| Posted by: ryanvii | | i'm sick of republicans using saddams human rights violations, murdering, and torturing as a reason to invade iraq.
what about china? what about turkey? if the US is going to play that card, it better go after all the countries violating human rights.
the truth is the US can overlook human rights violations if the US has other interest in the country. for example, china. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: oneofpeace | | Bush just sold Taiwan up the river because he believes that China can help him with N. Korea.
But certainly this is right in line with his bratty behavior. He snubbed Blair first on the British prisoners in Cuba, then the told Blair he couldn't visit his own troops in Iraq simply because he wants to do it first. This is how he repays loyalty.
Why doesn't Bush want to visit Afghanistan though? Not enough political headlines there. Iraq suits his politcal re-election agenda, but that won't be long lived if he don't find some weapons over there. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: USA1 | | peace,
You sound just like a Kerry fan. Right?
I'll put it this way. If you don't or won't vote, keep your yap shut becuae you have absolutley no right to complain about his government. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: USA1 | | ryan,
Which of those other countries tryed to assasinate our president? | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: oneofpeace | | Sound like you're trying to impose your will here USA, but I'm not surprised you're coming to your own knee-jerk conclusions about whether I'm for Kerry or not.
See in all your little two dimensional minds you believe everything is black & white. If you disagree with Bush you must be leftist, democrate, Kerry fan, communist, terrorist supporters, etc. See that is the extent of you all's insight. It's no wonder you can't see your on nose on your own faces.
Since it's obvious to figure your pattern of thinking I know you're for Bush next go round. You're predictable, just like the rest of your little buddies. I bet most of you have ever voted for a democrat in your entire lives. In as much it proves your incredibly limited insight and throught processes. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Curley Joe | |
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ryanvii said this in post #1 :
i'm sick of republicans using saddams human rights violations, murdering, and torturing as a reason to invade iraq.
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What you're 'sick of' is irrelevant. Like President Bush said: "You can debate all you want but I'm going to do my job the best I can to make this nation safer."
55% of Americans would vote for Bush
37% of Americans would vote for Dean
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| Posted by: skool me | | Peace.. you certainly have your hands full...lol Inspite of the majority of "simple minds" on this forum. I support most of your beliefs. Anything I read that I don't agree with, I just try to gather more information and if still I don't agree, I agree to not agree.
Most of these guys are just "simple minded". They've been thinking one way their intire life and that way it will remain. The members of this forum are a great representation of the world and that is precisely why we are in the perdicament we are in today...
It is a losing battle, you will not be able to get through...lol But it could be worse, the nation could be run my women....lol I guess that sounds very shovenistic but, what the hey.. I am a old fashioned kinda guy and luckily for me I have an old fashioned kinda gal... | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: ryanvii | |
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USA1 said this in post #4 :
ryan,
Which of those other countries tryed to assasinate our president? |
This dictates when the US inforces human rights violations? Attempts on the presidents life, slave labor work force (China), one of the biggest markets in the world (China), one of the biggests armed forces in the world (Turkey).
So it's true, the US had ulterior motives in determining to invade Iraq, not just human rights violations.
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Curley Joe said this in post #6 :
What you're 'sick of' is irrelevant. Like President Bush said: "You can debate all you want but I'm going to do my job the best I can to make this nation safer."
55% of Americans would vote for Bush
37% of Americans would vote for Dean |
It may be irrelevant, but it is hypocritical for the US to invade Iraq for human rights violations and not others.
I'm guessing the poll was taken by the National Review.
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| Posted by: Charles | |
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| Most of these guys are just "simple minded". They've been thinking one way their intire life and that way it will remain. The members of this forum are a great representation of the world and that is precisely why we are in the perdicament we are in today... |
You are quite right. I am simple minded and you are deeply insightful. I have never had an original thought my entire life. We are stupid, you are smart.
Other than misguided alien and/or globalization conspiracy theories, and hindsight criticism, I have yet to see cogent real world arguments or plans that could serve as alternative.
Do you see the difference? Do you have some magical alternative plan up your sleeve that you are hiding for some special occasion? Why don't the elite geniouses on the left enlighten the rest of us poor sobs?
We are waiting patiently.
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| Posted by: oneofpeace | | You wouldn't know the light if we tied you to a chair and shined it in your face Chuck. Honestly Charles I think you're not that ridgit, maybe not as bad as I am  but I do not think that every report that comes out about Saddam is simply true. It can't be or Bush wouldn't be searching today for it.
It's almost like, they want to prove it so badly that they accuse him on every thing he does. Never mind if it's not true or not, the mere accusations seem to be enough for people to jump on board despite evidence lacking.
We point to 15 yrs ago when Saddam gassed the Kurds to justify a sudden invasion in 2003. I'm sorry, I don't believe the US is wrong in everything we do, but this is a no brainer to me. We were doing fine until Bush tried to squeeze political gain out of Iraq. This is where I believe we too a huge step backward.
Just as clear as Afghanistan was when we bombed it, so Iraq should have been before the world. Our path has to be clear, not rampid, or else we will not win anything but a few cheers from biased Americans that we bombed another "third world unintelligent nation", and this is exactly how they are largely seen here. | | Reply To this Message
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| Posted by: Charles | |
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| but I do not think that every report that comes out about Saddam is simply true. |
I think the media is usually about 35-40% accurate.
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| It's almost like, they want to prove it so badly that they accuse him on every thing he does. Never mind if it's not true or not, the mere accusations seem to be enough for people to jump on board despite evidence lacking. |
You mean Bush?
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| We point to 15 yrs ago when Saddam gassed the Kurds to justify a sudden invasion in 2003. |
Your record is skipping again. I think Bush and rest of world are pretty content that Saddam is a butcher - not just for what he did in '80's. I don't think anyone is contesting that the brutality he showed the Kurds, was somehow mitigated or decreased. Its the same brutality that oppressed and killed the Shia, and tortured anyone who disagreed with him. It is the same Saddam. He didn't change. He was the problem. He had to go.
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| I'm sorry, I don't believe the US is wrong in everything we do, but this is a no brainer to me. |
You have the right to a "no brainer" opinion.
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| We were doing fine until Bush tried to squeeze political gain out of Iraq. This is where I believe we too a huge step backward. |
Is this another "no brainer" conclusion...?
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| Just as clear as Afghanistan was when we bombed it, so Iraq should have been before the world. |
If you forget, the same people were saying the same bad things about Bush and the horrible casualties and destruction... You forgot. I guess its your "no brainer" memory.
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| Our path has to be clear. |
Now you sound like Bush! But I guess it rules out any dem candidates for you - except maybe Lieberman.
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| or else we will not win anything but a few cheers from biased Americans that we bombed another "third world unintelligent nation", and this is exactly how they are largely seen here. |
Sometimes I wonder how your mind - and the sparks and neurons within it, became so completely divorced from external sources that could stimulate thought.
Who in the world is cheering that we bombed another 3rd world country? You have succumbed to your own garbage propaganda. For you, the simplistic label "pro-war" somehow gets converted into a literal meaning that people like me are "pro" or positive about war and death and destruction. I won't bother explaining it to you. You need to climb that hill on your own.
The unintelligent part is absurd. One key to our strategy is the fact that Iraq is one of the most highly educated secular states in ME. I think its the left that paints them is dumb primitives who if given the option, would strongly prefer to live in the dark ages and can't handle democracy. I believe that the majority of Iraqi's would opt for a less oppressive and more liberal/progressive form of government.
We shall see.
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| Posted by: oneofpeace | |
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| I think the media is usually about 35-40% accurate. |
I don’t give them that much credit, but ok
So you think everyone is accusing Bush at every turn huh? Bush started this by accusing Sadddam of everything. The man couldn’t flush the toilet without Bush accusing him of hiding evidence. This is exactly why every thing Bush said was chemical or bio related turned out to be the opposite. But still, that don’t matter to you now does it?
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| Your record is skipping again. I think Bush and rest of world are pretty content that Saddam is a butcher - not just for what he did in '80's. |
So are you saying this is why Bush invaded Iraq simply because Saddam was a butcher? Ok, here’s my skipping record again because obviously you’re either not listening or ignoring it. Do you think Chuck that there are other dictators with just as bad a record on butchering and killing as Saddam? And if so, where is the US outrage about them?
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quote:
We were doing fine until Bush tried to squeeze political gain out of Iraq. This is where I believe we too a huge step backward.
Is this another "no brainer" conclusion...? |
Absolutely it is, only I guess you’d have to have a brain to see it.
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| If you forget, the same people were saying the same bad things about Bush and the horrible casualties and destruction... |
Chuck, there’s no way Bush got all the static he’s getting about this Iraq war. That’s just misleading. The only one’s that were complaining were mostly Muslims. The UN wasn’t largely against it like they are with Iraq, and most people in the world saw us as not only defending ourselves rightfully so, but fighting the terrorism we said we were.
Out of the clear in comes Iraq as an issue. Then after a year Bush makes a case for 9/11 and Saddam. This was a “no brainer”. Anyone could see exactly what Bush’s intentions were, all except you republicans that simply support because he’s republican. He didn’t make his case, and after 9 months, he’s still not making it. While you all sit back and wait for Bush to find evidence to justify this invasion, meanwhile you all want to justify it by saying Saddam was a butcher. I guess you all need something to say because as of now, there’s nothing legitimate to say about it.
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| Who in the world is cheering that we bombed another 3rd world country? You have succumbed to your own garbage propaganda. |
Have you been reading these forums Chuck? I mean you haven’t seen the cheering and hurrays coming from your counterparts? Garbage propaganda huh? Well let’s take a look at this.
I said Bush never had any evidence. He never gave the inspectors a chance, and after searching for 9 months for weapons he already said he had proof of, you say I’m spreading “garbage propaganda”.
You on the other hand say that Bush was right to invade because Saddam was a butcher and treated his people horrible. Saddam had WMD (15 yrs ago) and that proves he COULD have had them when Bush invaded, and Bush invaded simply because Saddam wouldn’t comply. And lets not forget the infamous resolution 1441.
But he did comply now didn’t he? He let inspectors back into that country. The UN hadn’t been there for a while and asked for time to get inspectors there and to organize a more effective search, but Bush said “no”. This after initial reports with the few inspectors they had there said the drones, palaces, suspected sites, etc has shown no signs of bio or chemical weapons. This after analyzing these places mentioned.
You still say Bush was right, I say he was wrong. Now I’m succumbing to my own “garbage propaganda”?
INCREDIBLE!!!!
And you think my brain needs some work? Something is working upstairs here. But as for yourself Chuck, I’m not too sure buddy.
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| Posted by: Charles | |
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| So you think everyone is accusing Bush at every turn huh? Bush started this by accusing Sadddam of everything. The man couldn’t flush the toilet without Bush accusing him of hiding evidence. This is exactly why every thing Bush said was chemical or bio related turned out to be the opposite. But still, that don’t matter to you now does it? |
Please answer: Has it ever been proven that Saddam had a pattern of deliberately lying about his weapons programs? Please list the countries that believed Saddam could be taken at his word.
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| So are you saying this is why Bush invaded Iraq simply because Saddam was a butcher? Ok, here’s my skipping record again because obviously you’re either not listening or ignoring it. Do you think Chuck that there are other dictators with just as bad a record on butchering and killing as Saddam? And if so, where is the US outrage about them? |
Sorry but you are a blockhead. Not only can you not put the overall issues in context, but you can't even put my direct responses to YOU in the context of your own posts. you said that we justified operation because Saddam gassed Kurds 15 years ago - implying that's not a good reason because much time has passed - implying that Saddam somehow changed. One of the reasons we ousted Saddam becasue of his brutal nature and I see no evidence that he has become a decent fellow.
You can't even follow your own discourse, let alone the big issues on the table.
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| Chuck, there’s no way Bush got all the static he’s getting about this Iraq war. That’s just misleading. The only one’s that were complaining were mostly Muslims. The UN wasn’t largely against it like they are with Iraq, and most people in the world saw us as not only defending ourselves rightfully so, but fighting the terrorism we said we were. |
You have a selective memory.
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| Out of the clear in comes Iraq as an issue. |
Do I have to dig out and repost all the primary source quotes from Dems throughout 90's who used exact same rhetoric? I know you read them already and can't dispute them so stop obfuscating.
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| all except you republicans that simply support because he’s republican. |
What makes you think I'm a republican? I am conservative on foreign policy, but I would support Clinton on this. I did support Clinton as president. I think its pretty stupid in fact to trash commander in chief for partisan reasons during time of war - especially when it contradicts everything mainstream dems supported rhetorically when they were in office.
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| He didn’t make his case, and after 9 months, he’s still not making it. |
Saddam made the case years ago.
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| While you all sit back and wait for Bush to find evidence to justify this invasion, |
I'm not waiting on Bush to prove anything. I concur with what he did at many levels.
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I guess you all need something to say because as of now, there’s nothing legitimate to say about it. |
You certainly have the right to an opinion. I find it funny that in light of everything Saddam did, you would question Bush's legitimacy over Saddam.
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| Have you been reading these forums Chuck? I mean you haven’t seen the cheering and hurrays coming from your counterparts? Garbage propaganda huh? Well let’s take a look at this. |
Most people are pleased, and should be, when our armed forces are engaged and we prevail over a rogue regime. We should rejoice at the capture of our enemy, etc. But you spin it that we are happy that we "bombed an unintelligent 3rd world nation." As if "we republicans" enjoy killing people. You are a cynical and shallow fringe malcontent.
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| I said Bush never had any evidence. He never gave the inspectors a chance, and after searching for 9 months for weapons he already said he had proof of, you say I’m spreading “garbage propaganda”. |
Yah - Yah. Sure. Just to put things in context for you, I recall that after first gulf war Saddam was given about 45 days to disclose all prohibited weapons and disarm. Several disclosures and disarmament exercises later, he was still in material breach. In FACT he never disclosed his bioweapon programs even though he was obligated to do so in 1991. In FACT he was caught more than 4 years later (4 years into inspections the inspectors had not found anything...) after defector revealed bioweapons program. Saddam then admitted it and disclosed some portion of it.
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| But he did comply now didn’t he? |
No he didn't. Please show me some official consensus that said he complied. I do recall Saddam trying to impose conditions (material breach), the identification of prohibited weapons systems (material breach), etc. Saddam was not in compliance - not in fact, not in spirit. The best Blix could say was that there
had been procedural improvements...
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| Posted by: oneofpeace | |
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| Please answer: Has it ever been proven that Saddam had a pattern of deliberately lying about his weapons programs? |
How did we come to that conclusion? Because the US was running even the inspection processes in Iraq. The reason why the world thought Saddam was hiding something is because he wouldn’t allow access to his palaces and other things. Did Saddam play games? Sure he did, no one is saying he didn’t. But to say Saddam had tons of WMD was purely Bush’s assertion not the UN’s. The UN had no proof, and neither did Bush.
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| Sorry but you are a blockhead. Not only can you not put the overall issues in context, …………… you said that we justified operation because Saddam gassed Kurds 15 years ago…etc |
That was just ONE of the reasons to support Bush’s invasion. That is not the sole reason I said we invaded Iraq. You need to get a new monitor. I’m sure you know exactly why I said we invaded, but here we go again. We invaded on the pretext of WMD. Everything else was to support this. All our wild accusations proved to be untrue. Yet we invade anyway. The gassing of the Kurds was in response to you and other supporters that point to it as ANOTHER REASON to get rid of the horrible oppressive Saddam Hussein.
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| You have a selective memory. |
My memory is NOT selective. Most everyone agreed to this, and certainly no one on America objected. The UN didn’t object (except some Arab states). Now maybe in your part of the world it’s different. But please provide a link that I may see this. I really would like to.[/quote}
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| What makes you think I'm a republican? |
Well maybe you aren’t but you do sound like them. You accuse me of being democrat didn’t ya?
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| Saddam made the case years ago. |
You are indeed selective in your indictments. If you cannot see Bush did everything in his power to discard evidence that would shed any light that Saddam didn’t have these weapons, then you are on the sauce.
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| I find it funny that in light of everything Saddam did, you would question Bush's legitimacy over Saddam. |
Did to whom Chuck? He certainly didn’t do ANYTHING to America. Stop acting as if this was some kind of humanity mission because it isn’t and you know it.
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| But you spin it that we are happy that we "bombed an unintelligent 3rd world nation." As if "we republicans" enjoy killing people. You are a cynical and shallow fringe malcontent. |
Again have you been reading these forums? Apparently not. There has been some very racist comments made here, especially concerning Arabs in that region. We talk like we are the justifiers of the world and we’re fighting simply for the freedoms and injustices of all. That is a supremacist attitude Chuck, and yes many here do believe that bombing a 3rd world country doesn’t mean anything anyway.
Too be continued…..
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Post-9/11 Era Forum: human rights atrocities
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