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Posted by: jvstr

Clinton Monitored Iraq-Al Qaeda Ties
The Weekly Standard
12/23/2003


Are Al-Qaeda's links to Saddam Hussein's Iraq just a fantasy of the Bush administration? Hardly. The Clinton administration also warned the American public about those ties and defended its response to al Qaeda terror by citing an Iraqi connection.

For nearly two years, starting in 1996, the CIA monitored the al Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Khartoum, Sudan. The plant was known to have deep connections to Sudan's Military Industrial Corporation, and the CIA had gathered intelligence on the budding relationship between Iraqi chemical weapons experts and the plant's top officials. The intelligence included information that several top chemical weapons specialists from Iraq had attended ceremonies to celebrate the plant's opening in 1996. And, more compelling, the National Security Agency had intercepted telephone calls between Iraqi scientists and the plant's general manager.

Iraq also admitted to having a $199,000 contract with al Shifa for goods under the oil-for-food program. Those goods were never delivered. While it's hard to know what significance, if any, to ascribe to this information, it fits a pattern described in recent CIA reporting on the overlap in the mid-1990s between al Qaeda-financed groups and firms that violated U.N. sanctions on behalf of Iraq.

The clincher, however, came later in the spring of 1998, when the CIA secretly gathered a soil sample from 60 feet outside of the plant's main gate. The sample showed high levels of O-ethylmethylphosphonothioic acid, known as EMPTA, which is a key ingredient for the deadly nerve agent VX. A senior intelligence official who briefed reporters at the time was asked which countries make VX using EMPTA. "Iraq is the only country we're aware of," the official said. "There are a variety of ways of making VX, a variety of recipes, and EMPTA is fairly unique."

That briefing came on August 24, 1998, four days after the Clinton administration launched cruise-missile strikes against al Qaeda targets in Afghanistan and Sudan (Osama bin Laden's headquarters from 1992-96), including the al Shifa plant. The missile strikes came 13 days after bombings at U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania killed 257 people--including 12 Americans--and injured nearly 5,000. Clinton administration officials said that the attacks were in part retaliatory and in part preemptive. U.S. intelligence agencies had picked up "chatter" among bin Laden's deputies indicating that more attacks against American interests were imminent.

The al Shifa plant in Sudan was largely destroyed after being hit by six Tomahawk missiles. John McWethy, national security correspondent for ABC News, reported the story on August 25, 1998:

Before the pharmaceutical plant was reduced to rubble by American cruise missiles, the CIA was secretly gathering evidence that ended up putting the facility on America's target list. Intelligence sources say their agents clandestinely gathered soil samples outside the plant and found, quote, "strong evidence" of a chemical compound called EMPTA, a compound that has only one known purpose, to make VX nerve gas.

Then, the connection:

The U.S. had been suspicious for months, partly because of Osama bin Laden's financial ties, but also because of strong connections to Iraq. Sources say the U.S. had intercepted phone calls from the plant to a man in Iraq who runs that country's chemical weapons program.

The senior intelligence officials who briefed reporters laid out the collaboration. "We knew there were fuzzy ties between [bin Laden] and the plant but strong ties between him and Sudan and strong ties between the plant and Sudan and strong ties between the plant and Iraq." Although this official was careful not to oversell bin Laden's ties to the plant, other Clinton officials told reporters that the plant's general manager lived in a villa owned by bin Laden.

Several Clinton administration national security officials told THE WEEKLY STANDARD last week that they stand by the intelligence. "The bottom line for me is that the targeting was justified and appropriate," said Daniel Benjamin, director of counterterrorism on Clinton's National Security Council, in an emailed response to questions. "I would be surprised if any president--with the evidence of al Qaeda's intentions evident in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam and the intelligence on [chemical weapons] that was at hand from Sudan--would have made a different decision about bombing the plant."

The current president certainly agrees. "I think you give the commander in chief the benefit of the doubt," said George W. Bush, governor of Texas, on August 20, 1998, the same day as the U.S. counterstrikes. "This is a foreign policy matter. I'm confident he's working on the best intelligence available, and I hope it's successful."

Wouldn't the bombing of a plant with well-documented connections to Iraq's chemical weapons program, undertaken in an effort to strike back at Osama bin Laden's terrorist network, seem to suggest the Clinton administration national security officials believed Iraq was working with al Qaeda? Benjamin, who has been one of the leading skeptics of claims that Iraq was working with al Qaeda, doesn't want to connect those dots.

Instead, he describes al Qaeda and Iraq as unwitting collaborators. "The Iraqi connection with al Shifa, given what we know about it, does not yet meet the test as proof of a substantive relationship because it isn't clear that one side knew the other side's involvement. That is, it is not clear that the Iraqis knew about bin Laden's well-concealed investment in the Sudanese Military Industrial Corporation. The Sudanese very likely had their own interest in VX development, and they would also have had good reasons to keep al Qaeda's involvement from the Iraqis. After all, Saddam was exactly the kind of secularist autocrat that al Qaeda despised. In the most extreme case, if the Iraqis suspected al Qaeda involvement, they might have had assurances from the Sudanese that bin Laden's people would never get the weapons. That may sound less than satisfying, but the Sudanese did show a talent for fleecing bin Laden. It is all somewhat speculative, and it would be helpful to know more."

It does sound less than satisfying to one Bush administration official. "So, when the Clinton administration wants to justify its strike on al Shifa," this official tells me, "it's okay to use an Iraq-al Qaeda connection. But now that the Bush administration and George Tenet talk about links, it's suddenly not believable?"

The Clinton administration heavily emphasized the Iraq link to justify its 1998 strikes against al Qaeda. Just four days before the embassy bombings, Saddam Hussein had once again stepped up his defiance of U.N. weapons inspectors, causing what Senator Richard Lugar called another Iraqi "crisis." Undersecretary of State Thomas Pickering, one of those in the small circle of Clinton advisers involved in planning the strikes, briefed foreign reporters on August 25, 1998. He was asked about the connection directly and answered carefully.

Q: Ambassador Pickering, do you know of any connection between the so-called pharmaceutical plant in Khartoum and the Iraqi government in regard to production of precursors of VX?

PICKERING: Yeah, I would like to consult my notes just to be sure that what I have to say is stated clearly and correctly. We see evidence that we think is quite clear on contacts between Sudan and Iraq. In fact, al Shifa officials, early in the company's history, we believe were in touch with Iraqi individuals associated with Iraq's VX program.

Ambassador Bill Richardson, at the time U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, echoed those sentiments in an appearance on CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer," on August 30, 1998. He called the targeting "one of the finest hours of our intelligence people."

"We know for a fact, physical evidence, soil samples of VX precursor--chemical precursor at the site," said Richardson. "Secondly, Wolf, direct evidence of ties between Osama bin Laden and the Military Industrial Corporation--the al Shifa factory was part of that. This is an operation--a collection of buildings that does a lot of this dirty munitions stuff. And, thirdly, there is no evidence that this precursor has a commercial application. So, you combine that with Sudan support for terrorism, their connections with Iraq on VX, and you combine that, also, with the chemical precursor issue, and Sudan's leadership support for Osama bin Laden, and you've got a pretty clear cut case."

If the case appeared "clear cut" to top Clinton administration officials, it was not as open-and-shut to the news media. Press reports brimmed with speculation about bad intelligence or even the misuse of intelligence. In an October 27, 1999, article, New York Times reporter James Risen went back and reexamined the intelligence. He wrote: "At the pivotal meeting reviewing the targets, the Director of Central Intelligence, George J. Tenet, was said to have cautioned Mr. Clinton's top advisers that while he believed that the evidence connecting Mr. Bin Laden to the factory was strong, it was less than ironclad." Risen also reported that Secretary of State Madeleine Albright had shut down an investigation into the targeting after questions were raised by the department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (the same intelligence team that raised questions about prewar intelligence relating to the war in Iraq).

Other questions persisted as well. Clinton administration officials initially scoffed at the notion that al Shifa produced any pharmaceutical products. But reporters searching through the rubble found empty aspirin bottles, as well as other indications that the plant was not used exclusively to produce chemical weapons. The strikes came in the middle of the Monica Lewinsky scandal, leaving some analysts to wonder whether President Clinton was following the conspiratorial news-management scenario laid out in "Wag the Dog," then a hit movie.

But the media failed to understand the case, according to Daniel Benjamin, who was a reporter himself before joining the Clinton National Security Council. "Intelligence is always incomplete, typically composed of pieces that refuse to fit neatly together and are subject to competing interpretations," writes Benjamin with coauthor Steven Simon in the 2002 book "The Age of Sacred Terror." "By disclosing the intelligence, the administration was asking journalists to connect the dots--assemble bits of evidence and construct a picture that would account for all the disparate information. In response, reporters cast doubt on the validity of each piece of the information provided and thus on the case for attacking al Shifa."

Now, however, there's a new wrinkle. Bush administration officials largely agree with their predecessors. "There's pretty good intelligence linking al Shifa to Iraq and also good information linking al Shifa to al Qaeda," says one administration official familiar with the intelligence. "I don't think there's much dispute that [Sudan's Military Industrial Corporation] was al Qaeda supported. The link from al Shifa to Iraq is what there is more dispute about."

According to this official, U.S. intelligence has obtained Iraqi documents showing that the head of al Shifa had been granted permission by the Iraqi government to travel to Baghdad to meet with Emad al-Ani, often described as "the father of Iraq's chemical weapons program." Said the official: "The reports can confirm that the trip was authorized, but the travel part hasn't been confirmed yet."

So why hasn't the Bush administration mentioned the al Shifa connection in its public case for war in Iraq? Even if one accepts Benjamin's proposition that Iraq may not have known that it was arming al Qaeda and that al Qaeda may not have known its chemicals came from Iraq, doesn't al Shifa demonstrate convincingly the dangers of attempting to "contain" a maniacal leader with WMD?

According to Bush officials, two factors contributed to their reluctance to discuss the Iraq-al Qaeda connection suggested by al Shifa. First, the level of proof never rose above the threshold of "highly suggestive circumstantial evidence"--indicating that on this question, Bush administration policymakers were somewhat more cautious about the public use of intelligence on the Iraq-al Qaeda connection than were their counterparts in the Clinton administration. Second, according to one Bush administration source, "there is a massive sensitivity at the Agency to bringing up this issue again because of the controversy in 1998."

But there is bound to be more discussion of al Shifa and Iraq-al Qaeda connections in the coming weeks. The Senate Intelligence Committee is nearing completion of its review of prewar intelligence. And although there is still no CIA team assigned to look at the links between Iraq and al Qaeda, investigators looking at documents from the fallen regime continue to uncover new information about those connections on a regular basis.

Democrats who before the war discounted the possibility of any connection between Iraq and al Qaeda have largely fallen silent. And in recent days, two prowar Democrats have spoken openly about the relationship. Evan Bayh, a Democrat from Indiana who sits on the Intelligence Committee, told THE WEEKLY STANDARD, "the relationship seemed to have its roots in mutual exploitation. Saddam Hussein used terrorism for his own ends, and Osama bin Laden used a nation-state for the things that only a nation-state can provide."

And Joe Lieberman, the Connecticut Democrat and presidential candidate, discussed the connections in an appearance last week on MSNBC's "Hardball with Chris Matthews." Said Lieberman: "I want to be real clear about the connection with terrorists. I've seen a lot of evidence on this. There are extensive contacts between Saddam Hussein's government and al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. I never could reach the conclusion that [Saddam] was part of September 11. Don't get me wrong about that. But there was so much smoke there that it made me worry. And you know, some people say with a great facility, al Qaeda and Saddam could never get together. He is secular and they're theological. But there's something that tied them together. It's their hatred of us."

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Posted by: USA1

JV,
I knew this but, I don't understand why some refuse to comprehend the information.

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Posted by: AliasFan

quote:
USA1 said this in post #2 :
JV,
I knew this but, I don't understand why some refuse to comprehend the information.


Maybe because of the way the media portrays it. They focus so much on the Peterson case, the Kobe Bryant case, the the "meaning" of the terror alerts and its implications by so-called experts....that one misses the information unless one is seriously paying attention.
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Posted by: USA1

I am suprised that we didn't solve this problem in '91.
Bush Senior had every right to take Saddam out then. It cost the Iraqi people thousands of lives.

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Posted by: Charles

quote:
USA1 said this in post #4 :
I am suprised that we didn't solve this problem in '91.
Bush Senior had every right to take Saddam out then. It cost the Iraqi people thousands of lives.


US lacked UN mandate to oust Saddam. The UN didn't approve. The UN would have been angry. We wanted to keep the UN happy.

The UN....
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Posted by: MrJukoVette

As i said already, countries opposed to this Iraq war are ones directly interested in keeping Saddam in power, economically or politically. This is common sense - no matter how many times it is spinned, inverted, put upside and down and back, iraqis are free now and the US was the only country actually interested in free Iraq.

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Posted by: oneofpeace

Amazing... desperaton is definately in the air. All I know if Bush don't find those WMD by next November (Is that enough time?) he's toast.

Meanwhile, you guys keep searching for evidence 9 months after the fact. I'm sure you won't believe anything to the contrary anyway so why bother looking for something simply to stroke your incredibly over-inflated egos in the first place.

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Posted by: Curley Joe

quote:
MrJukoVette said this in post #6 :
As i said already, countries opposed to this Iraq war are ones directly interested in keeping Saddam in power, economically or politically. This is common sense - no matter how many times it is spinned, inverted, put upside and down and back, Iraqis are free now and the US was the only country actually interested in a free Iraq.


That's rather self-evident, MJ....
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Posted by: Dragonhalitosis

quote:
MrJukoVette said this in post #6 :
As i said already, countries opposed to this Iraq war are ones directly interested in keeping Saddam in power, economically or politically. This is common sense - no matter how many times it is spinned, inverted, put upside and down and back, iraqis are free now and the US was the only country actually interested in free Iraq.


Iraqi's are free eh! As in free to be rulled by the soldiers of another country this must be the 1984 definition of Freedom. Goerge Orwell is alive and well and living in Toronto.
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Posted by: Curley Joe

http://www.komo1000news.com/audio/k...heck_031003.mp3

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Posted by: Dragonhalitosis

quote:
An article in the Winter 1999 issue of Covert Action Quarterly, "Sudan: Diversionary Bombing," claims that discovery of EMPTA in the soil sample is problematic on three counts. First, "the presence of EMPTA at a given location obviously does not necessarily imply its production at that location," i.e., al-Shifa could merely have been one of many storage sites for the precursor. Second, EMPTA, while a by-product of VX production, is also a by-product of pesticide production. Third, and perhaps most telling as to the authenticity of the "soil sample," the article quotes an international weapons inspector interviewed by the New Yorker's Seymour Hersh: "[T]he chemical was unlikely to have been found, unaltered, in the ground, as the CIA had told journalists, for the simple reason that it is highly reactive and, once in the earth, would react with other chemicals and begin to break down. . . . Given EMPTA's reactive nature, . . . the possibility of isolating it from a sample taken from the soil outside [al] Shifa didn't seem credible. . . . The only way this material could be in the ground is if somebody had emptied a flask . . . and then taken a sample. That's credible."
from an article by Tom Gorman
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Posted by: Charles

quote:
Dragonhalitosis said this in post #9 :


Iraqi's are free eh! As in free to be rulled by the soldiers of another country this must be the 1984 definition of Freedom. Goerge Orwell is alive and well and living in Toronto.


Quite right!

The Germans and JKapanese are still suffering under our yoke!

That's an excellent argument and well grounded in reality as usual.
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Posted by: Curley Joe

quote:
Charles said this in post #12 :


Quite right!

The Germans and Japanese are still suffering under our yoke!

That's an excellent argument and well grounded in reality as usual.


Indeed!
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Posted by: Charles

quote:
Dragonhalitosis said this in post #11 :
from an article by Tom Gorman


Great post. Certainly looks like you can't beat it with a stick. It just ooozes legitimacy.

On the other hand, it might just be a play on our ignorance.

One question:

Why would EMPTA residue from "pesticides" be found at an aspirin factory?

Or do they make medicine with pesticides in Africa?
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Posted by: Dragonhalitosis

Appearantly it was found 60 feet from a pharmacetical factory, perhaps you should have read the first article before replying.


oh and however bad its 'legitimacy' is it doesn't reliy mostly on supposition smoke and mirrors and claims the opposition is keeping silent Nor does it relie on the pseudo science of taking a soil sample 60 feet from a pharmacetical factory to use as the 'proof' to kill people. before you fling mud 'Surly Joe' perhaps you ought to check you aren't standing up to your neck in the frog pond.

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Posted by: Charles

quote:
Appearantly it was found 60 feet from a pharmacetical factory, perhaps you should have read the first article before replying.


Oh. 60' huh. Sounds like pretty dangerous stuff to keep around a medicine factory.

quote:
oh and however bad its 'legitimacy' is it doesn't reliy mostly on supposition smoke and mirrors and claims the opposition is keeping silent Nor does it relie on the pseudo science of taking a soil sample 60 feet from a pharmacetical factory to use as the 'proof' to kill people. before you fling mud 'Surly Joe' perhaps you ought to check you aren't standing up to your neck in the frog pond.


Damn that Bush (evil Republican)! I mean, damn that Clinton (evil democrat), ... ad vomitum...
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Posted by: Dragonhalitosis

Charles its a fact that Iraq is ruled by the Americans Japan and Gernmany are self-ruled democracies. Don't waste your time disputing the obvious I''m sure one day Iraq will be self ruled again until thenn its occpied as indeed both Japan and Germany were called 'after' their defeat.
If you know positively how that sample got conmtaminated plerase let me know. I'd like toi see some evidence if you have some and, No I don't care wiether it was the Bush or Clinton Administration who dun it. Why would I? Charles sometimes you write intelligent posts why did these two have to be so dumb?

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Posted by: Charles

quote:
Charles its a fact that Iraq is ruled by the Americans Japan and Gernmany are self-ruled democracies. Don't waste your time disputing the obvious I''m sure one day Iraq will be self ruled again until thenn its occpied as indeed both Japan and Germany were called 'after' their defeat.


Sorry, it seemed you were insinuating some stereotypical negative connotations to US involvement in Iraq - you know - the anti american evil empire pillaging kind of stuff. I guess you meant it in a positive light.

quote:
Why would I? Charles sometimes you write intelligent posts why did these two have to be so dumb?


Um.

I guess I'm tired.
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Posted by: Dragonhalitosis

ok I'm feeling Craabby Charles Sorry for the insults have a good Christmas!

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Posted by: oneofpeace

Chuck, you're beginning to sound just like Bush now. Everything they find, every move that Saddam made was construed to be guilt.

Bush - "We saw remote planes, they must be used for chemical warfare" NOT!!
Bush - "We see trailers from our satelites. They must be mobile bio labs" NOT!!
Bush - "He must have them (WMD) under his palaces, check there!!!" NOT!!
Bush - "We have dozens of suspected sites. We'll find some there too" NOT!!
Bush - "Well, I have clear and convincing evidence anyway SH has WMD" NOT!!
Bush - "From Satelites, we see a yellowy substance in his toilet, must be nerve gas" Ok a little humor here

Charles - "60 near a pharmacutical factory? Sound like he has tons of WMD to me" NOT!!!


Bush tried way too hard to prove a case with absolutely nothing to show while trying. Now some take comfort because after 8.5 months, we finally caught Saddam. "Wow this certainly changes everything!!!! Bush was right!!!"

I just never seen such a bunch of non thinkers in my life. Absolutely no ability to see the obvious.

Well all the accusations are nothing that's showing up in any reports Bush is asserting. Now with all of your articles "proving" Saddam had ties or WMD, why don't Bush point to these?

Wait!!!...here's a thought. Maybe, just maybe it's even too shabby for Bush to even assert!!!

You guys been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh.

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Posted by: Charles

quote:
Bush - "We saw remote planes, they must be used for chemical warfare" NOT!!


Um. OK. Were they properly declared? Or did we find them?

quote:
Bush - "We see trailers from our satelites. They must be mobile bio labs" NOT!!


Oh - right! Those were used for blowing up birthday balloons. I see now!

quote:
Bush - "He must have them (WMD) under his palaces, check there!!!" NOT!!


Oh I see - I guess he should have been allowed to continue violations and establish his own personal conditions for what could be inspected - good argument!

quote:
Bush - "We have dozens of suspected sites. We'll find some there too" NOT!!


Our job was to go in and verify because Saddam didn't comply. I'm glad we didn't find anything. If had them he probably would have used them.

quote:
Bush - "Well, I have clear and convincing evidence anyway SH has WMD" NOT!!


Yup! Saddam tricked the whole world - all mainstream US and UNSC politicians found him in material breach.

quote:
Charles - "60 near a pharmacutical factory? Sound like he has tons of WMD to me" NOT!!!


I'm not sure why that very unique substance was found near a pharma factory. I'm not sure what else led them to believe the Sudanese were up to something in that facility. Maybe Clinton just wanted to kill some babies?

I'm really not sure why you are convinced that the US, or any intelligence services for that matter, would ever disclose everything to the public. It seems to me that could put their sources in jeapardy.

quote:
Bush tried way too hard to prove a case with absolutely nothing to show while trying. Now some take comfort because after 8.5 months, we finally caught Saddam. "Wow this certainly changes everything!!!! Bush was right!!!"


The resolutions were enforced. Iraq will now be certified - or already has been certified - as compliant with UNSC resolutions. Too bad Saddam turned it into such a fiasco over so many years. If he hadn't spent the better part of the 90's deliberately deceiving inspectors and defying the UN, all of this could have been avoided. Go figure...

quote:
I just never seen such a bunch of non thinkers in my life. Absolutely no ability to see the obvious.


What? That Saddam dug his own grave by being an a$$hole? I find it hard to feel sorry for him.

quote:
Well all the accusations are nothing that's showing up in any reports Bush is asserting. Now with all of your articles "proving" Saddam had ties or WMD, why don't Bush point to these?


Saddam definitely had WMD. I don't think anyone is disturbed enough to deny that.

quote:
Wait!!!...here's a thought. Maybe, just maybe it's even too shabby for Bush to even assert!!!


Um. Maybe.

But honestly it will be interesting to see what he has to say in January address. I know many of you would feel better if we found WMD, - but I still don't think it would change your opinion about the evil USA and its stupid citizens.

Under all the pressure to disclose everything and lay everything out on the table for all to see, I hope the administration and intelligence services have the courage not to pander to populist garbage and don't disclose anything that could put people or sources at risk.

I am perfectly content to let Bush do his job. On election day I will hold him accountable.

quote:
You guys been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh.


The truth is I never have. I've never heard the guy. What station is he on?
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Posted by: oneofpeace

quote:
Um. OK. Were they properly declared? Or did we find them?


So Saddam had to report little airplanes too? And because he didn't, naturally they're used to spray chemical weapons!!! Talk about speculation. When they were pointed out, he let them inspect it. They said the planes wing span was too long and this required him to report it. I'm sure Saddam measured the wings on his drone aircraft. What they were a foot over maybe?


quote:
If had them he probably would have used them.


Finally something we agree upon!!! So there was no actual proof he had them in the first place then if he never had them right? So what justifies our invasion now? Wait don't tell me .....resolution 1441 right?

quote:
Yup! Saddam tricked the whole world - all mainstream US and UNSC politicians found him in material breach.


Wasn't that resolution written before Saddam let inspectors back into his country? So Saddam was complying right? But you will say, he wasn't cooperating. That's not the report from Blix. Blix asked for more time to get organized and more inspectors in the country and Bush said no. Now why did you think he did that? Glad you asked!! He did it because he didn't want any more reports out of Baghdad that said what Bush already knew, they couldn't find anything. It would have made his case harder now wouldn't it.

I have to leave work now, I don't have time to finish, but you seem to simply dismiss any notion that the US overplayed the Iraq problem to invade that country. Tell me Chuck, what would it have hurted to let Blix have what he asked for? Did we have to get Saddam before March 21 or something because he had a terrorist plot in the works?

I'll check ya later Chuck. Happy Holidays fella if I don't
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Posted by: skool me

Vote for Bush, again...??? I guess it just hits a nerve hearing those words out loud. Some of you ate content with Bush "doing his job"? My goodness... I will continue to vote democratic unless I see someone with real leadership that will lead my country to a safer, economically better place.

What am I thinking.. obviously most of you ar republican and pro Bush because you can afford to be home talking trash on "in review". Those of you who are hard workers/laborers wouldn't be able to afford to talk trash on this forum all day and night. At least during working hours.

Guys like Oneofpeace is on all day at work trying to talk sense into the brainless and doesn't know he is wasting his time. He, I understand is trying to gain knowledge, get some of you to listen but dang.. give it a rest (democrats). There is no takling to these cats.. They are the very ones voting for Bush (again).. We are doomed to this cult...lol

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Posted by: MrJukoVette

ahahhahah skool me poor labour guy, vote for communists, equality for everybody.

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