 as relative? Maybe in belief but even if you believe Christians were “crusading” against Muslims, how long ago was that again? You compare these people to the modern day Christian?

You lack understanding. Just like those who commit such atrocities today in the name of religion. Arab Muslims are notorious for holding to such outdated idealisms while Christians today no longer support murdering unbelievers.

We live under what we call “grace”. In other words, since Yashoua died on the cross, the penalty for sin is no longer death but the opportunity for forgiveness is ever present. Christians don’t subscribe to slaughtering innocent people because they are unbelievers, that is the Muslims (extremists). You don’t see Christians on TV beheading people while yelling “Yahweh is great”.

Comparing the modern day Christian beliefs to those of Muslims are like apples and oranges. Muslim (extremists) cannot deliver their conscience from the dark ages of their older prophets.

This thread was a dead issue. Maybe you should start a new thread, state your position and allow people to respond in orderly debate.